Brian Fantana

Very busy today but again, appreciate the honest conversation @SL Xpress @atomheartbevo @bolverket al.

I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you said, but I have some notes. Your first paragraph here kind of a circular argument. This is a little too CR of a conversation for this thread, probably, but it matters little where the money actually comes from. AIPAC and its like largely exist because of the massive amount of agitprop that's been fed through Western media over the decades, coupled with decades of evangelical Christian ideology worming its way into mainstream politics. Of course there are some true believers, Joe Biden among them as a prime example, but there is an incredibly lopsided incentive to never question anything Israel does publicly, which isn't healthy for Israel in the long run first and foremost, and extremely unhealthy for our political system to boot. Your second paragraph is also one half of another circular argument. Literally everything you said can also be applied to the other side. You don't get to handwave away Bibi's crimes and pretend that he didn't spend years tightening the screws on a captive population, often killing and displacing thousands in the process and deliberately provoking the very kind of attack that happened as if none of the context matters, as if the same (or worse, in some cases) sickness doesn't exist within Israeli society as well, as if Israel was just minding its own business before October 7th. It's disingenuous to an almost hysterical degree. I don't know why anyone would find that offensive. Stupid, maybe, but not offensive. I say stupid because you keep insisting that a pro-Palestinian stance is inherently an anti-Israel stance when it's not, and act like "pro-Palestinian" are bad words when they're not. I'm not sure if it's just deep-seated Islamophobia, or anti-Arab racism, but it's an incredibly dumb position to take. I'm not anti-Israel. Most pro-Palestinian people, like myself, hold a very simple position: Please don't do genocide/ethnic cleansing, find a better way. It should be easy for anyone to see that preventing Holocaust 2.0 can't be done by instead doing one yourself. If you really, truly, don't want Israel to be alone in the world, you should be vociferously arguing against something like that, because if they do it, they won't have any friends left. Treating the entire situation like it's a team sport and insisting upon the path of least resistance because you can't see any other way to get the ball into the endzone isn't the way to a better world.

Except it is not an isolationist stance, that is a disingenuous reading. They're still our allies. We should still have their backs if shit really hits the fan. We should still be involved in their politics, etc. We need to be involved, only in a different way. I mean seriously, when did we become Israel's bitch? Because it sure seems like that's precisely what we are. For as powerful as we like to pretend we are, we sure do grovel at the feet of some of the worst people on Earth in the middle east (see: Bibi, MBS, etc.). Israel is the only other country on Earth that can continually commit war crimes and thumb its nose at international law with impunity, and it's literally only because they have made us their bitch by buying off our elected officials and relentlessly pushing agitprop in Western media for decades. We shouldn't be directly funding their wars, and we don't need foreign leaders coming to our soil (ironically, maybe one of the few places on Earth he's going to be able to visit without being arrested soon) to arrogantly scold Congress for the president even hinting that fewer billions may be heading their direction. Especially when that foreign leader is a right wing extremist and a corrupt criminal that's likely to end up in an Israeli prison once he loses his ministership over the country. Especially when there exists strong evidence that that foreign leader sat on actionable intelligence and allowed October 7th to happen. Especially when there exists literal mountains of evidence that that foreign leader has purposefully propped up the most extreme elements of Palestinian society (Hamas) in order to both use them as a bludgeon against Palestinians and as an excuse to crank up the pressure on their belligerent occupancy of Palestinian lands. If you stick Bibi next to Bashar al-Assad and squint, there's little difference between the two save one is backed by us, and the other is backed by Russia.

I think you're maybe misunderstanding or (less likely) purposefully misrepresenting my position. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I doubt you have actually read many of my posts on the subject. I have extended family (by marriage, I'm a basic ass white boy of boring ass Welsh ancestry) that live in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. I've gone into this before, but suffice to say it mostly consists of culturally Muslim but (mostly) non-practicing Israeli citizens with a small smattering of families that either currently live in Gaza and the West Bank, or have previously and expatriated. I can tell you with absolute certainty that the notion that the Palestinians aren't upset about the settler militias that kill them and steal their homes in the West Bank, etc. is patently false. The actions of the settler militias are, at best, gross violations of international law/convention, and at worst (and most accurately in my opinion) outright terrorism. I'm pro-Palestinian insofar as I don't want to see them exterminated or displaced by the millions, like the Jews have been. I certainly don't want Israelis to give up Israel, I think Israel can work and I want it to exist as it can be, not as it is right now with literal bloodthirsty extremists [that are little better than the animals that lead Hamas] running the country. I do not believe that Israel can work in the long term as an apartheid/ethno state. I definitely do not think a one-state solution will work, especially one dominated by either side. I'm pretty sure I've said so plenty of times, @Brisketexan and others can attest. I'm not sure where you even got that idea. Of course Palestinians largely want their country back, as much as Israelis want Gaza and the West Bank for themselves. It's only natural, that's not even a point of contention here. I believe that a working compromise is ultimately possible because I believe that the majority of Palestinians and Israelis are not actually bloodthirsty monsters that want to slaughter each other. I've had this conversation a million times. I'm well aware that there's a good chance that I'm wrong in the end, and that something horrible and irreversible happens. Still, that's my ultimate hope and I'm never going to give in to defeatism. Needless to say, I do not agree with your assertion that one side or the other has to go. I don't want that, and I will never give ground on that. When I say I consider my position to be moderate, it's moderate in contrast to the default American position, which is to support whatever Israel does without question. Countless elected officials in this country have said those exact words. I simply do not agree and I hold out hope that a better path forward can be found. Lastly, you keep saying that you aren't extolling genocide, but it's the only logical conclusion to your line of thought. You're not extolling it, but you're ok with it. There's really not much difference between those two positions, sadly. Like Ana said, I appreciate your honesty and wanted to reciprocate with my own. Hate me or love me, I don't give a shit, enjoy your evening.

Actually I think I'm just going to kill myself rather than read another dipshit tell me I should just be ok with my extended family members being killed and their homes taken in the West Bank, and that not being ok with it means I want Palestinians to exterminate Jews. Seriously, eat shit and don't come to my funeral.

Not gonna lie I'm not reading all that. I learned my lesson from the basketball board years ago. E: Ok I lied, I read it. You have no clue what you're talking about. Not sure why I subjected my brain to that bullshit. You're just going on ignore like Rex.

I don't mean killing them, just pulling them out. The settler movements in the West Bank are little better than terrorism.

Thanks ChatGPT

And again! HE FUCKIN DID IT AGAIN LMAO

That might be the single dumbest coaching decision I've seen in years what the fuck was that

Yeah usually they just kill journalists that cover their actions outright.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-al-jazeera-gaza-war-hamas-4abdb2969e39e7ad99dfbf9caa7bb32c This is always a good sign you're on the right side of history

Worse than DJU

Our elected officials absolutely have a default position of unconditional support of Israel's actions, including continuing to fund and arm them to the tune of many billions of American taxpayer dollars no matter what they do. That is not a moderate position at all when you take into account how extremely right wing the leadership of Israel is and that many of the actions they have taken in the past several decades would straight up be considered terrorism if any country that wasn't Israel (or the United States) engaged in them. A moderate position would start with cutting off the gravy train until certain conditions are met, like ceasing all attempts at the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the West Bank. Removal of the settlers, etc.

"Guys when can we stop blaming colonialism" lol

It's not even the extremes, the default position on Israel in the US is far to the right of moderate, even for a LOT of otherwise progressive people/politicians.

Oh shit I remember that guy.

The post was bloviating nonsense, a long-winded way of letting us know that he's firmly pro ethnic cleansing because "people have to pick sides". The idea that you have to either support the expulsion of all Jews from Israel or support a Jewish ethno-state is straight up bullshit. It's actually just completely baby-brained shitposting. There's a whole bunch of mental gymnastics and convenient blind spots you have to set up for yourself to be pro-Israel as it is: an ethno-apartheid state, rather than Israel as it should be: the genuine bastion of democracy they claim to be but actually aren't even close to and never have been in reality. I place myself in the latter category of being "pro-Israel". I firmly believe it should and can exist as a true haven for both Palestinians and Israelis. It also isn't helpful to pretend they just hate each other and that's that. Palestinians, for the most part, learn to hate Israelis. Israelis, for the most part, are taught to hate Palestinians. It is a subtle but profound difference. It's a plain and simple lie that they hate each other because of each other's immutable characteristics.

This might be the most astonishingly stupid post I've ever read on Surly, and I've read a fair amount of Rex's posts.

What do you think per capita means, dipshit?

This dude interestingly comes up with the same lies about his background and family that Chrispy did, and talks in the exact same way.

I'd bet my entire net worth you're lying about almost everything to do with your family.

Yeah I know I was making a tasteless joke.

Wanting to kill UN workers is a pretty baseline Zionist take if we're being real 😉