BrickHorn

UNICEF is reporting that 700+ Palestinian children were killed this week in Gaza. Our whole species fucking sucks.

The one that spooked me was Abdullah the Butcher. He’d come out in a black veil, which his “handler” Gary Hart would remove very cautiously. Then of course, he’d proceed to beat and mangle his opponent while gazing blankly off into the distance.

The only point I might clarify is that I remain sympathetic to Israel as victims of this horrific mass murder. And I also fear for the safety of my Jewish friends. This shit is going to be tense and scary for a while, I’m afraid.

Jack White, Prince, and Joni Mitchell ahead of Clapton and Chet Atkins? Clickbait, indeed. Total garbage list by hipster music writers who have never played the instrument.

I don’t think anyone questions whether Israel should retaliate. The issue is what that retaliation should be, and at whom it should be targeted. Specifically, in response to a mass murder by the armed wing of a terrorist organization, should Israel carpet bomb a zone with 2.3 million inhabitants and force a million people out of their homes? I’m not arguing that any of us have an alternative proposal at hand. But it’s reasonable to pause and consider whether full-scale bombing and invasion is just or likely to result in a better future for anyone in the region.

The same idiots support Israel while spreading antisemitic conspiracies using code words like “globalists,” “bankers,” and “Soros.”

That’s a bullshit response. It ignores the long history of stories almost identical to these proving to be atrocity propaganda and the reasons WHY exactly these stories become that (it’s the same reason why these stories spread like wildfire this week - they grab attention). And it ignores the actual conversation about this topic on this thread. You’re all over the map. I’m done with this whipsaw of a debate. My last comment on it will be a summary of where I stand more broadly on this week’s events: - Hamas’s attack was mass murder, full stop. Something must be done to bring justice to those responsible and prevent such atrocities in the future. What that something is I have no clue. - I am deeply saddened for what I expect will result from the response, which is further bloodshed and further entrenchment of the hatred and distrust between Israelis and Palestinians, which will inevitably prolong the cycle of violence. - The infosphere is currently full of propaganda. I haven’t done a survey, but my general sense is the bulk of the propaganda circulating at this point is pro-Hamas, in the form of videos of different incidents being falsely attributed to the Israeli bombings. - The stories of Hamas beheading infants and engaging in rape are of a genre that frequently proves to be atrocity propaganda. This is not necessarily purposeful propaganda. It often results from inadvertent exaggeration and is spread by rumor. It is unclear whether these claims are true in this case and, based on the history of similar claims, we won’t know until the dust settles. That mass media outlets have reported these stories does not resolve the matter; atrocity propaganda often propagates through credible media. - The truth or falsity of the stories has no bearing on how I view the Hamas attack, but claims of this sort inflame emotions and often serve to make matters worse. And at times like these, we need more humanity and empathy, not less. Unfortunately, that’s not how mankind works.

What the fuck? Try to be consistent, for Christ’s sake. You’re too worldly to be unfamiliar with atrocity propaganda, how it works, and why it is problematic even when seemingly only a slight exaggeration of actual (but because of weird human nature, more banal) atrocities. And you admit that “information sanitation” is good practice. But you jump very quickly to paint such cautious reactions as disguised propaganda in their own right, which is flat-out false. There is no one-sidedness present to the questioning of propaganda on this board. The fake news streaming out from the Hamas side has been vociferously and rightly called out as BS, definitively. No one has said anything so definitive about the potential Israeli propaganda because (1) it’s not as clear that it actually IS propaganda and (2) if the claims ARE inaccurate, unlike the Hamas videos, etc., they are far more likely to be inadvertent and a result of a game of telephone played in the fog of war. So no. Unlike my agreement with those who have called bullshit on numerous videos claiming wrongly to show civilian Palestinian casualties, I’m not going to jump to say that the mass rape and baby beheading claims are definitely 100% BS. Because they may not be, and we probably won’t know for sure for a long time. So… how again is that one-sided against Israel?

That’s a pretty naive view of how this works. “Credible news sources” often spread propaganda, even if unwittingly. Shit gets sorted out eventually, but it takes time.

He’s welcome to do so.

What I’ve seen from the news today are conflicting reports. Which is completely unsurprising. What I will acknowledge is that it appears completely unambiguous that Hamas murdered hundreds of innocent civilians, including women and children. And that is more than sufficient for me to condemn them as an organization and to hope for retribution.

I negged him because it’s ludicrous to insinuate that anyone is letting this drag out “indefinitely” when the events happened, what, 3 days ago? That’s not a serious criticism at this time.

You’re too generous. Unless Hamas is tweeting about atrocity propaganda, 956 is clearly talking about those of us on these threads who have pointed out that it’s a well documented phenomenon and thus people should consider withholding judgment on sensational details until the dust settles a bit.

That’s not at all how I read his body of work on the Israel threads. And as G650 implied above, category (2) is a null set on Surly as far as I can tell.

You can fuck right off with your bullshit insinuations. Being cautious in the immediate aftermath to not immediately accept as fact stories that mirror well-worn atrocity propaganda doesn’t indicate any agenda other than restraint. Hamas killed hundreds of innocent people including women and children and that’s a heinous crime.

Because, as strange as it is, that detail has real impact. The mechanics of exactly how a baby is murdered for some reason matter to us. It’s weird and illogical and we can all sit here and say it shouldn’t matter. But it does. For whatever reason, certain murder mechanics elevate our outrage. And that’s why these stories are so common in the fog of war and why they proliferate. “They beheaded babies” or “They speared babies with bayonets” inspires far more disgust and hatred than “They shot babies.” And in these kinds of situations, people cling to the worst. They want to be angry. They want the world to be binary. It’s in some ways a relief to know that the people their side is about to murder en masse are more animal than human. The point is: people should be cautious about these reports, especially early in a conflict. They may turn out to be true, but too often the exact same stories have proven false and have had negative consequences, including increased skepticism to verified atrocities.

It’s like no one on DT has ever heard of a war before.

PSA: old episodes from the territories are available to stream on Peacock.

Same here. I still remember Hacksaw giving the One Man Gang a forearm to the chest, causing the Gang to spit a baseball sized loogie into the crowd. Over the years, we also saw Ric Flair, Lex Luger, the Road Warriors, Kamala, the Midnight Express with Jim Cornette, the Fantastics, Larry Zbysko, Skandor Akbar, and many many more. We also saw Hogan beat Mr Perfect, but WWF was cartoonish nonsense compared to UWF, WCCW, and NWA. The great thing was that tickets to the Bosch promotion shows were dirt cheap, so we’d always get seats on the floor a couple rows back from the ring. At home, I would watch GLOW on Friday night, then WWF, UWF, and WCCW on Saturday morning, followed by Kung Fu Theater on Channel 39. Damn. I really wasted my youth. My wife grew up in Dallas and went to the matches at the Sportatorium with some friends in high school. And if any of y’all haven’t watched Wrestlers on Netflix, I highly recommend it.

Take that commie bullshit back to Russia. The Free Market will fix this problem, as it fixes ALL problems! Over time, consumers will adjust and choose airports that have relatively fewer avoidable mass casualty events.

And those are the only two ways civilians could die in this war. Case closed!

I don’t deny at all that Jewish people seem uniquely subject to racist hatred, conspiratorial lies, etc. But they are not remotely the only persecuted group who have suffered genocide only to be victim blamed. That’s kind of a hallmark of persecution and genocide: the perpetrators rarely come out and say “This one’s on us, guys!” (Although in the case of the Holocaust, the successor state to the Nazi regime has gone out of its way to prevent attempts to deny the genocide.) And while I don’t doubt that some portion of Palestinians deny the Holocaust, is that really a significant motivating factor in their beef with Israel? Is Hamas lashing out to defend Hitler’s historical reputation? Seems like they have much more immediate and local disputes to drive hostility.

Dude, you are much too knowledgeable of history and world affairs to forget the Ukrainians and Armenians. And really, is there any such thing as a genocide that isn’t denied by some group (typically the perpetrators and their successor states)?