HamsterHookah

I'd like to hear more. I, too, have found it to be lacking which is why (and in answer to Patricio's question of if I voted for Abbott) I mentioned that I struggle with wanting to abstain and feeling more and more called to just separate myself from the madness that is politics since 2018 (or maybe ever, and I just awoke to it in 2018), but have yet not. I try to be as apolitical as possible in my personal, home, family, work and church life. Anyways I'd love to hear your take on this in all seriousness.

First I want to say thank you for engaging in a way that is not clearly just an excuse to hear yourself talk. I mean that and not condescendingly. This is an interesting take because it seems the same people who have a problem with this statement don't seem to have a problem with eschewing nuance and context "all cops are bastards" or "all republican voters are nazi's". I agree. A quote I like and often think about is "Obedience is a long walk in the same direction". Some days you might only take a step. Heck some days you might take two backwards, but as long as you can make up the ground and move forward, as staggering as it may be... Whatever the bible affirms is true; is true. Whatever the bible affirms is false; is false. This is what I mean by the bible being inerrant. Feel free to disagree, but that's what I believe. This is where we will fundamentally break and disagree with one other. I believe your distilling the word down to a single "be nice to people" is a reduction and sophomoric. Just like I believe the people who say "God is Love" and I love XYZ, so that means it's okay", is sophomoric and reductive. As to the commandment, you can't love your neighbor if you don't love God first. So the order of operations makes sense. But what does it mean to love everyone else? You can get into the different greek versions of the word love and as you know with a Christian wife who has studied the word, there are 4 different types of love mentioned (agape, storage, philia, eros). Loving your neighbor (at least, loving them well) doesn't mean to agree with everything they do, especially in sin. It doesn't mean to just agree to whatever because it makes them feel good--- sometimes the best way to love people is the hardest by calling out what they are doing or who they are becoming is harmful or will lead in death (physical or spiritual). These are my opinions and beliefs, at least, and I don't represent these for any other Christian just myself.

In both an effort to steer the thread back on track and in my selfish interest, because I struggle with this and respect you and your faith, what is your take on the question of obligation or duty to vote versus abstaining, as a Christian? Be in the world but not of it, and give to Caesar what is Caesar's, is what I try to come down on as a way to wash my hands of anything politically, but is there a proactive calling, in your opinion, that forces one to engage politically? As you can imagine there are hundreds of pro and con essays for both sides on this topic via a google search...

I addressed this in post #48 Edit to copy and paste it for you since you evidently missed it: "Surprise surprise that religions and religious institutions are wicked and full of sin (because they are made up of people who are preternaturally so). So even in religion and religious institutions you see a spectrum: far right theocrats and extremists to the far left loons of women preachers with rainbow pride robes, and everything in between. Get in where you fit in and worry about the plank in your own eye first, is my motto. I care less about what drag shows are going on in society than I do with what I'm doing to lead my kids and family in the home. If I do my job correctly, God willing, the rest will work itself out. Though of course that's not necessarily a guarantee, God's will be done, and proverbs are principles and not promises... But that leads to the best life lesson for the short sojourn we have on this planet until we go to our real home: we are in control of nothing really, so just do what you think is best, in the present, one day at a time. And love those who you disagree with. Maybe even more than you do those who make it easy to love. I love you all, especially you usual suspects." I more or less agree that "Christians" are a blight and a thorn in the side of a real Christian trying to be in the world but not of it. At best, they believe in Jesus and have just been deceived and need sheepherding, at worst they have co-opted and perverted what it means to be a Christian and follower of Christ. But to be fair, all of us self-identifying believers have, because we all fall short and what it means to be righteous and holy is so overwhelmingly complex and layered that no man can accomplish it fully, and finally. Which is why we needed a savior in the first place (In my Christian opinion). Reducing Christianity down to "just be nice to people and don't be a dick" is a sophomoric take on a very serious and real call to walk with Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit, if you believe the bible to be inerrant. This is why most people I know who take being a Christian seriously are a) in their bible constantly because it's a living and breathing work that seemingly changes every time you read it; the same verse can come alive in a different way as if your eyes to see have changed and b) wrestle with the seeming contradictions and paradoxes, but beauty and truth, that is as complex and difficult as it is simple and easy. What makes the topic difficult for me is that I have had a psychic change due to being called and having my name written in the book of lambs, and because of that I know how wicked and sinful my innate state is-- as we all are. So when people profess with their tongues to be believers it's difficult to suss out the ones who are grifting from the ones deceived; only God knows the faith and character of another man's heart. Though we can judge by the fruits, as well, which I think is a part of our gaining wisdom and discernment. All this to say, I agree the weaponization of Christianity and the overly political ambitions is bad and not good for anyone except those with the political ambitions. But also, historically Christianity perverts and wallows in sin when comfortable and thrives when marginalized and is not as accepted-- socially, politically, etc.-- so maybe this reflexive move to lump all Christians as hateful and cruel will ironically help.

Actually it's quite beautiful, in the harmonized and elegant way in which that word means. Beautifully stated and supported

Thanks for saying your piece, you can yield back your time here and go back to the other thread about pedos-in-the-church and make sure everyone hears the same message, over and over.

This thread reminds me of a story I once read where the R&B singer Usher (or Urshur, as he is known in the community), created his own Usher bucks and would use them to tip and make it rain in strip clubs, the utter dismay of literally everyone and especially the hired dancers. Hilarious and petty and overall stupid. edit to add link: https://thesource.com/2021/04/13/usher-flamed-on-internet-for-allegedly-throwing-fake-ush-bucks-at-strip-club/

The other thing about truth is, it's true whether you believe it to be or not.

The first: I was meeting your level of effort, for my own sake and sanity. The second: You are winning me over, again, DD.

FWIW, it's called complementarianism and it's something my wife and I believe and adhere in, in our family: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complementarianism Complementarianism in Christianity:

God is good. OU sucks.

Since Briskettexan has entered the chat, let me cut him off at the pass so we don't get the same message regurgitated in 5 different ways; for the vast amount of American performative Christians, cruelty is the point. I said it BT, so you don't have to. Please. Give us something more original and authentic. I feel like Brendan Fraser at the end of The Whale when he desperately asks his online writing students to just please write something new and different and authentic.

Which, again, raises the point that a lot of America's stated laws are based on a theist creator God, to begin with. So do we have a fundamental problem with that and do we blow the whole thing up and start over by anchoring on something else? And what else is that? In my view, the beauty of things being true is that they are timelessly, always true. If you want to build your house on the shifting sands of culture and moral relativism, then your house will likely not stand, if you get my drift.

No, because this isn't a 9th grade google classroom chat room and we are no longer thrilled by the pithy superficiality of the generic platitude.

And this is exactly where politics dares intervene. The intersection between what is and ought and what is utilitarian to hold a society together to function. And even in politics and law we see vestigial Christian/Theist foundations when you read things like "All men are created equal" (a creator/God reference) and men are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights" which point to both God/Theism foundations AND a higher law that governs man's law.

Let's take this offline to another thread, but I read a very interesting article this week about a) the rise of consciousness in people/mammals and b) the distinction between perception and sensation that comes from being conscious. (Scottish philosopher Thomas Reid, between perception and sensation. Perception, Reid wrote, registers information about objects in the external world; sensation is the subjective feeling that accompanies perceptions. Because we encounter sensations and perceptions simultaneously, we conflate them. But there’s a difference between perceiving the shape and position of a rose or an ice cube and experiencing redness or coldness.) Here is the article: https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/nicholas-humphreys-beautiful-theory-of-mind I quoted this part earlier this week in a tech thread on chatgpt:

Someone like @axiom of foundationcan probably do this better justice and maybe this conversation is better for a more philosophical/daily texan thread as it doesn't relate to anything overtly political, but I think Leibniz's justification seems as reasonable as any. Here is a quick primer:

The bold makes me think you are in my house! We just cancelled Disney+ (one of the few, it appears from that article) and the flip phone comment is funny and spot on. Ted Lasso S3 dropping you'd think would be just what Apple+ is needing, but so far it doesn't seem to be nearly as culturally relevant and top of mind as in seasons past. I wonder if it's just world baseball classic, march madness and spring break competition for mindshare.

Maybe I'm missing a fundamental piece of your argument here, but both Theists and non-theist scientists alike generally agree that the Universe and existence came forth from a singularity event. Call it Big Bang or Genesis 1:1, it's the same thing, just explained from a different perspective, right? “The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.” Whether it was Heisenberg (commonly misattributed) or more likely some other random German, the sentiment remains the same, because once you've used science and natural laws and the limits of conscious human ability to understand, you will inevitably get to a ledge where you either have to view on in faith, or view down the abyss until the abyss stares back at you. (Figured you'd appreciate the Nietzchism given your affinity for Sartre).

This is a good question and honestly, it's something I've struggled with starting in 2018. I've struggled with do I abstain or do I vote, and I still struggle with it today. Since you asked in a good faith way I'll answer as honest and introspective as I can: So far, right or wrong, my justification and actions have been that a) I have voted for Republicans like Abbott and b) my logic has been that as a Christian who believes that abortion is human-on-human murder, I'm at least trying. I have become increasingly less politically interested (privilege?) though and might just abstain moving forward and let Babylon be Babylon and just focus on what God has given me to steward and resign the mental position in my head as master of my little universe.

This is a great example of a practicing Christian in the world and something I try to be as well, to all. It sounds like he's doing a fantastic job of practicing Philippians 4:5 and letting his gentleness be evident to all. We, especially myself as a practicing Christian, can all take note here.

Surprise surprise that religions and religious institutions are wicked and full of sin (because they are made up of people who are preternaturally so). So even in religion and religious institutions you see a spectrum: far right theocrats and extremists to the far left loons of women preachers with rainbow pride robes, and everything in between. Get in where you fit in and worry about the plank in your own eye first, is my motto. I care less about what drag shows are going on in society than I do with what I'm doing to lead my kids and family in the home. If I do my job correctly, God willing, the rest will work itself out. Though of course that's not necessarily a guarantee, God's will be done, and proverbs are principles and not promises... But that leads to the best life lesson for the short sojourn we have on this planet until we go to our real home: we are in control of nothing really, so just do what you think is best, in the present, one day at a time. And love those who you disagree with. Maybe even more than you do those who make it easy to love. I love you all, especially you usual suspects.

Saw this from WSJ and thought of you guys on this thread: https://www.wsj.com/articles/that-plum-job-listing-may-just-be-a-ghost-3aafc794?

Weird and interesting history/life experience there. Can't say I'd think differently than you do if that were my story too. Thanks for sharing.