COVID-19 vaccine discussion

Moderna second shot 3/4
spike 771
negative previous

Great article on immunity and the necessity of a third shot: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/waning-immunity-not-crisis-right-now/619965/

Reading the last couple pages of this thread, I can't help but jump in here.  I'm a molecular biologist.  I'm happy to verify with the mods, just PM me so I don't dox myself.  I have not read most of this thread, so I apologize if what I'm about to say is redundant. 

Unless you are significantly immunocompromised, frail, living in a long term care facility, or specifically told to by your health care professional, I would encourage everyone to hold off getting a third shot for several reasons.  

1.  Efficacy against severe disease/hospitalization/death is still holding up well.  The Israeli data that a lot of the panic is based on is a statistical anomaly, discussed in detail here.  The vast majority of breakthrough cases in healthy people are very mild.  The severe cases are concentrated among those that are extremely frail and with a significant number of comorbidities. 

2.  We have no high power studies examining the safety of a third shot.  I'm at a loss why this would be publicly announced before we had clear data that this is a safe choice. 

3.  We have no idea if giving subsequent shots will reduce the efficacy of the delivery system.  We know this is happening with the adenovirus vector vaccines (J&J and Astrazeneca).The mRNA is encapsulated in a lipid shell.  It is possible that the immune system will begin to recognize this as foreign, mount a response against it, and develop memory.  This could result in every mRNA vaccine you receive going forward will become less and less effective.  This could have really significant consequences, because not only will mRNA vaccines likely continue to be the first vaccines available in future pandemics/health crises, but these also have huge potential to be very effective tools against cancer.  To me, it seems like a pretty poor tradeoff to get a third shot to prevent a cold in exchange for potentially limiting your options to respond to significant health issues down the road.

There are several ongoing studies that are examining the efficacy and safety of mixing and matching vaccines.  I'm middle aged and don't have any known health issues, so I've made up my mind to not get another mRNA shot or a J&J shot for COVID as long as something crazy doesn't happen like efficacy against severe disease plummeting.  The studies I'm waiting for revolve around Novavax.  This is a subunit vaccine (injects the spike protein directly) much like the flu shot, and it will mitigate the risks I outlined in point 3.  As long as the safety/efficacy data of using Novavax after vaccination with an mRNA vaccine looks good I will be willing to roll up my sleeve again.

And for those that haven't, I strongly suggest you read the article in my prior post.  The immune system is a highly complex and dynamic thing.  Antibodies alone do not tell the complete story of protection, so don't freak out if you don't have enough antibodies to pay off the Loch Ness monster. 

Just food for thought.  I'm happy to answer questions.           

Edited September 4, 2021 by Dontshootrude

I’m 76, obese, 4 heart stents, mild heart attack 3 years ago, aorta stenosis (not severe yet).

Second Moderna shot was March 10.

my annual physical is Sept. 30th. I was planning to ask my PCP for the booster.

What do you think?

 

1 minute ago, Armybrat said:

I’m 76, obese, 4 heart stents, mild heart attack 3 years ago, aorta stenosis (not severe yet).

Second Moderna shot was March 10.

my annual physical is Sept. 30th. I was planning to ask my PCP for the booster.

What do you think?

 

You are in the category where the risk/reward ratio begins to make sense.  Talk to your doctor to confirm. 

Thanks, will do so. My PCP is always on top of things.

in my case I am at the stage where I don’t buy green bananas.

25 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Thanks, will do so. My PCP is always on top of things.

in my case I am at the stage where I don’t buy green bananas.

The vaccine mixing studies will be important for you too.  Data out of the UK suggests that combining the Astrazeneca vaccine with the Pfizer vaccine results in a better immune response compared to sticking with the same vaccine.  You might be better served getting a J&J shot if you got an mRNA vaccine initially.   

It will be interesting to see what the vaccine recommendations and schedule looks like once we have all that data.  

Edited September 4, 2021 by Dontshootrude

56 minutes ago, Dontshootrude said:

Reading the last couple pages of this thread, I can't help but jump in here.  I'm a molecular biologist.  I'm happy to verify with the mods, just PM me so I don't dox myself.  I have not read most of this thread, so I apologize if what I'm about to say is redundant. 

Unless you are significantly immunocompromised, frail, living in a long term care facility, or specifically told to by your health care professional, I would encourage everyone to hold off getting a third shot for several reasons.  

1.  Efficacy against severe disease/hospitalization/death is still holding up well.  The Israeli data that a lot of the panic is based on is a statistical anomaly, discussed in detail here.  The vast majority of breakthrough cases in healthy people are very mild.  The severe cases are concentrated among those that are extremely frail and with a significant number of comorbidities. 

2.  We have no high power studies examining the safety of a third shot.  I'm at a loss why this would be publicly announced before we had clear data that this is a safe choice. 

3.  We have no idea if giving subsequent shots will reduce the efficacy of the delivery system.  We know this is happening with the adenovirus vector vaccines (J&J and Astrazeneca).The mRNA is encapsulated in a lipid shell.  It is possible that the immune system will begin to recognize this as foreign, mount a response against it, and develop memory.  This could result in every mRNA vaccine you receive going forward will become less and less effective.  This could have really significant consequences, because not only will mRNA vaccines likely continue to be the first vaccines available in future pandemics/health crises, but these also have huge potential to be very effective tools against cancer.  To me, it seems like a pretty poor tradeoff to get a third shot to prevent a cold in exchange for potentially limiting your options to respond to significant health issues down the road.

There are several ongoing studies that are examining the efficacy and safety of mixing and matching vaccines.  I'm middle aged and don't have any known health issues, so I've made up my mind to not get another mRNA shot or a J&J shot for COVID as long as something crazy doesn't happen like efficacy against severe disease plummeting.  The studies I'm waiting for revolve around Novavax.  This is a subunit vaccine (injects the spike protein directly) much like the flu shot, and it will mitigate the risks I outlined in point 3.  As long as the safety/efficacy data of using Novavax after vaccination with an mRNA vaccine looks good I will be willing to roll up my sleeve again.

And for those that haven't, I strongly suggest you read the article in my prior post.  The immune system is a highly complex and dynamic thing.  Antibodies alone do not tell the complete story of protection, so don't freak out if you don't have enough antibodies to pay off the Loch Ness monster. 

Just food for thought.  I'm happy to answer questions.           

Thanks for your input.

42 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Thanks, will do so. My PCP is always on top of things.

in my case I am at the stage where I don’t buy green bananas.

You haven’t bought green bananas since you returned home after valiantly serving in the War of 1812.

Moderna
2nd dose on 2/27
Spike 412
Negative for infection

I’m nonplussed by this news.

I’m still laughing that everyone bought into 350, including me. 

15 minutes ago, scottsins said:

Moderna
2nd dose on 2/27
Spike 412
Negative for infection

I’m nonplussed by this news.

I would avoid licking toilet seats until you can get your 3rd shot.

2 hours ago, Armybrat said:

I’m 276, obese, 4 heart stents, mild heart attack 3 years ago, aorta stenosis (not severe yet).

Second Moderna shot was March 10.

my annual physical is Sept. 30th. I was planning to ask my PCP for the booster.

What do you think?

 

FIFY

19 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

I would avoid licking toilet seats until you can get your 3rd shot.

Does this apply to everyone? Asking for a friend.

2 hours ago, Dontshootrude said:

3.  We have no idea if giving subsequent shots will reduce the efficacy of the delivery system.  We know this is happening with the adenovirus vector vaccines (J&J and Astrazeneca).The mRNA is encapsulated in a lipid shell.  It is possible that the immune system will begin to recognize this as foreign, mount a response against it, and develop memory. This could result in every mRNA vaccine you receive going forward will become less and less effective.  This could have really significant consequences, because not only will mRNA vaccines likely continue to be the first vaccines available in future pandemics/health crises, but these also have huge potential to be very effective tools against cancer.  To me, it seems like a pretty poor tradeoff to get a third shot to prevent a cold in exchange for potentially limiting your options to respond to significant health issues down the road.

Good post with good points.  An immune response to the viral vector is unsuprising and should be an anticipated outcome.  The russians use different vectors in their series to try to get around this.  But for the mRNA shots has there been any evidence of an immune response to the lipid nano particles?  Haven't look specifically at that question, but did look into adjuvant content and the indication was that the lipid nanoparticles stimulate the immune system like an adjuvant would, but nothing about mounting an immune response specific to the delivery vehicles.  Seems like that would have been brought out fairly early on in development. Besides all that, PFE and MRNA are using different vehicles, and if the LNPs became neutralized the formulations could be modified further. Three shot regimens are fairly standard.  You make good points to consider, but I think it overstates the risk of marginalizing the technology in the future.

 

 

Just got my blood drawn, we shall see. Second Pfizer on 2/22.

If there’s a response to the delivery vehicle, just change the delivery vehicle. 

29 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Good post with good points.  An immune response to the viral vector is unsuprising and should be an anticipated outcome.  The russians use different vectors in their series to try to get around this.  But for the mRNA shots has there been any evidence of an immune response to the lipid nano particles?  Haven't look specifically at that question, but did look into adjuvant content and the indication was that the lipid nanoparticles stimulate the immune system like an adjuvant would, but nothing about mounting an immune response specific to the delivery vehicles.  Seems like that would have been brought out fairly early on in development. Besides all that, PFE and MRNA are using different vehicles, and if the LNPs became neutralized the formulations could be modified further. Three shot regimens are fairly standard.  You make good points to consider, but I think it overstates the risk of marginalizing the technology in the future.

 

 

I'm not sure the delivery systems used by Pfizer and Moderna differ all that much.  There are very few people in the world that really understand that lipid capsule technology and I would imagine they have reached similar conclusions.  This is speculation on my part so maybe you have more knowledge than I do?  And I wouldn't bank on them being easily modifiable.  The current construction seems to be doing a good job stimulating the immune system which negates the need for an adjuvant to the vaccine, but that is exactly what has me concerned that we could see a cumulative effect that would reduce the effectiveness of the vaccines with every shot.  Adjuvants in traditional vaccines are not carrying the actual target, so they can stimulate the immune system without the worry of reduced efficacy. 

These are so new we have no data to know definitively either way, which is why I caution people to not rush out and get them when the risk of what you are vaccinating for is incredibly low.  Without more data it just isn't worth it.  

Edited September 4, 2021 by Dontshootrude

31 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

If there’s a response to the delivery vehicle, just change the delivery vehicle. 

I wish it were that simple, but the delivery was one of the biggest challenges that was worked on over the last 20 years.  We have the lipid capsules for mRNA and a couple proven adenovirus vectors that seem to work well.  You can't just wave a magic wand and come up with a new system. 

1 minute ago, Dontshootrude said:

I wish it were that simple, but the delivery was one of the biggest challenges that was worked on over the last 20 years.  We have the lipid capsules for mRNA and a couple proven adenovirus vectors that seem to work well.  You can't just wave a magic wand and come up with a new system. 

My understanding is that our antibodies are highly specific. This virus is an example, as an additional amino acid pair here or there during transcription is enough to lower the efficacy of our vaccine.  Not sure why the same wouldn’t be true for the lipids.  Buuuuuuut I’m a layperson with a recent crash course in cell-based bioassays for my job, so I’m way out over my skis by opining. 

3 hours ago, Armybrat said:

I’m 76, obese, 4 heart stents, mild heart attack 3 years ago, aorta stenosis (not severe yet).

Second Moderna shot was March 10.

my annual physical is Sept. 30th. I was planning to ask my PCP for the booster.

What do you think?

At your age, if it makes you start shooting blanks like some of the anti-vaxxers are claiming, that's a feature, not a bug.

Unless you are were Tony Randall.

39 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Good post with good points.  An immune response to the viral vector is unsuprising and should be an anticipated outcome.  The russians use different vectors in their series to try to get around this.  But for the mRNA shots has there been any evidence of an immune response to the lipid nano particles?  Haven't look specifically at that question, but did look into adjuvant content and the indication was that the lipid nanoparticles stimulate the immune system like an adjuvant would, but nothing about mounting an immune response specific to the delivery vehicles.  Seems like that would have been brought out fairly early on in development. Besides all that, PFE and MRNA are using different vehicles, and if the LNPs became neutralized the formulations could be modified further. Three shot regimens are fairly standard.  You make good points to consider, but I think it overstates the risk of marginalizing the technology in the future.

 

 

Maderna did a lot of research in this area. Multiple papers exist. This is the least of my worries. I still want to see some additional mRNA targets. Just getting boosters every 6 months is not a successful long-term strategy. Dead or attenuated virus has drawbacks as well (those drawbacks are greater than we see in mRNA vaccines). We need to find a half dozen or so good targets for antibodies and use those - delivery can be recombinant proteins, mRNA, adenovirus...nasal delivery, under the tongue, IM... I don't really GAF. The protease inhibitor will work but that is when you already contract COVID. Let's get a better vaccine.

23 hours ago, Homercles said:

Holy fuck I said 350 way up thread as a passing throw away joke in the ‘tree fiddy’ vein.  Didn’t realize y’all were gonna spool up a task force and oversight board to debate its merit, scour medical publications for ‘350’ and throw in a few obligatory Lobo novels on the subject.  Neg away.  
 

Edit:  Lobo I consider being taken even half seriously a fuckin insult here.  At surly you take everyone no serious.  

i took it serious, lied to HEB and got a Moderna shot Haha! It's the Oklahoma shitshow and I'm an idoit, mofo!!!!

 

3 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

My understanding is that our antibodies are highly specific. This virus is an example, as an additional amino acid pair here or there during transcription is enough to lower the efficacy of our vaccine.  Not sure why the same wouldn’t be true for the lipids.  Buuuuuuut I’m a layperson with a recent crash course in cell-based bioassays for my job, so I’m way out over my skis by opining. 

Full disclosure: I do not fully understand the lipid capsules.  Very few people do.  I do know they are incredibly complex and require very specific conditions to create and manufacture.  

I know more about immunology, and I know enough to know our knowledge and understanding of the system are incomplete at best. 

The mRNA vaccines have been an incredible achievement, and we are extremely fortunate everything came together like they did.  If they had been delayed just a few more months our entire health care system would have completely collapsed during the Delta wave.  To me, the risk of the known unknowns and unknown unknowns with a 3rd shot are not worth it when efficacy against severe disease remains at 90%+ for the majority of those vaccinated.    

26 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

At your age, if it makes you start shooting blanks like some of the anti-vaxxers are claiming, that's a feature, not a bug.

Unless you are were Tony Randall.

Your wimmen are safe.

20 minutes ago, Dontshootrude said:

I'm not sure the delivery systems used by Pfizer and Moderna differ all that much.  There are very few people in the world that really understand that lipid capsule technology and I would imagine they have reached similar conclusions.  This is speculation on my part so maybe you have more knowledge than I do?

No special knowledge, just was my understanding that that was the primary difference between the two was the LNP formulations

I was just able to google, but some one else is going to have to unpack this all.  Looks like one particular component is common to both (DSPC)?

 

 

From an EMA filing for MRNA:

The LNP are composed of four lipids which act as protectants and carriers of the mRNA. These are:

heptadecan-9-yl 8-((2-hydroxyethyl)(6-oxo-6-(undecyloxy)hexyl)amino)octanoate (SM-102, a custommanufactured, ionisable lipid),

1,2-dimyristoyl-rac-glycero-3-methoxypolyethylene glycol-2000 (PEG2000-DMG),

1,2-distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine (DSPC)

and cholesterol.

 

From an FDA filing for PFE/BNT:

[4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis (hexane-6,1- diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate) (UNII: 3.23 mg Lipid component

[2-(polyethylene glycol 2000)-N,Nditetradecylacetamide] (UNII: ) 0.4 mg Lipid component

DSPC [1,2-distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine] (UNII: 043IPI2M0K) 0.7 mg Lipid component

Cholesterol (UNII: 97C5T2UQ7J) 1.4 mg Lipid component

24 minutes ago, Dontshootrude said:

The mRNA vaccines have been an incredible achievement, and we are extremely fortunate everything came together like they did.  If they had been delayed just a few more months our entire health care system would have completely collapsed during the Delta wave. 

Seriously, it is close to a miracle that "we" threaded this needle.  Thirty years of research, covering both the mRNA side to the LNP side, converging to give us a path out from under the pandemic. A few months behind schedule and we might look more like India. 

1 hour ago, Dontshootrude said:

I wish it were that simple, but the delivery was one of the biggest challenges that was worked on over the last 20 years.  We have the lipid capsules for mRNA and a couple proven adenovirus vectors that seem to work well.  You can't just wave a magic wand and come up with a new system. 

If Domino's can do it...

 

Second Pfizer on 4/28. 

Positive for the Covid.

>2,500

Just got the 12yo daughters results.  >2500, nucleocapsid negative.  

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Seriously, it is close to a miracle that "we" threaded this needle.  Thirty years of research, covering both the mRNA side to the LNP side, converging to give us a path out from under the pandemic. A few months behind schedule and we might look more like India. 

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but another mRNA vaccine, CureVac, failed clinical trials.  The only significant difference between it and the Pfizer vaccine was Curevac decided to use the naturally occurring base uracil, whereas Pfizer and Moderna decided to use a psuedobase in its place that was less immunogenic.  That one change dropped the efficacy from 95% to below 40%.  It is hard to believe how lucky we have been.   

Edited September 4, 2021 by Dontshootrude

 
Question for the surl hive mind:
I've heard of people and have a few friends who have lied and said their kids were twelve to get them vaxxed. How dangerous, (il)legal, (im)moral is such a practice?
If its no big deal, how much younger than 12 are talking? a month? 6 months? a year?
Asking for me, a father of an 11 year old who lives in an area with a vax rate below national average and where nobody masks.
 

They didn’t ask for proof of my kids age. Just saying.

@High Plains Drifter To echo HiggyBaby:  So CVS and whatnot really would like to book insurance, get you in the system and all that jazz. But the vax clinics run by public health organizations just want shots in arms. They aren't planning on billing insurance, and don't have much interest pushing other services later. CVS gave me the runaround with my daughter, even demanding some proof of her age (which I don't think they can even do, but I get it: she didn't even get pierced ears until after shot #1), whereas the local public health authority amd their overwhelmed staff treated us with nice bureaucratic indifference and lack of further inquiry. 

Why do I feel like all of us celebrating >2500 are going to eventually find out that it was really <25 or something, and was an error with their machine or database?

Oh yeah, because it's 2021.

Finally got my antibody results. Got J&J in late March, levels came back at 402

20 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Just got the 12yo daughters results.  >2500, nucleocapsid negative.  

My daughter's was the same. She got the shot the first day they were available for 12-18 yo

On 9/4/2021 at 9:28 AM, Dontshootrude said:

Reading the last couple pages of this thread, I can't help but jump in here.  I'm a molecular biologist.  I'm happy to verify with the mods, just PM me so I don't dox myself.  I have not read most of this thread, so I apologize if what I'm about to say is redundant. 

Unless you are significantly immunocompromised, frail, living in a long term care facility, or specifically told to by your health care professional, I would encourage everyone to hold off getting a third shot for several reasons.  

1.  Efficacy against severe disease/hospitalization/death is still holding up well.  The Israeli data that a lot of the panic is based on is a statistical anomaly, discussed in detail here.  The vast majority of breakthrough cases in healthy people are very mild.  The severe cases are concentrated among those that are extremely frail and with a significant number of comorbidities. 

2.  We have no high power studies examining the safety of a third shot.  I'm at a loss why this would be publicly announced before we had clear data that this is a safe choice. 

3.  We have no idea if giving subsequent shots will reduce the efficacy of the delivery system.  We know this is happening with the adenovirus vector vaccines (J&J and Astrazeneca).The mRNA is encapsulated in a lipid shell.  It is possible that the immune system will begin to recognize this as foreign, mount a response against it, and develop memory.  This could result in every mRNA vaccine you receive going forward will become less and less effective.  This could have really significant consequences, because not only will mRNA vaccines likely continue to be the first vaccines available in future pandemics/health crises, but these also have huge potential to be very effective tools against cancer.  To me, it seems like a pretty poor tradeoff to get a third shot to prevent a cold in exchange for potentially limiting your options to respond to significant health issues down the road.

There are several ongoing studies that are examining the efficacy and safety of mixing and matching vaccines.  I'm middle aged and don't have any known health issues, so I've made up my mind to not get another mRNA shot or a J&J shot for COVID as long as something crazy doesn't happen like efficacy against severe disease plummeting.  The studies I'm waiting for revolve around Novavax.  This is a subunit vaccine (injects the spike protein directly) much like the flu shot, and it will mitigate the risks I outlined in point 3.  As long as the safety/efficacy data of using Novavax after vaccination with an mRNA vaccine looks good I will be willing to roll up my sleeve again.

And for those that haven't, I strongly suggest you read the article in my prior post.  The immune system is a highly complex and dynamic thing.  Antibodies alone do not tell the complete story of protection, so don't freak out if you don't have enough antibodies to pay off the Loch Ness monster. 

Just food for thought.  I'm happy to answer questions.           

Sounds like someone’s check from Pfizer got lost in the mail.

23 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

Finally got my antibody results. Got J&J in late March, levels came back at 402

On 9/4/2021 at 9:46 AM, Armybrat said:

Thanks, will do so. My PCP is always on top of things.

in my case I am at the stage where I don’t buy green bananas.

Stick around we need you Grandy.

1 hour ago, CleverNickname said:

@High Plains Drifter To echo HiggyBaby:  So CVS and whatnot really would like to book insurance, get you in the system and all that jazz. But the vax clinics run by public health organizations just want shots in arms. They aren't planning on billing insurance, and don't have much interest pushing other services later. CVS gave me the runaround with my daughter, even demanding some proof of her age (which I don't think they can even do, but I get it: she didn't even get pierced ears until after shot #1), whereas the local public health authority amd their overwhelmed staff treated us with nice bureaucratic indifference and lack of further inquiry. 

I got my 11 year old his first shot, lied they gave it to us, billed and called us back and said “well get your son’s birth date fixed with insurance or he can’t get the second.”  If we get the second before his 12th I’ll go public health/agency route. I do not give a fuck about the perceived morality. Not sending my son into a school with hordes of unvaxxed and unmasked kids without the protection available. @High Plains Drifter

Edited September 5, 2021 by troph

On 9/4/2021 at 12:19 PM, MissingInAction said:

Does this apply to everyone? Asking for a friend.

over 2500 lick-away...

On 9/4/2021 at 11:46 AM, Liquor and Poker said:

I’m still laughing that everyone bought into 350, including me. 

350 is the new 42.

On 9/4/2021 at 8:24 AM, Dontshootrude said:

Great article on immunity and the necessity of a third shot: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/waning-immunity-not-crisis-right-now/619965/

Thanks for this! I’ve been wondering what’s reality here and what’s not. We mask, we avoid crowds (airports the notable exception), but lock downs aren’t something we can do again. All healthy, all vaxxed. 11*, 13, 16, 46, 51. The adults here haven’t been sick in any real way in 6 years, I haven’t had anything in a decade.  I can only assume I’ve got a very strong immune system based on zero incidences of sickness. We live outside for the most part but travel a lot (less right now) ultimately have no interest in taking chances while we well, take chances.  I’ve continued to think based on data that we are reasonably ok but have wondered about a third shot, etc. I think we will reevaluate at the end of the year.

* snuck him a first dose before school started because fuck those that politicize public health policy.

 

Just got my test back.

2nd Pfizer shot 3/5.

>2500 COVID 19 spike antibodies

51.4 SARS Covid 19 total antibodies. ( I had very mild case of Covid in early October 2020)

I don't understand the meaning of the 51.4 result.  Seems low but I don't see a range of expected options anywhere.  Is it relative to the >2500 result or is there some different scale for the prior infection antibodies?

350, 351.  Whatever it takes. 

So are the covid hospital patients still overwhelmingly unvaccinated?

6 hours ago, orange dream said:

 

Just got my test back.

2nd Pfizer shot 3/5.

>2500 COVID 19 spike antibodies

51.4 SARS Covid 19 total antibodies. ( I had very mild case of Covid in early October 2020)

I don't understand the meaning of the 51.4 result.  Seems low but I don't see a range of expected options anywhere.  Is it relative to the >2500 result or is there some different scale for the prior infection antibodies?

The nucleocapsid antibodies are reported on a different scale, an indexed score.

https://www.fda.gov/media/137605/download

8 hours ago, XYZ said:

So are the covid hospital patients still overwhelmingly unvaccinated?

Here in SA it’s running 86-88% from what I’m hearing.

9 hours ago, XYZ said:

So are the covid hospital patients still overwhelmingly unvaccinated?

Yes, about 90% statewide.  I'm guessing about 1/3rd of those are folks that were ineligible for the vaccine to begin with (under 12, immune-compromised, et. al.).  So yeah, the remainder being completely obtuse dipshits hogging up ICU spots.  With some determination and a few wet towels, we have this state truly open back up again.

On 9/4/2021 at 9:28 AM, Dontshootrude said:

Reading the last couple pages of this thread, I can't help but jump in here.  I'm a molecular biologist.  I'm happy to verify with the mods, just PM me so I don't dox myself.  I have not read most of this thread, so I apologize if what I'm about to say is redundant. 

Unless you are significantly immunocompromised, frail, living in a long term care facility, or specifically told to by your health care professional, I would encourage everyone to hold off getting a third shot for several reasons.  

1.  Efficacy against severe disease/hospitalization/death is still holding up well.  The Israeli data that a lot of the panic is based on is a statistical anomaly, discussed in detail here.  The vast majority of breakthrough cases in healthy people are very mild.  The severe cases are concentrated among those that are extremely frail and with a significant number of comorbidities. 

2.  We have no high power studies examining the safety of a third shot.  I'm at a loss why this would be publicly announced before we had clear data that this is a safe choice. 

3.  We have no idea if giving subsequent shots will reduce the efficacy of the delivery system.  We know this is happening with the adenovirus vector vaccines (J&J and Astrazeneca).The mRNA is encapsulated in a lipid shell.  It is possible that the immune system will begin to recognize this as foreign, mount a response against it, and develop memory.  This could result in every mRNA vaccine you receive going forward will become less and less effective.  This could have really significant consequences, because not only will mRNA vaccines likely continue to be the first vaccines available in future pandemics/health crises, but these also have huge potential to be very effective tools against cancer.  To me, it seems like a pretty poor tradeoff to get a third shot to prevent a cold in exchange for potentially limiting your options to respond to significant health issues down the road.

There are several ongoing studies that are examining the efficacy and safety of mixing and matching vaccines.  I'm middle aged and don't have any known health issues, so I've made up my mind to not get another mRNA shot or a J&J shot for COVID as long as something crazy doesn't happen like efficacy against severe disease plummeting.  The studies I'm waiting for revolve around Novavax.  This is a subunit vaccine (injects the spike protein directly) much like the flu shot, and it will mitigate the risks I outlined in point 3.  As long as the safety/efficacy data of using Novavax after vaccination with an mRNA vaccine looks good I will be willing to roll up my sleeve again.

And for those that haven't, I strongly suggest you read the article in my prior post.  The immune system is a highly complex and dynamic thing.  Antibodies alone do not tell the complete story of protection, so don't freak out if you don't have enough antibodies to pay off the Loch Ness monster. 

Just food for thought.  I'm happy to answer questions.           

Fauci seems really certain.