COVID-19 vaccine discussion

I know it will never happen but wouldn’t break my heart if doctors started refusing treatment for patients with covid who were too stupid to get the damn shot.

I 100% believe insurance should not cover covid treatment if you aren’t vaccinated.

Maybe a federal mandate could read that you don’t have to get vaccinated, but you waive your right to treatment if you don’t. That might get some folks to reconsider.

7 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Counterpoint:

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762

tldr: an Israeli study found the opposite. 40% of new patients were vaccinated, vs 1% that were previously infected.

Thank you for the link that frustratingly does not link to the data it's basing it's claims on, but I'll go with AP's assessment of your (unspoken) claim of "vaccines don't work" based on the Israeli data

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-644288348135

CLAIM: The newest Israeli data on COVID-19 infections indicate a complete vaccine failure on every level. The data from Israel shows that nearly all serious cases and deaths are among the vaccinated.

AP’S ASSESSMENT: Missing context. The claim ignores the fact that Israel has only a fraction of the COVID-19 cases that it had in January, before vaccines were widespread. Furthermore, the majority of adults in Israel are now vaccinated with two Pfizer shots. No vaccine is perfect at preventing breakthrough cases, but the data shows vaccines are reducing the number of people who are severely ill, hospitalized or die from the virus.

Mask mandates certainly had an effect on mask wearing in CO.  Once the mandates dropped, mask wearing fell off a cliff and hasn't really come back (although it is coming back lately, but still maybe at 20% now unless stores require it).

Yeah I should clarify that I didn’t visit every town in Georgia and that I live in an affluent suburb full of transplants. I’m sure the story was different outside of the city.

27 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

The jury is still out on that right? It seems it’s worth seeing the outcomes of all the current clinical trials under way.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011

“Taken together these results demonstrate that ivermectin has antiviral action against the SARS-CoV-2 clinical isolate in vitro, with a single dose able to control viral replication within 24–48 h in our system.”

Before wildcat shows up in hysterics: I also think everyone should get vaccinated, and myself and my whole family got vaccinated as soon as we could. We took my 12 year old three days after his birthday.

I mean, I guess, but the FDA advises against it and another (non-peer reviewed) study found it had no effect whatsoever. But seriously, horse paste. 
 

23 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Yeah but that's probably correlation not causation.  People stopped wearing masks not necessarily because the mandate went away (that's some people, sure) but because the numbers were such and people with vaccine's had strong immunity such that wearing a mask didn't make sense. Now that people think it makes sense they are putting masks back on. I'm sure if the numbers continue to climb more people would do it, but obviously less than with a mandate.  

Anecdotally around North East Houston burbs last weekend mask wearing was about as high as I've ever seen it- and that's with no mandate or requirement.  

Nope.  Literally the day the mandate dropped, mask wearing fell off a cliff.  Maybe mandates wouldn't work in Texas, but they worked well up here.

It's also pre-print and not peer reviewed. But since it confirms your beliefs, it must be right! Right?

A huge part of “following the science” is testing the status quo. I’m curious about the outcomes of the ivermectin clinical trials but I’m also pro-vax.

No one should be substituting ivermectin for the vaccine at this point.

I'm sure Tractor Supply is making money off of idiot ivermectin sales but I'm surprised they haven't pulled it off the shelf due to legal risks. The person will get laughed out of court but Tractor Supply will spend time and money fighting the eventual lawsuits.

2 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Nope.  Literally the day the mandate dropped, mask wearing fell off a cliff.  Maybe mandates wouldn't work in Texas, but they worked well up here.

Even here, during the time when HEB was requiring them, it was literally 99.9%, I saw 2 people without in dozens of shopping trips. Now that it's "encouraged", I would say it is 50/50 at best. 

Thank you for the link that frustratingly does not link to the data it's basing it's claims on, but I'll go with AP's assessment of your (unspoken) claim of "vaccines don't work" based on the Israeli data
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-644288348135

CLAIM: The newest Israeli data on COVID-19 infections indicate a complete vaccine failure on every level. The data from Israel shows that nearly all serious cases and deaths are among the vaccinated.

AP’S ASSESSMENT: Missing context. The claim ignores the fact that Israel has only a fraction of the COVID-19 cases that it had in January, before vaccines were widespread. Furthermore, the majority of adults in Israel are now vaccinated with two Pfizer shots. No vaccine is perfect at preventing breakthrough cases, but the data shows vaccines are reducing the number of people who are severely ill, hospitalized or die from the virus.

Listen, I know you’re young and when I was your age I didn’t have much wiggle room in my worldview either. But your schtick is old. Exactly nowhere have I said that vaccines don’t work, in fact I have said repeatedly that everyone should get vaccinated (like me and my family). So take your “unspoken” and shove it up your ass.

1 minute ago, Buzzrock said:

Listen, I know you’re young and when I was your age I didn’t have much wiggle room in my worldview either. But your schtick is old. Exactly nowhere have I said that vaccines don’t work, in fact I have said repeatedly that everyone should get vaccinated (like me and my family). So take your “unspoken” and shove it up your ass.

So you believe that vaccines work, but you just like posting and repeating antivax talking points and analysis. Is this like a both sides thing or something? I don't get it. 

9 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

A huge part of “following the science” is testing the status quo. I’m curious about the outcomes of the ivermectin clinical trials but I’m also pro-vax.

No one should be substituting ivermectin for the vaccine at this point.

I agree we should be following the ivermectin trials as well - I saw one the other day that said it is ineffective, but trying to find it just led to conspiratard sites all over.  We need good care options on top of the vaccines.  But for the people who really want to believe in the ivermectin trials (that aren't done yet AFAIK), but dismiss the vaccine trials (and the 4.5 billion shots that have been administered to date) can fuck right off because they're not interested in science or finding the truth, they're interested in supporting a belief they have in lieu of actual science.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Chewbacca

27 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Maybe a federal mandate could read that you don’t have to get vaccinated, but you waive your right to treatment if you don’t. That might get some folks to reconsider.

EMTALA says you can’t have such mandate.

37 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Counterpoint:

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762

tldr: an Israeli study found the opposite. 40% of new patients were vaccinated, vs 1% that were previously infected.

thats also what the UK reported.  40% vaxed/60% unvaxed.  of course there are a ton more vaccinated people overall than unvaxed in Israel so the over percentage of vaxed that are in hospital is much much lower.

 

45 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

I show my ID and my registration form every time I sit down at a poker tournament. OMG PAPERS PLEASE NAZI NAZI

I was talking about a sporting event(in response to the discussion about sporting event, concert, movie) where I am going to watch not participate.  I've been to poker tournaments to watch and they have never asked for an ID.

Edited August 12, 2021 by dcar00

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

So you believe that vaccines work, but you just like posting and repeating antivax talking points and analysis. Is this like a both sides thing or something? I don't get it. 

Because saying "I believe in vaccines!" is just a cover for him to do what he really wants to do -- attack the vaccines at every turn.  It's the functional and intellectual equivalent of Ricky Bobby:

7 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

I agree we should be following the ivermectin trials as well - I saw one the other day that said it is ineffective, but trying to find it just led to conspiratard sites all over.  We need good care options on top of the vaccines.  But for the people who really want to believe in the ivermectin trials (that aren't done yet AFAIK), but dismiss the vaccine trials (and the 4.5 billion shots that have been administered to date) can fuck right off because they're not interested in science or finding the truth, they're interested in supporting a belief they have in lieu of actual science.

All of this.  I would love for an easy, existing medication to be an effective therapy against COVID.  Fuck, I'd love it if it was aspirin, invermectin, or vagisil.  IDGAF.  Run trials, test them.

But just understand, the science and study behind the vaccines -- of which literally BILLIONS of shots have been administered -- is overwhelming.  If you are going to believe real-world study on one, got to believe the other.

I couldn't take it any more.  I went ahead and sent Muy Frio to purgatory.

3 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

I couldn't take it any more.  I went ahead and sent Muy Frio to purgatory.

Damnit, Jesus. Muy Frio posts good stuff on the crypto thread. You could have put him on ignore.

Just now, XYZ said:

Damnit, Jesus. Muy Frio posts good stuff on the crypto thread. You could have put him on ignore.

Don't worry he'll just create another account.

6 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

I couldn't take it any more.  I went ahead and sent Muy Frio to purgatory.

2 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

That's precisely why you'll never get an answer.  Even he knows it's completely regarded.

When I ask my dad about things like that (he's vaccinated but still voted for Trump), if it's a question I know he can't logically answer, he'll just look at me with a blank face and say nothing.  He knows he can't defend it, so he just goes silent.  But he doesn't change his behavior, either.  I suspect @crimsonlonghorn would react similarly.

fwiw, he pm'd me.  i obviously won't break the unwritten rule of not doxxing pms because that's a bitch-made move....but paraphrasing the actual responsive part, he effectively just said i shouldn't care about what decisions others make in a public health crisis, that i can't definitely prove to him that everyone that got vaccinated aren't going to get cancer in 30 years despite having no idea what the long-term effects of the drugs used to save his life in the hospital were, and then boasted about how much better his antibodies are than vaccinated individuals now that he survived over a week in the hospital.  oh, and that pointing out hypocrisy is not a logical argument. 

7 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

I couldn't take it any more.  I went ahead and sent Muy Frio to purgatory.

2 hours ago, midtown said:

I think the whole ID issue has to do with people who are illogically adamant about having to prove they are vaccinated out of "privacy" when the same people willfully hand over data and "show their papers" all the time for the most common things and a lot of times when they aren't even required to do so. 

proving who you are with an ID is different. also, a private company can put restrictions as they see fit and someone can challenge it in court if they want.

ACL could be interesting.  if when someone purchased the ticket it didn't say they would have to show vax status yet they change that can I get my money back? My guess is they would likely do that.

My guess is that will become part of the "I agree to terms" checkbox.

2 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

Just found out that my unvaccinated aunt was admitted to the hospital yesterday.  Pretty healthy for a senior citizen, so maybe she gets through it. She knows 4 people who have died from COVID, still wouldn’t get the shot.  I am honestly at the point that I really don’t care what happens.

welcome to the team.

45 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Nope.  Literally the day the mandate dropped, mask wearing fell off a cliff.  Maybe mandates wouldn't work in Texas, but they worked well up here.

Right. But what I was saying is that mask wearing should have fallen off a cliff then because conditions up there didn't make it make sense. Now that conditions make sense mask wearing is going back up, correct?  It certainly is here. I can't imagine there aren't a ton of people bouncing around Denver in masks right now. 

23 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

thats also what the UK reported.  40% vaxed/60% unvaxed.  of course there are a ton more vaccinated people overall than unvaxed in Israel so the over percentage of vaxed that are in hospital is much much lower.

 

I was talking about a sporting event(in response to the discussion about sporting event, concert, movie) where I am going to watch not participate.  I've been to poker tournaments to watch and they have never asked for an ID.

Keep fucking that chicken.

SIAP, but I saw some statistics yesterday in this incredibly frustrating article that truly shocked me, which I didn't think was possible any more.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-08-09/la-na-least-vaccinated-covid-coronavirus

Miller County, Arkansas (Texarkana) has 9% of its population vaccinated. Dodge County, GA is at 5%!

I mean, I assumed there were places with like 20% vax rates, but dear God, I didn't think it was possible, in August 2021, to be at or below 10% in even the poorest rural shithole.

7 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Keep fucking that chicken.

WTF are you talking about.  that is what they/govt reported but since there are so many already vaxed than not vaxed the overall percentage of vaxed that are in the hospital is much much lower than not vaxed.

6 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

Dodge County, GA is at 5%!

They are dodging it obviously.

18 minutes ago, sidis said:

then boasted about how much better his antibodies are than vaccinated individuals now that he survived over a week in the hospital. 

For my final post. let me start by saying for the 100th time, that the vaccines do work in preventing severe disease, and if you haven’t had covid before there’s not a lot of reasons for an American adult to not get the vaccine. 
 

That said this is looking more and more like it’s the truth. From a favorite source of Med Twitter. 
 

Does anybody here really think previous infection and recovery from Covid doesn’t confer better immunity than that against symptomatic infection? Please. And over a much longer timeframe. People should fret a lot less over what previously infected people are doing with their bodies. 
 

Congrats @JesusSweatDuck you got me. Negged every post on every forum I had. Let the record show me posting a Cleveland Clinic study was the last straw. Certain data make people uncomfortable and angry here and I’m not sure why. I guess it’s the cognitive dissonance. Remove the source and remove your mental discomfort. Good bye now. 

Major study of Ivermectin, the anti-vaccine crowd's latest COVID drug, finds 'no effect whatsoever'

Quote

Ivermectin, the latest supposed treatment for COVID-19 being touted by anti-vaccination groups, had "no effect whatsoever" on the disease, according to a large patient study.

That's the conclusion of the Together Trial, which has subjected several purported nonvaccine treatments for COVID-19 to carefully designed clinical testing. The trial is supervised by McMaster University in Hamilton, Canada, and conducted in Brazil.

One of the trial's principal investigators, Edward Mills of McMaster, presented the results from the Ivermectin arms of the study at an Aug. 6 symposium sponsored by the National Institutes of Health.

Among the 1,500 patients in the study, he said, Ivermectin showed "no effect whatsoever" on the trial's outcome goals — whether patients required extended observation in the emergency room or hospitalization.

"In our specific trial," he said, "we do not see the treatment benefit that a lot of the advocates believe should have been" seen.

The study's results on Ivermectin haven't been formally published or peer-reviewed. Earlier peer-reviewed results from the Together Trial related to the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine, which had been touted as a miracle treatment for COVID by then-President Trump, were published in April; they showed no significant therapeutic effect on the virus.

The findings on Ivermectin are yet another blow for advocates promoting the drug as a magic bullet against COVID-19. Ivermectin was developed as a treatment for parasitical diseases, mostly for veterinarians, though it's also used against some human parasites.

Its repurposing as a COVID treatment began with a 2020 paper by Australian researchers who determined that at extremely high concentrations it showed some efficacy against the SARS-CoV-2 virus, which causes COVID, in the lab. But their research involved concentrations of the drug far beyond what could be achieved, much less tolerated, in the human body.

The Ivermectin camp, as I reported earlier, is heavily peopled by anti-vaccination advocates and conspiracy mongers. They maintain that the truth about the drug has been suppressed by agents of the pharmaceutical industry, which ostensibly prefers to collect the more generous profits that will flow from COVID vaccines.

The problem, however, is that the scientific trials cited by Ivermectin advocates have been too small or poorly documented to prove their case. One large trial from Egypt that showed the most significant therapeutic effect was withdrawn from its publishers due to accusations of plagiarism and bogus data.

Nevertheless, the advocates have continued to press their case — without necessarily observing accepted standards of scientific discourse. During the symposium, Mills complained that serious researchers looking into claims for COVID treatments have faced unprecedented abuse from advocates.

"I've had enough abuse and so have the other clinical trialists doing Ivermectin," he said. "Others working in this area have been threatened, their families have been threatened, they've been defamed," he said.

"I can think of no circumstances in the past where this kind of abuse has occurred to clinical trialists," he added. "We need to figure out a system where we have each others' backs on these issues, because the abuse that certain individuals have received is shocking." He referred to "accusations" and "swearing," though he gave no specific examples.

Mills said that his team's Ivermectin trial was altered after advocacy groups complained that it was too modest to achieve the results they expected. The trial originally tested the results from a single Ivermectin dose in January this year, but was later changed to involve one daily dose for three days of 400 micrograms of the drug for every kilogram (about 2.2 pounds) of the patients' weight, up to 90 kilograms.

Half the subjects received a placebo tablet. No clinical results were detected at either dosage, Mills said.

Asked whether he expected further criticism from Ivermectin advocates, he said it was all but inevitable. "The advocacy groups have set themselves up to be able to critique any clinical trial. They've already determined that any valid, well-designed critical trial was set up to fail."

 

3 minutes ago, Muy Frio said:

For my final post.

1 minute ago, Muy Frio said:

Does anybody here really think previous infection and recovery from Covid doesn’t confer better immunity than that against symptomatic infection? Please. And over a much longer timeframe. People should fret a lot less over what previously infected people are doing with their bodies. 
 

 

even if one were to accept that notion as true despite the unsettled nature of the claim...you are completely missing the point i was making.

boasting about having better antibodies than vaccinated people after spending over a week hospitalized in intensive care as a reason for not getting vaccinated beforehand is the type of thinking that personifies your target audience.

Topol is angling for 3rd boosters for everything.  I think that in the long run they will be needed, but he overemphasizes the data on PFE in drawing some of his conclusions and applying broadly to mRNA as a class.  There appear to be meaningful differences between PFE and MRNA (dose and interval most notably). Moderna leet level mRNA peoples gonna be last ones standing. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

WTF are you talking about.  that is what they/govt reported but since there are so many already vaxed than not vaxed the overall percentage of vaxed that are in the hospital is much much lower than not vaxed.

I'm talking about you fucking the chicken of no one asking for ID's for entry to concerts.  I take it you've not been to any concerts at clubs that are only 21 and over.

13 minutes ago, Muy Frio said:

For my final post. let me start by saying for the 100th time, that the vaccines do work in preventing severe disease, and if you haven’t had covid before there’s not a lot of reasons for an American adult to not get the vaccine. 
 

That said this is looking more and more like it’s the truth. From a favorite source of Med Twitter. 
 

Does anybody here really think previous infection and recovery from Covid doesn’t confer better immunity than that against symptomatic infection? Please. And over a much longer timeframe. People should fret a lot less over what previously infected people are doing with their bodies. 
 

Congrats @JesusSweatDuck you got me. Negged every post on every forum I had. Let the record show me posting a Cleveland Clinic study was the last straw. Certain data make people uncomfortable and angry here and I’m not sure why. I guess it’s the cognitive dissonance. Remove the source and remove your mental discomfort. Good bye now. 

You can always post in your new thread I set up for you in Purgatory.  At least until you get to -200.

Or until you create your next sock.

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

large Qatar experience

That sounds painful.

1 minute ago, DDD Dad said:

I'm talking about you fucking the chicken of no one asking for ID's for entry to concerts.  I take it you've not been to any concerts at clubs that are only 21 and over.

No I haven't.  If the club has a rule that it is 21 and over then yes they check ID for age, likely so they don't have to mess with checking for ID at the bar.

 

4 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

I'm talking about you fucking the chicken of no one asking for ID's for entry to concerts.  I take it you've not been to any concerts at clubs that are only 21 and over.

Lots of concerts gonna be checking vaccine status this summer. 

 

https://consequence.net/2021/08/aeg-vaccine-mandate/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

2 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

 

Lots of concerts gonna be checking vaccine status this summer. 

 

https://consequence.net/2021/08/aeg-vaccine-mandate/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Jason Isbell is doing it.  He moved his Fort Worth concert this weekend from Panther Island to Billy Bob's so he could.

Quote

As live music and entertainment try to make a comeback, Jason Isbell's making headlines, saying he'll require concertgoers to be fully vaccinated or have a negative COVID-19 test.

That means a change in plans for some of his events, including here in North Texas.

Wednesday, Panther Island Pavillion confirmed Jason Isbell's Friday concert has moved to Billy Bob's.

The honky-tonk said it stepped in to host Isbell after he announced he'll require fans to show proof of having received both doses of the COVID-19 vaccine, with a final dose no later than July 30, or to test negative within 72 hours of the event.

"It feels a little bit safer to me. That's all,” said Jason Isbell in an interview with MSNBC Monday.

Isbell said there's been pushback to his announcement in some states. And yesterday, his label announced on Twitter that an upcoming Houston show was canceled after the venue "was not willing to comply."

"You know, I'm all for freedom. But I think if you're dead, you don't have any freedoms at all. So it's probably pretty important to stay alive before you start questioning your liberty, you know,” he said.

Amid a surge in cases, other artists like Dead and Company and Bleachers have announced similar moves.

In Nashville, some venues will require proof of vaccination for entry to all shows.

Meanwhile, closer to home, there are now calls to cancel the sold-out Austin City Limits Music Festival.  

On his decision, Isbell said he's willing to lose shows and even face potential lawsuits if it means keeping those who come to see him safe.

“I'm not saying anybody has to get a vaccine or a negative test. But if you don't, then you don't get to come to the show. I think that makes sense,” Isbell said.

After Isbell's show, Billy Bob's said it will return to its usual concert protocols for a Casey Donahew concert on Saturday.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/jason-isbells-fort-worth-concert-to-relocate-after-announcing-vaccine-requirement/2716634/

Edited August 12, 2021 by DDD Dad

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I'm sure Tractor Supply is making money off of idiot ivermectin sales but I'm surprised they haven't pulled it off the shelf due to legal risks. The person will get laughed out of court but Tractor Supply will spend time and money fighting the eventual lawsuits.

The one in San Marcos has it behind a locked case to keep the dipshits at bay.

3 minutes ago, Gooby said:

The one in San Marcos has it behind a locked case to keep the dipshits at bay.

It’s usually locked anyway. 

4 hours ago, babysdaddy said:

The SEC is going to be first to full herd immunity given their behavior.  Delta getting them ready for football season

Tri Delta, it's not just a sorority, it's a motto!

13 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Jason Isbell is doing it.  He moved his Fort Worth concert this weekend from Panther Island to Billy Bob's so he could.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/jason-isbells-fort-worth-concert-to-relocate-after-announcing-vaccine-requirement/2716634/

The Woodlands cancelled his show claiming that they couldn't staff up to accommodate the request. 

My suggestion is that public events like concerts should be segregated. This side of the arena are for vaccinated people. This side is unvaccinated, and vaccinated if they really want to be there.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Nice Guy Eddie

22 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Topol is angling for 3rd boosters for everything.  I think that in the long run they will be needed, but he overemphasizes the data on PFE in drawing some of his conclusions and applying broadly to mRNA as a class.  There appear to be meaningful differences between PFE and MRNA (dose and interval most notably). Moderna leet level mRNA peoples gonna be last ones standing. 

 

 

Is there anything in there breaking down effectiveness after 4 months or 5 months vs after 6?

53 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Right. But what I was saying is that mask wearing should have fallen off a cliff then because conditions up there didn't make it make sense. Now that conditions make sense mask wearing is going back up, correct?  It certainly is here. I can't imagine there aren't a ton of people bouncing around Denver in masks right now. 

FWIW, I was in Denver last week and went into a whole foods before hitting the road to the mountains. Maybe 10-20% mask usage. I was very surprised.

23 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Topol is angling for 3rd boosters for everything.  I think that in the long run they will be needed, but he overemphasizes the data on PFE in drawing some of his conclusions and applying broadly to mRNA as a class.  There appear to be meaningful differences between PFE and MRNA (dose and interval most notably). Moderna leet level mRNA peoples gonna be last ones standing. 

I'm Pfizer fucked, wishing I had held out for Moderna.

 

1 minute ago, Foosters said:

FWIW, I was in Denver last week and went into a whole foods before hitting the road to the mountains. Maybe 10-20% mask usage. I was very surprised.

That’s pretty shocking to me. I guess they haven’t had a lot of cases up there?  

4 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That’s pretty shocking to me. I guess they haven’t had a lot of cases up there?  

According to my brother, who lives in Denver, they had not really seen much of the Delta uptick yet. I have zero idea if this is supported by facts.

8 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I'm Pfizer fucked, wishing I had held out for Moderna.

 

At least you're not double fucked like I am with J&J

43 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Major study of Ivermectin, the anti-vaccine crowd's latest COVID drug, finds 'no effect whatsoever'

 

1 minute ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

At least you're not double fucked like I am with J&J

You got the placebo. Thanks for helping!