COVID-19 vaccine discussion

3 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Why we have not figured out a way to do drive through vaccinations amazes me. Apply online, they send you a confirmation, go to the nearest place and get the damn vaccine while listening to your favorite music. My father and MiL (who has stage 4 cancer) are very hesitant about going anywhere to get the vaccine.   

I took our family for drive through flu shots at the local hospital.  I am sure that they will do the same again once we have wide spread roll out of C19 vaccines.  

So we will have to redesign our logistics and distribution? Nah, do it first when you have smaller numbers, work out the problems and then be ready to scale up. 

2nd dose done today. See if any side effects with this one.

4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

So we will have to redesign our logistics and distribution? Nah, do it first when you have smaller numbers, work out the problems and then be ready to scale up. 

I don't disagree.

Drive-thrus options may create issues with the guidance of watching someone for 15 minutes post-shot.  The 15 minute wait creates a bottleneck in the process as vaccines can be injected faster than that. Regardless of drive-thru or within a building. At some point, there is no place for someone to wait if the med techs are working as fast as they can. And you have to create a waiting area that allows for distancing.

The vaccine locations need good scheduling and realistic times that they can provide the vaccine.  This will prevent long lines if people show up when they're scheduled. The locations also need to figure out how to run 12-18 hours per day, if not a few 24 hour locations.  Of course let's not forget that the hospital facilities are simultaneously overrun with COVID positive patients and attempting to run normal operations that keep the lights on. 

Which is why I would not use hospitals except for healthcare personnel. As for the waiting period, you sit in line, get your shot and pull forward and wait. One in one out. And you are correct, scheduling is they key vs. the free for all it seems is going on now. I will go in at 3AM if that is the time I am slotted. 

 

34 minutes ago, midtown said:

Talk about a super spreader event

The thought crossed my mind, how many will get covid  while waiting in line to get the vaccine. Wife told me they had someone show up the other day  to get the vaccine who said they had tested positive just 3 days before.

 

If everyone is masked up appropriately, little chance of it being a super spreader event.

Both my experiences at the hospital have been flawless as far the process goes. From registering for it, to scheduling (all online, either by phone app or web browser), to getting there (no line or waiting), with a well spaced waiting/monitoring area with seats with ability to immediately schedule 2nd dose and register for VSafe and personnel/materials readily available if one was to have a reaction.

Not sure if the same level of efficiency will be available when it’s opened to the public but as a sort of trial run, it’s been painless.

Another flaw in giving the vaccine and creating better delivery methods is that there is no central “they” that should have figured this out.  The fed and state officials seem to end their responsibility when they hand off the vaccine to the healthcare providers.  The next step is 1000s of groups or individuals, in Texas alone, that have been left to their own to figure out processes.  

10 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Another flaw in giving the vaccine and creating better delivery methods is that there is no central “they” that should have figured this out.  The fed and state officials seem to end their responsibility when they hand off the vaccine to the healthcare providers.  The next step is 1000s of groups or individuals, in Texas alone, that have been left to their own to figure out processes.  

This is a weird case to suddenly insist on pure Capitalist Federalism.  Not trying to Cloak Room this up - just think it's odd.

Got my first Moderna shot today at HEB

Thanks, science!

2 hours ago, Liquor and Poker said:

"Figuring out" requires someone first "trying to figure it out."  That's the part that hasn't happened here.  

anaphylaxis is hard to treat in a car

30 minutes ago, Bevo said:

anaphylaxis is hard to treat in a car

Yeah, but is it harder than treating the 100s of COVID patients who got sick waiting in 3-hour vaccine lines in the hospital hallways?

I looked up the federal allocation data to see what Texas is supposed to be getting.  They allocate Pfizer and Moderna amounts each week and plan a second shot for either three or four weeks later. Right now, they have allocated enough vaccine for a little less than 7% of Texans, including this week's allocation.

Here's a chart showing a blue line for first shot allocations and an orange line for second shots.  This assumes that we'll get only the allocations we have been promised as of today.  Obviously we'll get more in the following weeks, but you can start to see a trend.

I think the number of vaccines received is trailing the allocation, and the shots-in-arms are trailing vaccines received.  Hopefully we can resolve bottlenecks and get this stuff moving...

1 hour ago, SubliminalHorn said:

Got my first Moderna shot today at HEB

Thanks, science!

Holy shit, it was open!

35 minutes ago, Liquor and Poker said:

Yeah, but is it harder than treating the 100s of COVID patients who got sick waiting in 3-hour vaccine lines in the hospital hallways?

First people should be encouraged to not wait in line. Schedule people at a certain time, and strongly request they don't arrive early.  Second, if a line develops because of delays or people arriving early, ensure there is a plan to keep people adequately spaced.  Grab non-medical personnel to assist.

Not to mention that people should go get the vaccine by themselves with an exception of 1 person to assist, but only when absolutely necessary. You don't get to bring the whole family when grandma gets her vaccine. It's not JC Penney. I would go as far to turn people away if they bring multiple people.  Grandma is baby-sitting 5 grandkids today? Reschedule.

 

49 minutes ago, Liquor and Poker said:

Yeah, but is it harder than treating the 100s of COVID patients who got sick waiting in 3-hour vaccine lines in the hospital hallways?

You would get sued for one but not the other. Anyway, at ARC they had a fantastic setup. They had a very long line of about 300 people at opening. They opened at 10:00 and had people pass out multiple clipboards and pens. Before 10:15 they had already seen close to 100 people. They went from the outside 6ft. apart lines into the immunization room and had a data entry person and a nurse for each person entering as well as a person directing people. After the vaccination, people were sent to an open arboretum to wait 15min and after the self-timed 15min. people were allowed to leave. No issues and very low chance of catching COVID from the process.

36 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

 

Not to mention that people should go get the vaccine by themselves with an exception of 1 person to assist, but only when absolutely necessary. You don't get to bring the whole family when grandma gets her vaccine. It's not JC Penney. I would go as far to turn people away if they bring multiple people.  Grandma is baby-sitting 5 grandkids today? Reschedule.

 

Austin did this with their drive-thru testing.  If there were more than 2 people in the vehicle they kicked you out at the first checkpoint.

51 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

First people should be encouraged to not wait in line. Schedule people at a certain time, and strongly request they don't arrive early.  Second, if a line develops because of delays or people arriving early, ensure there is a plan to keep people adequately spaced.  Grab non-medical personnel to assist.

Not to mention that people should go get the vaccine by themselves with an exception of 1 person to assist, but only when absolutely necessary. You don't get to bring the whole family when grandma gets her vaccine. It's not JC Penney. I would go as far to turn people away if they bring multiple people.  Grandma is baby-sitting 5 grandkids today? Reschedule.

 

That all makes sense. But this just underscores the need for a coordinated, uniform process.  Not a "here's my idea" at every hospital, pharmacy, grocery store and urgent care.

46 minutes ago, Bevo said:

They opened at 10:00 and had people pass out multiple clipboards and pens.

What is the nature of the paperwork and was it specific to the site, or the same paperwork for everyone no matter where you get it?

It would be easier to print it at home and bring it with you, or at least bring your own clipboard and pen.  Or use a phone.

5 hours ago, BBQ2Bayou said:

What does happen if you get the first shot right after you sucked in some covid from the dude next to there? 

From the trials, don't expect to see any protection from the vaccine for 10--14 days after it goes in your arm.  There was some nurse in CA last week that tested positive for covid 6 days after getting vaccinated.

My theory, which correlates with my anecdotal experience, is that the people who you are more likely to encounter in a line are going to be wearing masks and not trying to invade your space, as opposed to the mouthbreathing bareface storming through Target yelling about "muh rights."  While this isn't ideal, and a drive up vaccination clinic would be preferable (and we'll probably have that sooner or later), my guess is that it's not going to lead to much of an uptick in cases.

Also, when it comes to the drive up vax clinics, don't forget that you have to sit in a room for monitoring for fifteen minutes after you get the shot in case you have a reaction.  A little harder for them to monitor you in your car.  I sat spaced out with a handful of other people in a room with a nurse after my shot.

Edited January 4, 2021 by dcbc

6 minutes ago, Texas Jeff said:

What is the nature of the paperwork and was it specific to the site, or the same paperwork for everyone no matter where you get it?

It would be easier to print it at home and bring it with you, or at least bring your own clipboard and pen.  Or use a phone.

About half a page of paperwork for me.  Name.  DOB.  Address.  In the next step, I had to write my name, zip code and dob on the little card that you bring back with you to get your second dose.  Took all of 2 minutes. 

36 minutes ago, Texas Jeff said:

What is the nature of the paperwork and was it specific to the site, or the same paperwork for everyone no matter where you get it?

It would be easier to print it at home and bring it with you, or at least bring your own clipboard and pen.  Or use a phone.

They pulled the pens out of boxes. The clipboards may have also been new. They probably had 35 clipboards and wiped them down between patients. Very short questionnaire w/ maybe 5 questions - are you sure you aren't pregnant, have you had a severe anaphylactic reaction to a vaccine...

Edited January 4, 2021 by Bevo

31 minutes ago, Bevo said:

They pulled the pens out of boxes. The clipboards may have also been new. They probably had 35 clipboards and wiped them down between patients. Very short questionnaire w/ maybe 5 questions -are you sure you aren’t pregnant, have you had a severe anaphylactic reaction to a vaccine...

Am pretty certain about the bolded. Dunno about Mrs. Brat.

2 hours ago, Bevo said:

You would get sued for one but not the other. Anyway, at ARC they had a fantastic setup. They had a very long line of about 300 people at opening. They opened at 10:00 and had people pass out multiple clipboards and pens. Before 10:15 they had already seen close to 100 people. They went from the outside 6ft. apart lines into the immunization room and had a data entry person and a nurse for each person entering as well as a person directing people. After the vaccination, people were sent to an open arboretum to wait 15min and after the self-timed 15min. people were allowed to leave. No issues and very low chance of catching COVID from the process.

That was almost the same setup as the hospital I went to except for the 6ft apart thing, but there were signs everywhere encouraging it.  All paperwork was done before I got to the station and I actually had my vaccination card before I had my shot. They also had a nice spread of snacks and drinks to choose from while you waited the 15 minutes. 

Friend of mine lives near Orlando, Florida just posted this:

”I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, yeah!  Patti and I both got our first China Virus vaccine shots this afternoon.  The procedure was very well organized.  We arrived twenty minutes before our scheduled appointment.  We're in a line from hell with other cars.  You MUST have a bar code in-order to get into the line....they were turning cars away that did not have appointments.  So the line creeps along and we never left our car.  Was forty minutes to get to the station where you get the shot.  The long line split into twenty injection stations.  Car license was scanned, reservation bar code scanned, asked a couple medical questions and an EMT gave me the shot thru the window, Neither me or Patti felt the jab.  Was handed a CDC vaccination record card with everything filled in and our next shot is February 2nd.  Word on the street is you'll need this shot card one of these days to get your new passport showing you have been vaccinated.  We sent out to the parking lot where we were again scanned and told we needed to wait twenty minutes for any side effects.  End of story!  

I'd recommend the shot to anyone, even those in upper Michigan By the middle of February, we should be protected from the virus?  My kids told us that we could still give them the virus even if we can't get it.  We will behave for now and wear a mask in consideration of others but at least I'll be protected from the a-holes that don't wear masks.“

6 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Friend of mine lives near Orlando, Florida just posted this:

”I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, yeah!  Patti and I both got our first China Virus vaccine shots this afternoon.  The procedure was very well organized.  We arrived twenty minutes before our scheduled appointment.  We're in a line from hell with other cars.  You MUST have a bar code in-order to get into the line....they were turning cars away that did not have appointments.  So the line creeps along and we never left our car.  Was forty minutes to get to the station where you get the shot.  The long line split into twenty injection stations.  Car license was scanned, reservation bar code scanned, asked a couple medical questions and an EMT gave me the shot thru the window, Neither me or Patti felt the jab.  Was handed a CDC vaccination record card with everything filled in and our next shot is February 2nd.  Word on the street is you'll need this shot card one of these days to get your new passport showing you have been vaccinated.  We sent out to the parking lot where we were again scanned and told we needed to wait twenty minutes for any side effects.  End of story!  

I'd recommend the shot to anyone, even those in upper Michigan By the middle of February, we should be protected from the virus?  My kids told us that we could still give them the virus even if we can't get it.  We will behave for now and wear a mask in consideration of others but at least I'll be protected from the a-holes that don't wear masks.“

Lot to unpack there, from "China Virus," to "word on the street" to "my kids told us..." to "we will behave for now."

But the result is great.

12 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

My kids told us that we could still give them the virus even if we can't get it.

No.

That all makes sense. But this just underscores the need for a coordinated, uniform process.  Not a "here's my idea" at every hospital, pharmacy, grocery store and urgent care.

The problem I see with that is that there is a huge amount of variation between the types of facilities that can administer it and the regions in which they are located. A uniform process might introduce standards and protocols that make logistical sense for a hospital but not a private clinic or CVS. Or perhaps it works at an HEB in Austin but not an HEBin Big Spring. That could potentially deter facilities that are otherwise interested in providing it due to administrative or logistical barriers.

I lean more in the direction of giving the facilities more autonomy to determine how they feel they can be most effective. They know their own capabilities, strengths, and weaknesses more than a government committee in another city or state. Maybe it will look sluggish and inefficient in places, but hopefully the lower degree of oversight will make it extremely easy to become a vaccine provider and reach a broader degree of the population faster.

7 minutes ago, Bevo said:

No.

I think that that is a reference to whether the vax is sterilizing and can prevent transmission. There are no definitive data, but I think that its likely. 

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

I think that that is a reference to whether the vax is sterilizing and can prevent transmission. There are no definitive data, but I think that its likely. 

I thought I just read that you can still transmit it to others even though you’re protected. 

16 hours ago, Pablo said:

Planning on calling my asthma/allergy doc tomorrow, but was wondering my qualifications for 1B with the news that Texas is allowing 1B.

Late 40s, had asthma/allergies since birth, highly allergic to tree nuts. Carry EpiPen due to those and other allergic reactions I've tested for over the years, stings, etc.

Also overweight and take a low dose HBP pill.  I've had flu shot many times, without adverse reactions.

As far as I know, I haven't had the rona, no tests but also no obvious symptoms. 

have been fairly good to avoid the big crowds, bars, protests, Karens, etc.

 

Called my asthma/allergy doc, they aren't getting any vaccines.  They advised to go through my primary doc to get approved.

I asked them what their experience was so far with the virus and they said that there's thinking that the maintenance inhalers for asthmatics is providing a type of resistance to getting the virus.

They've had some patients with it, but less than they expected.  They advised that I should get the vaccine even with my allergies, as long as I hadn't previously had a reaction to a vaccine I should be fine.

They had 1 patient who had a minor reaction to the first shot and was advised they couldn't get the 2nd shot.   They said even the first shot should provide protection for up to a year.

Guess I need to start looking out for my HEB (when they're open) to have appointments.

17 minutes ago, Bevo said:

No.

Even so, it might keep them on their toes about slacking off on safety protocols.

He has had part of one lung removed several years ago (lung cancer - former heavy smoker) and his wife had a severe stroke 10 years ago that she has almost fully recovered from.

That system sounds pretty slow, and may not be conducive to mass vaccinations.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Armybrat

2 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

That system sounds pretty slow, and may not be conducive to mass vaccinations.

It went incredibly fast. I was impressed with their efficiency, actually. I thought I would have to vouch for my staff. They were fine without my help. Really, I can't imagine how it could have gone any better.

Just now, Bevo said:

It went incredibly fast. I was impressed with their efficiency, actually. I thought I would have to vouch for my staff. They were fine without my help. Really, I can't imagine how it could have gone any better.

I was referring to the drive-thru system in my Florida friend’s quoted post.

16 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

I thought I just read that you can still transmit it to others even though you’re protected. 

I think that is the assumption that many of the recommendations moving forward will be based on, but I don't think there is anything definitive to work with. 

44 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

I lean more in the direction of giving the facilities more autonomy to determine how they feel they can be most effective. They know their own capabilities, strengths, and weaknesses more than a government committee in another city or state. Maybe it will look sluggish and inefficient in places, but hopefully the lower degree of oversight will make it extremely easy to become a vaccine provider and reach a broader degree of the population faster.

I mean, OK, M.D. Anderson, or Southwestern, or Presby  - someplace like that, sure.  But Next Level Urgent Care and Check Cashing?

 

34 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I think that is the assumption that many of the recommendations moving forward will be based on, but I don't think there is anything definitive to work with. 

By what mechanism? The virus would have to be able to replicate in the body yet not cause any symptoms. That is highly unlikely. The only other possibility is for the virus to lay dormant in certain cells. If that occurred then the efficacy of the vaccine would be low not high. Maybe, people are referring to the lag time between the first and second dose. Anyway, I am sticking with my answer of NO. It can for sure screw up antigen testing, though.

12 minutes ago, Bevo said:

By what mechanism? The virus would have to be able to replicate in the body yet not cause any symptoms. That is highly unlikely. The only other possibility is for the virus to lay dormant in certain cells. If that occurred then the efficacy of the vaccine would be low not high. Maybe, people are referring to the lag time between the first and second dose. Anyway, I am sticking with my answer of NO. It can for sure screw up antigen testing, though.

Yeah, that is my position as well. I think it likely that the vax sterilizes and prevents/reduces transmission, but there is no definitive data. 

I volunteered for the Janssen two dose phase 3 trial. I'm supposed to go get the vaccine or placebo later this week. Quick question... will doing this effect my ability to get a Pfizer/Moderna vaccine once they are widely available in a few months? For example, the efficacy of the Janssen vaccine sucks and I decide I want to get the other one or something like that. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by StruggleBus

1 minute ago, StruggleBus said:

I volunteered for the Janssen two dose phase 3 trial. I'm supposed to go get the vaccine or placebo later this week. Quick question... will doing this effect my ability to get a Pfizer/Moderna vaccine once they are widely available in a few months?

You'll get dropped from the trial when you get one of the others.  

1 minute ago, StruggleBus said:

I volunteered for the Janssen two dose phase 3 trial. I'm supposed to go get the vaccine or placebo later this week. Quick question... will doing this effect my ability to get a Pfizer/Moderna vaccine once they are widely available in a few months?

It could. If the clinical trial is still ongoing in two months, you won't know if you received drug or placebo. You won't be able to get vaccinated by another vaccine without knowing this.

48 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Yeah, that is my position as well. I think it likely that the vax sterilizes and prevents/reduces transmission, but there is no definitive data. 

I agree.  Vaccines likely prevent infection (not just symptoms), although not much data on this yet.  There’s good data that this is the case with immunity from natural infection (prevents infection - not just symptomatic infection), and hopefully we will have data from the vaccines soon.  So if you can’t get it, you can’t spread it.  

Interestingly, my mom in her 70s got COVID about 3 weeks ago.  Fortunately, she had a mild case, but my dad (in his 70s) tested negative and never got symptoms.  My dad was in the Pfizer trial and found out today that he got vaccine and not placebo.  So, I guess the vaccine may have prevented him from getting it from my mom.  

1 hour ago, StruggleBus said:

I volunteered for the Janssen two dose phase 3 trial. I'm supposed to go get the vaccine or placebo later this week. Quick question... will doing this effect my ability to get a Pfizer/Moderna vaccine once they are widely available in a few months? For example, the efficacy of the Janssen vaccine sucks and I decide I want to get the other one or something like that. 

One or the other.  Don't fuck up a trial you are in by getting one of Pfizer or Moderna and not telling them.  It's not totally impossible for Janssen to determine if you get it, but it would not be smart to risk screwing up their results.

10 minutes ago, SizzleChest said:

One or the other.  Don't fuck up a trial you are in by getting one of Pfizer or Moderna and not telling them.  It's not totally impossible for Janssen to determine if you get it, but it would not be smart to risk screwing up their results.

Yeah. I get that. Thanks for the feedback.

Texas week 4 sites are out:

https://dshs.texas.gov/news/updates/COVIDVaccineAllocation-Week4.pdf

6 minutes ago, Texas Jeff said:

Texas week 4 sites are out:

https://dshs.texas.gov/news/updates/COVIDVaccineAllocation-Week4.pdf

Well that's an underwhelming list. 

3 hours ago, Bevo said:

No.

 

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

I think that that is a reference to whether the vax is sterilizing and can prevent transmission. There are no definitive data, but I think that its likely. 

 

2 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

I thought I just read that you can still transmit it to others even though you’re protected. 

I think that guy's kids just want him to stay the fuck away for a number of other reasons. 

3 hours ago, Armybrat said:

"My kids told us that we could still give them the virus even if we can't get it.  We will behave for now and wear a mask in consideration of others but at least I'll be protected from the a-holes that don't wear masks.“

Can you spread the virus after getting the Covid-19 Vaccine?  We don't know because that wasn't what the Phase 3 trails were looking for and nobody has had the time to do a study on that yet.

The published data to date for the Moderna Phase 3 Study showing 94.1% effectiveness was only looking for people who developed symptoms.   After getting the 2nd dose, someone would call and check on the test subjects every week or so to ask about symptoms.    We know from the published results that 11 people who got the vaccine in the trial did get symptoms and test positive for Covid-19, but none were serious.  This is far different from the placebo group that had 185 positives and 30 serious cases.  

From the results of the trial, it can be concluded that the Moderna Vaccine:

1. prevented most people from having Covid-19 symptoms and
2. completely prevented serious cases 

What is unknown is how many people in the study became asymptotic positives.  Maybe none, or maybe a lot of people got really mild (asymptomatic) cases of Covid-19 for a short period.  We just don't know, because they study wasn't doing constant viral load testing....that would be really hard on a huge trial.  

 https://www.fredhutch.org/en/news/center-news/2020/12/covid-19-vaccines-transmission.html

 

Since we don't know, the sound advice is to continue to wear a mask, for the benefit of others.

Edited January 5, 2021 by 0xdeadbeef

34 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Well that's an underwhelming list. 

Co-signed.  I felt OK about things last week, but this is depressing.