COVID-19 vaccine discussion

42 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Do you refuse to allow friends to crash the night with you for fear they may try and take your house? 

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

That's a slippery slope fallacy. There is no reason why the waiver cannot be temporary and limited. And that's what I've seen discussed. Do you refuse to allow friends to crash the night with you for fear they may try and take your house? 

yes after they do it once then no more crashing, no future offers will be made.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Viper

 

Hey pharma companies we need a new drug therapy or vaccine for a new disease and if you spend billions to develop it we might take away your patents.   Are you up for that?

And as I think I mentioned before I work with a lot of PhD's as 403b clients at a university whose basketball coach we just stole but I don't want to mention the school.  I've been on calls with them and when I ask the professors, deans etc of medical and biology colleges what they think of mRna they become almost speechless with the science breakthrough.   They are outright giddy at the future applications.

Edited May 6, 2021 by midtown

4 minutes ago, midtown said:

Hey pharma companies we need a new drug therapy or vaccine for a new disease and if you spend billions to develop it we might take away your patents.   Are you up for that?

They aren't proposing to take the patents away though. It is a short term waiver for this particular purpose. I doubt this does much to get additional vaccine doses available, but I also doubt it really does anything to hurt the pharma companies financially. 

1 hour ago, mdmost said:

I believe it was this one

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/last-pandemic-science-military-60-minutes-2021-04-11/

I want to believe 

Quote

If his concept, now in clinical trials, proves successful, Dr. Modjarrad says in five years a single vaccine could defeat all coronaviruses: that means many common colds, the deadly strain causing this pandemic and thousands of others.

 

3 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

I doubt this does much to get additional vaccine doses available

Agreed with this.  Then why do it other than to establish a precedent and or give the false perception that you're making a difference? 

4 hours ago, midtown said:

I've been on calls with them and when I ask the professors, deans etc of medical and biology colleges what they think of mRna they become almost speechless with the science breakthrough.   They are outright giddy at the future applications.

Outsourcing man...wave of the future.

25 minutes ago, midtown said:

Agreed with this.  Then why do it other than to establish a precedent and or give the false perception that you're making a difference? 

Because it might help slightly down the line and help free up some capital to speed things along.  We already have precedent and procedures for waiving patents in health emergencies, so I'm not buying the slippery slope argument that this will inevitably lead to patents being permanently invalidated. I don't see a temporary waiver for this pandemic hurting at all, and I think it could help in some small part. So, why not do it? Why fight about it? Let's just do it and move on to bigger fish. 

6 hours ago, Viper said:

Plastic bags are a bigger bottleneck than patents. 

Shame on you, Austin city council!

4 hours ago, clapclapclap said:

Shame on you, Austin city council!

Always the appropriate answer. To pretty much anything. 

5 hours ago, midtown said:

Agreed with this.  Then why do it other than to establish a precedent and or give the false perception that you're making a difference? 

It's a very interesting issue.  To me, you handle as agreed and get some legislation creating whatever the hell you want the next time you have a need for speed.  Give everyone the incentives to get the job done in the future and then write in your contingencies.  Maybe tax the pharmas a very high rate for initial profits and use those funds for distribution and production to poorer nations.  Many different ways to skin this cat without fucking up the reward side of risk/reward.

 

The patent waiver is moronic and it looks like only the usual morons support it.

On 5/6/2021 at 11:02 AM, midtown said:

Hey pharma companies we need a new drug therapy or vaccine for a new disease and if you spend billions to develop it we might take away your patents.   Are you up for that?

And as I think I mentioned before I work with a lot of PhD's as 403b clients at a university whose basketball coach we just stole but I don't want to mention the school.  I've been on calls with them and when I ask the professors, deans etc of medical and biology colleges what they think of mRna they become almost speechless with the science breakthrough.   They are outright giddy at the future applications.

I want to be this enthusiastic. Indeed, the global pharma community (full disclosure of which I am a part of) managed a multi prong approach to vaccinate the world in about a year. I really wasn’t sure if the RNA vaccines would work, and I sure am happy they do. 
 

Certainly massively more efficient to scale up than the traditional flu vaccines (they are grown in chicken eggs, for crying out loud). Damn pleased at the seemingly robust responses we’ve seen. Jury is a little out on the longevity of response in my book (though perhaps it’s easy to do a yearly booster for whatever new variant comes up). A little concerned about some of the strong reactions documented by about 30% of people - being laid out for a day or two. Not sure if that gets worse with repeated vaccinations, or if those reactions prompt people to shy away from a subsequent shot. 
 

Heroic global distribution and storage effort as well - don’t discount that at all. 

 

shit how many millions of doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine do we have sitting in warehouses doing nothing? why haven't we sent them to India and Brazil a month ago?

Edited May 9, 2021 by Viper

On 3/30/2021 at 4:36 PM, HouTex said:

My daughters (no pics) are 26 and 29.  They have had every vaccine available as have my wife and I.  We are big believers in vaccines.  My wife and I (both 58 years old) both have been vaccinated for covid and my 29 year old is in the healthcare biz and she has been vaccinated.  My 26 year old gets her first shot on Saturday.  But I'm not sure I would give my kids the covid vaccine if they were under 20.  Sure, I get the altruistic motive to help with community spread and it's admirable. 

Comparing flu deaths in Texas with covid deaths in Texas, for people under 20, the seasonal flu is way more dangerous and we never made our daughters get flu shots in high school or college.  For the flu seasons ending the fall of 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019 the deaths in Texas of persons under 17 is 63, 96, 79 and 82, respectively.  For covid, the persons in Texas that died under age 20 is 49.  See www.dsha.state.tx.us (for pre-covid flu deaths) and https://txdshs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/ed483ecd702b4298ab01e8b9cafc8b83 for covid deaths.  Because the gene therapy-based covid vaccines are relatively new in the vaccine world I'm not sure I would give it to my late teen kids when the disease is not particularly harmful to them.  I'm not saying it's foolish to get the shot(s) at that age, but I am saying that it's not crazy to avoid the shot(s) in that age group.  It would be a much tougher decision for me if my kids were under 20.

Blast from the past here, but the whole “kids don’t die from Covid” as a reason to not vaccinate is short sighted, imho. They can spread it, which is a reason to get them vaccinated. And Covid complications, even if they don’t die, can be very serious. 
 

There’s a lot of literature about how humans are bad at truly estimating risk, and this is the epitome of that. Death is not the only thing to avoid, and you are dismissing every other risk that can be mitigated by a robust vaccine program, both to your kids and to society at large. 
 

Anyway, the mRNA vaccines are one of the greatest scientific and medical advancements in human history. They don’t alter your DNA, they utilize a synthetic mRNA to mimic something that your body can use to defend itself against a real viral pathogen without actually infecting you. They were around pre Covid, but pretty theoretical. And they are special because they can treat many different ailments (including cancer) that this far have eluded our ability to protect against. 
 

The fact that we were able to go from a novel disease to a strikingly effective vaccine in under a year is something that we should be celebrating as one of the most amazing feats of human ingenuity in the history of the world. 
 

Instead, a large part of the population thinks they are smarter than literally some of the smartest people in the world and “trust their gut” on this when it comes deciding whether to vaccinate their kids. And the fact that someone who claims to be pro vaccine is hesitant about a vaccine that is so effective shows just how bad of a spot we are in. 
 

So yes: it is crazy to not get your kids the shots. I have a 5 year old and 2 year old, as soon as it is approved for pediatric use I’m making an appointment for them to get their vaccine. 

27 minutes ago, hornian said:

Blast from the past here, but the whole “kids don’t die from Covid” as a reason to not vaccinate is short sighted, imho. They can spread it, which is a reason to get them vaccinated. And Covid complications, even if they don’t die, can be very serious. 
 

There’s a lot of literature about how humans are bad at truly estimating risk, and this is the epitome of that. Death is not the only thing to avoid, and you are dismissing every other risk that can be mitigated by a robust vaccine program, both to your kids and to society at large. 
 

Anyway, the mRNA vaccines are one of the greatest scientific and medical advancements in human history. They don’t alter your DNA, they utilize a synthetic mRNA to mimic something that your body can use to defend itself against a real viral pathogen without actually infecting you. They were around pre Covid, but pretty theoretical. And they are special because they can treat many different ailments (including cancer) that this far have eluded our ability to protect against. 
 

The fact that we were able to go from a novel disease to a strikingly effective vaccine in under a year is something that we should be celebrating as one of the most amazing feats of human ingenuity in the history of the world. 
 

Instead, a large part of the population thinks they are smarter than literally some of the smartest people in the world and “trust their gut” on this when it comes deciding whether to vaccinate their kids. And the fact that someone who claims to be pro vaccine is hesitant about a vaccine that is so effective shows just how bad of a spot we are in. 
 

So yes: it is crazy to not get your kids the shots. I have a 5 year old and 2 year old, as soon as it is approved for pediatric use I’m making an appointment for them to get their vaccine. 

I totally agree with you and am adamant that vaccines are lifesaving. It always gets real when it’s your kid. But it appears that the vaccine is overwhelmingly protective and safe. There was an 11 year old in the news who traveling to Hawaii and then contracted and died from COVID. Apparently there were some other undisclosed medical issues he already had, but the risk is there. I want to get back to full schools and resume travel, and insure as heck am not comfortable until my teen gets that shot. 
 

Even so, as a parent, these type of decisions always nag at you. When my son was younger he was a snorer and restless sleeper. His adenoids were juuust barely abnormal, and after two consults we had them removed. Watching him go under and come back from surgery was excruciating and a parent can second guess and drive one’s self mad. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Txzen

 

 

ETA: Its a thread. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Anastasis

Blast from the past here, but the whole “kids don’t die from Covid” as a reason to not vaccinate is short sighted, imho. They can spread it, which is a reason to get them vaccinated. And Covid complications, even if they don’t die, can be very serious. 
 
There’s a lot of literature about how humans are bad at truly estimating risk, and this is the epitome of that. Death is not the only thing to avoid, and you are dismissing every other risk that can be mitigated by a robust vaccine program, both to your kids and to society at large. 
 
Anyway, the mRNA vaccines are one of the greatest scientific and medical advancements in human history. They don’t alter your DNA, they utilize a synthetic mRNA to mimic something that your body can use to defend itself against a real viral pathogen without actually infecting you. They were around pre Covid, but pretty theoretical. And they are special because they can treat many different ailments (including cancer) that this far have eluded our ability to protect against. 
 
The fact that we were able to go from a novel disease to a strikingly effective vaccine in under a year is something that we should be celebrating as one of the most amazing feats of human ingenuity in the history of the world. 
 
Instead, a large part of the population thinks they are smarter than literally some of the smartest people in the world and “trust their gut” on this when it comes deciding whether to vaccinate their kids. And the fact that someone who claims to be pro vaccine is hesitant about a vaccine that is so effective shows just how bad of a spot we are in. 
 
So yes: it is crazy to not get your kids the shots. I have a 5 year old and 2 year old, as soon as it is approved for pediatric use I’m making an appointment for them to get their vaccine. 

What you think is crazy and what I think is crazy are two different things. There are unknowns on both sides of this. All of the available data shows that youngsters are at very little risk from covid. It’s completely reasonable to not vaccine your young children in this unique case. I’m also saying you are not foolish to have your young children vaccinated for covid. For those of you who might think I’m generally antivax read my first post on this topic. My whole family has been fully vaccinated.

What you think is crazy and what I think is crazy are two different things. There are unknowns on both sides of this. All of the available data shows that youngsters are at very little risk from covid. It’s completely reasonable to not vaccine your young children in this unique case. I’m also saying you are not foolish to have your young children vaccinated for covid. For those of you who might think I’m generally antivax read my first post on this topic. My whole family has been fully vaccinated.

What I don't get is that between the "unknown" long term effects of Covid versus the vaccine, you're on the side of Covid being the lesser long term harm to kids. And this appears, by media accounts, to be a common view. How do you arrive at that view?

What I don't get is that between the "unknown" long term effects of Covid versus the vaccine, you're on the side of Covid being the lesser long term harm to kids. And this appears, by media accounts, to be a common view. How do you arrive at that view?

The unknown long term effects are unknown. And there may be none at all. The long term effects of the vaccine are unknown as well. I and my family took that risk and got the shots. I’m only saying that it would be a tougher call if my kids were young. Another data point for me is that I know so many people with college aged kids and younger and none of them have said it was worse than the common cold for their kids. That and the death stats show that the seasonal flu is more deadly than covid for people under 20. So it’s not a no brainer either way for me.

1 hour ago, HouTex said:

That and the death stats show that the seasonal flu is more deadly than covid for people under 20.

I'm not sure you can really compare flu and Covid like that when we closed the schools for Covid.

I like how vaccines are often presented as a useful “tool” against COVID.  Masks, distancing, hand hygiene are tools.  The vaccine is the SOLUTION.  
 

If COVID is a grizzly charging at you, the vaccine is your shotgun.  Your other “tools” like masks, distancing are like a pointy stick and your fist.  

the death stats show that the seasonal flu is more deadly than covid for people under 20.

For the existing strains. If people don’t vaccinate, that allows the virus to continue to mutate into new variants. It could easily go to no big deal for kids to the biggest fucking deal for kids since polio.

Give everyone the vaccine.

Pfizer just got approved for 12-15.

I signed my daughter up at H‑E‑B for Wednesday. Even though the site still said 16+ it scheduled it with her actual age (14). So either their site doesn’t verify the age or the backend has already been updated.

3 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Pfizer just got approved for 12-15.

I signed my daughter up at H‑E‑B for Wednesday. Even though the site still said 16+ it scheduled it with her actual age (14). So either their site doesn’t verify the age or the backend has already been updated.

You obviously weren't the only one.  The HEB appointments for Pfizer have just gone "poof" within the last hour.

I don't think that they will technically be able to administer until they have CDC ACIP approval, which should come Wednesday.  At least by the book. 

21 hours ago, Anastasis said:

I don't think that they will technically be able to administer until they have CDC ACIP approval, which should come Wednesday.  At least by the book. 

A friend's kid had an appointment today and HEB wouldn't give it out quite yet. They said Thursday most likely.

My wife called ARC and they said when they had confirmation to give it out to the 12-15 age group, it'd go live on their website and it just did. Changed my daughter from HEB on WED to her pediatrician at ARC on THU.

One thing I did notice is that all HEB pharmacies are walk in for vaccines MON-FRI 3pm - 5pm. I don't think most people realize you don't have to fight for an appointment any longer.

 

Thx for the ARC tip.  Just got one for my kiddo for Thursday AM,

54 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

A friend's kid had an appointment today and HEB wouldn't give it out quite yet. They said Thursday most likely.

My wife called ARC and they said when they had confirmation to give it out to the 12-15 age group, it'd go live on their website and it just did. Changed my daughter from HEB on WED to her pediatrician at ARC on THU.

One thing I did notice is that all HEB pharmacies are walk in for vaccines MON-FRI 3pm - 5pm. I don't think most people realize you don't have to fight for an appointment any longer.

 

thanks for that - our kids are at ARC as well.

it appears HEB hasn't received authorization to give it out yet.

One thing I did notice is that all HEB pharmacies are walk in for vaccines MON-FRI 3pm - 5pm. I don't think most people realize you don't have to fight for an appointment any longer.
 

That also means that pharmacies have been given approval to waste vaccine now since their not scheduling to fit the dosing needs to use an entire vial.

Daily rate of shots in US has finally stopped dropping and actually ticked back up a bit the past few days. Now at 41% coverage (46% one dose, 35% full dose).

Glad to see the EU and Canada are finally getting their vax programs running strong. Canada now up to 22%, while the vast majority of "free" Europe (everything but Russia, Ukraine, Belarus) is at or above 20% or will hit that number by the end of the week. 

Still concerned about SE Asia and Oceania. Seems like the Pacific Ocean countries have just decided to forgo vaccines entirely and stick with implementing sporadic lockdowns when any level of cases are detected. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Storm the Field

28 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

Daily rate of shots in US has finally stopped dropping and actually ticked back up a bit the past few days. Now at 41% coverage (46% one dose, 35% full dose).

Glad to see the EU and Canada are finally getting their vax programs running strong. Canada now up to 22%, while the vast majority of "free" Europe (everything but Russia, Ukraine, Belarus) is at or above 20% or will hit that number by the end of the week. 

Still concerned about SE Asia and Oceania. Seems like the Pacific Ocean countries have just decided to forgo vaccines entirely and stick with implementing sporadic lockdowns when any level of cases are detected. 

Was just chatting with some German friends, and the adults (not elderly) are now starting to get appointments.  One already has her appointment in a couple of weeks for shot 1, her husband is signed up but still waiting for a slot, and their 17 yr old son is signed up and waiting for a slot.  But they are starting to get some traction and pick up speed, which is really good news.

CVS just opened up their scheduler for 12-15 year olds.

Just now, CooterBrown said:

CVS just opened up their scheduler for 12-15 year olds.

I think that's illegal in Texas.  Well at least parts of it anyway.

On 5/9/2021 at 12:34 PM, HouTex said:

What you think is crazy and what I think is crazy are two different things. There are unknowns on both sides of this. All of the available data shows that youngsters are at very little risk from covid. It’s completely reasonable to not vaccine your young children in this unique case. I’m also saying you are not foolish to have your young children vaccinated for covid. For those of you who might think I’m generally antivax read my first post on this topic. My whole family has been fully vaccinated.

Well you referred to the vaccine and it’s class of vaccines as gene therapy vaccines. So that makes me think you are either ignorant or misinformed. 
 

or maybe I am. Could you tell me which of my genes are being manipulated by this antigen?

ive done this before but here’s how this works:

we build a piece of rna and put it into the human system. Our normal translation proteins happen across these rna fragments and translate them into the corresponding protein. This protein happens (by design obviously)to mimic the spikes on the covid virus. Our body senses the foreign proteins and provides an immune response to them. That immune response is still available if and when the actual virus makes its way into the system. The rna pieces and the translated proteins from them are innocuous and break down at the same rate as proteins and rna strands do in our system. Our own dna remains unaffected. It isn’t suppressing immune response, it is activating it. It’s a fucking miracle of science. And all of the solvents and excipients that are in the solution have been used in many other injectables over the years and have been proven thoroughly safe. 

Well you referred to the vaccine and it’s class of vaccines as gene therapy vaccines. So that makes me think you are either ignorant or misinformed. 
 
or maybe I am. Could you tell me which of my genes are being manipulated by this antigen?
ive done this before but here’s how this works:
we build a piece of rna and put it into the human system. Our normal translation proteins happen across these rna fragments and translate them into the corresponding protein. This protein happens (by design obviously)to mimic the spikes on the covid virus. Our body senses the foreign proteins and provides an immune response to them. That immune response is still available if and when the actual virus makes its way into the system. The rna pieces and the translated proteins from them are innocuous and break down at the same rate as proteins and rna strands do in our system. Our own dna remains unaffected. It isn’t suppressing immune response, it is activating it. It’s a fucking miracle of science. And all of the solvents and excipients that are in the solution have been used in many other injectables over the years and have been proven thoroughly safe. 

You would be misinformed. The pharma companies and the media have referred to it is gene therapy. Do just a little research and you’ll find the articles online. I’m not using the term to mean that it modifies genes. It can be gene therapy without altering your genes.

2 minutes ago, HouTex said:

You would be misinformed. The pharma companies and the media have referred to it is gene therapy. Do just a little research and you’ll find the articles online. I’m not using the term to mean that it modifies genes. It can be gene therapy without altering your genes.

Oh well if the media says it then it must be true. 

16 hours ago, HouTex said:

You would be misinformed. The pharma companies and the media have referred to it is gene therapy. Do just a little research and you’ll find the articles online. I’m not using the term to mean that it modifies genes. It can be gene therapy without altering your genes.

This is wrong, and frankly it's a semantic (though important) argument. mRNA isn't a gene - it's a message from a gene. Gene therapy is most commonly referred to as the act of changing the DNA of a cell. 

From the pharma company that developed the vaccine:

Quote

How does mRNA differ from gene therapy?
Helping the body make its own medicine using mRNA sounds like it might be similar to gene therapy or gene editing. While these treatment approaches seek to treat disease through genetic information, they take fundamentally different approaches. Gene therapy and gene editing alter the original genetic information each cell carries. The goal is to produce a permanent fix to the underlying genetic problem by changing the defective gene. Moderna is taking a different approach to address the underlying cause of MMA and other diseases. mRNA transfers the instructions stored in DNA to make the proteins required in every living cell. Our approach aims to help the body make its own missing or defective protein. Unlike gene editing and gene therapy, mRNA technology does not change the genetic information of the cell, and is intended to be short-acting. It acts like traditional drugs that can be adjusted over time based on the dose and frequency needed. In simple terms, we are working to provide physicians and patients with a “controllable” way to start and manage their therapy over time.

link

 

New York state giving Shack Shack vouchers (free burger and fries) when you get a vaccination.

Texas needs to do the same but with Whataburger.

1 hour ago, Txzen said:

This is wrong, and frankly it's a semantic (though important) argument. mRNA isn't a gene - it's a message from a gene. Gene therapy is most commonly referred to as the act of changing the DNA of a cell. 

From the pharma company that developed the vaccine:

link

 

From the American Society of Gene + Cell Therapy on November 17, 2020 before the term "gene therapy" was being used by some kooks to argue that it altered your DNA.  That was not my intent in using the term.  The ASGCT uses the term gene therapy three times.  The video from the ASGCT website is probably the best and simplest explanation of mRNA vaccines that I've heard.  From the video:  the vaccines "deliver synthetic mRNA molecules into cells instructing them to make antigens."   

https://asgct.org/research/news/november-2020/covid-19-moderna-nih-vaccine

5 minutes ago, HouTex said:

From the American Society of Gene + Cell Therapy on November 17, 2020 before the term "gene therapy" was being used by some kooks to argue that it altered your DNA.  That was not my intent in using the term.  The ASGCT uses the term gene therapy three times.  The video from the ASGCT website is probably the best and simplest explanation of mRNA vaccines that I've heard.  From the video:  the vaccines "deliver synthetic mRNA molecules into cells instructing them to make antigens."   

https://asgct.org/research/news/november-2020/covid-19-moderna-nih-vaccine

Yep, which I why I said it was a bit of a semantic argument, and frankly it's a bit regrettable that ASGCT (who hold a yearly conference that I attend) sort of muddle the waters with that term. The therapy does nothing to alter genes, and does not contain a gene. That quote is perfect, though - it's an instruction. mRNA is a bitch to work with because it's extremely labile, and you have to have all sorts of safeguards in the lab to prevent it from getting chewed by by RNases. It's why I've never been concerned about safety for this approach, but was skeptical it would work. 

1 hour ago, Shaggybevo said:

New York state giving Shack Shack vouchers (free burger and fries) when you get a vaccination.

Texas needs to do the same but with Whataburger.

or there's Ohio's approach - https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/2021/05/13/how-you-are-eligible-ohio-vax-a-million-lotteey/5070598001/

Quote

Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine outlined a plan Tuesday night as he offered five $1 million prizes to adults who have been vaccinated and five full-ride scholarships to state schools to teens who get vaccinated. 

 

Hypothetically, if I had an 11 year old could I lie about the birthday and get them a pfizer?

1 hour ago, Shaggybevo said:

New York state giving Shack Shack vouchers (free burger and fries) when you get a vaccination.

Texas needs to do the same but with Whataburger.

I’ll go back for a shot every week.

36 minutes ago, CleverNickname said:

Hypothetically, if I had an 11 year old could I lie about the birthday and get them a pfizer?

Hypothetically I've been wondering the same. Going to look into this. 

 

Hell yeah, you guys should get your 11YO vaccinated.  One day, it'll be like those stories our grandfathers used to tell about lying about their ages to get into the service to fight the Japanese.  Only this time, it'll be to fight Covid.  And the Chinese.  And stupid people.  And Jenny McCarthy.  

31 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Hell yeah, you guys should get your 11YO vaccinated.  One day, it'll be like those stories our grandfathers used to tell about lying about their ages to get into the service to fight the Japanese.  Only this time, it'll be to fight Covid.  And the Chinese.  And stupid people.  And Jenny McCarthy.  

Do we have to FIGHT Jenny McCarthy?  Or could we just kind of, umm, wrestle?  In little or no clothing?  Asking for a friend.

My 11yo would likely look the vaccinator dead in the eye and tell her that she's 11 and then smirk at me as we walked out the door. She's also a communist.