COVID-19 vaccine discussion

Heaven forbid people actually overreact with caution to the deadliest virus in our lifetimes

 

the horror

1 hour ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Heaven forbid people actually overreact with caution to the deadliest virus in our lifetimes

 

the horror

We took away the jobs of nurses and frontline both medical and non medical over fake news about suppression of transmission and ignorance of basic immunology. Just straight up tribal signaling based on magical thinking. But ballgame I guess. 

On 6/8/2024 at 1:44 PM, Anastasis said:

We took away the jobs of nurses and frontline both medical and non medical over fake news about suppression of transmission and ignorance of basic immunology. Just straight up tribal signaling based on magical thinking. But ballgame I guess. 

And now we have a severe shortage of medical staff across the country.  Which needs to be included in the cost/benefit analysis 

If only there was a way to attract nurses and P.A.'s from other countries to the U.S. to backfill our healthcare provider shortage?  Like some kinda system.  Nah, forget it.

27 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

If only there was a way to attract nurses and P.A.'s from other countries to the U.S. to backfill our healthcare provider shortage?  Like some kinda system.  Nah, forget it.

Some of the 9 million in the last 3 years have to have some training.  Just from a pure statistical analysis.

37 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

And now we have a severe shortage of medical staff across the country.  Which needs to be included in the cost/benefit analysis 

What?

2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

What?

Only speaking from second hand info from acquaintances in medicine.  To be clear I am referring to nurses.  I know some who are still making bank traveling to fill in shortages.

 I realize you are in the field so would gladly listen to other perspectives 

Just now, Incredulity said:

Only speaking from second hand info from acquaintances in medicine.  To be clear I am referring to nurses.  I know some who are still making bank traveling to fill in shortages.

 I realize you are in the field so would gladly listen to other perspectives 

The shortage has nothing to do with refusal to be vaccinated against COVID. I have privileges at hospitals that are affiliated with all the major systems in Texas except ascension health and none require Covid vaccination for medical staff at this point. I assume it’s the same for employees. There was an exodus from nursing due to burnout from dealing with the onslaught of the critically ill and dying and the endless double shifts during Covid. That and the aging of the population are the main reasons for shortages 

11 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

The shortage has nothing to do with refusal to be vaccinated against COVID.

Nothing?

really?

absolute zero effect?  Thats what you’re saying?

Edited June 10 by Incredulity

20 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Nothing?

really?

absolute zero effect?  Thats what you’re saying?

In June of 2024? Nothing 

Oh, maybe a few of the unvaxxed nurses from 2021 who died of Covid. Yeah they may not have been replaced yet

4 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

In June of 2024? Nothing 

Oh, maybe a few of the unvaxxed nurses from 2021 who died of Covid. Yeah they may not have been replaced yet

7 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

And your perspective is what?

that so many bailed during the time period after vaccines became available and before mandatory employment vax went away and never came back?

 

4 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

So it is your assertion that there are large numbers of nurses refusing to return to the workforce in 2024 because they were fired for not getting a vaccine in 2021? Do you have a link? I cannot find a peer reviewed article that shows a significant decline in nurse staffing levels due to refusing mandatory vaccinations.
 

There is an American Bar Association article from 2 years ago that quotes an executive saying “we can’t afford to lose any” regardless of the reason. But as I said, now in June of 2024 anyone who was out of work solely for vaccination status has long since found employment if they wanted to. 

As far as Covid burnout I know nurses who have left the profession because of it, and my anecdotal experience is reflected in studies eg

Burnout from Covid primary driver for nurses leaving profession

18 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

And your perspective is what?

that so many bailed during the time period after vaccines became available and before mandatory employment vax went away and never came back?

 

Yeah, I don't buy that.  Unless they banked so much money during covid they could walk away from their chosen field, I can't see how that could be a long-term effect.

7 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

So it is your assertion that there are large numbers of nurses refusing to return to the workforce in 2024 because they were fired for not getting a vaccine in 2021? Do you have a link? I cannot find a peer reviewed article that shows a significant decline in nurse staffing levels due to refusing mandatory vaccinations.
 

There is an American Bar Association article from 2 years ago that quotes an executive saying “we can’t afford to lose any” regardless of the reason. But as I said, now in June of 2024 anyone who was out of work solely for vaccination status has long since found employment if they wanted to. 

As far as Covid burnout I know nurses who have left the profession because of it, and my anecdotal experience is reflected in studies eg

Burnout from Covid primary driver for nurses leaving profession

 

All service industries have had a problem with staffing since Covid.

20 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

All service industries have had a problem with staffing since Covid.

His assertion was Covid vax mandates were a main driver of the current nursing shortage. There is no evidence of that 

50 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

So it is your assertion that there are large numbers of nurses refusing to return to the workforce in 2024 because they were fired for not getting a vaccine in 2021?

How many people have you ever hired or fired?  Is it your assertion that people will line up to reapply for a job they have been contentiously fired from?  L O fucking L

31 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

All service industries have had a problem with staffing since Covid.

Of course.  The bullshit ran off thousands.  And the bullshit isn’t just lose your job vax mandates.  There are many who made the rational decision to stop working because they couldn’t get child care because all those were shut down and are now a fraction of pre-pandemic availability. 
 

You really think all that toothpaste just goes right back In the tube?

How many people have you ever hired or fired?  Is it your assertion that people will line up to reapply for a job they have been contentiously fired from?  L O fucking L

Uh yea people do it all the time. They’re “x” at one organization, get let go and get a job as “x” at another organization.

2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

How many people have you ever hired or fired?  Is it your assertion that people will line up to reapply for a job they have been contentiously fired from?  L O fucking L

More than 20, less than 100.

The same position? Of course not. Is it your assertion that people fired from one job in their profession will never seek a job in that field again?

Again, I’m happy to consider any study you link showing Covid 19 vaccine mandates as a contributor to current nursing shortages. 

Don't hold your breath.

24 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Don't hold your breath.

Do it too long and you'll turn into Incredulity. 

Amazing how the pandemic either a) broke people’s brains or b) exposed how fucking incredibly stupid they were all along.

 

Or c) both.

15 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

The shortage has nothing to do with refusal to be vaccinated against COVID. I have privileges at hospitals that are affiliated with all the major systems in Texas except ascension health and none require Covid vaccination for medical staff at this point. I assume it’s the same for employees. There was an exodus from nursing due to burnout from dealing with the onslaught of the critically ill and dying and the endless double shifts during Covid. That and the aging of the population are the main reasons for shortages 

I don't know what it's like in medicine or nursing but pharmacy is experiencing an admissions crisis. Students just don't have interest in the profession anymore. When I graduated there were about 17,000 students who took the national licensing exam. Last year there were only 11,500 grads who took it. 

34 minutes ago, HRSchenker said:

I don't know what it's like in medicine or nursing but pharmacy is experiencing an admissions crisis. Students just don't have interest in the profession anymore. When I graduated there were about 17,000 students who took the national licensing exam. Last year there were only 11,500 grads who took it. 

How many pharmacies were there then as compared to now?  Are there just too many Walgreens, cvs, and rite aids now?

16 hours ago, Incredulity said:

Only speaking from second hand info from acquaintances in medicine.  To be clear I am referring to nurses.  I know some who are still making bank traveling to fill in shortages.

 I realize you are in the field so would gladly listen to other perspectives 

 

16 hours ago, Incredulity said:

Nothing?

really?

absolute zero effect?  Thats what you’re saying?

 

15 hours ago, Incredulity said:

 

13 hours ago, Hefeweizen said:

Amazing how the pandemic either a) broke people’s brains or b) exposed how fucking incredibly stupid they were all along.

 

Or c) both.

To be fair, we've all been able to see Incredulity's posts since this board started.

12 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

To be fair, we've all been able to see Incredulity's posts since this board started.

On 6/6/2024 at 11:50 AM, Sawbonz said:

I’m not giving a medical opinion. I’m giving my personal opinion that if you are taking advice on a novel virus from anyone other than an infectious disease specialist, you’re a fucking idiot.

Most old-timey chiropractors could cure that.

14 hours ago, Hefeweizen said:

Amazing how the pandemic either a) broke people’s brains or b) exposed how fucking incredibly stupid they were all along.

Or c) both.

Any country that wants to destroy the US, just needs to buy out Chili’s and SuperCuts and shut them down, since a lack of access to those places really messed up a lot of people mentally.  Even people who didn’t normally frequent those places were devastated at the thought of not being able to eat our or get their hair cut.

At least the government has seen how people will react to a mass pandemic and we pushed the vaccine development infrastructure pretty hard, so we’ve got that going for us

Edited June 10 by atomheartbevo

13 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Any country that wants to destroy the US, just needs to buy out Chili’s and SuperCuts and shut them down, since a lack of access to those places really messed up a lot of people mentally.  Even people who didn’t normally frequent those places were devastated at the thought of not being able to eat our or get their hair cut.

At least the government has seen how people will react to a mass pandemic and we pushed the vaccine development infrastructure pretty hard, so we’ve got that going for us

To be fair, Chili's salsa is awesome.

Ironically, a lady at Supercuts told me the secret to great salsa.  She was right.  Haircut still sucked.  (Might have been the hair.)

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Ironically, a lady at Supercuts told me the secret to great salsa.  She was right.  Haircut still sucked.  (Might have been the hair.)

Is this the Alanis Morrissette kind of irony?  

Just now, Dahobbs said:

Is this the Alanis Morrissette kind of irony?  

I did keep one hand in my pocket, so maybe?

SIL just got covid in Cali.  Son’s roommate in Louisiana as well, both in last two days.  It’s alive and well.  Both multiple jabbed, both with mild cases. 

Yep, client went to a big conference in DC last week. Got covid somewhere along the voyage. Feels like crap and is not able to work on the project at hand.

From your science-types, apparently in late stage testing, there was promising results late last week on the Covid-Flu joint vaccination shot.  I didn't know what to make of the story, but it sounded promising.  I still will continue to get them separately.  I held off on this last booster shot schedule because of some other health shit.  But I think I should get one this Autumn again.  And then Flu shot a couple months later.  

TexCares brought me back in to test my blood after dropping me from the program because of some other 'marker' (I don't remember the terms they used) because I had gone so long with so much exposure, I didn't get it.  And then I got it right after my last booster (I didn't notice it at the time).  So they're doing a whole study reboot on shit like that.  But I didn't go in for more blood draw.

In other news, Chili's chips are for shit.  But the salsa is good.  Much as I give people shit for eating at that dump, when I traveled weekly for work...if I saw an airport Chili's...I'd put down 2 baskets and 3 beers without taking a breath.  I wouldn't storm a state capitol building about it, but I'd be "Pleased Wait to be Seated" 

2 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

How many pharmacies were there then as compared to now?  Are there just too many Walgreens, cvs, and rite aids now?

4500 pharmacies have shut down since 10 years ago. In the state of Washington they've seen nearly 10% of their pharmacies shut down since last year. It has more to do with insurances reimbursement and pharmacist opt out than a surplus of stores. 

33 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

SIL just got covid in Cali.  Son’s roommate in Louisiana as well, both in last two days.  It’s alive and well.  Both multiple jabbed, both with mild cases. 

That's to be expected. I've been saying since the original clinical trials that for lasting immunity and more complete protection, we are going to go after multiple targets. Typically, targets are the virus replication proteins. None of the developers want to do this because of the expense of clinical trials vs. payback and the increased risk of side effects. But, IMO without such an approach, we will continue to see new subvariants and non-lethal infections.

Edited June 10 by Bevo

Yep, my sis just came back from an Alaskan cruise, and brought home a nice case of covid.  Didn't turn out too bad.  (Quite vaxxed but has still caught it a few times like most people.)

3 hours ago, HRSchenker said:

I don't know what it's like in medicine or nursing but pharmacy is experiencing an admissions crisis. Students just don't have interest in the profession anymore. When I graduated there were about 17,000 students who took the national licensing exam. Last year there were only 11,500 grads who took it. 

And ~1/3 of those don't enter the job market, they went on to do pgy1 residencies, with some number going on to do a pgy2 after that. Constraining the output of new grads, skimming off a sizable number to post-grad training, I assume a majority who those ending up in hospital or industry rather than traditional community pharmacy. Maybe a shift in interest in the profession but also a number of other factors choking out the numbers headed straight to a community pharmacy setting. 

24 minutes ago, HRSchenker said:

4500 pharmacies have shut down since 10 years ago. In the state of Washington they've seen nearly 10% of their pharmacies shut down since last year. It has more to do with insurances reimbursement and pharmacist opt out than a surplus of stores. 

That's crazy.  I realize the insurance model has probably hurt their model, particularly the smaller shops.  But with a lot of fields like that, don't discount these two issues:

1.  Multi-generational pass-downs of practices.  Yeah, nobody leaves a Duane-Reade location to their kids who studies pharmacy.  But in a lot of exurban/rural areas, the parent would practice for decades.  One of the kids would go to school and then take over the practice when dad retired.  That model is deader than dead.  in PE, we see it all the time in Vet/Animal practices and Optometry especially.  Dad needs to sell out to retire, a young doctor can't afford it alongside their student loans.  So a fund swoops in, buys up 10 in the MSA, the new vet or doctor is brought in.  they consolidate services, trim expenses, etc.  the usual model.  It's happening with 1-3 location pharmacies as well.  Same thing with Rx.  Young pharmacist can't afford to buy their way in.  PE firm consolidates a dozen small pharmacies across several counties.  Rinse and repeat.  Or just shut them down and make better use of the real estate.  Speaking of which...

2.  Another reason for so many shutdowns is the massive real estate overhead of chain pharmacies.  Just an anecdotal example.  On our main street alone, there are 3 well-known pharmacy chains (plus one compound pharmacy and a 'wholistic' pharmacy in People's).  They big 3 are always busy as hell with pickups, shots, consultations, drive-thru, etc.  But there's almost nobody else doing any other shopping in the store.  Sure, somebody grab a candy or a hygiene product while they wait, but you see this in your communities as well.  Chains paying $30-$40/ft2 for 6,000 square feet and 80 parking spaces on a full acre on the off-chance that after you pickup your pills, you might buy at 15% marked up greeting card?  And there's really no way they can pass those real estate costs to you just because you get your refills there because drug pricing has to be much more uniform than all the other shit they sell that nobody buys.  

Folks will always need their medicine.  But Walgreen's is realizing they don't need to pick it up at a location with a 30-year NNN Lease bleeding cash from the rest of the operation.  So they fold.  

12 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

in PE, we see it all the time in Vet/Animal practices

We have had to search for a few vets between chronic issues for the dogs and moving. One thing that has popped (from one side of the equation) is the lamentation of how PE groups own so many vets now and the care is terrible as their mandate is generic care and turnover, to squeez every drop of profit out of them.  Including prescribing higher cost designer meds when cheaper, older ones would work. 
 

 

Oh yeah, the model is great financially.  But it sucks for quality of care.  You see it in classic "father/son" models from Vet to Dentistry to Optometry to Pharmacy.  The child doesn't want to stick around in the town to take over the Mom & Pop shop who worked to provide excellent care, so they bolt for other opportunities.  So you get the practitioner from a few towns over to hustle all around and run 3 clinics poorly instead of 1 clinic really well.  With sliced staff and increased charges.  

Gosh, I mean, is there NOTHING that PE doesn't make just LOADS better?

Massage parlors?  

1 hour ago, YGIFS said:

Folks will always need their medicine.  But Walgreen's is realizing they don't need to pick it up at a location with a 30-year NNN Lease bleeding cash from the rest of the operation.  So they fold.  

Even as we see things like Aetna buying CVS so that they control their bottom line customers’ healthcare even more, Amazon is going hard on the pharmacy stuff.

A year or two down the road, we need to come back to this topic, because I have a feeling that things will change rapidly, for better or for worse.

2 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Even as we see things like Aetna buying CVS so that they control their bottom line customers’ healthcare even more, Amazon is going hard on the pharmacy stuff.

A year or two down the road, we need to come back to this topic, because I have a feeling that things will change rapidly, for better or for worse.

What could go wrong with giant, solely profit-motivated enterprises having exclusive control over functionally all outlets for medical and pharmacy care?

2 hours ago, HRSchenker said:

4500 pharmacies have shut down since 10 years ago. In the state of Washington they've seen nearly 10% of their pharmacies shut down since last year. It has more to do with insurances reimbursement and pharmacist opt out than a surplus of stores. 

Not as many bogus opiod prescriptions to to fill as there were 10 years ago.