COVID-19 vaccine discussion

I think we are going to get our about to be 13 year old vaccinated this week. This Delta variant is alarming. He spends quite a bit of time with his 82 year old grandmother. She is vaccinated, but it was the J&J vaccine which doesn’t seem to protect as much as Moderna or Pfizer. It has not been an easy decision to get us to this point, but I think we are doing the right thing.

It was a no brainer to get my teenagers vaccinated and I will do the same for my youngest when he is 12 soon - anything to help prevent more loss of time in school and sports, not to mention reduction in transmission.

 

2 minutes ago, Hate said:

I think we are going to get our about to be 13 year old vaccinated this week. This Delta variant is alarming. He spends quite a bit of time with his 82 year old grandmother. She is vaccinated, but it was the J&J vaccine which doesn’t seem to protect as much as Moderna or Pfizer. It has not been an easy decision to get us to this point, but I think we are doing the right thing.

We were going to hold off until Aug with mine around same age, but delta variant made us push that up to ASAP. 

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

Yeah, the 12-18 group is still hard to get a read on with regard to vaccine necessity.  Any parent with a kid that age is facing a conundrum I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.  My oldest is 6.5 right now.  If a deployable vaccine for her age group is available at year's end, which it looks like it will be...we'll still wring our hands over what to do for awhile.  It'll be gut-wrenching and I'm not looking forward to that window of time.  

Now when it comes to parents who are worried like me, but they themselves are not getting the vaccine.  I think it's funny to cheer for their demise and laugh and piss on their graves.  You got kids who can still catch it at home, you got grandparents down the street who are medically vulnerable, and this is the big stand you take in life.  You never made anything of yourself but now you decide to be bold?  Fuck you, choke out and die you fat fucking pricks.  

We vaccinated our 14 year old as soon as it was available for him.  I have no regrets.

10 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

We vaccinated our 14 year old as soon as it was available for him.  I have no regrets.

My Colorado kids (14, 17, 17) were vaccinated as soon as it was available to them. Zero regrets. They are living, sporting (volleyball, tennis and rugby) and traveling as they should at those ages. 

YMMV.

Edited July 26, 2021 by washparkhorn

On 7/23/2021 at 3:52 PM, mdleast said:

My wife and I both got the J&J (it was the only thing being offered when we went).    Sure would like some definitive guidance about being able to get a Pfiefzer or Moderna booster as it relates to the Delta variant. 

I put this in another thread, but:

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/20/dr-vin-gupta-encourages-jj-vaccine-recipients-to-get-a-pfizer-or-moderna-booster.html

 

And what others have posted.  I had my J&J in April.  Got a Moderna shot on Friday.   No dl check here in Oregon.  Just marked 'no' on the application where it asked if I had received a covid vaccine before.   I haven't found a single article saying that the idea is harmful, and other countries are already doing it with the AZ one, like Anastasis said.

Oh, and my 12 year old got his second shot on Saturday.  I had also debated the second shot due to some scary stories, but then the delta stories got scarier.   He experienced the same ultra drowsiness yesterday.  Today seems fine.

 

12 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

I haven't found a single article saying that the idea is harmful, and other countries are already doing it with the AZ one

Two studies in Nature Medicine today.  Commentary on the topic at this link:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01463-x

A ‘mix and match’ approach to SARS-CoV-2 vaccination

Heterologous dosing with the adenovirus-based ChAdOx1 (AstraZeneca) vaccine followed by an mRNA vaccine induced stronger immune responses than did the homologous ChAdOx1 vaccine series, according to recent immunogenicity studies.

Thanks, would change my handle to MCSuperImmune, but pretty sure somehow that would jinx me.

Oh for fuck's sake.,

Quote

SIAP. Been on here often recently and missed this if so.

My wife came home today and said a client mentioned this happened to their daughter. Supposedly a magnet is sticking to injection sites. I hadn't heard this one yet.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/05/18/covid-19-vaccine-magnet-challenge-videos-claim-magnets-stick-to-arms-after-vaccination/amp/

https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3200126

The Dept. of Veterans Affairs announced today they're going to require all healthcare employees to be vaccinated. 

Meanwhile, NYC and California announced all city/state employees and healthcare workers will be required to either get vaccinated or submit to weekly testing.

In encouraging news, Google searches for vaccine appointments are picking back up. Sunday saw the highest number of doses reported in over 3 weeks.

US now at 69% of adults over 18 having received one dose, 60% are fully vaccinated. 89.5% of seniors over 65 have received one dose with 80% fully-vaxxed.

 

1 hour ago, Storm the Field said:

Sunday saw the highest number of doses reported in over 3 weeks.

Per my anti-vax.  Hospitals are cooking the books on new infections, hospitalizations, and  deaths as a scare tactic to get people to take the vaccine.  

2 hours ago, midtown said:

Per my anti-vax.  Hospitals are cooking the books on new infections, hospitalizations, and  deaths as a scare tactic to get people to take the vaccine.  

States are actually doing the opposire right now

4 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

Oh for fuck's sake.,

https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3200126

We sure about this secsecsec thing?

45 minutes ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

We sure about this secsecsec thing?

I mean, I don't oppose proof of vaccination just for aggy on Game Days.

Edited July 26, 2021 by shnsajax

More on mixing J&J with Pfizer/Moderna:

Quote

 

HEALTH AND SCIENCE
Americans are ‘mixing and matching’ Covid vaccines over concerns about the delta variant

Dr. Angela Rasmussen, a virologist at Georgetown University, received a booster shot of Pfizer and BioNTech’s Covid-19 vaccine in late June, two months after she got Johnson & Johnson’s single dose.

Rasmussen picked J&J in April, when she was living in Seattle, because she was soon moving to Canada. She was concerned she wouldn’t be able to get the Pfizer vaccine, which requires two doses, due to the supply constraints in Canada at the time. J&J’s vaccine only requires one dose and recipients are considered fully vaccinated two weeks after receiving the shot.

But Rasmussen quickly changed her mind about getting Pfizer’s vaccine once she arrived in Canada. Delta, the highly transmissible variant first found in India that’s now in at least 124 countries, had begun making headlines, and studies at the time suggested a single dose of a Covid vaccine wouldn’t be enough protection.

“Once the supply issues were addressed here in Canada and there really wasn’t a supply shortage of the mRNA vaccines, I decided to go get a Pfizer shot just because I thought that at the very worst, it couldn’t hurt,” she told CNBC in a phone interview.

Some Americans say they are finding ways to get additional doses of the Covid vaccines, with some even going as far as receiving the extra shots from different companies. The thought is that by “mixing and matching” vaccines that use different platforms, people may be able to get broader protection against the coronavirus and its new variants. J&J’s vaccine uses an adenovirus, while Pfizer’s and Moderna’s two-dose vaccines use mRNA technology. It highlights the growing anxiety many Americans have over variants, including delta, already the dominant form of the disease in the U.S.

The practice is nothing new in other parts of the world. Last month, Germany’s government said Chancellor Angela Merkel received Moderna’s shot in June after getting AstraZeneca’s in April. Other countries, such as Italy, are also allowing those under the age of 60 who received a first dose of AstraZeneca’s vaccine to get a different shot when they get their second dose. South Korea said last month it would allow some 760,000 people to get different jabs because of shipment delays there.

Executives from Pfizer, Moderna and J&J have said they expect Americans will need booster shots, and Pfizer has said it plans to ask the FDA to authorize boosters as it sees signs of waning immunity. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention does not currently recommend Americans mix Covid shots in most circumstances, and federal health officials say booster doses of the vaccines are not needed for otherwise healthy people at this time, although they may recommend it for the elderly or people with compromised immunity.

Since Rasmussen received her booster shot, a new study has suggested the J&J vaccine is much less effective against the delta and lambda variants than against the original virus. The researchers who led the study, which has not yet been peer-reviewed, now say they hope J&J recipients will eventually receive a booster shot of the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines.

To be sure, the new research is at odds with a study from the company, which found the shot is effective against delta, especially against severe disease and hospitalization, even eight months after inoculation. It is likely to reignite the debate of mixing and matching shots in the U.S. as the highly contagious delta variant continues to spread across the U.S.

“I would guess that those who received a single dose of Johnson & Johnson may need a booster of an mRNA vaccine than other people need boosters,” said Dr. Isaac Bogoch, an infectious disease professor at the University of Toronto, who was not involved in either study.

It’s important for scientists and public health officials to be “open-minded” about it, Bogoch said, adding he’s waiting for real-world data to back up the new study.

Israel also released preliminary data last week that showed the Pfizer vaccine is just 39% effective against the virus there, which officials attributed to the rapidly spreading delta variant. Its effectiveness against severe disease and death remained high, the data showed. U.S. and world health officials said they are looking at the Israeli research, which was not peer-reviewed and was scant on details.

The National Institutes of Health began an early stage trial in June looking at mixing and matching Covid vaccines. The trial will include adults who have received one of the three Covid vaccine regimens currently available in the U.S.: J&J, Moderna or Pfizer. Scientists there are trying to determine whether there are any advantages or drawbacks to using different boosters, according to the NIH.

Separate research from the United Kingdom published last month found mixing doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine, which shares similar technology to J&J’s, and an mRNA vaccine produced a stronger immune response against the coronavirus spike protein than just getting two doses of AstraZeneca. The study, called Com-COV, compared mixed two-dose schedules of Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines.

Another study, published in Nature Medicine on Monday, found adding the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines as a second dose to J&J led to a better immune response than just two doses of the J&J vaccine and was well tolerated. The vaccinations were performed between Jan. 10 and April 8.

Immunologically, it “makes sense” to follow up one vaccination with another shot that uses a different platform, according to Yale immunologist Akiko Iwasaki.

“The reason for this is because if you’re using a vectored vaccine, like the J&J or AstraZeneca, which use adenovirus, you generate antibodies against the vector so that your second shot with the same vector makes it less likely to induce a robust immune response,” she said.

Aside from Covid, mixing and matching vaccines that use different platforms is not something unusual, Iwasaki said. Looking at vaccine studies and trials for HIV, it’s “almost standard that people use different platforms to prime and boost,” she said.

Mixing vaccines may prevent the body from causing a sort of “mediated clearance of the vaccine itself,” where the shot is less effective, Iwasaki said.

“The spike protein that is used for the J&J and Moderna and Pfizer vaccines are virtually identical, so it is not like you’re getting cross-reactive protection against different variants,” she said. “But if you generate much higher levels of neutralizing antibodies, it will find epitopes in the variant that can also protect against the variant.”

Mixing the Covid vaccines appears to be safe but at the same time “we don’t know what we don’t know,” according to Dr. Dan Barouch, an immunologist at Harvard Medical School who helped develop the J&J vaccine.

“There’s limited data on the safety or efficacy of the approach, but theoretically, there is no reason that I can see that raises major safety concerns,” Barouch said. “But there are theoretical benefits in terms of the immune responses and potential improvement of efficacy.”

The World Health Organization’s chief scientist, Dr. Soumya Swaminathan, recently advised individuals against mixing and matching Covid vaccines from different manufacturers, saying the practice is a “data-free zone” and immunogenicity and safety both still need to be evaluated further.

“It’s a little bit of a dangerous trend here,” Swaminathan said during an online WHO briefing on July 13.

Still, some doctors are already suggesting immunosuppressed populations, such as patients living with cancer or those who have had organ transplants, might benefit from an extra dose of the same or another Covid vaccine, Barouch said.

A CDC advisory group on Thursday considered whether fully vaccinated Americans with weakened immune systems need a booster dose of a Covid vaccine after data shows they are less likely to have antibodies to fight the disease and more likely to suffer from a so-called breakthrough infection.

“The hardest to vaccinate people are those who are immunosuppressed,” Barouch said, adding early data shows the approach of mixing and matching vaccines may be safe and effective for those populations.

Rasmussen, the virologist at Georgetown University, said she didn’t experience any safety concerns or side effects, besides a sore arm, after getting a booster of Pfizer’s vaccine.

Matthew, a retired photographer from Los Angles, also said he didn’t experience any bad side effects after receiving a booster shot. Similar to Rasmussen, Matthew received a single dose of Pfizer’s vaccine several weeks after getting a single dose of J&J.

He said he decided to get a booster shot because he worried about his level of protection against variants. After speaking with his doctor about mixing and matching inoculations, Matthew concluded it was safe to get his second shot from Pfizer.

“When I got Johnson & Johnson I was tired for maybe a couple of days and I had intense pain in my calves for almost 48 hours,” said Matthew, 70, who asked that his last name not be used to protect his privacy. “I felt fine after the second dose.”

Dr. Paul Offit, who advises the FDA on Covid vaccines, said the CDC should provide “more direction” and create guidelines for how providers should be thinking about mixing and matching vaccines. Though he said he doesn’t expect the CDC to endorse the practice until there is more data and the U.S. studies are complete.

“It would be helpful to have some guidelines from the CDC on how to think about this,” he said. “More importantly, it would be helpful to have studies that are in hand, that are perfectly done that we can actually answer some of these questions.”

Likewise, Barouch said he doesn’t expect any new recommendations until there is more data.

“There’s going to be a lot of data soon and then there will be data-driven recommendations,” he said.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/26/delta-people-are-mixing-and-matching-covid-vaccines-over-concerns-about-variant.html

7 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

It would be helpful to have some guidelines from the CDC on how to think about this

The CDC and FDA are going to get right on that.  For both better and for worse, they are extremely conservative entities.  Recall the initial EUA.  The slow and deliberate process at the FDA/CDC costs us precious weeks on the front end of a process that had a foregone conclusion. It is what it is, and good reasons for their approach.  But people waiting on the FDA/CDC for guidance will be on the tail end of bull rush.   

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The CDC and FDA are going to get right on that.  For both better and for worse, they are extremely conservative entities.  Recall the initial EUA.  The slow and deliberate process at the FDA/CDC costs us precious weeks on the front end of a process that had a foregone conclusion. It is what it is, and good reasons for their approach.  But people waiting on the FDA/CDC for guidance will be on the tail end of bull rush.   

Have you seen any interesting COVID19 vaccines in development that expand on the partial spike protein target?

15 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Have you seen any interesting COVID19 vaccines in development that expand on the partial spike protein target?

MRNA pumped out a variant version months ago but haven't heard anything more since then.  Seems like maybe someone should start testing a delta variant spike.  And looking forward there are a few different mutations that delta does not contain that if combined with some of the cleavage site mutations could theoretically represent the "super-variant".  That largely theoretical, and I think/hope that delta is the last major wave before we have widespread immunity, but seems prudent to look around the corner and maybe generate a few of those sequences in anticipation. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Anastasis

1 hour ago, shnsajax said:

I mean, I don't oppose proof of vaccination just for aggy on Game Days.

Also proof of parvo vax and a flea dip within the past 60 days. 

11 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

MRNA pumped out a variant version months ago but haven't heard anything more since then.  Seems like maybe someone should start testing a delta variant spike.  And looking forward there are a few different mutations that delta does not contain that could theoretically represent the "super-variant".  That largely theoretical, and I think/hope that delta is the last major wave before we have widespread immunity, but seems prudent to look around the corner and maybe generate a few of those sequences in anticipation. 

This list doesn't sound great to me https://www.ft.com/content/846c00e4-06ba-417d-978c-98caef7f605a . I would prefer additional targets for mRNA vaccines. I am not confident that targeting a portion of the spike protein will eradicate COVID19. I also don't think whole virus vaccines will be the answer: In fact, I think they will be worse than what is on the market.

No idea how to fix this. Exponential bad because spread will have disproportionate impact.

Some of the hesitant anti-vaxxers certainly take a Pfizer pill to get an erection - but they won't take Pfizer shot to save their lives from Covid. 

I suppose it's comforting to something in this loco world remains undefeated . . . 

On 7/26/2021 at 3:11 PM, midtown said:

Per my anti-vax.  Hospitals are cooking the books on new infections, hospitalizations, and  deaths as a scare tactic to get people to take the vaccine.  

As I Pfizer shareholder, I support this.

28 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

As I Pfizer shareholder, I support this.

Cuz Merika!

44 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Some of the hesitant anti-vaxxers certainly take a Pfizer pill to get an erection - but they won't take Pfizer shot to save their lives from Covid. 

I suppose it's comforting to something in this loco world remains undefeated . . . 

With side effects that are a lot more risky and common. Just for the advantage of a temporary boner.

On 7/26/2021 at 11:24 AM, Lobo said:

Yeah, the 12-18 group is still hard to get a read on with regard to vaccine necessity.  Any parent with a kid that age is facing a conundrum I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.  My oldest is 6.5 right now.  If a deployable vaccine for her age group is available at year's end, which it looks like it will be...we'll still wring our hands over what to do for awhile.  It'll be gut-wrenching and I'm not looking forward to that window of time.  

Now when it comes to parents who are worried like me, but they themselves are not getting the vaccine.  I think it's funny to cheer for their demise and laugh and piss on their graves.  You got kids who can still catch it at home, you got grandparents down the street who are medically vulnerable, and this is the big stand you take in life.  You never made anything of yourself but now you decide to be bold?  Fuck you, choke out and die you fat fucking pricks.  

Fun fact, my niece got COVID and had carditis. She then got vaccinated and got carditis. Sucks for her but she is getting better.

On 7/26/2021 at 12:51 PM, MC Fresh Breath said:

I put this in another thread, but:

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/20/dr-vin-gupta-encourages-jj-vaccine-recipients-to-get-a-pfizer-or-moderna-booster.html

 

And what others have posted.  I had my J&J in April.  Got a Moderna shot on Friday.   No dl check here in Oregon.  Just marked 'no' on the application where it asked if I had received a covid vaccine before.   I haven't found a single article saying that the idea is harmful, and other countries are already doing it with the AZ one, like Anastasis said.

Have any others tried this in TX?  I got the J&J in March and would really like some options?

 

41 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

Have any others tried this in TX? 

 

Someone in one of the other Covid threads has. 

On 7/26/2021 at 11:24 AM, Lobo said:

Yeah, the 12-18 group is still hard to get a read on with regard to vaccine necessity.  Any parent with a kid that age is facing a conundrum I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.  My oldest is 6.5 right now.  If a deployable vaccine for her age group is available at year's end, which it looks like it will be...we'll still wring our hands over what to do for awhile.  It'll be gut-wrenching and I'm not looking forward to that window of time.  

Now when it comes to parents who are worried like me, but they themselves are not getting the vaccine.  I think it's funny to cheer for their demise and laugh and piss on their graves.  You got kids who can still catch it at home, you got grandparents down the street who are medically vulnerable, and this is the big stand you take in life.  You never made anything of yourself but now you decide to be bold?  Fuck you, choke out and die you fat fucking pricks.  

Somewhat on topic . . .  I found out that someone we knew in passing a few years ago died from COVID yesterday.  He (probably (late 40s early 50s) had two kids, 17 and 13 or thereabouts.  The 13 year old was at summer camp and there was an outbreak.  When he came home, he gave COVID to his brother and his dad.  Not sure if dad was vaxxed.  He was a cowboy-type aggy.  So I have my suspicions that he was not.  Anyway, things took a turn and dad ended up in the hospital.  He died twelve days later.  He was a pretty nice guy.  And while we never would say it was the kid's fault, you know that kid has to be agonizing over that.  Bad enough to lose your dad at that age.  Worse when he died from a disease he caught from you.  

 

Cowboy-type aggy 99% probability NOT vaccinated.

3 minutes ago, XYZ said:

Cowboy-type aggy 99% probability NOT vaccinated.

Sigh.  I know.  Be a lot cooler if he had.  But oh well.  Hope it was worth it.

32 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Sigh.  I know.  Be a lot cooler if he had.  But oh well.  Hope it was worth it.

Well, he's now at the big Dixie Chicken in the sky.

1 hour ago, Bevo said:

Fun fact, my niece got COVID and had carditis. She then got vaccinated and got carditis. Sucks for her but she is getting better.

This is a good example of someone who probably should have passed on the vaccine. 

It's easy to paint caricatures of anti-vaxxers, but there was some article from the Atlantic that was posted on Doximity about vaccination. The comment section was all physicians posting under their real names. Not surprising but still eye-opening. I'm not sure you can totally explain this by class status or educational achievement. The tribalism along political lines really trumps everything else.

Pfizer booster trial update

Almost certainly got the booster yesterday and not placebo.  Feel very similar to earlier shots.  Not awful, but not great.  

Also had my own antibody test drawn about 2 hours prior to getting the boost.

Spike RBD antibodies present with titer of 1,131 (almost 1 year after vax).  “Positive” value for assay is greater than 0.7.  I might get another titer drawn in a month to see how much it went up or if I could possibly break the machine.  

So, I’ve got that going for me, which is nice.  
 

 

1 hour ago, Muy Frio said:

This is a good example of someone who probably should have passed on the vaccine. 

Yeah, but she has been going to the best in Houston and getting advice from them. She was an outlier because she is 15 and an elite athlete and the number of 14-15 year olds who are elite athletes who have minor Covid systems but develop heart issues is small. Chitown doc said what he saw in practice was transient and similar to Kawasaki disease. But anyway, it is something doctors study rather than something they know definitively.

1 hour ago, Heme Doc said:

Pfizer booster trial update

Almost certainly got the booster yesterday and not placebo.  Feel very similar to earlier shots.  Not awful, but not great.  

Also had my own antibody test drawn about 2 hours prior to getting the boost.

Spike RBD antibodies present with titer of 1,131 (almost 1 year after vax).  “Positive” value for assay is greater than 0.7.  I might get another titer drawn in a month to see how much it went up or if I could possibly break the machine.  

So, I’ve got that going for me, which is nice.  
 

 

How is the new 5G update? 

Fascinating stats from NYC: ~40% of NYC school teachers and public hospital workers have not been vaccinated. Among NYPD and NYFD, ~60% have not been vaccinated. MTA workers are vaccinated at the highest rate but on ~65%. Pretty shocking in the area with the highest mortality rate.

 

1 hour ago, naija said:

It's easy to paint caricatures of anti-vaxxers, but there was some article from the Atlantic that was posted on Doximity about vaccination. The comment section was all physicians posting under their real names. Not surprising but still eye-opening. I'm not sure you can totally explain this by class status or educational achievement. The tribalism along political lines really trumps everything else.

Agreed. The problem from day one, virtually everyone's response was reactionary. Our public health leaders did not help but constantly contradicting themselves and making political statements masked (pun intended) as "science." I have tended to mute the experts in the favor of data because the "experts" do not agree and frequently change their guidance. Look at my post above - ironically those most loudly calling for mass vaccinations and those one would think would be 100% onboard show vaccine hesitancy inline with the general public.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Harrison Bergeron

21 minutes ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

those most loudly calling for mass vaccinations and those, [who] one would think would be 100% onboard, show vaccine hesitancy

No foundation. (I added commas and a "who" to your conclusion)

Where is your data showing those "loudly calling for mass vaccinations" are vaccine hesitant?

Shift your focus to the possibility that those calling for shots in arms see the danger of vaccine hesitancy in their backyard - so they are vocal about that problem. 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by washparkhorn

So I'm not talking about the social phenomenon when you meet somebody and they can't help but work it into a conversation that they are either doing cross-fit, a vegan, or have lived/currently live in New York.  But the non-vaccine takers, some of them, are taking on a persona kinda like that.  As we've stated on here, many are not taking it for political or historical reasons.  I get it, I don't agree with it-but we knew that was gonna happen. 

But I'm noticing this new group that I'm meeting out 'n about now that I'm back in person for many things.  The groups and businesses I meet with in person are from all political walks of life, all socio-economic backgrounds, certainly myriad ethnic groups and nationalities.  So it's not just blue Austin in red Texas.  But I've noticed people are starting to drop in a conversation that they are't vaccinated, and will often say the reason they have not gotten it yet or maybe will never get it.  But it's happened to me about 10-20 times now and there's this look in their eyes to a person that tacitly says, "I'm proud to make a choice for me."  And it's not that angry political rationale, it's just this thing they want you to casually know about them because they think it makes them seem different or interesting.  Mostly younger folks, under 40.  But some older than me.  It's this new sort of "I don't really have anything else interesting going on right now so instead of a new tattoo or showing people photos of my artwork, this is going to be my social differentiator...I see things other people don't see about the vaccine so I'm not getting it and I am proud so-and-so, blah blah blah."  

It's obviously different from shit people write online because they are there in front of you, dominating the conversation with a tidbit that kinda fucks over other people, you know...in the same fucking conversation.  We've been reading from people for months online who aren't doing it for various reasons.  But I'm starting to see that, even apolitically, it happen in person.  It's this new thing that makes you edgy in public.  I don't get it, but it's getting more and more frequent.  yet again, another thing I simply did not have the imagination to fathom.   

13 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

No foundation. (I added commas and a "who" to your conclusion)

Where is your data showing those "loudly calling for mass vaccinations" are vaccine hesitant?

Shift your focus to the possibility that those calling for shots in arms see the danger of vaccine hesitancy in their backyard - so they are vocal about that problem. 

 

https://www.nea.org/resource-library/nea-position-covid-19-vaccines + see the statistics above.

 

Spoiler

(NYC teachers are at ~60% vaccination rate.)

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Harrison Bergeron

13 minutes ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

[doesn't answer question]

Looking for data supporting your point that the loudest individuals wanting shots in arm are vaccine hesitant. Got any or was your conclusion poorly worded?

Edited July 28, 2021 by washparkhorn

4 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Looking for data supporting your point that the loudest individuals wanting shots in arm are vaccine hesitant. Got any or was your conclusion poorly worded?

Okay. I will always admit that my conclusions likely are poorly worded, and as a data guy I will be the first to admit one cannot quantify "loudest" in this sense. So fair point. So that being said if you'll forgive my imprecision and appreciate my acknowledgement, I think reasonable people can agree that teachers have been quite hysterical about returning to work, so does not feel like a huge stretch they might be among the most vaccinated as a group. But feel free to agree to disagree.

24 minutes ago, Lobo said:

So I'm not talking about the social phenomenon when you meet somebody and they can't help but work it into a conversation that they are either doing cross-fit, a vegan, or have lived/currently live in New York.  But the non-vaccine takers, some of them, are taking on a persona kinda like that.  As we've stated on here, many are not taking it for political or historical reasons.  I get it, I don't agree with it-but we knew that was gonna happen. 

But I'm noticing this new group that I'm meeting out 'n about now that I'm back in person for many things.  The groups and businesses I meet with in person are from all political walks of life, all socio-economic backgrounds, certainly myriad ethnic groups and nationalities.  So it's not just blue Austin in red Texas.  But I've noticed people are starting to drop in a conversation that they are't vaccinated, and will often say the reason they have not gotten it yet or maybe will never get it.  But it's happened to me about 10-20 times now and there's this look in their eyes to a person that tacitly says, "I'm proud to make a choice for me."  And it's not that angry political rationale, it's just this thing they want you to casually know about them because they think it makes them seem different or interesting.  Mostly younger folks, under 40.  But some older than me.  It's this new sort of "I don't really have anything else interesting going on right now so instead of a new tattoo or showing people photos of my artwork, this is going to be my social differentiator...I see things other people don't see about the vaccine so I'm not getting it and I am proud so-and-so, blah blah blah."  

It's obviously different from shit people write online because they are there in front of you, dominating the conversation with a tidbit that kinda fucks over other people, you know...in the same fucking conversation.  We've been reading from people for months online who aren't doing it for various reasons.  But I'm starting to see that, even apolitically, it happen in person.  It's this new thing that makes you edgy in public.  I don't get it, but it's getting more and more frequent.  yet again, another thing I simply did not have the imagination to fathom.   

Virtue signaling has been a key part of Covid-19 since day one, so not terribly surprised.

Just now, Harrison Bergeron said:

Virtue signaling has been a key part of Covid-19 since day one, so not terribly surprised.

Agreed.  Fair point.  But it was in the form of mask, no mask, staying home, not staying home, etc.  This is an actual verbal (again, not written online) declarations made in conversations and situations where it's kind of appropriate because it's topical but also awkward for everybody else in the conversation/room.  But I guess you're right, this is just the next step in how we plant flags around this whole debacle.  I guess I was also more surprised by who was saying what.  Wasn't always the guy you had pegged as the middle-aged, anti-science curmuddgeon.  Many times, it's the hipster 25-year old building manager who just cleverly works it into the property tour that she and her officemates have chosen not to get the shots because they just feel like it infringes upon their sense of adventure in the new world (yeah, that happened downtown the other day to me)

1 minute ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

I think reasonable people can agree that teachers have been quite hysterical about returning to work, so does not feel like a huge stretch they might be among the most vaccinated as a group. But feel free to agree to disagree.

You are obviously a bright guy - I think we can all agree on that. That's not the objection to your conclusion. 

You make the same leap here with teachers.

Those factual holes stand out in any analysis. The data may support your conclusion. Find out and follow that method of truth seeking.

With the best intent, you are bright enough to fuck around and find out. The data may vindicate you - or - you will reach another conclusion based on the data. Rinse and repeat.  

Remember your Aristotle - a conclusion provides the opportunity to examine that conclusion from a different perspective. 

14 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Many times, it's the hipster 25-year old building manager who just cleverly works it into the property tour that she and her officemates have chosen not to get the shots because they just feel like it infringes upon their sense of adventure in the new world (yeah, that happened downtown the other day to me)

Photographic evidence of the suspected perpetrators or a physical description? 

32 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Agreed.  Fair point.  But it was in the form of mask, no mask, staying home, not staying home, etc.  This is an actual verbal (again, not written online) declarations made in conversations and situations where it's kind of appropriate because it's topical but also awkward for everybody else in the conversation/room.  But I guess you're right, this is just the next step in how we plant flags around this whole debacle.  I guess I was also more surprised by who was saying what.  Wasn't always the guy you had pegged as the middle-aged, anti-science curmuddgeon.  Many times, it's the hipster 25-year old building manager who just cleverly works it into the property tour that she and her officemates have chosen not to get the shots because they just feel like it infringes upon their sense of adventure in the new world (yeah, that happened downtown the other day to me)

I think that's the inherent weaknesses of trying to put people in simple boxes (as we all do and have forever). If you look at the data, it actually bears out your experience: vaccination rates heavily decline with age, so one would expect a hipster to have a lower Pr(vaccination) than a middle-aged person according to the data. Similarly, the biggest gap between the memes and the data is that anti-vaxxers predominately are deplorable MAGA people ... unless one believes deplorable MAGA folks are African-Americans and Latinos in large, Democratic cities. Some of the lower vaccination rates are in places like Chicago, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and New York (and the racial gaps in terms of hesitancy are obvious across the U.S.). 

That being said, I generally find it weird for people to discuss their personal health decisions regardless of topic. I never get the flu vaccine for my own reasons, but I never volunteered that to friends much less strangers. What I found most interested about the New York data is I suspect there is a big gap between what some are virtue signaling and what actually is occurring (said another way a lot of the people that post the vaccine Facebook theme have not been vaccinated).