How to appeal to reluctant Trump voters?

[Mojo Hand 4580]

The top tier of Dem candidates can and will win with the people who are already disgusted with Trump.   Any effort to reach out to people who are still with Trump or even on the fence about Trump will backfire by alienating or demotivating the group already on the Dems's side.    And to the extent some Trump supporters are reachable, we're just as likely to pick them up without trying, merely by providing a good alternative and Trump continuing to fuck up almost everything he touches. 

No, the Dems shouldn't go around insulting Trump supporters.   They should speak positively about Americans as a whole, and when some Trump supporters migrate to that positive vision, great.   But don't moderate a single policy to make it more appealing to Trump voters as a specific group.   Don't waste a single breath talking about how some Trump supporters are really good people at heart who have been left behind.   Don't waste a single moment of time trying to persuade a Trump supporter into seeing the error of his or her ways.  I mean, you can do that at home with someone you know, but I mean campaign resources.

The only risk of the Dems losing in 2020, aside from Trump cheating, comes from losing turnout or voters from the people already against Trump. And the only way that happens is if Dems fall into the trap of trying to tap into Trump's support. 

[Blotto 23432]

12 hours ago, Continental Op said:

The Reluctant Trump Voter™ is unreachable.  Anyone who is actually going to try to get people out to the polls would probably be better served trying to get people who didn't vote in 2016 and find Trump disgusting to the polls.  

This a 100 times. If you are still a reluctant Trump backer at this point in time, after all the ridiculous, ignorant bullshit .....you're gonna pull the lever for Donny in 2020. 

40+% of eligible voters didn't participate in the 2016 election. That's more people than voted for Trump. Spend your efforts motivating those people that change is possible, rather than the fucking idiot Trump crowd. Most of those "reluctant" voters aren't that reluctant....they are just embarrassed.

[Larry T. Spider 1740]

Too many people are confusing everybody that pushed the trump button with trump supporters. Trump supporters are people that know what is going on, like it, and will vote trump no matter what he does. They are hopeless, not just for this election, but likely forever. They are a huge challenge that our country will have to overcome to be successful.

There are also people that decided in the last few days before the election that are typically low information voters. They decide based on superficial information and likely couldn’t outline the policy positions of either candidate. These people decide to vote for trump because he’s “an outsider” or “he seems tough”. They probably can’t even name a single democrat in the primary right now.

The second group is very winnable and is large enough that they should be written off completely. You definitely don’t change policy positions for them and they wouldn’t even know if you did. But, this is a large enough group that they are worth engaging with. 

It’s not like it’s hard to tell the difference between the two. When you talk to them, if they defend trump AT ALL, they are lost and you should move on. But, I have found that many of them won’t, simply because they are so uninformed that they can’t. They are open to new information.

[Zavala 1384]

Maybe try calling them racist and calling Trump racist. Worked for HillDawg!

[David Dennison 18655]

2 minutes ago, Zavala said:

Maybe try calling them racist and calling Trump racist. Worked for HillDawg!

Hillary can't hurt you anymore.

[Zavala 1384]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Hillary can't hurt you anymore.

Biden got me spooked! If only he could get through a few of the sentences in his canned speeches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd7uUYTP9jM

 

[retread 2951]

13 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Hillary can't hurt you anymore.

Show me on the doll where Hillary touched you.

[tantric superman 4667]

19 minutes ago, Larry T. Spider said:

There are also people that decided in the last few days before the election that are typically low information voters. They decide based on superficial information and likely couldn’t outline the policy positions of either candidate. These people decide to vote for trump because he’s “an outsider” or “he seems tough”. They probably can’t even name a single democrat in the primary right now.

If they haven't developed a distaste for Trump by now, then I think anything other than ignoring them in your approach to winning is overthinking.

All of the Trump voters I know still seem to be very low information voters and I'm not sure any of them are interested in changing that.

That doesn't mean you don't have a sound message and you win all the voters you can.  It does mean that you likely aren't going to win by a Trump voter by pushing intelligence, smart policy, or ethical conduct.  Which are the three things I want in a candidate.

[hobbes2702 12805]

22 minutes ago, Zavala said:

Maybe try calling them racist and calling Trump racist. Worked for HillDawg!

They don’t like honesty so I dunno if that will work.

[Celery Man 20885]

Those convinced against their will

are pussy fucking snowflakes still

[Larry T. Spider 1740]

2 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

If they haven't developed a distaste for Trump by now, then I think anything other than ignoring them in your approach to winning is overthinking.

All of the Trump voters I know still seem to be very low information voters and I'm not sure any of them are interested in changing that.

That doesn't mean you don't have a sound message and you win all the voters you can.  It does mean that you likely aren't going to win by a Trump voter by pushing intelligence, smart policy, or ethical conduct.  Which are the three things I want in a candidate.

For many, they haven’t developed a distaste because they are watching the Kardashians. They decided to push the trump button on a whim and have little emotional connection to the guy. If they can defend him at all, they have an emotional connection that you aren’t going to break.

The reason they are worth engaging is because they are voters. Relying on non-voters is inherently risky as very few politicians have been able to pull it off. It’s easy to see that 40% on the sidelines and think that they are easy targets. They are anything but. It takes an intese ground game months in advance to get them registered. Then you have to follow up religiously to get them to the polls. In many cases you have to drive them yourself. 

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

2 hours ago, 6th Street said:

Sadly this is mostly true. 

The best outcome is to motivate the non-voters from 2016 to come to the polls. There is a large contingent of Obama voters that disliked both Hillary and Trump and just stayed home. Get some of these fools out to vote in 2020 and the 3 states that matter will turn. 

There’s a difference between that’s all you need in 2020 and that’s all you need in the future. Maybe you are just waiting for Texas to turn blue and assuming every president will be a democrat after that happens. 

But there should be some amount of Romney voters that wouldn’t vote for trump or Hillary, but will go back to the R party if they manage to run a sane person in 2024. They might be ready to take a real look at their options if there’s no centrist candidate, and maybe educate themselves on the actual D party platform as well as candidates and their individual platforms. 

You are already writing off/ignoring tens of millions, why write off more?

do you only care about winning elections, or do you also care about how Americans think in general?  What if you can shift the entire spectrum a little to the left and turn what is now the mainstream right into the fringe right?  Is there no value in that?

so yeah, don’t change policy for a group of people. That’s bullshit under any circumstance. Be for what you are for and against what you are against. Try to educate those that aren’t with you yet but are willing to listen and learn. 

The trump supporter group is fighting for those people and you know the tactics involved. 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Pato del Muerto

[Zavala 1384]

11 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

There’s a difference between that’s all you need in 2020 and that’s all you need in the future. Maybe you are just waiting for Texas to turn blue and assuming every president will be a democrat after that happens. 

But there should be some amount of Romney voters that wouldn’t vote for trump or Hillary, but will go back to the R party if they manage to run a sane person in 2024. They might be ready to take a real look at their options if there’s no centrist candidate, and maybe educate themselves on the actual D party platform as well as candidates and their individual platforms. 

You are already writing off/ignoring tens of millions, why write off more?

do you only care about winning elections, or do you also care about how Americans think in general?  What if you can shift the entire spectrum a little to the left and turn what is now the mainstream right into the fringe right?  Is there no value in that?

Trying to do this is what is causing liberals to fail. You end up repulsing way more centrists than convincing. 

But by all means, let Cenk Uygur take over the Democratic party completely and see what happens.  

Basically, when you start thinking the far left ideas are mainstream, you just fuck up your perspective so bad that you end up alienating those in the middle. Most people either don't give a fuck or consider themselves in the middle btw.

https://youtu.be/NSmLr_mq4S4?t=1821

 

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Zavala

[relapse98 634]

16 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

If you call me a deplorable just one more time I’m gonna vote for trump again!!!! I’ll show all of you!!!! Libs!!!! Ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

But that's how they are. They think emotionally and not logically. You say something about Trump, they feel it personally. I don't get it either.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

48 minutes ago, Larry T. Spider said:

For many, they haven’t developed a distaste because they are watching the Kardashians. They decided to push the trump button on a whim and have little emotional connection to the guy. If they can defend him at all, they have an emotional connection that you aren’t going to break.

The reason they are worth engaging is because they are voters. Relying on non-voters is inherently risky as very few politicians have been able to pull it off. It’s easy to see that 40% on the sidelines and think that they are easy targets. They are anything but. It takes an intese ground game months in advance to get them registered. Then you have to follow up religiously to get them to the polls. In many cases you have to drive them yourself. 

Dems don't have to rely on non-voters.   They are way ahead among voters and will stay that way as long as they don't drop the ball by chasing windmills.   And a strategy that focuses on them is mutually reinforcing with turning out less reliable voters, like young people, who also hate Trump.   Overall it is a winning strategy. 

The totally disengaged voters who still don't get that Trump is an abomination by now are just irrational actors who shouldn't be the basis for campaign strategy.   Resources are zero-sum:   focusing on uniformed coin-flip voters will take away from a more productive focus elsewhere.   And it's not clear that it will do any good; if they don't get it by now, why do you think more engagement will stop them from making an essentially random decision in 2020 anyway?   

[Brisketexan 104597]

18 minutes ago, Zavala said:

Trying to do this is what is causing liberals to fail. You end up repulsing way more centrists than convincing. 

But by all means, let Cenk Uygur take over the Democratic party completely and see what happens.  

Basically, when you start thinking the far left ideas are mainstream, you just fuck up your perspective so bad that you end up alienating those in the middle. Most people either don't give a fuck or consider themselves in the middle btw.

https://youtu.be/NSmLr_mq4S4?t=1821

 

 

The problem is that Fox News has done an EXCELLENT job of characterizing mainstream ideas as "OMG FAR LEFT SOCIALISM!"  Let's look at healthcare, for example.  Anything that would increase public/government involvement responsibility is COMMUNISM FROM THE PITS OF LEFTIST HELL!  The problem is....it's actually a mainstream idea.

Quote

• Half of the public disapproves of the recent decision in Texas v. United States, in which a federal judge ruled that the 2010 Affordable Care Act (ACA) is unconstitutional and should not be in effect. While the judge’s ruling is broader than eliminating the ACA’s protections for people with pre-existing conditions, this particular issue continues to resonate with the public. Continuing the ACA’s protections for people with pre-existing conditions ranks among the public’s top health care priorities for the new Congress, along with lowering prescription drug costs.
• This month’s KFF Health Tracking Poll continues to find majority support (driven by Democrats and independents) for the federal government doing more to help provide health insurance for more Americans. One way for lawmakers to expand coverage is by broadening the role of public programs. Nearly six in ten (56 percent) favor a national Medicare-for-all plan, but overall net favorability towards such a plan ranges as high as +45 and as low as -44 after people hear common arguments about this proposal.
• Larger majorities of the public favor more incremental changes to the health care system such as a Medicare buy-in plan for adults between the ages of 50 and 64 (77 percent), a Medicaid buy-in plan for individuals who don’t receive health coverage through their employer (75 percent), and an optional program similar to Medicare for those who want it (74 percent). Both the Medicare buy-in plan and Medicaid buy-in plan also garner majority support from Republicans (69 percent and 64 percent­).

These are not fringe ideas.  They range from slim majority support to 3/4 of voters supporting them.  That's the opposite of "fringe.'

But it doesn't matter.  Anything that doesn't agree with Trump is FAR LEFT SOCIALISM THAT HATES AMERICA.  It's that simple.  And that's why attempting to communicate with anyone who supports Trump even slightly is wasted time.

Trump's strategy is to 1) motivate his base for 100% turnout, and 2) cooperate with and support voter suppression efforts.  That's it.  And it's a good strategy.

The Dems should focus on motivating 100% of their voters to show up.  Any Trump supporter who suddenly wakes up and realizes they've been had, great, change your vote.  But it's a low-reward effort to try to find the rational Trump voter.

[Larry T. Spider 1740]

10 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Dems don't have to rely on non-voters.   They are way ahead among voters and will stay that way as long as they don't drop the ball by chasing windmills.   And a strategy that focuses on them is mutually reinforcing with turning out less reliable voters, like young people, who also hate Trump.   Overall it is a winning strategy. 

The totally disengaged voters who still don't get that Trump is an abomination by now are just irrational actors who shouldn't be the basis for campaign strategy.   Resources are zero-sum:   focusing on uniformed coin-flip voters will take away from a more productive focus elsewhere.   And it's not clear that it will do any good; if they don't get it by now, why do you think more engagement will stop them from making an essentially random decision in 2020 anyway?   

I don’t think we need them to win and I wouldn’t waste of lot of resources on them. My response is mainly to the people that think it’s a winning strategy to go after people that never vote. It’s a great way to end up disappointed on Election Day when they do what they always do....sit it out. 

Making sure that you have a clear message to democrat and independent voters with a solid ground game is the most sure fire strategy out there. Our only difference is that I still consider some of the trump voters (not supporters) in the independent category.

[Js1 85104]

27 minutes ago, relapse98 said:

But that's how they are. They think emotionally and not logically. You say something about Trump, they feel it personally. I don't get it either.

Because they have the emotional IQ of a 14 year old teen girl (CALM DOWN ROY MOORE!) and the IQ of the average NFL fan - TEAM! TEAM! TEAM! 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

1 hour ago, Larry T. Spider said:

Too many people are confusing everybody that pushed the trump button with trump supporters. Trump supporters are people that know what is going on, like it, and will vote trump no matter what he does. They are hopeless, not just for this election, but likely forever. They are a huge challenge that our country will have to overcome to be successful.

There are also people that decided in the last few days before the election that are typically low information voters. They decide based on superficial information and likely couldn’t outline the policy positions of either candidate. These people decide to vote for trump because he’s “an outsider” or “he seems tough”. They probably can’t even name a single democrat in the primary right now.

The second group is very winnable and is large enough that they should be written off completely. You definitely don’t change policy positions for them and they wouldn’t even know if you did. But, this is a large enough group that they are worth engaging with. 

It’s not like it’s hard to tell the difference between the two. When you talk to them, if they defend trump AT ALL, they are lost and you should move on. But, I have found that many of them won’t, simply because they are so uninformed that they can’t. They are open to new information.

This is pretty much what I’m getting at.  I think a false assumption we often make is that these low information fence sitting voters are moderate/centrists.  They’re just as likely to have no ideology at all and will vote for the candidate that most excites them in the moment. 

[Brisketexan 104597]

4 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

This is pretty much what I’m getting at.  I think a false assumption we often make is that these low information fence sitting voters are moderate/centrists.  They’re just as likely to have no ideology at all and will vote for the candidate that most excites them in the moment. 

And there's no possible way for any sane candidate to elicit more excitement than a demented circus clown who randomly shoots people and laughs about it.  Seriously, if that's the criterion for these folks' vote....forget about 'em.  They're voting for Trump.  He's the greatest sideshow freak the political world has ever seen, and you can't beat him at his game.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

34 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The Dems should focus on motivating 100% of their voters to show up.  Any Trump supporter who suddenly wakes up and realizes they've been had, great, change your vote.  But it's a low-reward effort to try to find the rational Trump voter.

We have neglected the topic of the thread.  I’m looking for messages a candidate can use that not only turns out the democratic base but also appeals the folks outside the base.  

I framed the topic of this thread poorly by mentioning Trump.  It should have been, “How to expand the democratic base without compromising to the right?”

Edited July 17, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Larry T. Spider 1740]

I think Hugo and Brisket are both correct here. Massive GOTV for Dems and left of center moderates is the only way. 

[hayden_horn 11360]

this thread kind of reminds me of this:

 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

1 hour ago, Zavala said:

Maybe try calling them racist and calling Trump racist. Worked for HillDawg!

You are really gonna come in here and spout this crap now? You cannot pretend that Trump is not a racist, or that a huge part of his core of support comes directly from racism.

HillDawg sucked as a candidate and she and her husband are both trash people but she was fucking right about at least one thing, and that is that the likes of you and your fellow Trump supporters are, in fact, deplorable. 

Maybe that's not the right word. How about hateful, or ignorant, or gullible, to go through a few adjectives.

In the category of nouns we have rubes, swine, trash, and Nazis. 

As of right now, that is what any supporter of Donald Trump is.

Get to fucking fuck with your goddamn pussyass whining about how Hillary was so mean to you.

[Ghost of Shag 2581]

I'll bite. 

I'm a Trump voter, not a Trump supporter.  I look back on that vote as a personal failure, and won't be doing it again.  Though I'm conservative, I feel the damage being done to whatever unity we had in this country is of greater concern than some of the platforms I would hold to.  I didn't realize the extent, at the time, of the dumpster that is Trump's character.  I considered Hillary's character to be equally detestable, if less overt.  I was sick of the same old politicians running the show.  

You can pencil me in with the racists, the rednecks, and assume I'm voting the same come 2020, as some of you are prone to do.  But I won't be, and I don't know who I'll be voting for.  It seems apparent that I'll be voting for a Democratic president for the first time in my life, and I'm not sure which one is most appealing as of yet.

I rarely post on this board because it's full of hatred, assumption, and defining people on both sides with extremes.  But guys like Hugo are more right than you want to believe.  There are going to be a lot of people like me come 2020.

[Brisketexan 104597]

2 minutes ago, Larry T. Spider said:

I think Hugo and Brisket are both correct here. Massive GOTV for Dems and left of center moderates is the only way. 

Again, you rely on the fallacy that there are any real moderates left.  The poltics of division have passed the point of no-return, and the damage is all but complete.

Quote

Turning and turning in the widening gyre   

The falcon cannot hear the falconer;

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere   

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all conviction, while the worst   

Are full of passionate intensity.

The center is dead.  There is only Trumpism, and anti-Trumpism.

[Zavala 1384]

1 minute ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

You are really gonna come in here and spout this crap now? You cannot pretend that Trump is not a racist, or that a huge part of his core of support comes directly from racism.

HillDawg sucked as a candidate and she and her husband are both trash people but she was fucking right about at least one thing, and that is that the likes of you and your fellow Trump supporters are, in fact, deplorable. 

Maybe that's not the right word. How about hateful, or ignorant, or gullible, to go through a few adjectives.

In the category of nouns we have rubes, swine, trash, and Nazis. 

As of right now, that is what any supporter of Donald Trump is.

Get to fucking fuck with your goddamn pussyass whining about how Hillary was so mean to you.

Wow you swayed me I'm a Shill4Hill now!

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

Just now, Zavala said:

Wow you swayed me I'm a Shill4Hill now!

I will now add "regarded" to the list of words to describe your like. 

Somehow you managed to ignore the part where I trashed Hillary as both a candidate and a person. 

I get it. You and tens of millions of Americans are hateful bigots. In the immortal words of Mack Brown, "and that's fair." 

The rest of us are just gonna have to find a way to work around, or through you. Y'all are the fucking very definition of old and in the way.

[SubliminalHorn 6674]

6 minutes ago, Zavala said:

Wow you swayed me I'm a Shill4Hill now!

You really can’t get pat her, can you? It’s ok. Her political career is over. 

[ChiTownDoc 21098]

I love Zavala telling us all what to do to cater to moderates.  LOL

He might as well have the stars and bars in his av...

[Larry T. Spider 1740]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Again, you rely on the fallacy that there are any real moderates left.  The poltics of division have passed the point of no-return, and the damage is all but complete.

The center is dead.  There is only Trumpism, and anti-Trumpism.

I don’t think an informed center exists. If you have been paying attention at all you are clearly going to come down on one side or the other. I think this is more true now than ever before. 

I do think there is a group of low information undecided voters out there. “Center” would imply they are liberal on some issues and conservative on others. I don’t think that label really fits this group because they haven’t given it enough thought. They don’t watch political shows, just kardashians and tmz. I find that they are easily swayed by personal interactions because they don’t have set beliefs that you have to overcome. They also don’t have a lot of competing sources of information.

I want to be clear that I don’t think you change policy positions based on them or devote a lot of campaign resources to them. They aren’t paying attention and it would be a waste. However, I do feel they are worth a quick personal conversation.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

10 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

but she was fucking right about at least one thing, and that is that the likes of you and your fellow Trump supporters are, in fact, deplorable. 

Actually, everything Hillary said about Trump and his supporters during the campaign was spot fucking on.

Everything.

She just didn’t have the credibility needed for it to resonate.

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

4 minutes ago, Larry T. Spider said:

I don’t think an informed center exists. If you have been paying attention at all you are clearly going to come down on one side or the other. I think this is more true now than ever before. 

It doesn't exist with respect to party right now, but it does with respect to policy.

[Brisketexan 104597]

4 minutes ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

It doesn't exist with respect to party right now, but it does with respect to policy.

But policy doesn't matter.

For example, there are clearly people "in the middle" who favor additional gov't involvement in healthcare (see the 75% number I posted).  BUT....when Fox News and Trump brand such a proposal as "PURE SOCIALISM, AND IT PROBABLY CAME FROM ISIS," 1/3 of that 75% will oppose the proposal with religious fervor.  Policy doesn't matter when it comes to votes.  Soundbites and team do.  That's it.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

17 hours ago, Incredulity said:

You know what people LOVE?  Some good old condescending self-righteousness.  That shit sells itself.

SEE: post #35.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Onboard 2.0

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

11 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

SEE: post #35.

remember:  fuck your feelings.

[Biff Tannen 45492]

41 minutes ago, Ghost of Shag said:

I'll bite. 

I'm a Trump voter, not a Trump supporter.  I look back on that vote as a personal failure, and won't be doing it again.  Though I'm conservative, I feel the damage being done to whatever unity we had in this country is of greater concern than some of the platforms I would hold to.  I didn't realize the extent, at the time, of the dumpster that is Trump's character.  I considered Hillary's character to be equally detestable, if less overt.  I was sick of the same old politicians running the show.  

You can pencil me in with the racists, the rednecks, and assume I'm voting the same come 2020, as some of you are prone to do.  But I won't be, and I don't know who I'll be voting for.  It seems apparent that I'll be voting for a Democratic president for the first time in my life, and I'm not sure which one is most appealing as of yet.

I rarely post on this board because it's full of hatred, assumption, and defining people on both sides with extremes.  But guys like Hugo are more right than you want to believe.  There are going to be a lot of people like me come 2020.

This is the kind of voter that I have no problem with.  You recognize that you made a wrong decision and still have a rational brain with which to correct that decision.  These are seemingly few and far between.  Good on you.

I have some family members that claim they are this way, but they also preface that statement with "but it depends on who the Dems put up".  Nope, that right there is a tell.

[Brisketexan 104597]

5 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

"but it depends on who the Dems put up".  Nope, that right there is a tell.

100%.  It doesn't matter.  Whoever they put up, it will be a "CRAZY COMMIE OPEN BORDERS SOCIALIST" (the characterization will echo an actual Hannity headline).  It really doesn't matter.  The Dems could run the resurrected Ronald Reagan, and he'd be a crazy commie open borders socialist.

[hayden_horn 11360]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

100%.  It doesn't matter.  Whoever they put up, it will be a "CRAZY COMMIE OPEN BORDERS SOCIALIST" (the characterization will echo an actual Hannity headline).  It really doesn't matter.  The Dems could run the resurrected Ronald Reagan, and he'd be a crazy commie open borders socialist.

yes, this last part is true. no way old ronnie wins in today's republican party.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

14 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

SEE: post #35.

So he calls you a snowflake and now you're doubling down on being one?

If you're trying to use random internet posters as a justification for voting for Trump, you're already too far gone. Just be honest with yourself instead. You love Trump's desired policies and goals.  Maybe you wish he wasn't as stupid as he is, but that's a minor thing.  Let the hate consume you. Natalie Portman not fucking you is just an excuse. You wanted to kill those sand people so you did. Man up and take responsibility for your own actions. Put the Vader helmet on and stand next to your emperor like a man. No excuses. 

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

4 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Natalie Portman not fucking you is just an excuse.

tbf it's a pretty good reason to be mad

[Js1 85104]

20 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I have some family members that claim they are this way, but they also preface that statement with "but it depends on who the Dems put up".  Nope, that right there is a tell.

Correct.  If you don't like Trump (whether in 2016 or now), you vote for the candidate with the best chance of keeping him from being president on Jan 21, 2021.  And that candidate is the Democrat.

Those voters will vote for Trump and then follow up with "BUT if you had chosen Bernie/Biden/Warren/Kamala/Pete/Beto, THEN I would have voted for the Democrats."

Not how it works.  If your vote for the Democrats has a precondition on it (it can't be Bernie/Harris/Biden/Pete/etc.), then you aren't serious about it.  Their best shot is to suck it up, vote for the Democrat, and then regroup in 2024.   We need you for one fucking day in 2020.  Get over it.  No one is asking you to wear a sign that says "I VOTED FOR A DEMOCRAT" and join ANTIFA and start burning flags.  

Edited July 17, 2019 by Js1

[Larry T. Spider 1740]

2 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Correct.  If you don't like Trump (whether in 2016 or now), you vote for the candidate with the best chance of keeping him from being president on Jan 21, 2021.  And that candidate is the Democrat.

Those voters will vote for Trump and then follow up with "BUT if you had chosen Bernie/Biden/Warren/Kamala/Pete/Beto, THEN I would have voted for the Democrats."

Not how it works.  If your vote for the Democrats has a precondition on it (it can't be Bernie/Harris/Biden/Pete/etc.), then you aren't serious about it.  Their best shot is to suck it up, vote for the Democrat, and then regroup in 2024.   We need you for one fucking day in 2020.  Get over it.  No one is asking you to wear a sign that says "I VOTED FOR A DEMOCRAT" and join ANTIFA and start burning flags.  

But the Supreme Court....

[Js1 85104]

2 minutes ago, Larry T. Spider said:

But the Supreme Court....

YES BUT...

If RBG dies or retires under a Democratic President, the SCOTUS composition stays the same.  There's no swing vote about to retire or die.   They keep their god damn conservative majority. 

And let's be honest here, the odds of a Dem President and Dem Senate is...…..minimal.  It MIGHT be 50-50 with the VP but even then, you have to keep Senators like Manchin on your side.  And let's not even go through the process of vacancies and special elections from the President/VP and new cabinet members.  The first SCOTUS nominee for President Harris/Warren/Pete/Bernie is going to be insanely middle of the road. 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Js1

[Biff Tannen 45492]

6 minutes ago, Js1 said:

No one is asking you to wear a sign that says "I VOTED FOR A DEMOCRAT" and join ANTIFA and start burning flags.  

That's exactly what they WANT you to think!  

[Brisketexan 104597]

Just now, Js1 said:

The first SCOTUS nominee for President Harris/Warren/Pete/Bernie would never be seated.  Ever.

FIF McConnell accuracy.

[Js1 85104]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

FIF McConnell accuracy.

Yes. But I was under the assumption of 50-50 with the VP.   It would go to a vote and be so insanely middle of the road because you can't afford to lose a single Senator to the vote.  And even the odds of 50-50 is slim. 

[thrillhammer 683]

4 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Correct.  If you don't like Trump (whether in 2016 or now), you vote for the candidate with the best chance of keeping him from being president on Jan 21, 2021.  And that candidate is the Democrat.

Those voters will vote for Trump and then follow up with "BUT if you had chosen Bernie/Biden/Warren/Kamala/Pete/Beto, THEN I would have voted for the Democrats."

Not how it works.  If your vote for the Democrats has a precondition on it (it can't be Bernie/Harris/Biden/Pete/etc.), then you aren't serious about it.  Their best shot is to suck it up, vote for the Democrat, and then regroup in 2024.   We need you for one fucking day in 2020.  Get over it.  No one is asking you to wear a sign that says "I VOTED FOR A DEMOCRAT" and join ANTIFA and start burning flags.  

i'm a huge fan of washington journal on cspan.  perfect sociology study on politics and our society.  one thing i've noticed is how many callers that claim to be independent are very conservative.   you can tell in the first couple of sentences these people don't have a democrat bone in their body.  one guy this week, "and now from a caller on our independent line", claimed that kamala harris wasn't black.   if 90% of the "independents" are conservatives, maybe they are just embarrassed for trump and ashamed to admit they are republicans?

[Mojo Hand 4580]

51 minutes ago, Ghost of Shag said:

I'll bite. 

I'm a Trump voter, not a Trump supporter.  I look back on that vote as a personal failure, and won't be doing it again.  Though I'm conservative, I feel the damage being done to whatever unity we had in this country is of greater concern than some of the platforms I would hold to.  I didn't realize the extent, at the time, of the dumpster that is Trump's character.  I considered Hillary's character to be equally detestable, if less overt.  I was sick of the same old politicians running the show.  

You can pencil me in with the racists, the rednecks, and assume I'm voting the same come 2020, as some of you are prone to do.  But I won't be, and I don't know who I'll be voting for.  It seems apparent that I'll be voting for a Democratic president for the first time in my life, and I'm not sure which one is most appealing as of yet.

I rarely post on this board because it's full of hatred, assumption, and defining people on both sides with extremes.  But guys like Hugo are more right than you want to believe.  There are going to be a lot of people like me come 2020.

When most of us talk about writing off Trump supporters, we typically mean people who still support him today, not Trump voters like you who realize they made a mistake in 2016.

As I see it, your category breaks down into (1) people who will definitely vote Dem one time only in 2020 to save the country, regardless of policy, and (2) people who will definitely not vote for Trump, but will either go third party or stay home unless there is a Dem they can swallow from a policy standpoint. 

There are two general strategies for group 2:   move them toward us by persuading them to join group 1, or move us toward them by moderating policy to get them to vote D.   

I think the first strategy is worthwhile.  The only practical alternative to Trump will be a Democrat.   The problems with Trump go beyond partisan policy differences.  Some of group 2 can be persuaded to hold their nose and vote D out of patriotism and moral duty.

I think the second strategy is self-destructive.   Moderating policy to get disenchanted conservative Trump voters will alienate voters on the left and in the working class.   And any success will be short-lived:  Biden will be light-years better than Trump, but IMO Trumpism will remain and return if the Dems don't provide a principled progressive alternative. 

Our country doesn't need (and can't survive) a moderate Dem party and a proto-fascist Republican party.  What we need is a progressive Dem party and a conservative Republican party (and maybe a moderate third party, which is a separate discussion).   IMO it was the moderation of the Dem party that led to this mess, with right-wing populism filling the void left vacant by Dems trying to appeal to voters in the ideological middle.   And it will be a return to progressivism that both gets our country back on track and forces the GOP to fix itself to compete. 

[Larry T. Spider 1740]

2 minutes ago, thrillhammer said:

i'm a huge fan of washington journal on cspan.  perfect sociology study on politics and our society.  one thing i've noticed is how many callers that claim to be independent are very conservative.   you can tell in the first couple of sentences these people don't have a democrat bone in their body.  one guy this week, "and now from a caller on our independent line", claimed that kamala harris wasn't black.   if 90% of the "independents" are conservatives, maybe they are just embarrassed for trump and ashamed to admit they are republicans?

Same reason you have the Bradley effect in polls, especially ones regarding trump. People know they should be ashamed but still have to go hit that R straight ticket button every time. With all the vile shit that trump has said and done, I will not be trusting the polls as much as usual this time around.