COVID-19 vaccine discussion

Packed stadium without being vaxxed? What could go wrong?

7 minutes ago, Deej said:

What could go wrong?

Austin FC could get their asses drilled?

Packed stadium without being vaxxed? What could go wrong?

Heat stroke but that’s neither here nor there

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Also, going to the Austin FC match on Saturday?  Get your shot while you're there, I'm serious:

 

They had vaccine booths at the NASCAR race at COTA last month.  I even saw one person do it.

 

Give free beer with every shot and do it pre game. 
 

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Give free beer with every shot and do it pre game. 
 

I don’t think 10 shots a week will be good for people, though. 

3 minutes ago, Liquor and Poker said:

I don’t think 10 shots a week will be good for people, though. 

Elite immunology. 

Some adolescent children second shot updates.  My two sons, ages 12 and 15, got their second shots two weeks ago.  Both had sore arms.  15 year old, who also had the mildest case of COVID back in December, spiked a low grade fever and felt shitty for two days or so.  12 year old had not even the slightest additional symptom outside of the sore arm. 

It's summer.  The kids have time for some down time.  Get those shots and don't hesitate on the second one. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by dcbc

Highest vax day in a month yesterday. 2.05M doses with 815K being first-timers. Over the last 2 weeks, daily average has crept back up from 950K/day to 1.35M/day.

65% of Americans 18+ have now had at least 1 shot. 62% of Americans 12+.

53% of the total population has had 1 shot, with 44.5% fully vaxed.

 

17 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

Highest vax day in a month yesterday. 2.05M doses with 815K being first-timers. Over the last 2 weeks, daily average has crept back up from 950K/day to 1.35M/day.

65% of Americans 18+ have now had at least 1 shot. 62% of Americans 12+.

53% of the total population has had 1 shot, with 44.5% fully vaxed.

 

Great to see.  I stopped tracking daily as it was making me all ragey.  

I guess people are seeing the benefit of being vaxxed in reentering normal life?

Don't have the data, but I'm guessing the 12-18 age group is a big reason rates have been creeping back up.  Whatever the reason, it's great to see.

What’s the rule for testing positive in between shot 1 and 2? Do you have to wait to test negative first?

First Pfizer went down today. Nothing out of the ordinary to report. Hoping the second goes the same. Sept. 4th let's go!

My employer just released their new guidance starting August 1st.  If you provide original proof of full vaccination, you no longer have to wear a mask in company buildings. If you don't want to provide proof, then you will wear a mask for the foreseeable future. No exceptions.  

 

 

27 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

My employer just released their new guidance starting August 1st.  If you provide original proof of full vaccination, you no longer have to wear a mask in company buildings. If you don't want to provide proof, then you will wear a mask for the foreseeable future. No exceptions.  

 

 

that's going to be awesomely awkward.

40 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

My employer just released their new guidance starting August 1st.  If you provide original proof of full vaccination, you no longer have to wear a mask in company buildings. If you don't want to provide proof, then you will wear a mask for the foreseeable future. No exceptions.  

 

 

35 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

that's going to be awesomely awkward.

Yep. Cannot wait.

That's what we've been doing. Only 9/25 employees have been vaccinated. I walk around like a smug asshole sometimes.

 

new band name : Delta Variant

WHO now advises against 18 and under getting vaccinated

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/covid-19-vaccines/advice

 

6 minutes ago, Cody2422 said:

WHO now advises against 18 and under getting vaccinated

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/covid-19-vaccines/advice

 

Quote

Children should not be vaccinated for the moment.

There is not yet enough evidence on the use of vaccines against COVID-19 in children to make recommendations for children to be vaccinated against COVID-19. Children and adolescents tend to have milder disease compared to adults. However, children should continue to have the recommended childhood vaccines.

ambiguous statement is ambiguous.  JFC, are they trying to save the vax for everyone else (outside of US) to get it first or is there some key piece of data that is missing to grant them confidence in the vax being safe and effective in children?  I thought the mRNA ones had stellar trials for the younglings.  obviously, there is no long term data, but we did not have that for the original ones either.

28 minutes ago, Cody2422 said:

WHO now advises against 18 and under getting vaccinated

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/covid-19-vaccines/advice

 

19 minutes ago, gyroprotagonist said:

ambiguous statement is ambiguous.  JFC, are they trying to save the vax for everyone else (outside of US) to get it first or is there some key piece of data that is missing to grant them confidence in the vax being safe and effective in children?  I thought the mRNA ones had stellar trials for the younglings.  obviously, there is no long term data, but we did not have that for the original ones either.

Messaging for countries with supply constraints, which will unfortunately be used domestically to bolster vax hesitancy. 

Yep, they could have been honest and given one less arrow to the quiver of stupidity within our shores. 

Although they are criminals, I'm starting to respect Capitol Insurrectionists more than Anti-Covid Vaxxers.  None of them liked how the last year has gone for them, but instead the latter opted to just pout at home and spread conspiracy theories about vaccines; while the former group at least got off their ass and took some direct action.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Lobo

23 minutes ago, Lobo said:

while the former group at least got off their ass and took some direct action.

i thought some antivax went and protested at a concert or something.   looked it up, yeah it was the foo fighters last week.

34 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Messaging for countries with supply constraints, which will unfortunately be used domestically to bolster vax hesitancy. 

Fucking this.

WHO not following the science. Dicks.

Fuck the WHO. 

Can we possibly fuck up the messaging more?

tl;dr The Chinese vaccine doesn't work too well, and the poor countries that have relied on it are going to keep seeing this shit spread.

They Relied on Chinese Vaccines. Now They’re Battling Outbreaks.
More than 90 countries are using Covid shots from China. Experts say recent infections in those places should serve as a cautionary tale in the global effort to fight the disease.

Mongolia promised its people a “Covid-free summer.” Bahrain said there would be a “return to normal life.” The tiny island nation of the Seychelles aimed to jump-start its economy.

All three put their faith, at least in part, in easily accessible Chinese-made vaccines, which would allow them to roll out ambitious inoculation programs when much of the world was going without.

But instead of freedom from the coronavirus, all three countries are now battling a surge in infections.

Spoiler

 

China kicked off its vaccine diplomacy campaign last year by pledging to provide a shot that would be safe and effective at preventing severe cases of Covid-19. Less certain at the time was how successful it and other vaccines would be at curbing transmission.

Now, examples from several countries suggest that the Chinese vaccines may not be very effective at preventing the spread of the virus, particularly the new variants. The experiences of those countries lay bare a harsh reality facing a postpandemic world: The degree of recovery may depend on which vaccines governments give to their people.

In the Seychelles, Chile, Bahrain and Mongolia, 50 to 68 percent of the populations have been fully inoculated, outpacing the United States, according to Our World in Data, a data tracking project. All four ranked among the top 10 countries with the worst Covid outbreaks as recently as last week, according to data from The New York Times. And all four are mostly using shots made by two Chinese vaccine makers, Sinopharm and Sinovac Biotech.

“If the vaccines are sufficiently good, we should not see this pattern,” said Jin Dongyan, a virologist at the University of Hong Kong. “The Chinese have a responsibility to remedy this.”

Scientists don’t know for certain why some countries with relatively high inoculation rates are suffering new outbreaks. Variants, social controls that are eased too quickly and careless behavior after only the first of a two-shot regimen are possibilities. But the breakthrough infections could have lasting consequences.

In the United States, about 45 percent of the population is fully vaccinated, mostly with doses made by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna. Cases have dropped 94 percent over six months.

Israel provided shots from Pfizer and has the second-highest vaccination rate in the world, after the Seychelles. The number of new daily confirmed Covid-19 cases per million in Israel is now around 4.95.

In the Seychelles, which relied mostly on Sinopharm, that number is more than 716 cases per million.

Disparities such as these could create a world in which three types of countries emerge from the pandemic — the wealthy nations that used their resources to secure Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna shots, the poorer countries that are far away from immunizing a majority of citizens, and then those that are fully inoculated but only partly protected.

China, as well as the more than 90 nations that have received the Chinese shots, may end up in the third group, contending with rolling lockdowns, testing and limits on day-to-day life for months or years to come. Economies could remain held back. And as more citizens question the efficacy of Chinese doses, persuading unvaccinated people to line up for shots may also become more difficult.

One month after receiving his second dose of Sinopharm, Otgonjargal Baatar fell ill and tested positive for Covid-19. Mr. Otgonjargal, a 31-year-old miner, spent nine days in a hospital in Ulaanbaatar, the capital of Mongolia. He said he was now questioning the usefulness of the shot.

“People were convinced that if we were vaccinated, the summer will be free of Covid,” he said. “Now it turns out that it’s not true.”

Beijing saw its vaccine diplomacy as an opportunity to emerge from the pandemic as a more influential global power. China’s top leader, Xi Jinping, pledged to deliver a Chinese shot that could be easily stored and transported to millions of people around the world. He called it a “global public good.”

Mongolia was a beneficiary, jumping at the chance to score millions of Sinopharm shots. The small country quickly rolled out an inoculation program and eased restrictions. It has now vaccinated 52 percent of its population. But on Sunday, it recorded 2,400 new infections, a quadrupling from a month before.

In a statement, China’s Foreign Ministry said it did not see a link between the recent outbreaks and its vaccines. It cited the World Health Organization as saying that vaccination rates in certain countries had not reached sufficient levels to prevent outbreaks, and that countries needed to continue to maintain controls.

“Relevant reports and data also show that many countries that use Chinese-made vaccines have expressed that they are safe and reliable, and have played a good role in their epidemic prevention efforts,” the ministry said. China has also emphasized that its vaccines target severe disease rather than transmission.

No vaccine fully prevents transmission, and people can still fall ill after being inoculated, but the relatively low efficacy rates of Chinese shots have been identified as a possible cause of the recent outbreaks.

The Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines have efficacy rates of more than 90 percent. A variety of other vaccines — including AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson — have efficacy rates of around 70 percent. The Sinopharm vaccine developed with the Beijing Institute of Biological Products has an efficacy rate of 78.1 percent; the Sinovac vaccine has an efficacy rate of 51 percent.

The Chinese companies have not released much clinical data to show how their vaccines work at preventing transmission. On Monday, Shao Yiming, an epidemiologist with the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention, said China needed to fully vaccinate 80 to 85 percent of its population to achieve herd immunity, revising a previous official estimate of 70 percent.

Data on breakthrough infections has not been made available, either, though a Sinovac study out of Chile showed that the vaccine was less effective than those from Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna at preventing infection among vaccinated individuals.

A representative from Sinopharm hung up the phone when reached for comment. Sinovac did not respond to a request for comment.

William Schaffner, medical director of the National Foundation for Infectious Diseases at Vanderbilt University, said the efficacy rates of Chinese shots could be low enough “to sustain some transmission, as well as create illness of a substantial amount in the highly vaccinated population, even though it keeps people largely out of the hospital.”

Despite the spike in cases, officials in both the Seychelles and Mongolia have defended Sinopharm, saying it is effective in preventing severe cases of the disease.

Batbayar Ochirbat, head researcher of the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies at Mongolia’s Ministry of Health, said Mongolia had made the right decision to go with the Chinese-made shot, in part because it had helped keep the mortality rate low in the country. Data from Mongolia showed that the Sinopharm vaccine was actually more protective than the doses developed by AstraZeneca and Sputnik, a Russian vaccine, according to the Health Ministry.

The reason for the surge in Mongolia, Mr. Batbayar said, is that the country reopened too quickly, and many people believed they were protected after only one dose.

“I think you could say Mongolians celebrated too early,” he said. “My advice is the celebrations should start after the full vaccinations, so this is the lesson learned. There was too much confidence.”

Some health officials and scientists are less confident.

Nikolai Petrovsky, a professor at the College of Medicine and Public Health at Flinders University in Australia, said that with all of the evidence, it would be reasonable to assume the Sinopharm vaccine had minimal effect on curbing transmission. A major risk with the Chinese inoculation is that vaccinated people may have few or no symptoms and still spread the virus to others, he said.

“I think that this complexity has been lost on most decision makers around the world.”

In Indonesia, where a new variant is spreading, more than 350 doctors and health care workers recently came down with Covid-19 despite being fully vaccinated with Sinovac, according to the risk mitigation team of the Indonesian Medical Association. Across the country, 61 doctors died between February and June 7. Ten of them had taken the Chinese-made vaccine, the association said.

The numbers were enough to make Kenneth Mak, Singapore’s director of medical services, question the use of Sinovac. “It’s not a problem associated with Pfizer,” Mr. Mak said at a news conference on Friday. “This is actually a problem associated with the Sinovac vaccine.”

Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates were the first two countries to approve the Sinopharm shot, even before late-stage clinical trial data was released. Since then, there have been extensive reports of vaccinated people falling ill in both countries. In a statement, the Bahraini government’s media office said the kingdom’s vaccine rollout had been “efficient and successful to date.”

Still, last month officials from Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates announced that they would offer a third booster shot. The choices: Pfizer or more Sinopharm.

 

 

19 minutes ago, bolverk said:

The Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines have efficacy rates of more than 90 percent. A variety of other vaccines — including AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson — have efficacy rates of around 70 percent. The Sinopharm vaccine developed with the Beijing Institute of Biological Products has an efficacy rate of 78.1 percent; the Sinovac vaccine has an efficacy rate of 51 percent.

 

This really goes to show how very fortunate we were to be positioned to deploy the novel mRNA technology in this case.  The Chinese are using older, traditional vaccine technology for some of their shots. Fifty percent VE would have probably been acceptable to FDA for an EUA, but we hit the fucking jackpot with highly effective mRNA vaccines developed on the back of years and years of foundational research building to this moment. 

4 hours ago, Lobo said:

Yep, they could have been honest and given one less arrow to the quiver of stupidity within our shores. 

Although they are criminals, I'm starting to respect Capitol Insurrectionists more than Anti-Covid Vaxxers.  None of them liked how the last year has gone for them, but instead the latter opted to just pout at home and spread conspiracy theories about vaccines; while the former group at least got off their ass and took some direct action.

Now the Insurrectionists are doing their damndest to catch up on the conspiracy theory spreading.  I respect neither group.  And there's a lot of overlap in that Venn Diagram.

18 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Fuck the WHO. 

 

Won't get fooled again.

Who made WHO? 

These fucking myocarditis reports may throw a hitch in the giddy up. Being discussed at CDC ACIP right now.

 

14 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

These fucking myocarditis reports may throw a hitch in the giddy up. Being discussed at CDC ACIP right now.

 

My VERY thin understanding of these reports was that they weren't actually materially exceeding the expected natural rate of myocarditis?  But my question mark is there for a reason.

Just now, Brisketexan said:

My VERY thin understanding of these reports was that they weren't actually materially exceeding the expected natural rate of myocarditis?  But my question mark is there for a reason.

Here is some of the data that they are presenting today. They have another deck on risk/benefits, and the deck at least strongly suggests that their assessment appears to me to be that the benefits outweigh risks at both individual and population level.  But after the JNJ fiasco who knows where they end up.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/slides-2021-06.html

 

 

22 hours ago, Cody2422 said:

WHO now advises against 18 and under getting vaccinated

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/covid-19-vaccines/advice

 

They appear to have updated their message to children under 18 are not a high priority to vaccinate.

This statement is also in there:

Quote

WHO's Strategic Advisory Group of Experts (SAGE) has concluded that the Pfizer/BionTech vaccine is suitable for use by people aged 12 years and above.

Unfortunately the WHO is trying to send a common message about vaccines when there are many vaccines out there with different testing statuses, especially with children. In other words, they probably shouldn't have a common message. 

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Here is some of the data that they are presenting today. They have another deck on risk/benefits, and the deck at least strongly suggests that their assessment appears to me to be that the benefits outweigh risks at both individual and population level.  But after the JNJ fiasco who knows where they end up.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/slides-2021-06.html

 

 

IMO, we should have held off on the 18 and under crowd and possibly 25 and under. pushed real hard on the 25 and over.   risk to 25u was extremely low.

IMO, we should have held off on the 18 and under crowd and possibly 25 and under. pushed real hard on the 25 and over.   risk to 25u was extremely low.

Possibly. But also those age groups socialize at a very high level so I assume the chances of spread is high.

1 minute ago, midtown said:

7 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

IMO, we should have held off on the 18 and under crowd and possibly 25 and under. pushed real hard on the 25 and over.   risk to 25u was extremely low.

Possibly. But also those age groups socialize at a very high level so I assume the chances of spread is high.

yeah I know but they are generally spreading amongst themselves and seem to have much lower viral load/tendency to be asymptomatic.  EUA should really have been limited to most vulnerable.  Its EUA for a reason.

On 6/18/2021 at 10:08 AM, dcbc said:

Some adolescent children second shot updates.  My two sons, ages 12 and 15, got their second shots two weeks ago.  Both had sore arms.  15 year old, who also had the mildest case of COVID back in December, spiked a low grade fever and felt shitty for two days or so.  12 year old had not even the slightest additional symptom outside of the sore arm. 

It's summer.  The kids have time for some down time.  Get those shots and don't hesitate on the second one. 

 

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Here is some of the data that they are presenting today. They have another deck on risk/benefits, and the deck at least strongly suggests that their assessment appears to me to be that the benefits outweigh risks at both individual and population level.  But after the JNJ fiasco who knows where they end up.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/slides-2021-06.html

 

 

Just one docs opinion but UCSF heme onc doc and in epidemiology. Good thread overall, a couple highlights here

 

25 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

 

Just one docs opinion but UCSF heme onc doc and in epidemiology. Good thread overall, a couple highlights here

 

I really hope we didn't make a mistake here.

I’m not spiking any football here, but I’m glad we have waited on our 12 year old up to this point. Just about all adults he regularly interacts with are vaccinated, so the risk of him spreading it are pretty low. I’m not against getting him vaccinated eventually, but I didn’t think there was a big rush to do it.

2 hours ago, Hate said:

I’m not spiking any football here, but I’m glad we have waited on our 12 year old up to this point. Just about all adults he regularly interacts with are vaccinated, so the risk of him spreading it are pretty low. I’m not against getting him vaccinated eventually, but I didn’t think there was a big rush to do it.

Mine, who turned 12 a month ago, had Covid.  So I have been in no rush.

I didn’t think it made much sense to vaccinate young people or people who already had covid.

On 6/22/2021 at 1:29 PM, Anastasis said:

Messaging for countries with supply constraints, which will unfortunately be used domestically to bolster vax hesitancy. 

The vax hesitant don’t believe or trust the WHO though, so that shouldn’t be an issue as long as they are intellectually honest...

8 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Here is some of the data that they are presenting today. They have another deck on risk/benefits, and the deck at least strongly suggests that their assessment appears to me to be that the benefits outweigh risks at both individual and population level.  But after the JNJ fiasco who knows where they end up.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/slides-2021-06.html

 

 

Help me understand this data. 7 day window means the myocarditis was diagnosed in the 7 days post vaccination shot?  If so, did they use that because it is the risk window?

Just now, Pato del Muerto said:

Help me understand this data. 7 day window means the myocarditis was diagnosed in the 7 days post vaccination shot?  If so, did they use that because it is the risk window?

Basically yes. They did different analyses using different risk windows

And I assume that a sample size of millions per age group means it wasn’t blanket tested for, but reported when diagnosed from people showing up to get checked for pain/whatever symptoms?