Posts posted by TXSooner518
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Just now, Poe It Up said:
At home? Of course, and they don’t mention it. I think you guys really overestimate how much kids talk about marriage.
We had wedding ceremonies on the playground in 1st grade. And so you do acknowledge that there is nothing at all odd about kids being exposed to the concept of marriage at that age. However, you have expressed opposition to them being exposed to the concept of "gay marriage" at this age. So your previously-stated position of "I don't think teachers should discuss relationships or marriage at all" is really a pretext so you don't have to admit the bigotry of you're totally fine with hetero marriage but not gay marriage.
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2 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:
Oh my god, your hypothetical backed me into a corner and I have nowhere to go. What do I do? Good lord, where is the teacher in this scenario again?
Total side note, but I do remember the first time my kids saw a black child. They sat wide eyed for a second or two and then played with them, it’s just a different situation all together.
It's not different at all. If your kids were told "some boys like girls and some boys like boys and some boys like both and sometimes when people like each other a lot they get married" they would sit and then nod and say cool and go on doing what they are doing and now magically wouldn't be confused whenever they actually encounter same-sex relationships!
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9 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:
That was in the context of why the issue never is brought up with my children. We simply don’t interact with openly gay individuals.
So if you lived in an all-white neighborhood, your kids wouldn't know that racism is bad and that Blacks should be treated just like anyone else?
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3 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:
It’s not the teacher’s role, it’s the counselor’s role. You know, where these more delicate issues are discuss in private. I don’t think you have the foggiest idea of how the school system works actually.
Delicate issues like *checks notes* I attended my dad's wedding last weekend. JFC.
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Edited by TXSooner518
20 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:You’ll have to forgive me, as I’m being slammed with many hypotheticals at the moment. It’s very difficult to have a coherent conversation with 10 people at the same time. Obviously, name calling is inappropriate. Would you explain what a mother fucker is? Of course not. This is common sense my man.
But, I mean, saying "faggot" is inappropriate is really making a value judgment related to sexual orientation, isn't it? What if that kid's parents think calling gay people "faggots" is appropriate, really not up to the teacher to regulate those values, right? What if instead of calling another kid that, a kid says "I don't like that show, it's for faggots." OK for teacher to say that word is inappropriate or no?
OK I'll give you a list I'd love your answers on:
In the question about Lisa going to her dad's wedding, don't you think Lisa might be upset that the teacher engaged with all the other students but not hers? Maybe there was something wrong with what she said, or the teacher doesn't like Lisa? Putting those things on the table to torturously remove any reference to human relationships is so beyond absurd.
Can a teacher read a book or show a movie with married characters or that depicts a wedding to 3rd graders?
Can I get a list of other topics that should be literally forbidden for teachers to engage in discussions in addition to "human relationships" and "marriage"?
Isn't this hysterical opposition to any discussion on any issue at all that a parent may not be 100% in agreement with exactly what home-school is for?
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Just now, Poe It Up said:
No, more like “that’s great Lisa, ok class now remember to color inside the lines.”
So the teacher can engage on all topics except for a wedding for "reasons"? Can't ask her what the best part was, etc.? You are drawing these ridiculous artificial lines all to defend a reprehensible political action while pretending you are standing on the side of eradicating this nonexistent problem of deep sexuality discussions.
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3 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:
I had no idea homosexual was offensive, actually. I’ll remember that. I have no interest in persecuting anyone. My only wish is that a teacher stay out of that arena, which seems fairly reasonable.
If a teacher hears a kid call another kid a faggot should they step in and say that's wrong to do, or do they need to stay out of that arena? How about my previous example where a kid says they have two moms and another says "that's weird!" should the teacher briefly explain that's common and not weird or just tough tits there, can't enter the arena? Why'd you ignore my question about reading a book with married characters to 3rd graders, OK or not?
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2 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:
It’s not weird if it gets mentioned, it’s just weird if the teacher engages in the discussion.
I see so it's not weird if it goes:
TIMMY: I went to Six Flags
TEACHER: Cool Timmy, what did you ride?
TIMMY: *answers*
AUDREY: I went camping
TEACHER: Great Audrey, what was the best part?
AUDREY: *answers*
LISA: I went to my dad's wedding
TEACHER: *changes subject*
Or would you prefer "Lisa, can you define the natal sex of your father's new spouse so I can decide if it's "really weird" if I engage here?"
It's absolutely PREPOSTEROUS that anyone thinks this is the way it should work.
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1 minute ago, Poe It Up said:
Forgive my tautology here, but you’ll have to explain the teachers need to discuss marriage with my kindergartner.
SO you think it should be illegal to read a book or show a film to third graders that features a wedding or people described as married? If yes, then FUCKING LOL at you. If no, you are showing that you are being willfully stupid for the point of helping to assist your tribe kill a few more LGBTQ kids. Be proud.
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9 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:
Why would a teacher talk about marriage with my 6 year old? You guys are really weird.
Never ending factory of people spouting disingenous bullshit. At 6, we were having marriage ceremonies on the playground. My daughter was a 3rd grader when she attended my second wedding, it's "really weird" if it got mentioned in class she was going to her dad's wedding? Of course it isn't fucking weird, you guys just love to play the ignorant hey what who me "hey why do we wanna talk to kids about sexuality amirite?" horseshit card. Guess the fuck what, it still wouldn't have been fucking weird if that marriage was to a man instead of a woman. The fact that you think it's weird is just truly mindfucked, let alone the idea of thinking it's not only weird but harmful, AND not only harmful but so harmful we must make it illegal.
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7 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:
Where did I say none? I said it’s not likely and it’s not.
So you think it's less than 50% that in a class of 25 that any of the kids, kids' parents, kids' siblings, or the teacher are gay AND also that it never comes up such as "so what did everyone do this weekend?" "my uncle married his new husband" etc.? If so, your understanding of statistitcs is piss poor.
Also see my above post to IV about the overall impact of laws like this on overall acceptance/mental health/etc.
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12 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:
Less than 5% of the population is gay, so it’s just not likely to come up. If it somehow does, you simply tell them to ask their parents and redirect, which is very easy at that age. Telling them about homosexual marriage is really bizarre, and frankly inappropriate.
So you think 1 in 20 people being gay makes it very likely that none of the kids, parents, or teacher in a class of 25 kids are impacted. Do you math this hard all the time or only when trying to continue to ostracize portions of the population?
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1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:
The point of a school library isn’t to have every book ever available. The community through its leadership decides which books to make available. School libraries add and remove books all the time.
But they don't say "this book is not allowed to be here" all the time. That's the difference. Not every library has every book, but a librarian in that school district is not allowed, or PROHIBITED, from having that book available. It's really not a hard concept at all.
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I'm gonna have to push back a little bit. Maybe we should pass a "Don't say vegetarian" law. Look, what those people do in the privacy of their own kitchen is their business, but I don't need them flaunting it at dinner when I order a steak.
Yeah if someone said I had to live the rest of my life gay or vegetarian, I would have to go into the tank for quite a while. -
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For one you are wrong that it’s almost zero.
For two, you are ignoring kids who are being raised by LGBTQ families.
For three, even if a kid doesn’t know they are gay by 3rd grade, when they do know, the environment will be much healthier for them if “gay people exist” is as normal as “redheads exist”, “black people exist”, “vegetarians exist” instead of something so apparently shameful that laws must be passed to avoid discussing it.
For four, tons of examples have been given in this thread that you ignore. In first grade, we held marriage ceremonies on the playground. Kids are aware relationships exist. This shouldn’t be controversial.
For five, if fighting over this is stupid the blame is wholly on DeSantis and Florida Republicans. -
42 minutes ago, workswithseed said:
They didn't know about it, so that doesn't help with this.
The state can just keep secrets if they think things might happen. Seems not vague at all.
What is the list of things you think the state, through public schools, should be mandated to dislcose to parents? What if they see Mary Lou holding hands with Stevie? Must disclose? What if instead she's holding hands with Tammi Jo? What if a teacher is in a bathroom and hears a kid say she heard Mary Lou blew Stevie? Obligation to call Mary Lou's parents? Stevie's?
What if the student in your article specifically told the counselor that her parents hate gay people and she feels worthless because she thinks she is gay?
Ludicrous how you are framing this. Truly ludicrous.
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29 minutes ago, workswithseed said:
https://meaww.com/florida-teen-gender-crisis-hang-herself-twice-parents-slam-school-negligence
Because teachers know, and try to keep it secret. Also the suicide attempts.
Like Sawbonz said, the language used, the "devout Catholic", and the part about the kid not wanting the parents to know. I dunno what to tell you if you feel like involving these parents would have prevented this suicide. I can promise that in many cases, involving the parents is going to dramatically increase the chances of suicide.
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38 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:
Wait, how are we killing gay and trans kids with this bill again? By not discussing sexuality or gender in early elementary? Hyperbolic even for you.
The tens of thousands of small children in Florida that are emotionally mature enough to confidently and definitively declare they are gay or trans are miserable and/or despairing because Mrs Krabapple glossed over an obvious opportunity to fully delve into sexuality and gender differences? I just don’t see it. Like you don’t think it should be a big deal. We’re just too far apart on this one I think.
Most of those kids are not confidently and definitively anything, and often are wondering if what they feel is OK, or if something is wrong with them. Often their parents are implying that there is in fact something wrong with them.
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27 minutes ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:Once again. If a kid talks about their mom and dad, no one will think twice. Do you think otherwise? But if a kid mentions their mom and other mom and any questions or comments arise, you're square in the target zone of this law. It's about setting heteronormative people as the default, the "normal" ones, for whom talking about their family is acceptable, and sending the message that anyone not within the norm creates a "sexuality" discussion that can't be had. It's purposely vague and purposely insidious.
This is such a critical thing. It isn't that Ms. Krabappel didn't specifically tell Susie about transgender. It's the overarching effort to make some kids normal and others "others" and it's really tough to measure that impact. Imagine again the standard "talk about your family vacation and draw a scene" elementary assignment. Jimmy talks about his moms. Teresa says "you have two moms? that's weird!" Ideally, the teacher can say something like "Actually, lots of kids have two moms, some moms like other girls, and some like boys, so it's really not weird." Here to avoid getting sued or fired, the teacher does what exactly? Just silently moves on, and Jimmy internalizes how he's weird and his family is weird and why can't they just be normal. It's overwhelming the cruelty that is inherent in shit like this that just gets glossed over.
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3 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:
So could there be a compromise that someone qualified, such as the counselor handle it? I know there are good teachers out there, great ones, but there are also ones that aren’t qualified for this, imo.
I’m not certain I agree. I’m know for sure I’ve met gay folks (that weren't advertising it) throughout my life. But it was post college before I ever had any actual interaction. I don’t hate, or fear, then. There just weren’t many in my circles. Of those few I did meet, all were women. 99.99% of the interactions I’ve had with trans folks have been 2 people, on this website. I think very highly of one of them. Like it or not, there’s much more explanation with sexuality/gender/sex than there is pigment and your genealogical relation to the equator. I’m an educated person and I’m still working on learning all the pronouns (the extra 20 that exploded recently) as to not accidentally offend people on this site. My kids are smart. They are considerably smarter than I was at their age, but I know the younger ones aren't ready for this. I hope they learn properly. Not like many in our generation did, where we had to do some back tracking on it to get it right. But I’m not certain that’s supposed to happen under 9-10yo. Especially by someone who’s got 1/4 the amount of education of their parents.
As to the first part, not according to the Repubs who pushed this bill. They also pushed for a law that if the kid talks to anyone at school about gender issues, including a counselor, that person would face criminal charges if they didn't notify parents. That got removed, for now, but that's the mentality we are dealing with.
For the second part, again we aren't talking about a kindergarten test being "1. Which is a triangle? 2. Which is red? 3. Compare and contrast pansexuality and bisexuality." No one is saying make sure every kindergartener gets all the terms and pronouns. All we are saying is that "some boys like boys and some like girls and some like both" is not a super confusing concept. I wouldn't put it on the lesson plan in a kindergarten class. If it comes up though, it comes up. A book shouldn't be illegal b/c it has a gay character.
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24 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:No I’m completely against it, and absolutely believe it’s a stunt. At the same time, I don’t want the subject breached with my 4yo. I saw your examples upthread you asked sack about. I don’t have any problems with those, outside maybe the same sex book, because I know my 4yo doesn’t understand that yet. 10 yo kids, I don’t have much issue with any of it. I think the 4-7 age this “law” speaks to, these subjects should be sent to the house. That doesn’t mean people hate alphabet kids, or adults. It means the VAST majority of 4 yos don’t know what it all means.
The VAST majority of 4 yos if they hear "some boys like girls and some boys like boys and when people really like each other sometimes they get married" will shrug and think "OK sure cool whatever." It's the parents' projections, biases, and fears that are the issue.
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6 minutes ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:
they are intentionally conflating "sex"/gender/orientation with teaching sexuality. The fact of a person's identity doesn't include specific sexual information but they rely on the rubes to be unable to think that logically.
Exactly this. "Gay people exist and are mentioned" is presented to the rubes as "weirdo perverts want to talk to kindergarteners about sex, why???"
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Desantis is a POS and needs his own thread
in Cloak Room
Oh, and also Six Flags, or camping trips, all that is cool too as you agreed earlier.
Also this book is no good, it features married characters, too confusing for kids! Not to mention "As he returns with the dogs, he sees a heart carved on a tree with the names "Dan + Ann" " OH MY DEAR GOD HOW CAN THIS BE EXPLAINED TO CHILDREN?????
The sick and truly truly sad part is that you would be totally fine with this book unless the above was "Dan + Dave" and then you would be pushing to ban it right along with the other banned books.