The Big 5 & all the rest

[bolverk 29671]

Nice piece in the NYTimes yesterday about the growing economic and cultural gap between Texas' big cities and the rest of the state. It highlights Longview and improvements they're making in their downtown to be competitive for attracting and retaining workers.

There's a lot to unpack from economic, cultural, and political* perspectives and the implications all need to be carefully weighed and what we should do in response. Are these towns wasting their time and tax dollars on these sorts of efforts? Or are they necessary to be able to hold their own? What else should they (we) be doing?

I know there are a lot of you from Longview and Northeast Texas, so please chime in from a local perspective.

*I didn't put this in the politics board because I'd rather have a reasonable discussion than partisan shit flinging. Please, kindly consider having a civilized conversation about this. I think it's too important for our state (and nation) to not discuss. Thanks.

 

The ‘Texas Miracle’ Missed Most of Texas

July 7, 2019

LONGVIEW, Tex. — On the eastern plains of Texas, local leaders are trying to stop the bleeding of talent to the bright lights of Dallas and Austin. They are sprucing up downtown, completing 10 miles of walking trails, investing in parks and schools and making other improvements that they hope will entice young workers to stay and help this part of the state finally claim a share of the Texas Miracle.

Few parts of America have nurtured faster job growth than Texas in the years since the 2008 financial crisis, in what is now the longest sustained economic expansion in American history. But that growth has largely left cities like Longview in the dust. No state — not even California, long held up as the embodiment of America’s widening geographic inequality — has seen a larger post-recession divergence between its elite cities and everywhere else.

Nearly all of the net growth in jobs and new businesses in Texas over the last decade, Labor Department data show, has been concentrated in four large metropolitan areas — Austin, Dallas, Houston and San Antonio. Those areas accounted for more than four out of every five jobs created in the state since the recession ended, their populations swelling with surges of young and talented workers. Collectively, the four saw double the rate of job growth as the rest of Texas.

Cont'd:

Spoiler

 

A similar geographic inequality is playing out in other places in America, alarming officials at the Federal Reserve. While the latest jobs report showed the economy’s continued strength after 10 years of expansion, the effects have been uneven, with the wealthiest parts of the country reaping a disproportionate share of the gains. The economy has evolved toward more technology and service jobs, favoring areas with highly educated workers and high-end professional service industries — and leaving smaller, traditionally blue-collar towns like Longview at a disadvantage.

While the richest neighborhoods in Texas’ most dynamic cities have grown much richer as the recovery wore on, the poorest parts of the state fell even further behind. The Economic Innovation Group, a Washington think tank, sorts ZIP codes across the country on a five-point scale, with “prosperous” at the top and “distressed” at the bottom. Research from the group found that from 2008 to 2016, the most prosperous ZIP codes in Texas — heavily concentrated in those star metro areas — accounted for more than two-thirds of the state’s net growth in jobs and business establishments.

More than two million Texans live in ZIP codes that fell from “at-risk,” which is the second-lowest group, to “distressed” over the same period. A majority of those ZIP codes are rural; many of them lie in areas that rely disproportionately on the volatile oil and gas industries and lack economic cushions when energy prices fall and drilling slows.

“It’s certainly not a rising-tide-lifting-everybody story,” said John Lettieri, the president of the Economic Innovation Group. “The gains are not being segregated in other states in the way that they are in Texas.” In the Texas economy, he added, “it’s superstar cities, and then it’s rural and everybody else.”

Longview falls squarely in “everybody else,” but its leaders are optimistic they can move up. The city of 81,000 people is the center of a metropolitan area of 220,000 near the Louisiana border. It gained jobs after the recession but lost all of them when oil prices fell through 2015 and 2016. Small businesses started to go under. The Chamber of Commerce lost 33 members in one year alone.

There were only 1,800 more jobs in the Longview area in April than there were 10 years ago, according to the Labor Department, an annual growth rate of less than 0.2 percent. Gregg County, which includes Longview, lost more businesses than it created from 2012 to 2016, the innovation group’s data show.

Population in the Longview metro area grew by about 2 percent from 2010 to 2018, according to the Census Bureau. Austin’s grew by 26 percent. In a sort of proxy statistic for young urban professionals, Austin added 33 new breweries from 2013 to 2018, according to the Brewers Association, a trade group.

Longview added one.

“In the last 10 years,” said Kelly Hall, the president of the Longview Chamber of Commerce, “we saw young professionals like my son, they graduate from college and where do they go? Megacenters. Austin, Dallas, San Francisco.”

Economic distress and the struggle to bring in young talent are linked, economists say. “You need to have so many things to be able to get to where you need to be to attract people and businesses,” said Pia M. Orrenius, a vice president and senior economist at the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas. “One of the things you need is the work force. A place like Longview, it’s a little bit harder to compete.”

Manufacturing, energy and health care jobs dominate in the Longview metro area. Christus Good Shepherd Medical Center-Longview is the largest employer in the city. Still, the median income and the share of adults with a college degree both fall well below the state average.

Longview’s leaders are trying to change that. Mayor Andy Mack, an oral surgeon, won election on a platform of wooing the city’s college-educated children back to town. He pushed for passage of a $104 million bond package that funded parks, schools and infrastructure, including the walking paths. He’s happy to tell you how affordable a starter home here is.

“We have everything you need in Longview,” Mr. Mack said recently, after a luncheon sponsored by the Chamber of Commerce that focused on community health. “We have plentiful land. We have adequate water, which most places don’t have. We have everything you need. All we need is for people to realize that we’re here now.”

A few years back, Jack Buttram and his wife, Sarah, realized Longview did not, in fact, have everything they wanted. The list of what was lacking started with good, local beer, Mr. Buttram, who was at the time an avid home-brewer, said in a recent interview. “It pretty much came down to, we’re either going to move to Colorado, where all the stuff we love already exists,” he said, “or we were going to stay here and make some stuff that we love happen.”

They stayed. Mr. Buttram teamed up with a friend, John Oglesbee, who ran a medical billing company but dreamed of something hoppier. They put together a business plan, lined up some financial backers and secured a lease in what had been a sleepy corner of a sagging downtown. They opened Oil Horse Brewing — the first and, to this point, only Longview brewery — in May 2016. Demand was so strong, the men said, they were constantly running out of beer. They have since increased their production.

Many of their customers had never consumed craft beer before, and come in asking for the closest thing to Miller Lite or Michelob Ultra. “People are just terrified of hop bitterness,” Mr. Buttram said.

Mr. Oglesbee said “it’s going to be extremely difficult” to attract a wave of craft-loving young professionals to town. “Longview was, and probably will be for a long time, extremely blue-collar,” he said. “We are going to need to grow our industry that’s white collar. I don’t know if Longview is there.”

There is a worry among some business leaders in Longview that the white-collar workers now live in cities that don’t share their values. “Their whole culture is different,” said Vicki D. Jones, an entrepreneur here who runs a boutique for women undergoing cancer treatment. She returned to Longview after college in Las Vegas and also runs a store in Dallas. “Their economy is different, their beliefs are different.”

Ms. Jones’s and others’ hope is that Longview can sell a particular type of young worker on a mix of the values they grew up with, with just enough of the big-city amenities to make a smaller town attractive. At Oil Horse, they host monthly theological debates, over beer.

Sometimes the appeal succeeds. Josh Black was just the sort of young talent that Longview has grown accustomed to losing. He grew up here, went to college at Baylor, in Waco, and finished law school in 2009. He married a woman who grew up outside Dallas. His friends were all settling there, or in Austin or Houston. But he had a job offer in Longview, and nine years ago, he persuaded his wife, Libby, to return to the city of his childhood.

In Longview, he said in an interview here, in a cavernous espresso cafe that has opened up across the street from Oil Horse, “we could make a splash, do big things for the community.”

The biggest splash was buying his own business, a title company, from an older friend from church who had reached retirement age.

He and his wife still miss the restaurants of Dallas, and they would love to get something like a Whole Foods in town. But when they visit the big city, Mr. Black said, they’re always glad to come back home.

 

 

[NorthLoop 14196]

Craft beer doesn't have to have "hop bitterness". That guy has the wrong attitude. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Who is the US congressman from Longview? I can’t remember?  Perhaps he might be an indicator of a larger problem there. 

[bolverk 29671]

4 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Who is the US congressman from Longview? I can’t remember?  Perhaps he might be an indicator of a larger problem there. 

Not here, Hugo.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Just now, bolverk said:

Not here, Hugo.

I know, but seriously, aggy is a problem.

[SydneyCarton 48099]

Interesting read, Bolverk. Thanks for posting.

I mean, I'm not sure what commentary I have on the article, positive or negative. It's hard to get big industry to go to places like Longview, and people follow jobs. Not everyone has the entrepreneurial spirit to start their own businesses, and advertising/marketing will never get a hold in places like that. I don't really know how to reverse that trend, especially the more society moves away from an Agrarian culture of individual farms.

 

My wife and I love small towns. We want to retire and have property in the hill country, so to us a place like Longview in theory isn't a place we wouldn't consider living at all. I've never been there, so I can't speak with any kind of authority there. There is a possible boom coming of old people retiring to smaller towns. But from looking at google images (again, hardly a fullproof evaluation method, I grant you), what I CAN say is that it seems ugly as fuck there. Just flat, nothing special. THAT would be an inhibitor for us. 

[Parliament 14258]

6 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Not here, Hugo.

1234

Texas may have it worse, but most all 15-50 thousand people towns "in the middle of nowhere" struggle with this.  I've lived in those towns since college.  Kids go off to Fargo, Columbus, etc for college and come to enjoy the "scene" and amenities.  They have families and good job offers (as good as in Fargo) but don't wanna give that up.  I don't understand that myself, but I know it's a huge problem.

There are towns who are doing well at "stretching that gap;" of being a cow town with a micro-brewery.  Good schools, day care and after school options for working parents, and a nice park district.  Even a YMCA.  When Dickinson got our YMCA way back it was HUGE.  A small thing like that is a big think when you don't have it.

Rural areas tend to have better job prospects for men than women. (Agriculture and manufacturing just simply tip that way.)  I talk to many people who interview great prospects from out of town only to have them say, "I'll take this job if my wife can find a job in this town also."  Too often they can not.

[Nivek 16928]

With family in NE Texas, there is little to offer when folks lack resources. The country club in Atlanta struggles to attract members, and used to be busier in the late 70’s early 80’s. Now it is mostly full of older folks.

The banning of booze, over abundance of churches, and lack of opportunity and means is not an easy fix. Atlanta has a nice little downtown section that is mostly dead, but has the potential for tourism or a nightlife if they bothered to build it. But right now, that crowd heads up to Texarkana/Shreveport for nightlife and Jefferson for kid friendly activities.

It will take an effort on the part of the community to invite the change, something that many residents are likely to resist. After all, those who are there are there for a reason.

[Guest Lobo]

I think the RGV and El Paso are doing pretty well right now.  

[bolverk 29671]

39 minutes ago, Lobo said:

I think the RGV and El Paso are doing pretty well right now.  

They're holding their own and doing okay for various reasons: international trade, sheer size, and high birth rates. I think when a metro area reaches a certain critical mass, they can get by on those, but EP and RGV still suffer from the "brain drain" thing.

[Zepol87 9185]

Suburb boom has made this even harder for my family. One side of my family is from Abilene and Sweetwater. They would come visit and Dallas was just too much for them but then they went to Mckinney, Anna, or Royse City type places and enjoyed the smaller town feel while being close to Dallas. They still never really do much in Dallas but they enjoy living close to it and having relatives visit from out of town. No way they would ever move back out of a metro area. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

2 hours ago, Parliament said:

"I'll take this job if my wife can find a job in this town also."  Too often they can not.

There is also a Target divide. There are lots of women who will live in a town with a Target and a Wal-Mart, but not one with just a Wal-Mart or neither. 

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13512]

Rockdale tried to entice business but unfortunately they gambled on a Chinese Bitcoin mining company and lost: https://www.wired.com/story/hard-luck-texas-town-bet-bitcoin-lost/

Another problem with these small cities is lack of quality healthcare.  There is little money given to improving the healthcare options. The people involved may be very dedicated and knowledgeable but its a losing business to try to invest in improvements. 

Lack of jobs, lack of good education, lack of healthcare....   Tell me again why someone would want to live and work in a small town? I understand the lifestyle appeal but I would hate to be there full-time.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

2 hours ago, Nivek said:

With family in NE Texas, there is little to offer when folks lack resources. The country club in Atlanta struggles to attract members, and used to be busier in the late 70’s early 80’s. Now it is mostly full of older folks.

The banning of booze, over abundance of churches, and lack of opportunity and means is not an easy fix. Atlanta has a nice little downtown section that is mostly dead, but has the potential for tourism or a nightlife if they bothered to build it. But right now, that crowd heads up to Texarkana/Shreveport for nightlife and Jefferson for kid friendly activities.

It will take an effort on the part of the community to invite the change, something that many residents are likely to resist. After all, those who are there are there for a reason.
 

Most small towns have done away with their ridiculous Prohibition-era laws. I can't think of the number of small towns that now have downtown bars where it used to be only roadhouses out by the county line. Of course some of them still don't have downtown bars and those are the deadest downtowns imaginable, like Cleveland (Texas) and Clarksville, my grandmother's hometown in Red River County. I have cousins on both sides of my family up there and they've told me the same thing, independent of each other: there is some Mr Big up there who has halted any outsiders from coming in with good jobs because he wants to keep his labor pool working for $8/hr. Clarksville is really, really sad, man. It used to be an up and coming town but now there are payday loan joints on the courthouse square and it's because of shit like that. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

2 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Rockdale tried to entice business but unfortunately they gambled on a Chinese Bitcoin mining company and lost: https://www.wired.com/story/hard-luck-texas-town-bet-bitcoin-lost/

Another problem with these small cities is lack of quality healthcare.  There is little money given to improving the healthcare options. The people involved may be very dedicated and knowledgeable but its a losing business to try to invest in improvements. 

Lack of jobs, lack of good education, lack of healthcare....   Tell me again why someone would want to live and work in a small town? I understand the lifestyle appeal but I would hate to be there full-time.

Rockdale is kinda ugly in the way that a lot of non-county seats are. It was laid out along a railroad instead of around a square, so there is no real focal point to it. Rockdale's salvation will come when Austin finally gets to it, and Austin will get to it. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13512]

Another story about how Greg Osterag (KU and NBA fame) is investing heavily in Mount Vernon:  https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/26943300/how-small-texas-town-reacted-hiring-art-briles

the story is about the Art Briles controversy but it shows that small towns need investment dollars to have a hope of surviving.

I also think that small town Texas needs to embrace tourism from the big cities. Or entice remote workers who can earn the big city salaries but want the small town living. This is where high speed rail can help some small towns thrive as a stretch suburb of a big city.  If a high speed rail stops at a small town a handful of times per day between houston and dallas, it gives residents more options.

[Neonmoon 38129]

3 hours ago, bolverk said:

many of them lie in areas that rely disproportionately on the volatile oil and gas industries and lack economic cushions when energy prices fall and drilling slows.

Some people don’t want to sell the boat 

[jdhorn92 1549]

3 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Who is the US congressman from Longview? I can’t remember?  Perhaps he might be an indicator of a larger problem there. 

The Minister of Culture?

[hayden_horn 11362]

2 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Interesting read, Bolverk. Thanks for posting.

I mean, I'm not sure what commentary I have on the article, positive or negative. It's hard to get big industry to go to places like Longview, and people follow jobs. Not everyone has the entrepreneurial spirit to start their own businesses, and advertising/marketing will never get a hold in places like that. I don't really know how to reverse that trend, especially the more society moves away from an Agrarian culture of individual farms.

 

My wife and I love small towns. We want to retire and have property in the hill country, so to us a place like Longview in theory isn't a place we wouldn't consider living at all. I've never been there, so I can't speak with any kind of authority there. There is a possible boom coming of old people retiring to smaller towns. But from looking at google images (again, hardly a fullproof evaluation method, I grant you), what I CAN say is that it seems ugly as fuck there. Just flat, nothing special. THAT would be an inhibitor for us. 

@bolverk, thanks for the article, very thought provoking.

warning: a bit of a long post ahead.

sydney, you make some interesting points. however, so does @Hugo Stiglitz, by asking a simple, CR-type question. their representative is louie gohmert, who represents the region proudly, and, by all acoounts, they are proud to have him representing their strong, conservative values.

when you approach the question of "how do we attract sustainable, white collar jobs to town" from a longview point of view, local politics and religious fervor do have to be taken into account. i used to work in east texas for many a summer through high school and college. my mom now lives in a nothing town off highway 80. that place is fucking backwards as hell. until recently, van zandt county was dry as a bone, not even in gas stations could one buy a six pack. "across the tracks" is a real thing in many east texas towns. that's an interesting comparison to austin, because "across 35" was (and is, even with gentrification) still a thing.

so without going political, and let's forego the value judgment of political parties, let's just look at high tech employers and their more forward thinking policies. how would these play in longview, texas without strangling its current cowboy culture?

let's take another comparison to austin - how has the influx of high tech affected austin culture? old austinites will tell you old austin is largely dead. that's the price of progress and prosperity - a city has to sacrifice at least a significant part of its identity to import those white collar jobs and to keep the kids "back home."

i moved to plano when i was 8, in 1986, right as the sleepy farm town was taking off into the atmosphere. corporate giants like frito lay and jc penney were moving their corporate hqs from NYC to this small farm town. why? well, there was DFW airport, which was important and LOV as well. proximity to dallas, i guess, but most plano people didn't really go to dallas. once the area took off, people would move to plano to work oil or real estate jobs in the city, but almost none of the domestic employees went into town. the hqs were out in the sticks, and people started buying up builder homes nearby, which gave rise to the strip mall hell that exists there now. (sidenote: neither here nor there, but i think the strip mall hell was a simple product of its times, and could be avoided in newer areas of growth). when i moved to plano, our home was next to extensive fields we used to explore. within a few years those fields became subdivisions. instead of fields, we played in half finished homes, watching this small town turn into a proper suburb. and to sydney's point, the geography of the plano area is fucking ugly. no redeeming features at all. but it did not matter.

and somehow it worked. plano had land - lots of land. texas had a friendly tax structure, and the geography made sense for these companies. property costs made sense for employees, and it became an attractive idea to get more house for even less money than they were paying now, and a big yard to boot. even more saw plano as a destination, and now it's an abomination of very white upper middle class people with very little culture, but nevertheless, it is a thriving business hub.

could longview adopt that model? they have the land. property cost will be attractive for people from other geographies. they have a potential partner in tyler. if they could upgrade their airport to something at least resembling bergstrom when it opened, they might be able to sell people on the model.

but they'll sacrifice their cowboy town. is that something that they really want, in order to prosper?

[SydneyCarton 48099]

6 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

@bolverk, thanks for the article, very thought provoking.

warning: a bit of a long post ahead.

sydney, you make some interesting points. however, so does @Hugo Stiglitz, by asking a simple, CR-type question. their representative is louie gohmert, who represents the region proudly, and, by all acoounts, they are proud to have him representing their strong, conservative values.

when you approach the question of "how do we attract sustainable, white collar jobs to town" from a longview point of view, local politics and religious fervor do have to be taken into account. i used to work in east texas for many a summer through high school and college. my mom now lives in a nothing town off highway 80. that place is fucking backwards as hell. until recently, van zandt county was dry as a bone, not even in gas stations could one buy a six pack. "across the tracks" is a real thing in many east texas towns. that's an interesting comparison to austin, because "across 35" was (and is, even with gentrification) still a thing.

so without going political, and let's forego the value judgment of political parties, let's just look at high tech employers and their more forward thinking policies. how would these play in longview, texas without strangling its current cowboy culture?

let's take another comparison to austin - how has the influx of high tech affected austin culture? old austinites will tell you old austin is largely dead. that's the price of progress and prosperity - a city has to sacrifice at least a significant part of its identity to import those white collar jobs and to keep the kids "back home."

i moved to plano when i was 8, in 1986, right as the sleepy farm town was taking off into the atmosphere. corporate giants like frito lay and jc penney were moving their corporate hqs from NYC to this small farm town. why? well, there was DFW airport, which was important and LOV as well. proximity to dallas, i guess, but most plano people didn't really go to dallas. once the area took off, people would move to plano to work oil or real estate jobs in the city, but almost none of the domestic employees went into town. the hqs were out in the sticks, and people started buying up builder homes nearby, which gave rise to the strip mall hell that exists there now. (sidenote: neither here nor there, but i think the strip mall hell was a simple product of its times, and could be avoided in newer areas of growth). when i moved to plano, our home was next to extensive fields we used to explore. within a few years those fields became subdivisions. instead of fields, we played in half finished homes, watching this small town turn into a proper suburb. and to sydney's point, the geography of the plano area is fucking ugly. no redeeming features at all. but it did not matter.

and somehow it worked. plano had land - lots of land. texas had a friendly tax structure, and the geography made sense for these companies. property costs made sense for employees, and it became an attractive idea to get more house for even less money than they were paying now, and a big yard to boot. even more saw plano as a destination, and now it's an abomination of very white upper middle class people with very little culture, but nevertheless, it is a thriving business hub.

could longview adopt that model? they have the land. property cost will be attractive for people from other geographies. they have a potential partner in tyler. if they could upgrade their airport to something at least resembling bergstrom when it opened, they might be able to sell people on the model.

but they'll sacrifice their cowboy town. is that something that they really want, in order to prosper?

Some great points in here. But even if they adopted the Plano model, they are still too far from proximity to a major city to tip it over the edge. Where will the jobs come from? I dont see many major companies relocating there. 

[Zavala 1384]

Cookie cutter suburbs and mini-malls or just a nice cute cowboy/farmer ghost town? 

I'm curious, you say attract the high-tech white collar jobs, but then give an example of Plano which attracted headquarters of blue collar food manufacturing and retail jobs. High-tech employees like big cities, chicken coop apartments, and their phone apps taking care of their food and transportation. Not really the same suburb/strip mall type.

[Neonmoon 38129]

Connectivity is an issue for small towns. Businesses want to be near a large airport, Agriculture being a big exception. However with Ag becoming more and more automated, more people in small towns will be without jobs. 

My hope is that technology will make the necessity of big city locations less in the future. 

We dream of retiring in a small town 

[hayden_horn 11362]

3 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Some great points in here. But even if they adopted the Plano model, they are still too far from proximity to a major city to tip it over the edge. Where will the jobs come from? I dont see many major companies relocating there. 

nobody thought major companies would relocate to plano, but now that you've got my marbles rolling around in my brainpan...

maybe they don't have to relocate hqs there. but maybe longview could market a "pastoral" lifestyle with lower property costs, but proper broadband. maybe they could lure facebook/google/whoever satellite offices for employees who want to leave the big city life, and instead of working remote in dallas or austin or houston, they can have a ten minute commute to some low-rise office building and be surrounded by other like-minded, not necessarily anti-big city types, but people who want slower weekend lifestyle.

i know there are people my age to whom that would appeal, but i'd bet there is a non insignificant millennial hipster population that would like a smaller town lifestyle, if the breweries and other accouterments are in evidence. they could grow their own organic vegetables raise their chickens or whatever on their own land, and not sit in traffic for an hour or longer one way to and from work.

i dunno, just spitballing here, but i would be willing to bet the big tech firms could be sold on the idea.

[hayden_horn 11362]

2 minutes ago, Zavala said:

Cookie cutter suburbs and mini-malls or just a nice cute cowboy/farmer ghost town? 

I'm curious, you say attract the high-tech white collar jobs, but then give an example of Plano which attracted headquarters of blue collar food manufacturing and retail jobs. High-tech employees like big cities, chicken coop apartments, and their phone apps taking care of their food and transportation. Not really the same suburb/strip mall type.

maybe a mix of the two. 

what exactly do you know about plano in the 80s? evidently nothing.

EDS was also there.

the penney hq jobs that moved there weren't blue collar, and neither were those frito lay jobs.  

big money came to town and it became VERY evident in west plano near those hqs. corporate hq does not mean "assembly line jobs."

[Zavala 1384]

7 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Some great points in here. But even if they adopted the Plano model, they are still too far from proximity to a major city to tip it over the edge. Where will the jobs come from? I dont see many major companies relocating there. 

It's not a shit-ton of jobs or anything. But it's better than nothing. Texas is going to be a major leader in energy - both oil export and renewable. Maybe they look at attracting renewable energy companies. 

https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/business/renewableenergy-report.pdf

https://www.wsj.com/articles/which-state-is-a-big-renewable-energy-pioneer-texas-1472414098

There may be a bigger and bigger sliver of that blue for places like Longview. 

Find a body of water that can be manipulated to store the energy efficiently, it would be a game changer. 

[Zavala 1384]

1 minute ago, hayden_horn said:

maybe a mix of the two. 

what exactly do you know about plano in the 80s? evidently nothing.

EDS was also there.

the penney hq jobs that moved there weren't blue collar, and neither were those frito lay jobs.  

big money came to town and it became VERY evident in west plano near those hqs. corporate hq does not mean "assembly line jobs."

I agree, I'm from the coast, I know jack shit about Plano, other than when I had some work out there it was a mini-mall wasteland as you said.

What I was trying to get at, is that the old-school white collar jobs at those HQs were different types of people than modern high-tech white collar guys. Two different animals. 

[clapclapclap 9000]

Except the Longview metro isn't shrinking, it is still growing.  Not fast, but steady, unlikely many smaller towns or similar sized metros in the Midwest.  2010 = 214K,  2018 = 219K.  And it is next door to faster growing Tyler, 2010 = 210K, 2018 = 230K 

 https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?src=bkmk

Longview and Tyler are about as far apart as Dallas and Ft. Worth, so close enough to utilize med services/specialists in Tyler.  Same for any shopping and services that might not be in a metro of 200K but found in a regional market of over a half million.  Tyler and the region are attracting retirees, which creates service jobs.  Not the highest paying, but the cost of living is very low, and the overall growth continues to add to the critical mass.   

You can see similar metro or regional growth elsewhere in the state in the last 8 years.  Amarillo 252k to 266k, Waco from 253 to 272, Laredo 250 to 276, Corpus 428 to 453, Lubbock 291 to 319, Collie Station 229 to 262, El Paso 804 to 846, Killeeen-Temple 405 to 452, and Midland-Odessa 279 to 340.

And by Big 5, I assume you mean DFW, Houston, San Antonio, Austin, and the Rio Grande Valley, because the latter has continued to boom from 1.181 million to 1.290 million in the last 8 years. 

So while the "Big 5" do soak up most of the job and pop. growth, they symbiotically also fuel activity in the state's other regions and towns, many of which still have healthy growth or are even booming.  The core issues the article starts to explore are important, but Longview isn't dying.

Edited July 12, 2019 by clapclapclap

[clapclapclap 9000]

43 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

sydney, you make some interesting points. however, so does @Hugo Stiglitz, by asking a simple, CR-type question. their representative is louie gohmert, who represents the region proudly, and, by all acoounts, they are proud to have him representing their strong, conservative values. 

Good to see posters that are genius enough to recognize that Sheila Jackson Lee is one of the prime drivers of Houston's boom.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13512]

27 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

nobody thought major companies would relocate to plano, but now that you've got my marbles rolling around in my brainpan...

maybe they don't have to relocate hqs there. but maybe longview could market a "pastoral" lifestyle with lower property costs, but proper broadband. maybe they could lure facebook/google/whoever satellite offices for employees who want to leave the big city life, and instead of working remote in dallas or austin or houston, they can have a ten minute commute to some low-rise office building and be surrounded by other like-minded, not necessarily anti-big city types, but people who want slower weekend lifestyle.

i know there are people my age to whom that would appeal, but i'd bet there is a non insignificant millennial hipster population that would like a smaller town lifestyle, if the breweries and other accouterments are in evidence. they could grow their own organic vegetables raise their chickens or whatever on their own land, and not sit in traffic for an hour or longer one way to and from work.

i dunno, just spitballing here, but i would be willing to bet the big tech firms could be sold on the idea.

you could be right but I would also think that a Facebook or Google would be concerned about attracting talent to a small city/big town. If anything they may increase work-from-wherever options but that doesn't necessarily help the rural communities.

But it's not like this is a recent trend of people moving from rural areas to big city.  When is the last time there was sustained movement in the other direction?  Basically never in recent history?

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

Oversimplifying, but a lot of these places can hold tight to their biblical and political values and live isolated like the Amish, or they can loosen up and join 21st century commerce.   Legalize pot, (and booze in some places), allow gambling.  Be innovative.  

[Hawndoh 2386]

Plano also had the advantage of highly regarded schools which helps attract families with money.

Towns like Longview can't pay teachers as competitively as a Plano or Woodlands or Southlake or other wealthy suburb. Those kinds of districts soak up the talent which makes it very difficult for more rural areas to get high quality teachers.

Why is a teacher right out of college going to want to move to a small town for 10-12 thousand less in pay, with fewer young singles to meet, less night life, etc?

So those towns have to hope an already experienced teacher moves to town because their spouse got a job there or something. 

[GringoSalado 1651]

54 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

 

but they'll sacrifice their cowboy town. is that something that they really want, in order to prosper?

Good points, I think your last sentence sort of says it all.

 

I'm from New Mexico, and in my former life operated a few ranches in the state, so I lived near (but not in) some smaller towns (Tularosa, T or C, Santa Rosa). Gorgeous scenery, but when you lower your eyes you see toothless meth heads. I would literally check your teeth before I hired you. The Chicken/Egg thing, all the folks who don't like meth moved to Albuquerque and got good jobs.

Traveling in those rural circles I've also spent time in places like Big Spring, San Angelo, and Milano. All those little Texas towns are 1,000% better off than the best of the shitty NM towns (like say, Silver City).

 

 

 

 

[Zavala 1384]

4 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Oversimplifying, but a lot of these places can hold tight to their biblical and political values and live isolated like the Amish, or they can loosen up and join 21st century commerce.   Legalize pot, (and booze in some places), allow gambling.  Be innovative.  

Vice isn't innovative, it's destructive and very short-term thinking. 

Loosening up laws won't somehow allow them to join "21st century commerce".

Renewable energy - simple solution. Lots of cheap land. 

[G650 14256]

4 hours ago, Parliament said:

They have families and good job offers (as good as in Fargo) but don't wanna give that up.  I don't understand that myself, but I know it's a huge problem.

How could you not understand that? Serious question.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

1 minute ago, Zavala said:

Vice isn't innovative, it's destructive and very short-term thinking. 

Loosening up laws won't somehow allow them to join "21st century commerce".

Renewable energy - simple solution. Lots of cheap land. 

I’m with you on the renewable energy.  But regarding the other, most young people, whether they engage in the vices or not, don’t want to live in an intolerant environment.  

[GringoSalado 1651]

Yeah the gambling thing. SE OK is a shithole, they have (Choctaw) gambling. Tularosa is a shithole, they have gambling (horse racing and Mescalero casinos).

 

edit: lost of ugly as shit windmills all over west texas. A huge solar install near Tularosa, also a very depressing eyesore.

Edited July 12, 2019 by GringoSalado

[SydneyCarton 48099]

 

6 minutes ago, Hawndoh said:

Plano also had the advantage of highly regarded schools which helps attract families with money.

Towns like Longview can't pay teachers as competitively as a Plano or Woodlands or Southlake or other wealthy suburb. Those kinds of districts soak up the talent which makes it very difficult for more rural areas to get high quality teachers.

Why is a teacher right out of college going to want to move to a small town for 10-12 thousand less in pay, with fewer young singles to meet, less night life, etc?

So those towns have to hope an already experienced teacher moves to town because their spouse got a job there or something. 

I'd love to see more numbers on the teacher thing. Because in places like HISD and I'd assume areas of Dallas, the school districts are a fucking joke and teachers are fleeing not just out of those jobs, but out of the profession entirely as a result. I could see a teaching position in smaller towns, particularly religious ones, as having a pretty attractive sales pitch to someone who viewed teaching as a calling, but doesn't want to deal with the horrid parents and lawsuit potential you see in major metro areas. I would assume the lower salaries are offset by the lower cost of living. My wife and I wonder out loud if the value of a high school education for our son would be much better at say, Wimberley, as opposed to one of the high schools in Houston (not Katy, Woodlands, etc). Our gut reaction is that Wimberley would likely be leaps and bounds better. 

[drt 638]

This is an interesting subject and not just in Texas.  I've spent a bit of time traveling to places like Davenport IA, Columbus IN, Peoria IL.  All of which have both white collar jobs in a small/medium size town (as well as blue collar), and all of the folks at those companies lament being able to attract talent for the white collar jobs.  The towns all have decent downtowns, with night life and restaurants that are better than average.  I grew up in a small town north of Plano so I could make it work in one of those towns, but after living in Austin I'd prefer a real city or the middle of nowhere.  Obviously I'm not unique, and would have to go through a divorce before my wife would let me take a job someplace like that.

[SydneyCarton 48099]

2 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

Yeah the gambling thing. SE OK is a shithole, they have (Choctaw) gambling. Tularosa is a shithole, they have gambling (horse racing and Mescalero casinos).

Well, before anyone gets ahead of themselves, is there Indian Reservation land anywhere around Longview? Because if there isn't, now you're talking massive legislative changes across the state. And if THAT were to happen, well, then why the shit would anyone build the Casino in Longview when they could start gambling up again in Galveston. 

[Zepol87 9185]

2 minutes ago, drt said:

This is an interesting subject and not just in Texas.  I've spent a bit of time traveling to places like Davenport IA, Columbus IN, Peoria IL.  All of which have both white collar jobs in a small/medium size town (as well as blue collar), and all of the folks at those companies lament being able to attract talent for the white collar jobs.  The towns all have decent downtowns, with night life and restaurants that are better than average.  I grew up in a small town north of Plano so I could make it work in one of those towns, but after living in Austin I'd prefer a real city or the middle of nowhere.  Obviously I'm not unique, and would have to go through a divorce before my wife would let me take a job someplace like that.

We just opened up 2 new offices in Davenport and Peoria. Need about 180 employees in each and can't fucking hire anyone worth a fuck in those places. 

[GringoSalado 1651]

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

Well, before anyone gets ahead of themselves, is there Indian Reservation land anywhere around Longview? Because if there isn't, now you're talking massive legislative changes across the state. And if THAT were to happen, well, then why the shit would anyone build the Casino in Longview when they could start gambling up again in Galveston. 

In some ways gambling is a zero sum attraction IMO. Unless you attract out of area money, you are just cannibalizing your entertainment dollars.

[ztejas 43425]

3 hours ago, bolverk said:

“we saw young professionals like my son, they graduate from college and where do they go? Megacenters. Austin, Dallas, San Francisco.”

Yeah, I'm sure San Francisco is just robbing Longview of all it's "talent". 

It's unfortunate for the smaller cities or poorer neighborhoods in Texas but at the end of the day it's just economics and quality of living. Longview is fine if you're there once a year for family and there is some decent stuff within driving distance, but Jesus I can't imagine living there. It's Longview. It blows. Of course there isn't job creation or retention of high-school/college grads. There is nothing to stay or come back for. I'd probably rather live in Amarillo and that's not saying much. 

[G650 14256]

5 minutes ago, drt said:

Davenport IA

John Deere IA more like it.

[SimonBolivar 10958]

The perception of Waco from the inside is that we're experiencing a bit of a renaissance in terms of economic growth. I would assume most of our peer mid-sized cities are enjoying quite a bit of growth especially on the I-35 corridor.

[Zavala 1384]

1 minute ago, GringoSalado said:

Yeah the gambling thing. SE OK is a shithole, they have (Choctaw) gambling. Tularosa is a shithole, they have gambling (horse racing and Mescalero casinos).

 

edit: lost of ugly as shit windmills all over west texas. A huge solar install near Tularosa, also a very depressing eyesore.

You being intolerant? Also, you forgot, DUDE WEED!

Those windmills are ugly, they also produce energy. If there was only an efficient (and clean) way to store it, to be used at peak demand, it would be really useful. I'm digging the newer solar panels, they are more efficient and cleaner than ever. They also require much less land, and stick out on the landscape less...

[Nice Guy Eddie 13512]

I don't think there is a simple solution for out of the way places that aren't already blessed being a destination spot.

Perhaps you can create a long term plan to initially entice smaller companies to relocate or give locals an incentive to start a new company. However putting your hopes of landing a major employer is a long shot.  And if you can convince many smaller companies to move or start, perhaps one of them will get scooped up by a larger employer and they will remain. Isn't that most likely how some of these towns formed in the first place. A smaller company was thriving and was eventually absorbed by a larger company who invested more into that location.

 

[Zavala 1384]

3 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Well, before anyone gets ahead of themselves, is there Indian Reservation land anywhere around Longview? Because if there isn't, now you're talking massive legislative changes across the state. And if THAT were to happen, well, then why the shit would anyone build the Casino in Longview when they could start gambling up again in Galveston. 

imagine the crown Fertitta could have with a golden nugget pleasure pier

[ztejas 43425]

56 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

nobody thought major companies would relocate to plano

Plano is still in the DFW metro. Longview is not. Dallas isn't exactly a tourist destination but there are almost countless things you can do in Dallas that you can't do within 50 miles of Longview. 

[SydneyCarton 48099]

4 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

In some ways gambling is a zero sum attraction IMO. Unless you attract out of area money, you are just cannibalizing your entertainment dollars.

I'm operating under the assumption that gambling will always attract out of area money. History supports this pretty strongly. You think people are visiting Oklahoma because, well, they ALSO have a casino but they're really there for the culture?

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

3 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

In some ways gambling is a zero sum attraction IMO. Unless you attract out of area money, you are just cannibalizing your entertainment dollars.

I don’t gamble, but in that area you’re losing a lot of revenue to Louisiana.  If you could get all the people who go to Louisiana to gamble to somehow stay there, it might be a net positive.  But instead they go there to spend money, then come back here and vote.