COVID-19 vaccine discussion

14 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I literally meant taking up hospital/healthcare resources.  If nobody engaged in costly and/or stupid behavior we'd collectively as a society save a fortune.

Again, nowhere in here am I arguing against taking the vaccine.  I'm saying lets quantify what the numbers say, what the harm to society is and then scale a response that's appropriate.  You know, looking at and trusting data to govern our response to this thing.  Literally, the only thing I'm saying is take care of the big stuff that's within reach before we worry about the stuff that doesn't move the envelope. 
If my wife is spending us into BK b/c she has a $2,000 car note per month and can't stop buying $1,000 hand bags and shoes that's where I'm focusing all my energy and attention fixing, not getting her to get rid of her Starbucks habit.  

Stop comparing a fucking pandemic to purses. Jesus fucking christ, how are you still so dense about this?

And Texas home games? 

If these dipshits cost us another football season I’m starting a crowdsourcing campaign for all of em.

Jury Duty in MoCo last Monday.
57 Jurors personally checked in by the court clerk.
Court clerk had Covid.
Will be interesting to see the numbers from that.

It’s Montgomery Country. Half the jurors probably had active COVID cases.

14 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I literally meant taking up hospital/healthcare resources.  If nobody engaged in costly and/or stupid behavior we'd collectively as a society save a fortune.

Again, nowhere in here am I arguing against taking the vaccine.  I'm saying lets quantify what the numbers say, what the harm to society is and then scale a response that's appropriate.  You know, looking at and trusting data to govern our response to this thing.  Literally, the only thing I'm saying is take care of the big stuff that's within reach before we worry about the stuff that doesn't move the envelope. 
If my wife is spending us into BK b/c she has a $2,000 car note per month and can't stop buying $1,000 hand bags and shoes that's where I'm focusing all my energy and attention fixing, not getting her to get rid of her Starbucks habit.  

The financial costs, and strain on a necessary thing -- our healthcare apparatus -- is brutal.  That alone makes this a huge national crisis.

But layer onto the incredible mental toll.  Some of the people most important to our continued health, survival, and growth as a society are being subjected to some traumatic bullshit.  I encourage you to talk to someone who is actually involved in front-line medical care (shit, just listen to @trauma babe right here in River City).  Talk to my hospital chaplain friends.  The PTSD they are experiencing is fucking wartime level shit.  Some of them are breaking.  Some are leaving the profession altogether in the name of their own mental well-being. 

And teachers aren't in a much better spot.  How would you like it if the governor of your state effectively told you that not only does he not give a shit about your safety, he will actively and maliciously BLOCK any efforts to protect your health and safety, because fuck you?

Want to serve on a school board, because you believe in serving the community and its children?  Enjoy being subjected to hateful attacks, threats on your life, and harassment everywhere you go because you dared even SUGGEST that maybe kids should wear masks during this current surge.

You thought this country was broken BEFORE COVID?   Dude, that was the goddamned Phony War.  What we've done to ourselves and our national psyche during this crisis is the fucking fall of continental Europe.  And as we stand on the beaches at Dunkirk, Abbott and DeSantis are signing orders prohibiting private boats from saving us.  Our mental self-destruction as a nation is ACCELERATING.

That's why things like 1) getting vaccinated and 2) oh, I don't know, giving 1/1000th of a fuck about other human beings are really, really important now.  But then, that ship has sailed.  "Fuck you, I enjoy your suffering" is our national motto now.  Might as well embrace it.  And here's the part you aren't going to like -- now that we've committed to it, it's time to return the favor.  Don't want to get vaccinated?  Fine.  Then everywhere we can pull it off, we should fucking prohibit your participation in public life.  We should shame you and ostracize you at every turn.  We should use tax dollars to have a guy with a bullhorn follow you everywhere you go, just hollering "in front of me is a selfish fucking moron!" repeatedly.

Cruelty and suffering is the game now.  Fine.  So be it.  Time for all to play.

Stop comparing a fucking pandemic to purses. Jesus fucking christ, how are you still so dense about this?

No analogies allowed! Wildcat the thread cop has spoken!

You’re funny. Are you on blood pressure medicine?

2 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

No analogies allowed! Wildcat the thread cop has spoken!

You’re funny. Are you on blood pressure medicine?

Are you still eating horse paste?

20 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Stop comparing a fucking pandemic to purses. Jesus fucking christ, how are you still so dense about this?

How are you being dense? I'm using that as an illustration and a call for literally picking the low hanging fruit and dealing with shit that moves the needle first from a policy perspective. 

Rather than focusing on the intransigent or the stuff that will have little effect on public policy we should focus on the biggest issues where we are most likely to get the most bang for our buck in whatever we decide to do. 

Rather than try to berate those who have successfully recovered from Covid and don't want to get a shot focus instead on people that are open to the idea but have some manner of bullshit getting in the way that's stopped them from getting the shot and remove that bullshit or provide an incentive that makes them change their mind.

Everyone should be vaccinated.  Everyone won't be vaccinated.  We don't need 100% vaccination to succeed as a society, something like 60 or 70 percent is probably good enough (especially when combined with those who have naturally immunity and have recovered.  So lets figure out the easiest way to get there with the most people, first, and do that before we worry about people hard baked into their opposition that were we to get them vaccinated (already sick and recovered) we would see very little benefit in doing so. 

You know- like any rational response to any problem would probably be.  Deal with the cheapest, easiest and most efficient thing first.   Then, go from there after the harder to get stuff if such a thing is still necessary.  

 

40 minutes ago, midtown said:

43 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

Walmart is actually requiring all of their corp employees to be vaccinated to come back to the office.  Obviously, that doesn't apply to their retail teams

I meant customers

I'm aware, I just thought it was surprising that a corporation based in Arkansas would do that

Brisket getting blackpilled.  Expect to see his new MLM/cult come out any day.

35 minutes ago, F250 said:

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The strain on the healthcare system and the virus mutating are the biggest societal costs. Both of these are being driven by the unvaccinated.

 

Correct. Which is why I'm a vaccine proponent and always have been. And got it the moment I was eligible.  And have never argued against it. And have told everyone in my orbit that I've ever had a conversation with to get it.  Because it works and it's literally the magic bullet to end this thing.

Literally all I've said is treat majors like majors and minors like minors. Unvaccinated olds/people with comorbidities are the major-est of the major.  Unvaccinated people that have never had Covid and have no comorbidities and are young and healthy are a big deal and a step down in priority.  Unvaccinated Covid recovery cases and small children, statistically, are the least important thing to worry about.  Focus on the majors first and then move along the line from there- while always doing whatever is easiest and most effective at any point in time. 

Is this a problem we are trying to solve or an argument we are trying to win? If it's a problem we are trying to solve then we spend little time or effort on stuff that doesn't move the needle. 

7 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Correct. Which is why I'm a vaccine proponent and always have been. And got it the moment I was eligible.  And have never argued against it. And have told everyone in my orbit that I've ever had a conversation with to get it.  Because it works and it's literally the magic bullet to end this thing.

Literally all I've said is treat majors like majors and minors like minors. Unvaccinated olds/people with comorbidities are the major-est of the major.  Unvaccinated people that have never had Covid and have no comorbidities and are young and healthy are a big deal and a step down in priority.  Unvaccinated Covid recovery cases and small children, statistically, are the least important thing to worry about.  Focus on the majors first and then move along the line from there- while always doing whatever is easiest and most effective at any point in time. 

Is this a problem we are trying to solve or an argument we are trying to win? If it's a problem we are trying to solve then we spend little time or effort on stuff that doesn't move the needle. 

Because we are capable of focusing only on one thing at at time.

6 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Unvaccinated olds/people with comorbidities are the major-est of the major.  Unvaccinated people that have never had Covid and have no comorbidities and are young and healthy are a big deal and a step down in priority.  Unvaccinated Covid recovery cases and small children, statistically, are the least important thing to worry about. 

Unvaccinated olds/people with comorbidities: This has been a priority for a while now.

Unvaccinated people that have never had Covid and have no comorbidities and are young: This is the group driving Delta and contributing to all our current problems. This group needs to be the biggest priority.

Unvaccinated Covid recovery cases and small children, statistically, are the least important thing to worry about: Depends on if they spread it to the group above. We will find out once school starts.

 

 

1 minute ago, F250 said:

Unvaccinated olds/people with comorbidities: This has been a priority for a while now.

Unvaccinated people that have never had Covid and have no comorbidities and are young: This is the group driving Delta and contributing to all our current problems. This group needs to be the biggest priority.

Unvaccinated Covid recovery cases and small children, statistically, are the least important thing to worry about: Depends on if they spread it to the group above. We will find out once school starts.

 

 

If they do it will come as a surprise and a very nasty game changer in this whole thing. I pray that they do not or we are in some seriously deep shit with no good way out. If that’s the case and if the outcomes start being significantly worse for those groups that will give us almost no way to run society in any kind of normal ish setting. 

26 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Everyone should be vaccinated.  Everyone won't be vaccinated.  We don't need 100% vaccination to succeed as a society, something like 60 or 70 percent is probably good enough (especially when combined with those who have naturally immunity and have recovered. 

Herd immunity threshold is a function of R-0.  With delta's transmissibility, we are looking at somethign more like 90%.

Figure 1. The relation between the basic reproduction number of a virus, R0, and the proportion of the population that needs to be immunized to achieve herd immunity; note the steep rise of the curve at values of R0 between 1 and 5; three examples are shown: R0 =2, proportion = 50%, R0 = 5, proportion = 80%; R0 = 10, proportion = 90%; the inset shows a linearization of the main graph, generated by plotting P against 1/R0

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Herd immunity threshold is a function of R-0.  With delta's transmissibility, we are looking at somethign more like 90%.

Would that be one of the highest necessities ever?  
I’m assuming other variants that come later wouldn’t necessarily need that high a vaccination rate? If/when delta burns through its peak and subsides?  

Edited August 9, 2021 by Wulaw Horn

13 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Would that be one of the highest necessities ever?  
I’m assuming other variants that come later wouldn’t necessarily need that high a vaccination rate? If/when delta burns through its peak and subsides?  

If Delta has as high a R factor as thought......it will remain present, and will continue to spread until it burns through enough to get to 90%+ (combination of vaxxed and previously infected).  This is our concern, dude.  In terms of transmissibility, we are now dealing with pretty close to the worst case scenario.

@Brisketexan Let's hope we get through the burn through quicker then numbers published out of India. 

India:

Estimated start of Delta increase to peak is Feb. 28 (perhaps a few days earlier) to May 8th is 70 days.

 

 

U.S. chart:

July 5th could be considered the beginning of the rise of Delta. 70 days takes us to Sept. 13th but we are have a much higher rate of vaccination then India. I hope we are very close to peaking and watching the Delta #'s fall of a cliff soon (I'd really like that tweet referenced earlier to be right about peak on 8/11). The U.K. peaked and fell off from high after ~32 days with 58% fully vaccinated to our 50% according to NYT. 

 

14 minutes ago, Telegraph_it said:

 

U.S. chart:

July 5th could be considered the beginning of the rise of Delta. 70 days takes us to Sept. 13th but we are have a much higher rate of vaccination then India. I hope we are very close to peaking and watching the Delta #'s fall of a cliff soon (I'd really like that tweet referenced earlier to be right about peak on 8/11). The U.K. peaked and fell off from high after ~32 days with 58% fully vaccinated to our 50% according to NYT. 

 

We talked about this a little bit last week.  It should probably be noted that when the UK began its increase with Delta in late May, they were only around 37% vaxed, while the US was up at ~48% when our current rise began around the 4th of July.

The UK increased their vaccination rate more rapidly than we have during the course of the spike, but initially they were about 10% behind the US when Delta began doing its thing in each country, respectively.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by utee94

2 minutes ago, utee94 said:

We talked about this a little bit last week.  It should probably be noted that when the UK began its increase with Delta in late May, they were only around 37% vaxed, while the US was up at ~48% when our current rise began around the 4th of July.

The UK increased their vaccination rate more rapidly than we have during the course of the spike, but initially they were about 10% behind the US when Delta began doing its thing in each country, respectively.

 

 

That 48% is total percentage of actual population, not Vax eligible, correct?  If the kids don't really spread it in particular that's got to be like having an extra 12-15% in our back pocket. 

5 minutes ago, utee94 said:

We talked about this a little bit last week.  It should probably be noted that when the UK began its increase with Delta in late May, they were only around 37% vaxed, while the US was up at ~48% when our current rise began around the 4th of July.

The UK increased their vaccination rate more rapidly than we have during the course of the spike, but initially they were about 10% behind the US when Delta began doing its thing in each country, respectively.

 

 

That is a good point. Another variable that makes drawing parallels difficult is our vaccinations are not equal across a much large geographic area. I'm sure the U.K. has areas where vaccination rates are much lower but when Texas alone is almost 3x the size U.K. the spread will behave different.

44 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That 48% is total percentage of actual population, not Vax eligible, correct?  If the kids don't really spread it in particular that's got to be like having an extra 12-15% in our back pocket. 

Yes that's measured against total population and it's also the fully vaxed number.  

 

 

8 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

If you’re in the ER or the hospital, you may not get your drink or your warm blanket in a timely manner while we are off tending to critical patients

@trauma babe WHERE’S MY JELLO?!?!?

2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Would that be one of the highest necessities ever?  
I’m assuming other variants that come later wouldn’t necessarily need that high a vaccination rate? If/when delta burns through its peak and subsides?  

Measles is that high. That’s why we can’t eradicate it. Fucking hippies and now right wing nutters. Should have been the next extinct virus

29 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

 

 

@trauma babe WHERE’S MY JELLO?!?!?

The next family member who asks me to make a pot of coffee at 4:30 in the morning is going to get some death eyes. 

8 hours ago, XYZ said:

Ivermectin has been around for a long time and literally billions of doses have been given to humans over the years.

The only published studies on ivermectin are retrospective case control studies of mild cases. A couple show decrease in duration of symptoms of a few days. 
 

There is at least one planned blinded placebo controlled prospective trial for severe cases. We will see

Ivermectin definitely inhibits RNA replication of SARS-2 (and many other viruses) in vitro, but only at concentrations that represent several multiples of the fda approved dose. So      if I were to write an off label script for ivermectin that is likely to help with a severe case of Covid-19 I would have to write for a super high dose, truly experimental and with no idea what short or long term side effects might occur (though I would suspect liver and or kidney toxicity at least). 

7 minutes ago, trauma babe said:

The next family member who asks me to make a pot of coffee at 4:30 in the morning is going to get some death eyes. 

Give em hell. 

5 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

I've put my gym classes on hold for the time being.  This makes me angry.

Why? You are vaxed. Live your life

 

 

Something crossed my mind today about anti-vaxxers and their alternative medication choices:  if hydroxychloriquine works, as many I think still insist, then why is ivermectin needed?  Also, is there any literature on adverse drug interactions between the two APIs, or could you say that the cocktail is a non fda approved mix with little to no understanding of long term risk?

my wife talked to a neighbor last night that said she has both, and both from prescriptions by her osteopath, because she’s scared of covid but also scared of the vaccine. She cannot enumerate why she is scared of the vaccine. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Pato del Muerto

I haven't had a real vacation in six years.  If this stupidity fucks up our trip in September, I'll have a very strong urge to bust some unvaccinated skulls.

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Why? You are vaxed. Live your life

 

 

I've made it this far without catching the fucking virus, and I'll be goddamed if I have to deal with even a minor case of it.

Why? You are vaxed. Live your life
 
 

You don't think the risks are bad for vaxxed people? Serious question. I'm also considering putting the gym on hold again.

6 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Why? You are vaxed. Live your life
 
 

You don't think the risks are bad for vaxxed people? Serious question. I'm also considering putting the gym on hold again.

I personally do not. I had a breakthrough and the only reason I know is I had to get tested after a conference to go back to the office. 
 

It is crazy how much the symptoms vary from person to person but for me it was simply a dry cough. No fever. No aches. Perhaps some fatigue. I still did cardio with no problem during my time at home. 
 

I don’t think I’m anything special. Especially seeing some very athletic people that were struck down by this disease. I’m sure the vaccine is what helped. Not that it means anything but my reaction to shot #2 was fairly bad. 

8 minutes ago, Telegraph_it said:

I personally do not. I had a breakthrough and the only reason I know is I had to get tested after a conference to go back to the office. 
 

It is crazy how much the symptoms vary from person to person but for me it was simply a dry cough. No fever. No aches. Perhaps some fatigue. I still did cardio with no problem during my time at home. 
 

I don’t think I’m anything special. Especially seeing some very athletic people that were struck down by this disease. I’m sure the vaccine is what helped. Not that it means anything but my reaction to shot #2 was fairly bad. 

Those athletic people aren't pushing their immune systems with drugs and alcohol like most of us on this board. It will be their downfall. 

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Why? You are vaxed. Live your life

 

 

because being angry gives life purpose...i guess.

28 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Why? You are vaxed. Live your life
 
 

You don't think the risks are bad for vaxxed people? Serious question. I'm also considering putting the gym on hold again.

No. Not at all. You still have robust protection from severe disease and death. If you’re vaxed go live your life.

Defense secretary has stated upon FDA approval that covid vaccinations will be mandatory for our service people.

Have been reading a few different service boards and basically the overwhelming mindset is, "if you are averse to vaccinations, you're in the wrong fucking line of work."

I personally do not. I had a breakthrough and the only reason I know is I had to get tested after a conference to go back to the office. 
 
It is crazy how much the symptoms vary from person to person but for me it was simply a dry cough. No fever. No aches. Perhaps some fatigue. I still did cardio with no problem during my time at home. 
 
I don’t think I’m anything special. Especially seeing some very athletic people that were struck down by this disease. I’m sure the vaccine is what helped. Not that it means anything but my reaction to shot #2 was fairly bad. 

Are you an MD? That's why i was asking Sawbonz.

6 hours ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

Walmart is actually requiring all of their corp employees to be vaccinated to come back to the office.  Obviously, that doesn't apply to their retail teams

They did make the mask mandatory for all employees.  It is part of their uniform, or dress code.

vaccine is just "encouraged" at this point for retail..

Edited August 10, 2021 by slorch

39 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Why? You are vaxed. Live your life
 
 

You don't think the risks are bad for vaxxed people? Serious question. I'm also considering putting the gym on hold again.

who knows? you read so many different things. I just read that the CDC says that "less than .01% of vaccinated people develop covid breakthrough cases that result in serious health complications or death". if so, the risks are very low for people that care about getting covid. 

6 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

32 minutes ago, Telegraph_it said:

I personally do not. I had a breakthrough and the only reason I know is I had to get tested after a conference to go back to the office. 
 
It is crazy how much the symptoms vary from person to person but for me it was simply a dry cough. No fever. No aches. Perhaps some fatigue. I still did cardio with no problem during my time at home. 
 
I don’t think I’m anything special. Especially seeing some very athletic people that were struck down by this disease. I’m sure the vaccine is what helped. Not that it means anything but my reaction to shot #2 was fairly bad. 

Are you an MD? That's why i was asking Sawbonz.

10 4. My bad. Enjoy Colorado. 
 

 

49 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

3 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Why? You are vaxed. Live your life
 
 

You don't think the risks are bad for vaxxed people? Serious question. I'm also considering putting the gym on hold again.

No. 

Hadn't seen this before...

"between early February and mid-July, roughly 99.5% of Texans who died from the virus were unvaccinated"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/09/austin-catastrophe-epicenter-again-pandemic

One thing that’s always bothered me. As far as I know, this is the first coronavirus pandemic in history. Which means we don’t really know how it ends. It’s actually different than the flu. Like other past cold viruses, they never really go away. It’s why in my opinion the vaccine is so important. The anti vaxxers are really fucking this up.

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2319417020300445

1 hour ago, Scheiss Meister said:

I haven't had a real vacation in six years.  If this stupidity fucks up our trip in September, I'll have a very strong urge to bust some unvaccinated skulls.

I am absolutely fucking with you, though only 2.5 years for me.  Where you going?

13 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I am absolutely fucking with you, though only 2.5 years for me.  Where you going?

Not Europe; I'm in the wrong Surly 1% for that.  We're heading to New Mexico for some cool air and rest.

Just now, Scheiss Meister said:

Not Europe; I'm in the wrong Surly 1% for that.  We're heading to New Mexico for some cool air and rest.

I have friends who have a house in New Mexico.  I think they decamped there from The Woodlands at the beginning of COVID, and I am not sure they have been back.  I like New Mexico.  Some cool stuff there.

@Sawbonz - in areas with widespread infection, when outside of one's home, would you recommend:

1. Wear a mask indoors if vaccinated?
2. Wear a mask everywhere else if unvaccinated?

Edited August 10, 2021 by washparkhorn

1 hour ago, StruggleBus said:

No. Not at all. You still have robust protection from severe disease and death. If you’re vaxed go live your life.

stop with the logic please.

48 minutes ago, Scheiss Meister said:

Not Europe; I'm in the wrong Surly 1% for that.  We're heading to New Mexico for some cool air and rest.

If you are vaxed, welcome.  We need your money…and yes it is cool in the mountains!