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Posted (edited)
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:18 PM, satyanash said:

I think with Washington, he's already a very good recruiter and spreading him thin to help with DL targets might dilute some of that effectiveness. "Don't fix what isn't broken", or something to that effect. If you have a recruiter as good as Washington, it's best to leave him to his own devices.

Drayton is obviously an entirely different story. I don't know how much added effectiveness he'd bring to our DL recruiting, but if it's a nonzero quantity it certainly could be worth it.

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Nah. Washington only has to coach and recruit CBS, which is less than most position coaches. He can add a primary DL target like Collins without a problem. Same for Drayton and Meekins/Wareheim. All these guys have position coach jobs that are either split up or lend to recruiting guys at other positions. 

My point is this is on Herman and how he has allocated his position coaches and managed recruiting moreso than anyone else. He chose to go with less defensive coaches and chose to prioritize coaching over recruiting at DC and DL (neither of which is a bad idea in a vacuum), but he needs to make up for the weaknesses he has created on his staff. 

The again, based on your logic, none of that is on Herman because he’s an offensive coach.

Edited by Burt Macklin
Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:22 PM, SydneyCarton said:

I wonder if you’d be saying this if we inked top 3 classes back to back but had garbage or zero QB takes? Its a lazy, stupid comment/defense on its own. Its head scratching idiocy when you attempt to apply it to specific positional recruiting. 

Also, for all of those saying “everyone knows Giles sucks” I present you this fucking kind of dismissive shit. Ill stop ranting on Giles when he stops forgetting to do his fucking job. 

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Maybe you need to take a breather from recruiting for a minute.  Just sayin.  It's going to be OK I promise.

Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:09 PM, Newy25 said:

 

So on a recruiting board you do not want to discuss the development of key recruits and our position coach’s involvement anymore because it bothers you? 

I think all of that stuff is pretty germane to this thread topic. 

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Godfuckingdamn. It's not that it bothers me it's that it's the EXACT same conversation that has been had since time-out-of-time. If the discussion is solely "Oscar Giles sucks at recruiting" what exactly is there to discuss? 

The Giles discussion is basically the "Greg Davis sucks" discussion. Greg Davis sucks? No shit. The problem is that every fucking time some DL recruit is interviewed we get a fucking 2-3 page rambling "ZOMG Giles sucks stream". It's like every single tunnel screen or 5 yard out on 3rd and 9 but instead of instead of simply 5 minutes during a game thread, it leads to day long circular conversation that we've had. Ad nauseum. Ad infinitum. Factor in the fucking idiots from the football board rambling in to drop a verbal diarrhea ... 

So if we're going to discuss it, it should be about  (and I quote) "Orlando, Herman, Carrington, Doane, Lewis,  the DL analyst whose name escapes me"  because "ZOMG Giles" else has been flogged to death and is myopic, ignorant and pointless.  

  • Like 4
Posted (edited)
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:23 PM, Scholz said:

Maybe you need to take a breather from recruiting for a minute.  Just sayin.  It's going to be OK I promise.

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Here's some advice: the next time someone says something about Giles, just don't say anything. The discussion will die out more quickly. Instead, you fanned the flames, which is exactly what you trying not to do.

Edited by Machinator
Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:23 PM, Scholz said:

Maybe you need to take a breather from recruiting for a minute.  Just sayin.  It's going to be OK I promise.

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Nice attempt at a riposte that in no way defends your position. Because you can’t. Its like somone that eats shit and then tries to get up and look nonchalant while they look around to see if anyone witnessed their faceplant. 

Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:26 PM, Machinator said:

Here's some advice: the next time someone says something about Giles, just don't say anything. The discussion will die out more quickly. Instead, you fanned the flames, which is exactly what you weren't looking for.

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Sure thing.  Carry on.  

Posted (edited)
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:26 PM, Machinator said:

Here's some advice: the next time someone says something about Giles, just don't say anything. The discussion will die out more quickly. Instead, you fanned the flames, which is exactly what you trying not to do.

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Perhaps, but if CTJ isn't here to knock some sense into him it is quite possible that SC could continue forever on this quixotic adventure. I mean we could come back tomorrow and be on page 1000 with SC posts of Giles sucks back to back ad infinitum.

Edited by Bevo
Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:29 PM, SydneyCarton said:

Nice attempt at a riposte that in no way defends your position. Because you can’t. Its like somone that eats shit and then tries to get up and look nonchalant while they look around to see if anyone witnessed their faceplant. 

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Maybe you need to replace your tampon.  You're menstruating all over the board.  

  • Haha 1
Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:12 PM, SydneyCarton said:

Lol at this post when the same is true of Drayton and you’d push every member of your family in front of a bus to take a shot at Drayton. 

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there's a clear difference though. Drayton is supposed to be a rainmaker as a recruiter, it's his only fucking job - and he is not. He's fucking terrible coaching RBs. Our DL have progressed under Giles while our RBs have regressed under Drayton but I'm happy to not bring that worthless piece of shit up anymore. 

Posted



  On 3/18/2019 at 2:09 PM, Shaddie said:
Questions for the experts. 
NFL teams run a majority of 4 man fronts. 
UT runs 3 man fronts. 
Can we lie to them and say we are changing? Can we come up with an NFL argument for our style that makes any sense? 
Every single one of these kids dream is to go NFL thus the negative recruitment is going to work until we can get a few guys doing good in the league. 



1.) We have and likely will continue to deploy some four down packages, essentially this year with LB being the weakness of the defense and DL having a bit if depth.

2.) NFL argument is Poona and Charles O. It strengthens if some combo of Roach, Graham, and Coburn play themselves into draft picks over the next few years, which is likely to some extent. It's an easy sell that if you come here and show you're NFL material, you'll get your shot.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Posted (edited)
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:25 PM, golfclap said:

Godfuckingdamn. It's not that it bothers me it's that it's the EXACT same conversation that has been had since time-out-of-time. If the discussion is solely "Oscar Giles sucks at recruiting" what exactly is there to discuss? 

The Giles discussion is basically the "Greg Davis sucks" discussion. Greg Davis sucks? No shit. The problem is that every fucking time some DL recruit is interviewed we get a fucking 2-3 page rambling "ZOMG Giles sucks stream". It's like every single tunnel screen or 5 yard out on 3rd and 9 but instead of instead of simply 5 minutes during a game thread, it leads to day long circular conversation that we've had. Ad nauseum. Ad infinitum. Factor in the fucking idiots from the football board rambling in to drop a verbal diarrhea ... 

So if we're going to discuss it, it should be about  (and I quote) "Orlando, Herman, Carrington, Doane, Lewis,  the DL analyst whose name escapes me"  because "ZOMG Giles" else has been flogged to death and is myopic, ignorant and pointless.  

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So if we continue to lose out on key in state targets on the DL, what to you want us to discuss exactly? Our favorite color? This is a recruiting board and that is all very much on topic. If it seems like deja vu all over again well, it's probably because the same fucking thing keeps happening not because we want to keep bringing it up. 

Edited by Newy25
  • Haha 1
Posted

Regardless of the Giles/primary recruiter discussions, it would defintely help if Charles O went in the first two rounds of the draft like he is projected to by a fair number of outlets.

Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:33 PM, golfclap said:

there's a clear difference though. Drayton is supposed to be a rainmaker as a recruiter, it's his only fucking job - and he is not. He's fucking terrible coaching RBs. Our DL have progressed under Giles while our RBs have regressed under Drayton but I'm happy to not bring that worthless piece of shit up anymore. 

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This. Is. Fucking. Gold. 

 

Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:39 PM, Scholz said:

It is March right?  I didn't miss paying my taxes did I?  The '20 class isn't signed yet right?  

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The comments were specifically about the trend. One player we all penciled in is all but an Aggie now and another who should have been a layup wont even attend our spring game and will be a fight to sign. 

Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:36 PM, Newy25 said:

So if we continue to lose out on key in state targets on the DL, want to you want us to discuss exactly? Our favorite color? This is a recruiting board and that is all very much on topic. If it seems like deja vu all over again well, it's probably because the same fucking thing keeps happening not because we want to keep bringing it up. 

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How about ::

a. Todd Orlando interacts less with the defensive recruits than any other DC at any other program (*possibly Grinch now)

b. Bryan Carrington has done a great job with skill position players but has not connected with DL recruits, even those that are legacies and/or live a stone's throw away. Despite it being our weakest link. 

c. Tom Herman has continued to employ Giles because of his ability to teach the position and despite his clear and obvious struggles on the recruiting front. Where is the assistance coming from? Where is the fix for this problem

d. Texas has more budget and a large staff of analysts, why is their impact less-than-zero on the DL front? We've had and seen impact at other positions ... 

etc... 

 

  • Like 1
Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 2:57 PM, texifornia said:

The funny thing is that Washington does a lot of out-of-position recruiting in Atlanta (he owned the Derrian Brown recruitment), but we don't sic him on badly needed local DL. 

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Washington has been involved in some DL recruitments. He helped out with Leal once it was obvious Giles got his ass kicked. 

  • Like 1
Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:42 PM, golfclap said:

How about ::

a. Todd Orlando interacts less with the defensive recruits than any other DC at any other program (*possibly Grinch now)

b. Bryan Carrington has done a great job with skill position players but has not connected with DL recruits, even those that are legacies and/or live a stone's throw away. Despite it being our weakest link. 

c. Tom Herman has continued to employ Giles because of his ability to teach the position and despite his clear and obvious struggles on the recruiting front. Where is the assistance coming from? Where is the fix for this problem

d. Texas has more budget and a large staff of analysts, why is their impact less-than-zero on the DL front? We've had and seen impact at other positions ... 

etc... 

 

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Carrington was really involved with Daniel Carson. And Ossai (though he's more of a LB). But he is oddly absent with DL guys as a whole.

Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:42 PM, golfclap said:

How about ::

a. Todd Orlando interacts less with the defensive recruits than any other DC at any other program (*possibly Grinch now)

 

 

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Yet somehow we are loaded at corner, safety and linebacker. How is it those other positions overcome the lack of involvement from Orlando? 

  • Like 1
Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 2:09 PM, Shaddie said:

Questions for the experts. 

NFL teams run a majority of 4 man fronts. 

UT runs 3 man fronts. 

Can we lie to them and say we are changing? Can we come up with an NFL argument for our style that makes any sense? 

Every single one of these kids dream is to go NFL thus the negative recruitment is going to work until we can get a few guys doing good in the league. 

Expand  

If we consistently field great defenses, I don't care about any of that.

Maybe we can find the linemen we need among the less than elite rated DLs to make our defense as a team work. If our scheme is inglorious for DL but we win, I'll accept that hit to our overall recruiting rank.

Besides, if we become dominant, we'll attract higher rated players anyway. A field flooded with back seven/eight talent can make the job of a DL easier and more attractive no matter the scheme.

You'd have to show me where our defense is failing to perform due to recruiting for the quoted worry to have substance, IMHO.

  • Like 2
Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:43 PM, Not a Sock said:

You must have loved those post 2009 Mack Brown recruiting classes if you still want to bring out this line of reasoning.

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You're seriously comparing our last 2 classes with the lazy late Mack Brown signings?  Mkay.

  • Like 1
Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:44 PM, Newy25 said:

Yet somehow we are loaded at corner, safety and linebacker. How is it those other positions overcome the lack of involvement from Orlando? 

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Because their position coaches are better recruiters? it is known. Is this your first experience with this phenomenon? 

Our DL depth is better than LB, so ... 

 

Posted (edited)
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:48 PM, Scholz said:

You're seriously comparing our last 2 classes with the lazy late Mack Brown signings?  Mkay.

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No, hes pointing out that you’re using the same stupid logic to defend the current topic being discussed, specifically; as long as we are signing top 3 type classes then there must not be any problem at all with recruiting. 

Edited by SydneyCarton
  • Like 1
Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:52 PM, texifornia said:

You know, I'd hate the biweekly Giles freakouts more if they didn't lead to the most consistent, cogent football/recruiting talk this board sees.

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Nobody has even discussed the 9.95er bait about Mookie Cooper. Giles really brings us together.

  • Like 1
Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:48 PM, Scholz said:

You're seriously comparing our last 2 classes with the lazy late Mack Brown signings?  Mkay.

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No, I am saying that simply having a top 5 class means jack shit if you fail to address holes in the roster which we have with our shitty D Line recruiting. Getting projects and 3* and coaching them up may win the big 12 but it won’t stand up to the Bama/Clemson buzzsaw in the playoffs.

Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 2:33 PM, satyanash said:

(Charles Power) The Opening Houston: Top Performers

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

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Nick Booker getting some ink should please that random guy on Twitter talking shit to Chad Lindberg. Maybe the kid is as good as he said he was?

Posted (edited)
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:45 PM, RomaVicta said:

If we consistently field great defenses, I don't care about any of that.

Maybe we can find the linemen we need among the less than elite rated DLs to make our defense as a team work. If our scheme is inglorious for DL but we win, I'll accept that hit to our overall recruiting rank.

Besides, if we become dominant, we'll attract higher rated players anyway. A field flooded with back seven/eight talent can make the job of a DL easier and more attractive no matter the scheme.

You'd have to show me where our defense is failing to perform due to recruiting for the quoted worry to have substance, IMHO.

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We just started Breckyn Hager at DE for a whole fucking season and we were lucky all our DL stayed healthy.  We were low on depth and talent last year.

Our starting line next year may end up being Roach, Wilbon, Graham. That’s a fucking meh DL at best.  I know a lot of people like Roach but he wasn’t good as a DL in 2017, and I’m not sure he’ll be all that great this year. His best attribute is his fluidity, which shows at LB/B-backer, but no so much at DL. He’s not all that explosive and he’s gonna have to show he can carry the 290 or so he’s been rumored to be at without losing athleticism like he did in 2017. Graham has always been somewhat of a looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane, and Wilbon is just average. He won’t get moved a ton, but he won’t make many big plays either.

A guy like Leal might start on this team in 2019. We need talent in the DL. We don’t have much of it, and the talent we do have is young and unproven. 

This is why shit like this and Scholz’s top 3 class stuff is so dumb. Recruiting is a leading indicator. You’re not gonna see it play out on the field until it’s too late and then those same folks who said we should shut up will be whining about our DL performance.

  On 3/18/2019 at 3:43 PM, Fud said:

Washington has been involved in some DL recruitments. He helped out with Leal once it was obvious Giles got his ass kicked. 

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Yeah but it was already too late at that point. I was hoping Herman would learn and do this proactively for 2020. It does seem that he’s been proactive in recruiting Broughton himself, but it doesn’t appear he’s assigned guys to help Giles with  the other DL.

 

  On 3/18/2019 at 3:36 PM, Machinator said:

Regardless of the Giles/primary recruiter discussions, it would defintely help if Charles O went in the first two rounds of the draft like he is projected to by a fair number of outlets.

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I’m not sure how the aggy negative recruiting didn’t lose its power with the year Charles just had. He had like 9.5 sacks and 18 TFL. That shows a DL in this scheme can put up numbers. Not to mention back to back conference defensive linemen of the year. 

Regarldess, him getting drafted high and before any of the aggy DL would definitely seem to help.

Edited by Burt Macklin
  • Like 5
Posted (edited)
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:49 PM, Machinator said:

You're not going to see that until 2021 or so. Recruiting is a leading indicator of results.

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Then aren't we defying that indicator with how we do with recruits from previous regimes that were not highly rated?

We're already fielding formidable defenses with sub-championship talent, are we not?

My argument is not that recruiting rankings don't matter. My argument is that on-field team performance is the best indicator of the success of recruiting strategy.

Traits that are adequate or above adequate for our needs may not lead to high recruit rankings for those players. We would rather have Leal, but we can perhaps do well at that position from a team aspect with lower ranked recruits.

Edit to add: I think this answers Burt above, as well. It seems my point has been facilely morphed into some notion that talent is required. No. See above.

Edited by RomaVicta
  • Like 1
Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 3:55 PM, Not a Sock said:

No, I am saying that simply having a top 5 class means jack shit if you fail to address holes in the roster which we have with our shitty D Line recruiting. Getting projects and 3* and coaching them up may win the big 12 but it won’t stand up to the Bama/Clemson buzzsaw in the playoffs.

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So we're going to the playoffs? Awesome. 

 

Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 4:10 PM, Burt Macklin said:

I’m not sure how the aggy negative recruiting didn’t lose its power with the year Charles just had. He had like 9.5 sacks and 18 TFL. That shows a DL in this scheme can put up numbers. Not to mention back to back conference defensive linemen of the year. 

 

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Big 12 Defensive Lineman of the Year doesn't mean much if it doesn't pay off at the next level and if recruits think the Big 12 sucks at defense. Poona won the award and went undrafted for his effort. Recruits want to "secure the bag" or whatever, and the best way to do that is to be drafted highly.

Hell, Kris Boyd was named First-Team All Big 12 and a large chunk of our own fanbase thinks he was a JAG at best.

  • Like 2
Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 2:04 PM, golfclap said:

Less about Giles and more about Grinch, Umainlamen seemed OU bound to me. 

So Collin Sullivan was 6'2" 190 and just a shade behind Demas in all the testing. Demas measured in at 6'2.5" and 182. Jaylon Jones was only 6'1.5" and Omiere was 6'3.5" 217. 

D15SKkIXcAUWixB.jpg:large

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Siap

Who is this guy?

Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 4:14 PM, Machinator said:

Our defense was not formidable this year.

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Was it better than would have been predicted from recruit rankings in previous years? Did we not perform better than expected in view of the points Burt makes above? Shallow in the line and not having enough high ranked recruits led to a pretty solid performance against Georgia if I recall correctly.

Anyway, I've said my piece. It may very well be idiotic. I don't care to beat the topic to death for four pages ending in name-calling rancor. 

Posted (edited)
  On 3/18/2019 at 4:19 PM, irishtexan said:

I'd welcome the diversion if you want to post it.

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I posted it in the IT update. https://www.surlyhorns.com/board/index.php?/topic/100-texas-recruiting-notes-2020/page/232/&tab=comments#comment-1128868

 

There's also this if someone has it: https://247sports.com/college/texas/Article/Ex-UT-commit-Mookie-Cooper-still-considering-Longhorns-recruiting--130228980/

Edited by Machinator
Posted (edited)
  On 3/18/2019 at 4:20 PM, Machinator said:
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  Quote

There is no way around it. Texas lost an important piece to the recruiting puzzle a couple of weeks ago. Four-star Saint Louis Trinity Catholic (MO) athlete Mookie Cooper simply said he needed more time to think things over and backed out of his verbal pledge to the Longhorns just three weeks after pulling the trigger. “I just wasn’t all that sure that was the place I wanted to be,” Cooper said. “I want to visit other schools and take all my officials. I want to weigh all of my options before I make a final decision. I’m going to wait until closer to the signing period to make a final decision.”

Cooper sided with Texas while on campus for junior day last month. He built a strong relationship with the staff and was considered a Texas lean for the majority of the process, which made his decision to back away extremely surprising. Still, Cooper was adamant that he just wanted to explore other options and is still considering the Longhorns. “Texas is most definitely still in it,” Cooper said. “Some people think I knocked them all the way out. But they are still one of my top schools. I didn’t lose love for Texas. That’s where I thought I wanted to be. Just because I decommitted doesn’t mean they lost their spot in my process.”

Cooper added that he had a productive conversation with the Texas staff shortly after his decommitment. “They told me that I’m still No. 1 on the board,” Cooper said. “But they also told me this is a business. They said to let them know that I’m still interested because they are going to have to replace me. I told that that I still am.” Cooper plans to take closer looks at Illinois, Ohio State, Nebraska, Oklahoma, LSU, Tennessee and Louisville At 5-foot-11, 178 pounds, Cooper is ranked as the No. 12 wide receiver and No. 66 overall prospect in the state, per 247Sports Composite.

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Edited by satyanash
Posted
  On 3/18/2019 at 4:11 PM, RomaVicta said:

Then aren't we defying that indicator with how we do with recruits from previous regimes that were not highly rated?

We're already fielding formidable defenses with sub-championship talent, are we not?

My argument is not that recruiting rankings don't matter. My argument is that on-field team performance is the best indicator of the success of recruiting strategy.

Traits that are adequate or above adequate for our needs may not lead to high recruit rankings for those players. We would rather have Leal, but we can perhaps do well at that position from a team aspect with lower ranked recruits.

Edit to add: I think this answers Burt above, as well. It seems my point has been facilely morphed into some notion that talent is required. No. See above.

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Dude. This doesn’t answer my argument at all. This is a stupid, losing argument you’re advancing.

Our defense wasn’t that good this year due to lack of depth and talent. Our defense got killed in like half it’s game this year. Do you not think we could’ve used better DL as Ok St was getting 8 yards very time they ran outside zone at Hager?

Recruiting rankings matter, and on-field team performance suffered because we didn’t have enough talent, including at DL.  And our peformance this year had nothing to do with recruiting strategy because the guys that played at DL weren’t recruited by this staff.

this whole idea of traits the staff wants and doing well at the position is nonsense. This staff wanted Leal more than almost any recruit. They lost him. They want Broughton, Collins, Princely, and Dorbah. It’s a clear top 4. Missing these guys would not be good. It’s that simple.

it doesn’t matter if they do an admirable job coaching up lesser players. It would still be better for our team’s performance to get the better players. Your trust the coaches argument is completely inapposite with this staff missing its top targets, which you also say is fine. If you trust the coaches evaluation and talent development, then you should want them to get their top targets and realize it’s not a good sign if they miss.

We’re talking about championship-level teams in the next few years. Deficinces in talent like this are the difference between winning 10 games but losing your conference vs. winning the conference and possibly the playoff.

This shit matters and your arguments as to why it doesn’t are either flat out wrong (defense performed well this year) or logically incoherent (trust the coaches but don’t care when they miss the guys they want most).

 

 

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