COVID-19 vaccine discussion

15 minutes ago, Bookman said:

But is a virus really an "organism"?

I mean they're not alive, but they do reproduce. It's a quandary. 

2 hours ago, Bookman said:

But is a virus really an "organism"?

If you are asking the question, you have probably at one point learned the answer. But was what you learned correct?

https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/the-origins-of-viruses-14398218/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-viruses-alive-2004/

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/viruses-and-evolution

The first and second link are probably best. The second one starts off slow but gets better towards the end.

The better question to me is why viruses evolve. Why do they have a goal to reproduce? And do prions which are even less complex have a goal to reproduce? Viruses and prions move against the second order of thermodynamics. And thermodynamics may be a good way to look at biological complexes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4092032/ .

But, maybe evolution needs to be looked at in the opposite direction. Complex organisms such as humans, rid themselves of harmful viruses while non-harmful viruses can stay persistent. So perhaps humans and other organisms do the selection of viruses for them. This article touches this aspect of things: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41576-018-0055-5 .

Within this context, my original statement that viruses mutate in a way to increase spread without quickly killing the host is false. There are a decent number of examples where viruses become more lethal, including myxoma virus in rabbits and Marek’s disease in chicken. Some viruses provoke severe symptoms in their hosts that make it easier to transmit the virus to others. But those same symptoms can wind up killing the host. Maybe, viruses just wants to spread and have their genes replicated. If the best way for them to spread is by causing severe symptoms they will do that.

In the end, we don't know all the answers to virus evolution. Perhaps, we should not worry about it though - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-0690-4 .

 

Viruses don’t “want” anything.

Yeah my understanding is it’s all random. Sometimes they get lucky, sometimes they don’t.

9 minutes ago, XYZ said:

Viruses don’t “want” anything.

Correct. That is why I brought up thermodynamics. The goal of all organisms is to reproduce, but why is that? Superficially, one could say that it is to pass on its genes, yada, yada, yada. Personally, I think that is all wrong. Think of it as a selection process, not natural selection, just selection. If we all came from a bowl of soup, most molecules would break down from complex to less complex. But, out of chance some molecules would survive breaking down. They would gain energy and become more complex. The molecules that were able to copy themselves would thrive and continue to copy themselves. So imagine an environment where billions of molecules break down but a few don't. As time passes, most molecules breakdown. However, a few of them copy themselves. In such a system, over time, there would be many copies among a mass of small molecules and atoms. That is the beginning of life.

But, they weren't living. They just copied themselves. Does this sound like the start of viruses and prions? It should. There is no goal, just probabilities. Selection for the continuation of chemical amalgamations that can thrive in our harsh universe.

3 hours ago, Bevo said:

The goal of all organisms is to reproduce, but why is that?

Because sex feels good.

20 hours ago, Bookman said:

Because sex feels good.

 

Unless it's with South Austin's mom

boostered last night.  Arm sore and a bit of a headache but nothing like my 2nd shot.  

boostered last night.  Arm sore and a bit of a headache but nothing like my 2nd shot.  

Good. Then you should play with us tomorrow.

Headed down Friday 12/3 for the Pfizer booster.  Last Pfizer shot was in March sometime.

So Pfizer and Moderna both anticipate a modified vaccine in response to this latest variant in early 2021.  I'm scheduled to get my booster (Moderna) this Wednesday evening.  I got my second Moderna shot on Feb. 28.  Should I just go ahead and get the booster now, even though Moderna thinks its current vaccine might not be as effective against Omicron, or cancel the booster and wait on the new vaccine?

28 minutes ago, South Austin said:

So Pfizer and Moderna both anticipate a modified vaccine in response to this latest variant in early 2021.  I'm scheduled to get my booster (Moderna) this Wednesday evening.  I got my second Moderna shot on Feb. 28.  Should I just go ahead and get the booster now, even though Moderna thinks its current vaccine might not be as effective against Omicron, or cancel the booster and wait on the new vaccine?

Nobody knows concrete shit about VE against optimus prime, good or bad.  I'd do the booster and not wait. You can always level up next year if it is actually needed. But I am strongly inclined to gigavax fwiw.  

40 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I'd do the booster and not wait. You can always level up next year if it is actually needed. 

On 11/28/2021 at 5:27 AM, workswithseed said:

 It's a quandary. 

Like magnets 

4 hours ago, South Austin said:

So Pfizer and Moderna both anticipate a modified vaccine in response to this latest variant in early 2021.  I'm scheduled to get my booster (Moderna) this Wednesday evening.  I got my second Moderna shot on Feb. 28.  Should I just go ahead and get the booster now, even though Moderna thinks its current vaccine might not be as effective against Omicron, or cancel the booster and wait on the new vaccine?

I'm waiting to see what happens. I got my second Moderna in March. However, my antibody levels were really high during the Texas Cares blood draw and that is factoring into the decision as well.

If originally vaxed with Pfizer, what is the latest guidance or thoughts between getting another Pfizer or mixing it with a Moderna booster?  Someone asked today and I haven't kept up with that at all.

1 hour ago, Skipper said:

If originally vaxed with Pfizer, what is the latest guidance or thoughts between getting another Pfizer or mixing it with a Moderna booster?  Someone asked today and I haven't kept up with that at all.

I'm taking my Texas Cares survey blood draw thing tomorrow, and when I get my results back, I'll decide.  If they've noticeably dropped, I'll get a booster.  If not, I'll wait.

Three months out from my booster. Texas Cares study shows I'm at > 2500. Final draw in three months and I'll be six months out from booster. If they come out with some reformulated shot, I'm getting it.

I’d guess we are just going to get 6 month boosters for the rest of our lives as variant XXX comes out around 2040.

6 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

I’d guess we are just going to get 6 month boosters for the rest of our lives as variant XXX comes out around 2040.

So this new omicron (never mind skipping a greek letter or two  to avoid offending a ruler of a certain country) is here? I get my booster this week. Fuck the Chinese gov't. Not Chinese people. Endemic/pandemic. Fucked. Fuck the Chinese govt and anyone that supports them. Move all business to Mexico. 

2 hours ago, Nicole44 said:

So this new omicron (never mind skipping a greek letter or two  to avoid offending a ruler of a certain country) is here? I get my booster this week. Fuck the Chinese gov't. Not Chinese people. Endemic/pandemic. Fucked. Fuck the Chinese govt and anyone that supports them. Move all business to Mexico. 

Ditto for all of our domestic shitheads who have kicked and screamed and refused to take this seriously for the past two years/800k dead.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/coronavirus-nasal-vaccines.html

You’d Rather Get a Coronavirus Vaccine Through Your Nose

Some experts say a vaccine puffed in the nose would be better at protecting people from infection. But nasal vaccines won’t be ready right away.

 

The hope is that mucosal vaccines will do all that their intramuscular competitors can and more, mounting a multipronged attack on the coronavirus from the moment it tries to breach the body’s barriers, said Deepta Bhattacharya, an immunologist at the University of Arizona.

Under ideal circumstances, both types of vaccines would marshal a response in the blood. B cells, for example, would churn out antibodies — including a particularly potent disease-fighter called IgG — to roam the body in search of invaders to dispatch. Other cells, called T cells, would either help B cells produce antibodies or seek out and destroy infected cells.

But vaccines spritzed through the nose or mouth would also tap into another set of immune cells that hang around mucosal tissues. The B cells that reside here can make another type of antibody, called IgA, that plays a large role in bringing gut and airway pathogens to heel. And T cells in this neighborhood can memorize the features of specific pathogens, then spend the rest of their lives patrolling the places they first encountered them.

 

Spoiler

By Katherine J. Wu

Published July 14, 2020Updated July 16, 2020

Of the 150-plus coronavirus vaccines in development around the world, the lion’s share will rely on a needle prick to make their way into the body.

Most vaccines throughout history have been jabbed into the upper arm, often to great success. But when protecting people against pathogens that invade the airway — like the coronavirus — an intramuscular shot isn’t necessarily the best strategy, some experts say.

“When we take apart and present pathogens in a way that the immune system doesn’t naturally see them, it’s not as ideal,” said Avery August, an immunologist at Cornell University. “You run the risk of not generating the right immune response.”

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Many microbes, including the coronavirus, enter the body through the mucosa — wet, squishy tissues that line the nose, mouth, lungs and digestive tract — triggering a unique immune response from cells and molecules there. Intramuscular vaccines generally do a poor job of eliciting this mucosal response, and must instead rely on immune cells mobilized from elsewhere in the body flocking to the site of infection.

Given the potency and rapid spread of the coronavirus, some say it makes sense to develop vaccines for the airway as well as the more standard jabs. “Knowing how potent mucosal responses can be against a viral pathogen, it would be ideal to be thinking about mucosal vaccines,” said Akiko Iwasaki, an immunologist at Yale University.

Several research groups, including teams in the United States, Canada and the Netherlands, are working on nasal coronavirus vaccines. And a few companies, including the American biotech Vaxart, are starting to cook up oral formulations, which deliver their contents to another mucus-rich surface: the spongy lining of the gut.

The hope is that mucosal vaccines will do all that their intramuscular competitors can and more, mounting a multipronged attack on the coronavirus from the moment it tries to breach the body’s barriers, said Deepta Bhattacharya, an immunologist at the University of Arizona.

Under ideal circumstances, both types of vaccines would marshal a response in the blood. B cells, for example, would churn out antibodies — including a particularly potent disease-fighter called IgG — to roam the body in search of invaders to dispatch. Other cells, called T cells, would either help B cells produce antibodies or seek out and destroy infected cells.

But vaccines spritzed through the nose or mouth would also tap into another set of immune cells that hang around mucosal tissues. The B cells that reside here can make another type of antibody, called IgA, that plays a large role in bringing gut and airway pathogens to heel. And T cells in this neighborhood can memorize the features of specific pathogens, then spend the rest of their lives patrolling the places they first encountered them.

These mucosal immune responses seem to underlie the success of the oral polio vaccine, which contains a weakened form of polio virus and has helped most of the world eradicate polio. When it debuted in the 1960s, the vaccine was considered, in many ways, an enormous improvement over its injected predecessor because it targeted the body’s immune response in the gut, where the virus thrives. Many people who took the oral vaccine seemed to quash infections even before they felt symptoms — or passed the germ on to others.

“It was a fabulous vaccine to stop the transmission of polio,” said Dr. Anna Durbin, a vaccine expert at Johns Hopkins University. “It helped induce herd immunity,” she said, referring to the threshold of the population that needs to be immune to a pathogen to keep it from spreading.

Vaccines given through muscle are great for prompting the body to churn out antibodies in the bloodstream, like IgG. If a pathogen shows up, hordes of these on-call molecules will rush to meet it.

For many respiratory infections, that’s good enough.

“The majority of respiratory vaccines, like the measles vaccine, are given intramuscularly, and it works,” Dr. Iwasaki said. “If enough antibodies reach the right mucosal surface, it doesn’t really matter how they were induced.”

Still, relying on that strategy alone can be risky — a bit like shoring up a bank’s security at every entrance except for the one a thief would most likely hit. Sentinels roving throughout the building could subdue the interloper after they trip the alarm. But by that point, some damage has probably already been done.

The Coronavirus Pandemic: Key Things to Know

Card 1 of 4

The Omicron variant. The latest variant was identified on Nov. 25 by scientists in South Africa. As experts race to learn more, it’s still unclear if the variant leads to severe illness and how effective vaccines will be against it. Use our tracker to see where Omicron has been detected.

Travel restrictions and lockdowns. As more Omicron cases emerge globally, countries are responding in varied ways. Japan joined Israel and Morocco in barring all foreign travelers, and Australia delayed reopening its borders for two weeks. Here’s a list of where U.S. citizens can travel right now.

What officials are saying. President Biden sought to reassure the U.S. on Monday, telling Americans that the variant is “a cause for concern, not a cause for panic.” W.H.O. officials warned that the global risk posed by Omicron was “very high”, and the C.D.C said all adults “should” get booster shots.

Economic impact. After stocks dropped heavily following the initial news of Omicron’s discovery, global markets appeared to steady on Monday. Jerome Powell, the Federal Reserve chair, will tell lawmakers on Tuesday that Omicron creates more inflation uncertainty.

“It’s mainly a timing issue,” Dr. Bhattacharya said. “If you have circulating cells and molecules, they’ll eventually find the infection. But you’d rather have a more immediate response.”

Without a strong mucosal response, injected vaccines may be less likely to produce so-called sterilizing immunity, a phenomenon in which a pathogen is purged from the body before it’s able to infect cells, Dr. Durbin said. Vaccinated people might be protected from severe disease, but could still be infected, experience mild symptoms and occasionally pass small quantities of the germ onto others.

Reliably rousing mucosal immunity isn’t easy, however — and vaccines that specifically target them come with their own drawbacks. Although FluMist, a nasal spray vaccine containing weakened flu viruses, has been shown to be more effective than flu shots in young children, its performance is more lackluster in adults. And the oral polio vaccine has been linked to a very small number of cases of polio after the weakened virus in the product mutated.

Designing a mucosal vaccine with less risky ingredients, such as inactivated viruses or genetic material, could circumvent that issue. But these more innocuous formulations could be too weak to stimulate a long-lasting immune response.

“You want the vaccine to be strong enough to get in and do what it needs to do, but it can’t cause a lot of symptoms,” Dr. Durbin said. “It’s a really difficult balance.”

Much of mucosal immunity also remains mysterious to researchers. “A lot of what we know about the rest of the immune system kind of goes out the window when we’re talking about a mucosal site,” said Dr. Frances Eun-Hyung Lee, a physician and immunologist at the Emory Vaccine Center. There are also fewer tried-and-true technologies for developing nasal and oral vaccines, compared with injectables.

All these factors can introduce speed bumps in the vaccine-development timeline, as researchers work to ensure both safety and effectiveness, Dr. August said. That means mucosal recipes might not be among the first generation of coronavirus vaccines. But perhaps that’s all the more reason to invest in them earlier, he said.

 

Well I’ll be dipped. Travel bans. Always playing from behind. 

 

 

Well I’ll be dipped. Travel bans. Always playing from behind. 
 
 

Not sure why people thought everything would magically go back to normal when major cities like Houston just barely got our of the red.

4 hours ago, Celery Man said:

Ditto for all of our domestic shitheads who have kicked and screamed and refused to take this seriously for the past two years/800k dead.

Nothing to disagree with you there. 

3 hours ago, Telegraph_it said:

Well I’ll be dipped. Travel bans. Always playing from behind. 

 

 

So not only do we have to worry about South Africans bringing the variant into the U.S. via the Texas—Mexico border……but also the Dutch?

4 minutes ago, Lobo said:

So not only do we have to worry about South Africans bringing the variant into the U.S. via the Texas—Mexico border……but also the Dutch?

I’d guess we are just going to get 6 month boosters for the rest of our lives as variant XXX comes out around 2040.

The UK just announced they are going to three month boosters.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/29/uk/uk-booster-vaccine-expansion-omicron-gbr-intl/index.html

I'm coming up on 9 months since my 2md Moderna, so probably due for a booster.  But figured I'd at least get an antibody test before doing so.  Only did the finger prick rapid test, but it  came back positive for IGG antibodies.  No clue when that happened.  I've certainly had little coughs or congestion at times in the last 18 months, but never anything significant or a fever (other than after shot 2).

17 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

I'm coming up on 9 months since my 2md Moderna, so probably due for a booster.  But figured I'd at least get an antibody test before doing so.  Only did the finger prick rapid test, but it  came back positive for IGG antibodies.  No clue when that happened.  I've certainly had little coughs or congestion at times in the last 18 months, but never anything significant or a fever (other than after shot 2).

Where did you get/perform this test? 

5 minutes ago, Hate said:

Where did you get/perform this test? 

Pharmacy 

26 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

Pharmacy 

Do you mind sharing which one you used?

4 minutes ago, Hate said:

Do you mind sharing which one you used?

Pretty much all Kroger pharmacies do antibody testing.  Just go to their website and find the one closest to you and you can make an appointment.  That's what I did.

7 minutes ago, Hate said:

Do you mind sharing which one you used?

Also I think Carter Bloodcare still does free antibody testing if you donate.

https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf

pg. 7

23 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

Pretty much all Kroger pharmacies do antibody testing.  Just go to their website and find the one closest to you and you can make an appointment.  That's what I did.

Got it.  I though you were talking about a home test. 

Finally got around to doing the second Texas Cares blood draw.  Booster in October.  Antibodies 2500+ as expected.  Anyone know of a place in Houston that does the test above 2500?   I wanna know if my blood is basically antibody jelly. 

Finally got around to doing the second Texas Cares blood draw.  Booster in October.  Antibodies 2500+ as expected.  Anyone know of a place in Houston that does the test above 2500?   I wanna know if my blood is basically antibody jelly. 

Let the door knob licking begin

 

 

I kind of like the idea of the unvaccinated being less likely to produce offspring. 

nm1234

Edited December 5, 2021 by rpspeed

No. Just vaccine.

Got boosted Thursday. Friday morning felt goofy, no appetite. Friday evening had a 100 degree fever but was babbling as if it were higher-- my verbal skills were limited to shouting unrelated words. Crashed for about 40 hours, Saturday didn't exist as I wallowed in my own sweat-soaked sheets like some failed French canal-digger in Panama. Sunday morning came out of it sufficiently to accomplish tasks like making coffee or walking up and down stairs.

On 12/4/2021 at 8:55 AM, Pato del Muerto said:

I kind of like the idea of the unvaccinated being less likely to produce offspring. 

Yeah, I don't get the accommodation for this fearful group.  I was told to get out there and live my best life.  So I got vaccinated and boosted.  If there's tens of millions of folks who don't want to do it for fear of infertility, I'm all for it.  Let them breed themselves into irrelevance.  Why do the worst among us need to hang around?  If I could put them in gas chambers, I would.  But that's frowned upon nowadays.  So let them die off of their own accord.  Win-win as far as I can tell.  

Got the 2nd Texas Cares Antibody results back and was 2500+ as well (boosted 9/29).  Thought maybe one of the multiple colds my family has had may have been mild COVID, but nope, still negative for any actual infection.

2nd Texas Cares results had my S antibodies rising from 347 to 376. I don’t know how that would happen, but I guess there is a lot we don’t understand about this virus. I’ve not been vaccinated or boosted, as I’ve stated before, but had a relatively mild case in February.

My N antibody number (which indicates I had Covid previously) dropped from 184 to 144. That number seems to still be on the high end of people with previous Covid infections at the 300 day mark, based on my reading of the literature that the Texas Cares Survey sent to me. That was based on women in my age group - I’m not a woman, but they didn’t publish male stats for some reason. .

As far as I can ascertain, researchers still don’t know what those numbers mean as far as what level of protection one would have with a particular number. 

11 hours ago, Skipper said:

Got the 2nd Texas Cares Antibody results back and was 2500+ as well (boosted 9/29).  Thought maybe one of the multiple colds my family has had may have been mild COVID, but nope, still negative for any actual infection.

Same here.  1st draw I was just above 100.  Now over 2500 after a booster 2 months ago.

Cross pasting from vaccine roll call thread because I was pretty surprised and curious if anyone else has experienced this:

Have held off on my booster because I did the first draw for the UT Health antibody study in late August and wanted to do my second draw before getting the booster. Pfizer’s second dose in early April and antibodies around 850 on the test in August.

My antibody level increased to 925 as of this past Saturday, eight months after my second dose. Still negative for natural infection.

2 hours ago, gmr548 said:

Cross pasting from vaccine roll call thread because I was pretty surprised and curious if anyone else has experienced this:

Have held off on my booster because I did the first draw for the UT Health antibody study in late August and wanted to do my second draw before getting the booster. Pfizer’s second dose in early April and antibodies around 850 on the test in August.

My antibody level increased to 925 as of this past Saturday, eight months after my second dose. Still negative for natural infection.

Same timeline as you, but slightly different circumstance. Took the second draw after getting COVID and the antibodies were through the roof.

So 1,600 in August, got COVID in late September, second draw was >2,500 in November. 

Went ahead and got the booster a week ago as I was there anyway.

Wife went from 1,200 in August to around 800 (I think?) in November. She did not get the 'rona.