COVID-19 vaccine discussion

But a booster wouldn’t hurt anyway.

On 12/18/2021 at 10:26 PM, Dontshootrude said:

Citation: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2787447

 

Summary: you get a very robust immune response after a breakthrough infection, perhaps as good as the hybrid immunity we see after a recovered individual gets vaccinated.  And on top of that, there is a substantial increase in the class of antibodies (IgA) expressed on mucus membranes (like in your nose and respiratory tract) that is markedly better than what is achieved through vaccination that should do a better job at preventing infection.

This is pretty basic immunology.

And yet the analysis is incomplete.

8 hours ago, Jersey Man10 said:

But a booster wouldn’t hurt anyway.

It sure as hell does. 

1 hour ago, Coelenterate Fuccboi said:

It sure as hell does. 

Wow really? My booster didn't hurt at all.

6 minutes ago, Bookman said:

Wow really? My booster didn't hurt at all.

My shoulder was sore as shit after all three.

4 hours ago, Bookman said:

And yet the analysis is incomplete.

Really?  What immunological benefit do you think they will get from a booster this close to infection recovery?

I’m officially boosted. Hope it doesn’t interfere with a dinner later tonight.

In other news my 80 year old MIL told me yesterday that her doctor told her that the next vaccine will probably have a tracking chip in it so they can tell who has had it. I told her she should consider getting a new doctor. She seemed to think it was quite rational.

On 12/18/2021 at 3:14 PM, Surly Bevo said:

So question.  At this point rather than continue pounding away resources at making an "original" version of  the vaccine work for 2-5 year olds that so far have seemed very very low risk outcome wise would it not make more sense for the Pfizers and Modernas of the world to be figuring out how to make some form of a trivalent, quadrivalent? vaccine/booster.  Is that even possible?  Just seems like they would do something like isolate the Alpha, Delta, Omicron and say one other spike that has been drifting around out there and create m-RNA that would get your cells pumping out all three varieties?  I'm sure it's more complicated than I just made it sound, or is it?  

Moderna released a press release addressing this just today.

https://investors.modernatx.com/news/news-details/2021/Moderna-Announces-Preliminary-Booster-Data-and-Updates-Strategy-to-Address-Omicron-Variant/default.aspx

A couple of interesting tidbits in there:

Quote

Authorized booster (50 µg of mRNA-1273) increases Omicron neutralizing antibody levels approximately 37-fold; a 100 µg booster dose of mRNA-1273 increases Omicron neutralizing antibody levels approximately 83-fold

And related to your question:

Quote

The multivalent candidates boosted Omicron specific neutralizing antibody levels to similarly high levels at both the 50 µg and 100 µg levels.

Keep in mind the multivalent candidates contained prior variants and not omicron.  Our immune system really is amazing, isn't it?

Edited December 20, 2021 by Dontshootrude

Sooo if I got a Moderna "booster" at the very end of September and before I believe it was the authorized half-dose I got double the same stuff or is the booster a different formulation (I know it is half dose of a vaccine jab)

11 minutes ago, Dontshootrude said:

Quote

Authorized booster (50 µg of mRNA-1273) increases Omicron neutralizing antibody levels approximately 37-fold; a 100 µg booster dose of mRNA-1273 increases Omicron neutralizing antibody levels approximately 83-fold

 

Full dose 3rd shot ftmfw.  

4 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

Sooo if I got a Moderna "booster" at the very end of September and before I believe it was the authorized half-dose I got double the same stuff or is the booster a different formulation (I know it is half dose of a vaccine jab)

The formulation is the same in the booster and original shot.

12 hours ago, Dontshootrude said:

Really?  What immunological benefit do you think they will get from a booster this close to infection recovery?

Huh? I didn't imply that I did. I'm not a doctor.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Bookman

Taking my oldest (6.5yo) to get her first shot this afternoon.  Obviously, we're more nervous than she is.  

For both our second shots and our boosters, wife and I both had the shit hit the fan right at about 12-15 hours afterwards.  Mine lasted about 36 hours of, hers for about 24.  

What's the experience, if even anecdotal, on the window when the "crappy window" hits kids that young?  Aside from the obvious crying about the needle itself?  We're going at 1:00p and hoping that if she does feel crappy, she can sleep through the brunt of it and maybe just wake up a little salty tomorrow and bounce back nicely for big family Christmas Eve.  I know everybody is different.  We're taking her to the UT Public Health pediatric care place so hopefully seeing some other kids in there will put her somewhat at ease.  She's been a trooper through this whole thing.  Even though her school went totally optional on masks recently, she still wears one because she said, "I want to take care of my friends."  I cried when she said that and want her to get through the next day or two.  Thanks for listening world...see y'all in 2022.

My 13 year old had zero side affects other than a sore arm from the shot.  That was the same result for both shots. 

48 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Taking my oldest (6.5yo) to get her first shot this afternoon.  Obviously, we're more nervous than she is.  

For both our second shots and our boosters, wife and I both had the shit hit the fan right at about 12-15 hours afterwards.  Mine lasted about 36 hours of, hers for about 24.  

What's the experience, if even anecdotal, on the window when the "crappy window" hits kids that young?  Aside from the obvious crying about the needle itself?  We're going at 1:00p and hoping that if she does feel crappy, she can sleep through the brunt of it and maybe just wake up a little salty tomorrow and bounce back nicely for big family Christmas Eve.  I know everybody is different.  We're taking her to the UT Public Health pediatric care place so hopefully seeing some other kids in there will put her somewhat at ease.  She's been a trooper through this whole thing.  Even though her school went totally optional on masks recently, she still wears one because she said, "I want to take care of my friends."  I cried when she said that and want her to get through the next day or two.  Thanks for listening world...see y'all in 2022.

My five-year old had no noticeable issues after either shot. 

Not exactly vaccine news, but word on the street is that Pfizer's anti-viral will get FDA approval tomorrow.

56 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

My five-year old had no noticeable issues after either shot. 

Same with mine, the older one spiked a mild fever. We have not done second shots though. 

Both 6 and 8 had Moderna. 
Nothing after first shot

Second shot- next day one had a headache and both were tired/went to sleep a little early.

Got my moderna booster today after getting a J&J original last spring. So far just a little soreness in the arm.

 

We’ve had 3 people test positive in the last 2 weeks. That’s quite a few for us, and I don’t think we’ve seen this much activity since spring of 2020. All were vaccinated. Unfortunately, it’s not helping in making the case to get vaccinated for the handful of hold outs. Good thing is those 3 seem to be shrugging it off pretty well. 

I'll say my experience with my 16 YO. I said this before but I got banned for saying this. My 16 yo son didn't want to have to spend time out if his soph yr as a starter DE (brag) as a player on his HS team in case covid happened. History: he had covid in the fall before the vax in 2020. I fact, he still doesn't smell skunks. Weird covid things a yr later. My gut was you don't need this vax you had it. He begged me. So last late Aug I took him to get his 1st vax on a Sunday. 1 day later. I get a call from the school from the nurse. Your son is complaining he doesn't feel well and I took his HR and it is 120. I went and picked him up. I just thought it was from the vax and not feeling well. That entire night he was like dad I'm light headed and my heart is going crazy. So we miss the next day of school because I'm freaked out. Go to urgent care. My super athlete goes from 65 to 140 to 100 to 90 to 80 over and over. Doc said I wouldn't recommend another vax for him his body probably thinks it is infected again and is having a robust response. So we are done with the vax. We all had it and my oldest had the vax and had a horrible reaction. I know this is not the reason not to get the vax but if you've had it already especially if young I don't see the point. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Passive Aggressive Coach

5 hours ago, UT_OB1 said:

We’ve had 3 people test positive in the last 2 weeks. That’s quite a few for us, and I don’t think we’ve seen this much activity since spring of 2020. All were vaccinated. Unfortunately, it’s not helping in making the case to get vaccinated for the handful of hold outs. Good thing is those 3 seem to be shrugging it off pretty well. 

Uh, this is 1000% THE REASON TO GET THE VACCINE!!!!!

Now I'm going to brag more because still on topic.This kid beat covid. He was vaxed. And his best sport is baseball. Look at this wood bat bomb he hit this summer over the scoreboard as a 15 YO at PG WWBA National Championships as 2024. Fences were 330 and 400 to center. His recruit vid. He made this on his cell phone. Despite covid and bad vax experience. No mask worn. 🤣

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Passive Aggressive Coach

7 hours ago, Passive Aggressive Coach said:

I'll say my experience with my 16 YO. I said this before but I got banned for saying this. My 16 yo son didn't want to have to spend time out if his soph yr as a starter DE (brag) as a player on his HS team in case covid happened. History: he had covid in the fall before the vax in 2020. I fact, he still doesn't smell skunks. Weird covid things a yr later. My gut was you don't need this vax you had it. He begged me. So last late Aug I took him to get his 1st vax on a Sunday. 1 day later. I get a call from the school from the nurse. Your son is complaining he doesn't feel well and I took his HR and it is 120. I went and picked him up. I just thought it was from the vax and not feeling well. That entire night he was like dad I'm light headed and my heart is going crazy. So we miss the next day of school because I'm freaked out. Go to urgent care. My super athlete goes from 65 to 140 to 100 to 90 to 80 over and over. Doc said I wouldn't recommend another vax for him his body probably thinks it is infected again and is having a robust response. So we are done with the vax. We all had it and my oldest had the vax and had a horrible reaction. I know this is not the reason not to get the vax but if you've had it already especially if young I don't see the point. 

This is why.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/12/21/us-omicron-coronavirus-death-first-reported/

Yeah, he had health conditions.  But he had already been infected with a previous strain.  Omicron gives no shits.  Also, your kid could have a completely undiagnosed health condition that makes him vulnerable.  You do not know because if there are no symptoms, things can lie dormant and go undetected for years.  The problem that we all had with you is that you were using your specific experience to advise others to not get their kids vaccinated.  Also, did you ever confirm with your kid's doctor?  Or just rely on what one urgent care doctor said?

And the real reason for everyone, even children, to get vaccinated is so that this thing has less people to infect in order to mutate.  We will keep having variants of concern as long as there are people who refuse to be vaccinated.  

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by PenelopeWitherspoon

PassAggCoach, I don’t see why your story would be controversial. Due to your son’s youth and health, and his prior Covid experience, he was low risk (but not zero risk) for a bad Covid experience. He is also low risk for a bad vaccine experience, but not zero risk. I’m very glad that he seems to have pulled through ok, and wish all of you the best. Thanks for sharing. 
  
Covid is not fair. It hits the oldest and fattest worst. It’s dumb to pretend that everyone has the same risk calculations. We’re past the point where we can be dumb on purpose. 

17 minutes ago, statsman said:

PassAggCoach, I don’t see why your story would be controversial. Due to your son’s youth and health, and his prior Covid experience, he was low risk (but not zero risk) for a bad Covid experience. He is also low risk for a bad vaccine experience, but not zero risk. I’m very glad that he seems to have pulled through ok, and wish all of you the best. Thanks for sharing. 
  
Covid is not fair. It hits the oldest and fattest worst. It’s dumb to pretend that everyone has the same risk calculations. We’re past the point where we can be dumb on purpose. 

He got banned for crying about rep all over the board, not for telling his much less detailed story about how his kid might miss practice if he got a vaccination.

Walter Reed supposed to be releasing data soon on the SARS-COV super vax they've been working on the past 2 years. 

Quote

 

Within weeks, scientists at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research expect to announce that they have developed a vaccine that is effective against COVID-19 and all its variants, even Omicron, as well as from previous SARS-origin viruses that have killed millions of people worldwide. 

The achievement is the result of almost two years of work on the virus. The Army lab received its first DNA sequencing of the COVID-19 virus in early 2020. Very early on, Walter Reed’s infectious diseases branch decided to focus on making a vaccine that would work against not just the existing strain but all of its potential variants as well.

Walter Reed’s Spike Ferritin Nanoparticle COVID-19 vaccine, or SpFN, completed animal trials earlier this year with positive results. Phase 1 of human trials, which tested the vaccine against Omicron and the other variants, wrapped up this month, again with positive results that are undergoing final review, Dr. Kayvon Modjarrad, director of Walter Reed’s infectious diseases branch, said in an exclusive interview with Defense One. The new vaccine will still need to undergo phase 2 and phase 3 trials.

Unlike existing vaccines, Walter Reed’s SpFN uses a soccer ball-shaped protein with 24 faces for its vaccine, which allows scientists to attach the spikes of multiple coronavirus strains on different faces of the protein.

 

https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2021/12/us-army-creates-single-vaccine-effective-against-all-covid-sars-variants/360089/

Quote

Unlike existing vaccines, Walter Reed’s SpFN uses a soccer ball-shaped protein with 24 faces for its vaccine, which allows scientists to attach the spikes of multiple coronavirus strains on different faces of the protein.

Geesh. We've come a long way from "we put dead virus in you. make you not get sick."

4 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Geesh. We've come a long way from "we put dead virus in you. make you not get sick."

Imagine explaining a "Spike Ferritin Nanoparticle" vaccine to some 18th century doctor whose experience with inoculation consists of scraping smallpox samples into people's open wounds.

On 12/20/2021 at 6:20 AM, Buzzrock said:

I’m officially boosted. Hope it doesn’t interfere with a dinner later tonight.

In other news my 80 year old MIL told me yesterday that her doctor told her that the next vaccine will probably have a tracking chip in it so they can tell who has had it. I told her she should consider getting a new doctor. She seemed to think it was quite rational.

Would Her “doctor”  happen to be a chiropractor out of San Antonio that enjoys posting pictures of bad food?

Imagine explaining a "Spike Ferritin Nanoparticle" vaccine to some 18th century doctor whose experience with inoculation consists of scraping smallpox samples into people's open wounds.

Imagine explaining that to an anti-vax moron in the present day.

30 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

Imagine explaining that to an anti-vax moron in the present day.

Or me, a pro-vax moron. I know Spike Ferritin was a great linebacker for the 49ers back in the '80s. No idea who nanoparticle is though.

 

Now they have trackers in pill form great

13 minutes ago, Jersey Man10 said:

Now they have trackers in pill form great

Actually, it's a tracker combined with Vitamin D, ivermectin, hydroxycloroquine, and a psychoactive substance that causes people to follow subliminal messages that are broadcast on 5G networks by the Illuminati lizard pedophile people.  All in an easy to swallow horse pill with a specially patented formula for maximum insurance billing opportunities.   

Or me, a pro-vax moron. I know Spike Ferritin was a great linebacker for the 49ers back in the '80s. No idea who nanoparticle is though.

Same boat, but at least I think we’d listen and attempt to understand. I mean, I want to know all about the upgraded 5G implants.

22 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

Same boat, but at least I think we’d listen and attempt to understand. I mean, I want to know all about the upgraded 5G implants.

The 5G implants are running on 24 GHz networks so it will clearly interfere with accurate meteorological reporting since weather satellites read water vapor emission at 23.8 GHz frequencies.

This is a WSJ op-Ed (by a doctor), discussing the relative (low) risks of Covid to vaccinated teen boys and boosters to same. 
 
https://www.wsj.com/articles/dangerous-push-to-give-boosters-to-teens-vacccine-covid-19-omicron-vaxx-requirement-mandate-11640107759?mod=opinion_lead_pos7
 

The U.S. government is pushing Covid-19 vaccine boosters for 16- and 17-year-olds without supporting clinical data. A large Israeli population study, published in the New England Journal of Medicine earlier this month, found that the risk of Covid death in people under 30 with two vaccine shots was zero.

Booster mandates for healthy young people, which some colleges are imposing, will cause medical harm for the sake of transient reductions in mild and asymptomatic infections. In a study of 438,511 males 16 to 24, 56 developed myocarditis after their second Pfizer dose (or 1 in 7,830, at least seven times the usual rate). True, most cases were mild, but in the broader group of 136 people (including older and female patients) who developed myocarditis after the vaccine, seven had a “complicated course,” and one 22-year-old died. Moderna’s vaccine carries an even higher rate of heart complications, which is why some European countries have restricted it for people under 30. But in the U.S., the Food and Drug Administration and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention indiscriminately push for boosters for all young people.

Those recommendations came over the objections of the agencies’ own experts. The last vote by FDA advisers, in September, rejected the proposal 16-2. FDA leaders revisited the proposal in November and simply bypassed the experts. So did the CDC, whose advisers had rejected boosters for people not at high risk. Two top FDA scientists, including the head of the agency’s vaccine efforts, quit around the time of the September vote over White House pressure to authorize boosters for all. They wrote in detail about their concerns. 

A study by Oxford researchers, published last week in Nature Medicine, validated those concerns. It found young people suffered myocarditis, pericarditis and arrhythmias more frequently from Moderna’s vaccine than from Covid itself. And the long-term cardiac effects of boosters in young people are unknown.

FDA and CDC officials justified their push for boosters by pointing to a reduction in antibody levels months after vaccination. This fails to account for another part of the immune system, T-cells. The activation of these cells isn’t easily measured with simple blood draws, but they are powerful protectors against severe disease. New outcomes data could emerge to show that the benefit of boosting young people outweighs the risk, but drugs aren’t supposed to be authorized or approved based on speculation.

The emergence of the Omicron variant has fed the push for boosters. But a University of Hong Kong study found that Omicron is less than one-tenth as infective in lung cells compared with the Delta variant. That explains why Omicron patients report far fewer cough and fever symptoms. Instead they report common cold-symptoms, similar to the four known seasonal coronaviruses that have circulated for decades, causing many colds. Angelique Coetzee of the South African Medical Association described her bedside Omicron observations: “There is no reason for panicking.” Yet much of the northern U.S. is now in full panic mode. 
Omicron does partly evade antibody immunity, but it doesn’t escape existing T-cell immunity according to a new Johns Hopkins study. That’s consistent with population data on Omicron. Case counts are plunging in the epicenter, in the South African province of Gauteng. South African Health Minister Joe Phaahla reports that only 1.7% of Covid patients were hospitalized in the second week of the Omicron-dominant wave, compared with 19% at the same point in the Delta wave. We now have laboratory data, epidemiological data, and bedside data that Omicron is mild for the vast majority of infected patients.

Pfizer issued a press release on Dec. 8 announcing a lab experiment demonstrating that a booster shot increases antibody levels against Omicron. They didn’t release the underlying data. The next day, the FDA authorized boosters for 16- and 17-year-olds, and the CDC followed suit.

At the same time, the FDA has been delinquent in authorizing Merck’s and Pfizer’s antiviral pills that are designed to work against all variants. Merck’s Molnupiravir received an up-vote from FDA experts three weeks ago, yet the agency hasn’t authorized it. Pfizer’s Paxlovid cut Covid deaths to zero (compared with 10 deaths in the control group), yet the FDA has been sitting on the application for five weeks without even scheduling an advisory meeting to review it. The already available medication fluvoxamine reduced Covid deaths by 91% among symptomatic high-risk patients in a second randomized controlled trial evaluating its effect. Yet I’ve never heard public-health officials mention it.

Last week I testified before Congress that many Covid policies are no longer driven by science. Data is being cherry-picked to support predetermined agendas, while the roles of natural immunity and life-saving therapeutics are being sidelined.

We’ve seen medical bandwagon thinking hurt the country before. The false assumption that Covid spreads by surface transmission still has Americans engaging in futile disinfection rituals. We’ve suffered from barbaric policies that prohibited people from saying goodbye to, or holding hands with, loved ones who were dying. Children were shut out of school for a less contagious variant. Our public health leaders are making critical mistakes and affirming each other with groupthink, while journalists forfeit their duty to ask key questions.

Forcing immune, young, healthy, low-risk students to get a third vaccine shot is excessive and wasteful. These precious vaccine doses should be going to poor countries that still don’t have enough.

Dr. Makary is a professor at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine and author of “The Price We Pay: What Broke American Health Care and How to Fix It.”

3 hours ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

This is why.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/12/21/us-omicron-coronavirus-death-first-reported/

Yeah, he had health conditions.  But he had already been infected with a previous strain.  Omicron gives no shits.  Also, your kid could have a completely undiagnosed health condition that makes him vulnerable.  You do not know because if there are no symptoms, things can lie dormant and go undetected for years.  The problem that we all had with you is that you were using your specific experience to advise others to not get their kids vaccinated.  Also, did you ever confirm with your kid's doctor?  Or just rely on what one urgent care doctor said?

And the real reason for everyone, even children, to get vaccinated is so that this thing has less people to infect in order to mutate.  We will keep having variants of concern as long as there are people who refuse to be vaccinated.  

 

But if half the global population is unvacccinated it’s kind of like pissing in the wind as far as preventing mutations isn’t it? 

2 hours ago, Storm the Field said:

Imagine explaining a "Spike Ferritin Nanoparticle" vaccine to some 18th century doctor whose experience with inoculation consists of scraping smallpox samples into people's open wounds.

Imagine explaining it to the mouth breathing anti vaxxers today.  These folks barely passed high school, but now they're immunologists.

2 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

But if half the global population is unvacccinated it’s kind of like pissing in the wind as far as preventing mutations isn’t it? 

No.

13 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

But if half the global population is unvacccinated it’s kind of like pissing in the wind as far as preventing mutations isn’t it? 

Which is why the Western world needs to figure out how to get shots in arms.  The WHO has been fucking useless.  The US and other countries have donated more than a billion doses, but the countries they have donated them to do not have the infrastructure to get it done.  The US and Europe now need to lead.  They need to get a plan in place and get boots on the ground to get this shit done.  

For the US, Canada, Europe, and other countries with significant vaccination percentages, after Omicron, I think this is endemic.  We need to turn our eyes to the rest of the world so it can get to that point with them.

Edited December 22, 2021 by PenelopeWitherspoon

6 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Which is why the Western world needs to figure out how to get shots in arms.  The WHO has been fucking useless.  The US and other countries have donated more than a billion doses, but the countries they have donated them to do not have the infrastructure to get it done.  The US and Europe now need to lead.  They need to get a plan in place and get boots on the ground to get this shit done.  

For the US, Canada, Europe, and other countries with significant vaccination percentages, after Omicron, I think this is endemic.  We need to turn our eyes to the rest of the world.  

I think we should load up B-52s with doses and just carpet bomb all those sumbitches into vaccination heaven. 

I feel your post is just wishful thinking. We can provide does, support, supplies, etc. But to think that the West could magically create a global force to vaccinate... and then provide a second shot... and then provide a booster to 3 billion people around the world is unrealistic. 

Does anyone know where in the hell I can get tested in N Austin/Round Rock?  I just spent an hour looking and can't find shit.

5 minutes ago, Ten Bears said:

Does anyone know where in the hell I can get tested in N Austin/Round Rock?  I just spent an hour looking and can't find shit.

Curative Round Rock but it’s not rapid 

https://book.curative.com/sites/32449?date=2021-12-22#9/30.315/-97.7394

Talked to a neighbor who had a sales call with the CEO of an Indiana hospital yesterday. He said they are at their highest number of admissions and 25-30 percent of them are vaccinated. Anecdotal of course but concerning.

Interested to know what percentage of the 25-30 he'd say are boosted.

Do the boosters take 2-3 weeks to reach full efficacy like the original 2 shots did or is the effect more immediate because of prior immune responses to the first 2 shots?

38 minutes ago, MrBig said:

Curative Round Rock but it’s not rapid 

Booked.  Thanks.  I should have just asked MrBig.