COVID-19 vaccine discussion

1 minute ago, Pato del Muerto said:

In the UK, happiness is measured out in miles. 

They also have funny words for things in the language they invented.

What was Dennis Farina's quote about England/English in "Snatch"?  Damn he cracked me up in that movie.  He reminded me so much of my late father it hurts.  

Edited January 16, 2022 by Lobo

21 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

In the UK, happiness is measured out in miles. 

Kilometers.

Kilometers.

Farthings. And barleycorns.

It’s a reference to a Beatles lyric, guys. 

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Farthings. And barleycorns.

Three farthings for a lump of shit, sir.

Stats from a study in Alberta show, if I'm reading it correctly, that if you're age 80 and fully vaccinated, you are LESS likely to be hospitalized due to covid than a 12 to 29 year old who's unvaxxed.

 

5 hours ago, Lobo said:

What was Dennis Farina's quote about England/English in "Snatch"?  Damn he cracked me up in that movie.  He reminded me so much of my late father it hurts.  

Customs guy:  Do you have anything to declare?

DF:  Yeah.  Don't go to England.

That was one.  But I was thinking of some other scene (can't remember exactly).  He says something like, "Yeah, I thought this place invented the English language but so far, seems like nobody here can actually fucking speak it!" 

This does not seem like the best idea:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/01/13/california-allowing-covid-positive-health-care-workers-to-treat-patients/
 

California letting positive health care workers treat patients.

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

That was one.  But I was thinking of some other scene (can't remember exactly).  He says something like, "Yeah, I thought this place invented the English language but so far, seems like nobody here can actually fucking speak it!" 

That movie is so full of great lines.

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

That was one.  But I was thinking of some other scene (can't remember exactly).  He says something like, "Yeah, I thought this place invented the English language but so far, seems like nobody here can actually fucking speak it!" 

 

And then there's this jewel.

 

 

18 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Mexico: miles smarter than the US.

Who was that TV guy admonishing, gringos in Mexico?

This does not seem like the best idea:
https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/01/13/california-allowing-covid-positive-health-care-workers-to-treat-patients/
 
California letting positive health care workers treat patients.

So is Texas.

6 hours ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

This does not seem like the best idea:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/01/13/california-allowing-covid-positive-health-care-workers-to-treat-patients/
 

California letting positive health care workers treat patients.

WCGW?

14 hours ago, scottsins said:

So is Texas.

 

This does not seem like the best idea:
https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/01/13/california-allowing-covid-positive-health-care-workers-to-treat-patients/
 
California letting positive health care workers treat patients.

So are countless other states.

Healthcare staffing is teetering on the brink in many cases. It’s real bad.

Unfortunately the staff of hospitals bears the blunt of the blow from the determination of the unvaccinated to remain a health liability.   There is no changing of minds on this.  

So yes, Hospitals are forced to use covid positive people to try and help care for other covid positive patients.  Because... the surge in hospital occupancy ( the vast majority of which are unvaccinated) is simply a never ending line of the determined.  What will be interesting to see is how rural America where vaccination rates are much lower, and access to hospital care is considerably less per capita, fares statistically.  

The sad thing is that most of these hospitalizations are simply due to making uninformed choices. 

In states that refused medicaid dollars for their citizenry, there has been an across the board reduction in rural hospital access over the last decade or so.  This will also play into who even has access to a hospital to potentially be admitted into.  The great news is if you have been vaccinated and boosted, you are dramatically less likely to become severely ill and need hospitalization.  Because you followed science...

There’s a couple other factors behind staffing shortage. I won’t touch on the CR reason, but as people have burned out or quit for other reasons jobs open up, travel nurses are brought in to help. Travel nurses get paid at least twice what staffed nurses do. When they finish their 13 week contract, they can the afford to take time off. So you have less nurses in the workforce. Not saying they shouldn’t be able to do it, but it’s a small factor I think. 

Finally got around to my third TX cares blood draw.  My booster was Oct 18, so was curious if antibodies might have dropped off.  Nope, still strong -- >2500.  And still no prior infection, so I didn't have an asymptomatic case.  Just another data point.

my understanding is that the willingness of hospital admins to pay travel nurses 2-3x rather than pay permanent nurses more is also fairly demoralizing to nursing staff (I have no connection to healthcare and that could be overblown)

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Finally got around to my third TX cares blood draw.  My booster was Oct 18, so was curious if antibodies might have dropped off.  Nope, still strong -- >2500.  And still no prior infection, so I didn't have an asymptomatic case.  Just another data point.

Did you have a level pre-booster? Reassuring to see that kind of level 3 months later.

Meanwhile in Israel they are finding diminishing returns in terms of VE against cases with 4th dose, no data yet on severe disease....

Whatever happened to testing of variant updated mrna vaccines?  Where the fuck are we with that?

 

Nearly a month after Sheba Medical Center launched a landmark study to test the efficacy of a fourth COVID shot, the hospital said Monday that this fourth booster was only partially effective in protecting against the Omicron strain.

“The vaccine, which was very effective against the previous strains, is less effective against the Omicron strain,” Prof. Gili Regev-Yochay, a lead researcher in the experiment said.

“We see an increase in antibodies, higher than after the third dose,” Regev-Yochay said. “However, we see many infected with Omicron who received the fourth dose. Granted, a bit less than in the control group, but still a lot of infections,” she added.

 

45 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Did you have a level pre-booster? Reassuring to see that kind of level 3 months later.

Meanwhile in Israel they are finding diminishing returns in terms of VE against cases with 4th dose, no data yet on severe disease....

Whatever happened to testing of variant updated mrna vaccines?  Where the fuck are we with that?

 

Nearly a month after Sheba Medical Center launched a landmark study to test the efficacy of a fourth COVID shot, the hospital said Monday that this fourth booster was only partially effective in protecting against the Omicron strain.

“The vaccine, which was very effective against the previous strains, is less effective against the Omicron strain,” Prof. Gili Regev-Yochay, a lead researcher in the experiment said.

“We see an increase in antibodies, higher than after the third dose,” Regev-Yochay said. “However, we see many infected with Omicron who received the fourth dose. Granted, a bit less than in the control group, but still a lot of infections,” she added.

 

Same shot as before?  To your point, these are new strains being treated with the original cocktails from Alpha, correct?

It seems like we will eventually settle into an annual vaccination similar to the flu. Any thoughts or studies on that?

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Did you have a level pre-booster? Reassuring to see that kind of level 3 months later.

Meanwhile in Israel they are finding diminishing returns in terms of VE against cases with 4th dose, no data yet on severe disease....

Whatever happened to testing of variant updated mrna vaccines?  Where the fuck are we with that?

 

Nearly a month after Sheba Medical Center launched a landmark study to test the efficacy of a fourth COVID shot, the hospital said Monday that this fourth booster was only partially effective in protecting against the Omicron strain.

“The vaccine, which was very effective against the previous strains, is less effective against the Omicron strain,” Prof. Gili Regev-Yochay, a lead researcher in the experiment said.

“We see an increase in antibodies, higher than after the third dose,” Regev-Yochay said. “However, we see many infected with Omicron who received the fourth dose. Granted, a bit less than in the control group, but still a lot of infections,” she added.

 

I'm team Pfizer.  Second dose was late February, and when I was tested Sept 4, my AB level was 325.  So, 6 months after dose 2, ABs had dropped a bunch.  Three months after boost, I'm over 2500, so pleased with that.

And yeah.....where ARE they with updating the MRNA vaccines for new variants?  Again, my vision is that these would end up being like the flu vaccine -- same basic package, updated for the most likely strain/variant in a given year.  So, get the Omicron update done (and I also understand that they may even be looking at formulations that might be able to handle future permutations better), and let's roll that out as the 2022 fall shot.

I fully expect, and would support, a future where our fall vaccination package is a flu shot and COVID shot, each formulated to target the dominant (or expected dominant) strain that year.  And, even with non-targeted vaccinations like we have now (mine isn't targeted at Omicron), we should at least have good protection against severe disease.  I would be A-OK with that.  EDIT -- I see that the quite smart TexasEd beat me to that punch.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Brisketexan

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Did you have a level pre-booster? Reassuring to see that kind of level 3 months later.

Meanwhile in Israel they are finding diminishing returns in terms of VE against cases with 4th dose, no data yet on severe disease....

Whatever happened to testing of variant updated mrna vaccines?  Where the fuck are we with that?

 

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

And yeah.....where ARE they with updating the MRNA vaccines for new variants? 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/moderna-ceo-says-data-omicron-specific-shot-likely-available-march-2022-01-17/

Saw this blurb about Moderna's work on a targeted Omicron vaccine last week.  They're working on it, but it's going to miss the peak, potentially becoming available in March or later.

And if the targeted vaccines have to go through the same set of trials every time, then I'm not sure they'll ever be able to get ahead of it and provide a vaccine for the current (or future expected) dominant strain, within a time window where it would make enough difference to be effective.

3 minutes ago, utee94 said:

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/moderna-ceo-says-data-omicron-specific-shot-likely-available-march-2022-01-17/

Saw this blurb about Moderna's work on a targeted Omicron vaccine last week.  They're working on it, but it's going to miss the peak, potentially becoming available in March or later.

And if the targeted vaccines have to go through the same set of trials every time, then I'm not sure they'll ever be able to get ahead of it and provide a vaccine for the current (or future expected) dominant strain, within a time window where it would make enough difference to be effective.

1 -- yeah, I'd fully expect that they would miss this particular peak.  We can turn around MRNA vaccines relatively fast now....but not THAT fast.

2 -- I've had this question before: the flu vaccine is updated based on the expected strain every year.  It doesn't have a long-term approval process (that is, we don't need an EUA for each year's flu vaccine, even though it was developed and rolled out in less than a year).  What is the mechanism/system for that, and could that be applied to the MRNA VOID vaccines?  That is, if enough of the delivery system remains the same, and only a few things are altered to address a new strain, does that get some sort of expedited review like the flu shot (presumably) gets each year?  I'm genuinely curious -- I don't know how that works.

5 minutes ago, utee94 said:

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/moderna-ceo-says-data-omicron-specific-shot-likely-available-march-2022-01-17/

Saw this blurb about Moderna's work on a targeted Omicron vaccine last week.  They're working on it, but it's going to miss the peak, potentially becoming available in March or later.

And if the targeted vaccines have to go through the same set of trials every time, then I'm not sure they'll ever be able to get ahead of it and provide a vaccine for the current (or future expected) dominant strain, within a time window where it would make enough difference to be effective.

I really think the key issue is how much "drift" in future variants.  Obviously Omicron was by far the furthest removed from the original strain hence so little effectiveness against infection.  If we all get an Omicron booster next fall will the next variant be close enough that it actually blunts a massive wave of infections or can this thing still mutate dramatically?  I've seen some virologists discuss this a bit and seems like everyone is pretty much just guessing at this point regarding what happens next.

Any information on the effectiveness of the booster as compared to only receiving the original 2 shot dosage as it relates to hospitalization/severe disease?

Just curious as I haven’t really seen anything on that yet.

Not sure if this needs to be it’s own thread but the website to sign up for 4 free Covid tests is now live. Takes about 20 seconds to sign up:

 

https://special.usps.com/testkits

1 hour ago, hornmpa96 said:

Any information on the effectiveness of the booster as compared to only receiving the original 2 shot dosage as it relates to hospitalization/severe disease?

Just curious as I haven’t really seen anything on that yet.

Yes, there was data provided out of the UK that essentially showed no statistical difference in critical care admissions, between getting 2 shots, and getting 3, until you get into the age 70+ cohort.

There was, however, a tremendous difference between getting 2 shots, and being unvaccinated.

 

1 hour ago, Firemans4Horn said:

Not sure if this needs to be it’s own thread but the website to sign up for 4 free Covid tests is now live. Takes about 20 seconds to sign up:

 

https://special.usps.com/testkits

Done.  Thanks!

Don't really care if this is CR, but give me a fucking break, Florida.

Orange County Medical Director placed on leave for sending an internal email bemoaning his dept.'s vaccination rate..

Quote

 

Dr. Raul Pino, who became a trusted voice of the pandemic response in the nation’s tourist capital, has been placed on administrative leave from his post as the state’s chief health officer in Orange County as the Florida Department of Health conducts an investigation.

Sources who spoke to the Orlando Sentinel on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss Pino’s status said he was placed on administrative leave after a Health Department employee complained about an email he sent Jan. 4 to agency staff about employee vaccination rates.

In the email, Pino said 77 of 568 employees had been fully vaccinated, including receiving a booster shot. Another 219 had received two shots.

“I am sorry but in the absence of reasonable and real reasons it is irresponsible not to be vaccinated,” Pino wrote in the email, according to the TV report. “We have been at this for two years, we were the first to give vaccines to the masses, we have done more than 300,000 and we are not even at 50%, pathetic.”

Pino, 58, declined to discuss the Health Department’s action, but an agency spokesperson confirmed his status.

“As the decision to get vaccinated is a personal medical choice that should be made free from coercion and mandates from employers, the employee in question has been placed on administrative leave, and the Florida Department of Health is conducting an inquiry to determine if any laws were broken in this case,” spokesperson Weesam Khoury said in an email Tuesday. “The Department is committed to upholding all laws, including the ban on vaccine mandates for government employees and will take appropriate action once additional information is known.”

 

 

 

Seems like the anti-vaxx crowd's favorite hangout---Cracker Barrel was 5+ years ahead of its time:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cracker-barrel-ordered-to-pay-9-4-million-after-man-drinks-cleaning-liquid/

Serving potable bleach to customers in order to prep their bodies to defeat Covid-19, in lieu of a vaccine.  Sure they got sued and now have to pay out a nearly 8-figure settlement...but isn't that a small price to pay for owning science, the other team, and being just in general---the best place to eat if you're a total fucking moronic piece of shit?  

52 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Seems like the anti-vaxx crowd's favorite hangout---Cracker Barrel was 5+ years ahead of its time:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cracker-barrel-ordered-to-pay-9-4-million-after-man-drinks-cleaning-liquid/

Serving potable bleach to customers in order to prep their bodies to defeat Covid-19, in lieu of a vaccine.  Sure they got sued and now have to pay out a nearly 8-figure settlement...but isn't that a small price to pay for owning science, the other team, and being just in general---the best place to eat if you're a total fucking moronic piece of shit?  

Wrong thread, asshole.

Bleach has been proposed as a treatment alternative to the vaccine, asshole.  

You're just upset because that woman from Cracker Barrel beat you at the pegging game.  

Edited January 20, 2022 by Lobo

Sorry, can't stand for Cracker Barrel slander, that's some good eats, especially the brekky, regardless of the redneck quotient.

On 1/18/2022 at 8:41 AM, Brisketexan said:

 

2 -- I've had this question before: the flu vaccine is updated based on the expected strain every year.  It doesn't have a long-term approval process (that is, we don't need an EUA for each year's flu vaccine, even though it was developed and rolled out in less than a year).  What is the mechanism/system for that, and could that be applied to the MRNA VOID vaccines?  That is, if enough of the delivery system remains the same, and only a few things are altered to address a new strain, does that get some sort of expedited review like the flu shot (presumably) gets each year?  I'm genuinely curious -- I don't know how that works.

tl;dr - the WHO sets global recommendations, the FDA chairs an advisory committee to pass that recommendation on to manufacturers, then standard lot release assays verify the effectiveness. And yes, I could totally see this happen for COVID strains. The question is will manufacturing be able to keep up with strain emergence. That said I'm still amazed we do this every year in f-ing eggs (which was a prime issue during the H1N1 variant year as it also took out the egg production).

An overview of the regulation of influenza vaccines in the United States

Spoiler

To maintain effectiveness, the composition of seasonal influenza vaccines must be reviewed and updated periodically to include the most current HA antigens expressed by circulating influenza wild‐type viruses. This is a complex, lengthy process that requires extensive collaboration among influenza manufacturers, vaccine regulators, and global public health laboratories. The process begins with the recommendations, coordinated globally by the World Health Organization (WHO), for the virus strains to be included in the vaccine.4 The WHO recommendations for the Northern Hemisphere, which are based on recent global surveillance data available each February, provide a guide to national public health authorities and vaccine manufacturers for the development and production of influenza vaccines for the following winter influenza season. However, as noted in the WHO recommendations, it is the responsibility of each national regulatory authority to approve the composition and formulation of the vaccines used in that country. Each year, soon after the WHO Northern Hemisphere vaccine recommendations are finalized, the FDA convenes its Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee (VRBPAC), typically in late February or early March, to recommend the virus strains that should be included in FDA‐licensed influenza vaccines for the next winter influenza season in the United States.

In the United States, licensed influenza vaccine manufacturers must submit a supplement to their license for review and obtain FDA approval before the updated version of the influenza vaccine containing new virus antigens can be distributed. Such supplements to inactivated and recombinant protein seasonal influenza vaccines do not require additional clinical data specific for the new strain. Supplements to the licensed live influenza virus vaccine require a study in approximately 300 adults prior to approval of the new strain to verify adequate attenuation. Manufacturing of influenza vaccine takes place over an approximately 6‐month time frame beginning prior to the VRBPAC strain selection and lasting until mid‐summer, when the trivalent or quadrivalent vaccine is formulated, filled, and distributed. The manufacturing timelines are tight and the process of producing influenza vaccine involves many sequential steps and overlapping processes. Even with technologic advancements, each of these steps and processes still requires time to complete, and there is limited flexibility in the timelines for manufacturing.

Candidate vaccine viruses, which have been adapted for high growth in embryonated eggs and verified by a WHO Collaborating Center as antigenically like the recommended vaccine strain, are provided to manufacturers to generate “seed viruses” for inactivated seasonal influenza vaccine production. The availability of a “high‐yield” candidate vaccine virus is a key step in manufacturing, because poorly growing viruses extend the time needed for producing a sufficient amount of vaccine antigen. Manufacturers' “seed viruses,” which have been passed several more times to improve growth in their production systems, are tested by the FDA in an HI assay to ensure they remain antigenically similar to the recommended vaccine strain. Candidate vaccine viruses used for manufacturing live attenuated influenza vaccines conform to the same WHO/VRBPAC recommendations, but are tested for antigenic identity at the WHO Collaborating Center at the CDC.

Production of each vaccine antigen to be included in the vaccine takes place sequentially over several months until late May, and in fact, production of at least one antigen usually begins at risk before the strain recommendations are finalized. In parallel with antigen production, FDA develops and calibrates reagents that are necessary for testing the potency and identity of each of the antigens included in inactivated and recombinant vaccines. The reagents are provided to the vaccine manufacturers and used by both manufacturers and FDA for testing, quality control, and release of the new formulation of the licensed seasonal influenza vaccines. Standardized reagents ensure that inactivated vaccines produced by multiple manufacturers contain the same amount of HA antigen for each of the recommended virus strains. During the vaccine production process, manufacturers of inactivated and recombinant influenza vaccines submit 3‐5 lots of monovalent vaccine produced for each strain for concurrence potency testing by the FDA. This process assures harmonization of the potency assay and is designed to minimize the chances of discrepancies between the potency assigned by the manufacturer and lot release testing done by the FDA for the final formulated vaccine that could result in delay of vaccine distribution. Although preparation of potency reagents has not delayed the production and availability of seasonal influenza vaccines in the United States, timely reagent production is challenging and always a potential bottleneck in influenza vaccine production.5

When all of the antigens that will constitute the trivalent or quadrivalent influenza vaccine have been produced, they are blended and the vaccine is formulated into standard dosages, filled, and finished by the manufacturers into final containers such as vials, syringes, and sprayers. Manufacturers submit their vaccine testing results, along with samples from each lot, to FDA for “lot release.” Typically, FDA approves the updated seasonal influenza vaccines with new labeling by the end of July, and as FDA releases specific lots, the manufacturers make these lots commercially available throughout the United States. The dating period, or expiry, of the vaccine is based on stability studies conducted by each manufacturer, but no final vaccine formulations in the United States are labeled with an expiry date that extends past June 30 of the prior winter influenza season. This chosen expiry date is well past the Northern Hemisphere influenza season and serves to avoid any possible confusion with the influenza vaccines produced for the subsequent influenza season.

 

2 hours ago, TXSooner518 said:

Sorry, can't stand for Cracker Barrel slander, that's some good eats, especially the brekky, regardless of the redneck quotient.

On 1/16/2022 at 10:11 AM, dcbc said:

On 1/15/2022 at 11:23 PM, Brisketexan said:

Mexico: miles smarter than the US.

For sure. We're still measuring intelligence in miles.

my intelligence is 61% greater in metric

As I have been saying for more than a year, the next generation of vaccines need to target helicase, reverse transcriptase and other proteins involved in replication. And personally, I would not target the entire proteins but rather the most highly conserved regions. These replication proteins seem to be targeted by T-Cells. I'm not involved in research anymore, but it does seem that the vaccine manufacturers are now at least beginning to follow this path.

8 hours ago, Bevo said:

As I have been saying for more than a year, the next generation of vaccines need to target helicase, reverse transcriptase and other proteins involved in replication. And personally, I would not target the entire proteins but rather the most highly conserved regions. These replication proteins seem to be targeted by T-Cells. I'm not involved in research anymore, but it does seem that the vaccine manufacturers are now at least beginning to follow this path.

Good idea. I'll get right on it.

14 hours ago, Bevo said:

As I have been saying for more than a year, the next generation of vaccines need to target helicase, reverse transcriptase and other proteins involved in replication. And personally, I would not target the entire proteins but rather the most highly conserved regions. These replication proteins seem to be targeted by T-Cells. I'm not involved in research anymore, but it does seem that the vaccine manufacturers are now at least beginning to follow this path.

5 hours ago, Bookman said:

Good idea. I'll get right on it.

On 1/20/2022 at 11:06 AM, TXSooner518 said:

Sorry, can't stand for Cracker Barrel slander, that's some good eats, especially the brekky, regardless of the redneck quotient.

The brekky?! The fuck is that?

11 minutes ago, achooloco said:

The brekky?! The fuck is that?

It’s hard for him to make words with a binkie in his mouth.

Preggers, hubs, and now the brekky?

11 minutes ago, slorch said:

Preggers, hubs, and now the brekky?

Prolly

24 minutes ago, slorch said:

Preggers, hubs, and now the brekky?

Call a presser.*
 

 

 

 

 

*I’ve always hated that one.

Bleach has been proposed as a treatment alternative to the vaccine, asshole.  
You're just upset because that woman from Cracker Barrel beat you at the pegging game.  

 

1 hour ago, achooloco said:

The brekky?! The fuck is that?

Sesh.  Periph.  It all makes me ragey.  Oh, and "ragey."