DonkeyCigars

Man that sucks: I hope everything works out for your dad.

Well, a wiser fellow than myself once said. Sometimes you eat the bar. Sometimes the bar, well, it eats you.

I agree-- the internet and social media as created an irreparable state in America. We all live amongst each other but more or less dislike each other.

I appreciate your response. It's so well addressed that I am not sure I have a response that would add to the discussion except to say that while you are accurate about science being based on science, the world we live in today is not one where we trust the best and brightest minds are scientists and doctors and that they aren't compromised in interests (personal, corporate or otherwise). At the end of the day "Science" is a discipline and the "Scientific Method" is just a process. The application of the Scientific Method and execution of Science is done by people. People who are at times a myriad of both great character, but also imperfect flaws (e.g. biases, agenda-driven, liars, incompetent, selfish, etc.). I'm sure most of the time people in government and science are operating at a higher moral ideal and level (well, maybe not the government. See: Every politician stereotype and joke ever). But the fact that these things-- vaccines, studies, applications of science, government orders-- are delivered by imperfect people means that there will always be a seat at the table for skepticism and personal freedom to choose skepticism, whatever that means to you. And sometimes what that means to you is different than what it means to Phil from the office. I guess I lied, I did have a response.

If I were to synthesis your post here, I think you are appealing to the idea that Americans were more communal and less selfish and that was shown by trusting in the government more and doing as they were instructed by experts and the government, right? I read an interesting stat: "Do you trust the federal government? When voters were asked that question in December, 1958, by pollsters from a center now called the American National Election Studies, at the University of Michigan, seventy-three per cent said yes, they had confidence in the government to do the right thing either almost all the time or most of the time. Six years later, they were asked basically the same question, and seventy-seven per cent said yes. Pollsters ask the question regularly. In a Pew survey from April, 2021, only twenty-four per cent of respondents said yes. And that represented an uptick. During Obama’s and Trump’s Presidencies, the figure was sometimes as low as seventeen per cent. Sixty years ago, an overwhelming majority of Americans said they had faith in the government. Today, an overwhelming majority say they don’t." This is from a fine article discussing two books which come at the problem from two different directions (one blames conservatives and one blames liberals; both are researched scholarship, not punditry)-- I encourage you to read it: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/08/16/are-liberals-to-blame-for-our-crisis-of-faith-in-government What jumped out at me was this and especially the bold: Social scientists often lament the diminishment of trust, both political and social—that is, our trust in other people, which has also declined. And it is probably true that high levels of trust enable governments to get more done. But, as Fried and Harris acknowledge, lack of trust does not correlate with apathy. The contrary may be the case. If you trust government to do the right thing most of the time, you may feel that you can check out. Often, lack of trust in the government is an incentive to act. The antiwar protesters in the Vietnam period were politically energized. So were the insurrectionists of January 6th. Both manifested high levels of distrust. Neither “Public Citizens” nor “At War with Government” is explicit about what voters actually mean when they are asked about trust. For example, how would the authors answer the trust question themselves? Highly educated people count skepticism a virtue. They typically would not report that they trust government, or any social institution, “most of the time.” What seems to make educated people uncomfortable, though, is the idea that the mass public shares this skepticism. But mass publics, too, are trained to be skeptical. Consumer economies make them that way. Commercials sell products by encouraging consumers to be skeptical of the claims of competing products. Many incorporate a wink of knowingness—“You get it that we are just trying to sell something here.” Unquestioned trust seems unthinking, naïve. Does anyone trust Facebook? You’re not supposed to trust corporate entities. So people say they don’t.

I believe there are opt-outs for this, right? And there are private school options.

This. We have learned to go along to get along and, even when the corporate messaging is counter to our personal beliefs (e.g. my JPMC IB friends call Jaime Dimon, Jaime Biden, or for all those who live in The Woodlands or Frisco but work for big tech HQ'ed in SF/SJ to grossly generalize for illustrative purposes), we just keep conversations superficial because it's smart business. But I'd also challenge that if your explanation starts and stops at "you disagree so you are an idiot and your understanding of reality is wrong", then you are guilty of the exact same thing you are accusing. What makes your perspective and perception the correct one? Have you considered you may be engaging in the "lesser mind" problem or fallacy? (The lesser minds problem takes three primary forms: that others have less mental experience than we do ourselves, that others' inner mental experience is less causally important to behavior than our own, and that others' inner mental experience is a less accurate reflection of reality than our own. Here is a paper on it from Northwestern: https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.705.9284&rep=rep1&type=pdf#:~:text=The lesser minds problem takes,of reality than our own)

No, I'm good with mandates to do something. What I am not okay with was the mental masturbation about forcing people to get a vaccination and then going full hunger games.

Yea, this is better. I think clever policy is making it hard, maybe even making it all but impossible except in name only, to comfortably and conveniently exist without succumbing to getting vaccinated. "You don't have to get vaccinated, I'm not saying that, but what I am saying is if you want to use the Metro or take an Uber or go to a Grocery store or travel on an airplane, you have to be vaccinated". Essentially you call their bluff to stay in their homes and order Whole Foods groceries and Door Dash and I will bet they crack. Or they lie and say they are vaccinated (e.g. lie and say they didn't vote for Trump) just to get along conveniently in a society that disagrees and makes it difficult for them.

Okay, I will, and will report back.

I mean, you realize that you don't have to ingest enriched flour? You can eat gluten free crap or whatever, right? I just think that if your argument is "why stop at vaccines" you should give analogs that are similar-- forcing something into someone's body against their will. The closest I can think of is when you get a judge order to shoot up a mentally ill patient who is a harm to themselves or whatever. Are we seriously saying, not just being exclamatory, but honestly saying that we think potentially 100mm people who don't want to get vaccines should be court-ordered and forced because they have been dangerously divorced from reality (aka mentally ill)?

When you are talking about putting something inside your body-- chemicals, drugs, gene therapy, vaccines, whatever-- it IS personal. You force people to start ingesting things that the government and/or scientists are creating (in good faith, I believe, and with the best knowledge and tools they have at their disposal which is inherently limited and imperfect), then you are creating a very slippery slope that is dangerous if you have a very independent streak. Again, I'm fully vaxxed and think to not be is foolish, but I (and tens if not hundreds of millions of others) have a hard time justifying forcing someone to ingest a vaccine against their will.

The crazy thing is when pressed, I get a lot of “I don’t like talking about it because you never know where people stand on it and it’s a personal thing that everyone has different beliefs on”, which I actually respect. I’m just surprised at white shoes and white collar firms that a lot of rogue/politically incorrect thinking is rampant and if I’m being honest, hearing counterpoints from folks who are very smart, highly degreed, good at their job/successful, and who can cogently speak like an intellectual being makes the arguments more compelling and “real” than the mouth breathers, anti-vax morons we usually encounter online and in YouTube videos. I can see how peer groups and family members can fall victim to that justification.

Good luck on your souvenir t-shirt!

Just wait; there will be a reversal or some sort of change coming I’m sure. I work for a large company and invariably there is a diverse mix of employees (we pride ourselves on our DEI as well). We’ve recently made mandate vaccines and so for the case team I’ve been on the past 6 months, to continue being onsite with the client we have to be vaccinated. What that looks like is that 40% of the case team has to dial in remote now and can’t travel— which is crazy because I never would have thought it was so high (and from a diverse range of geo— TX, WA, OH, and VA). We all talk frankly on here and give each other a hard time, but what I’ve found is that people are quiet about things like this IRL— especially if you work for a big organization and want to stay off the radar.

Remember the MTV video of Around the World? That was a good song.

What benefit does pretending to be Queen of America and describing all the things you would do (which would never be reality) if you had authoritarian power actually do for you? Is it cathartic or otherwise therapeutic? If so, by all means continue the fan-fic, because I’m all about self-care and mental health.

I agree, but I think any criticism of Biden and his policies is an auto-neg around here these days, but what the heck, I’ll kick it off: the $1T infra plan is good politics, helps all people and has good, broad appeal and support. Great job! The $3.5T plan is the opposite (IMO) and I’m really curious to see if the Dems can pass it through straight party lines or if some of the more centrist Dems will be a thorn in the side.

Just watched My Octopus Teacher. It was really weird. I felt like I was second-hand watching a guy have a spiritual experience and the camera work, videos and photos were really really great. But man, I have to be honest, the sexual tension was more real than that horrible movie The Shape of Water. Very weird watching a guy fall in love with what is probably the closest thing to an alien that we have on earth.

Serious question so I can get a better handle of what's going on; are you drunk?

No worries, just catching up on the thread and thought I might have missed the point or it swooshed over my head (as points want to do) as you are generally a pretty solid guy.

Yea, I think that is what has set a record, people leaving but also the renouncement of citizenship. Crazy.

I read recently that relocating abroad is setting record numbers due to avoidance of taxes. I could see a situation where my wife and I could retire abroad and live like kings, but things would have to be really bad domestically. That's a big jump.

Yea, that in bold is crazy. You won't get any argument from me there. I guess the difference in going to a private versus public is that you are beholden to the prohibitions of the governor due to funding or money or something? I ask because I know for 100% certain that our private school not only mandated masks and social distancing (and desks 6 feet apart), but also were very proactive in reporting news of positive cases instantly and mandating 2 week quarantines.

Agreed. That is the ideal case and like with planting a tree, the second best time to get the vax is today if you haven't already. I was specifically speaking about the reality we find ourselves in now and in the next two weeks. The ship has sailed to rescue of the dilemma I was speaking of, unless you have a quantum portal like Ant man. Wait a minute...user name checks out.