What's the Matter with Oklahoma?

[Okie State 3788]

A lot is wrong with Oklahoma right now. It wasn't this bad when I was a kid and my hometown was actually a great place to grow up. Or maybe I was just naive.

[kopp0e 1135]

On 4/2/2018 at 3:44 PM, GSU&UT said:

Definitely true, but Charter Schools/vouchers will still need a funded education system though right? I just read that this is the first time there has been a tax increase passed in 28 years.

Even with the increase, how would legislation feel if asking for an increase in funding to repair facilities around the state capital, only to get 60% of the funding from voters... 

The state of Oklahoma needs to do better than what has been done towards public education in the state over the last quarter century... One of the many reasons Texas is better...

[Francisco 2.0 32346]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/oklahoma-teachers-fight-for-increased-funding-were-doing-this-for-our-kids/

Quote

For the second day, thousands of Oklahoma teachers marched at the state capitol. Inside the rotunda, educators, and hundreds of their students demanded an increase in school funding. 

On Tuesday, Oklahoma Governor Mary Fallin signed a bill giving teacher-support staff, like teachers' aides and janitors, a $1,250 raise. Last week, she signed a measure that gave teachers a $6,000 pay raise, but only added an additional $50 million to school funding. Teachers were asking for $200 million more.

"Teachers want more," Fallin said. "But it's kind of like a teenager wanting a better car."

 

[Francisco 2.0 32346]

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/teacherwalkout/go-ahead-be-pissed-at-me-oklahoma-lawmaker-upset-at/article_b2ad7075-7b66-50f0-8c1f-a42587e8b739.html

 

Quote

As the statewide teacher walkout entered its second day, some lawmakers are criticizing the behavior of those protesting at the Capitol.

Rep. Josh Cockroft, trying to move on with business in the House of Representatives, threatened to clear the gallery Tuesday after protesters started booing.

Rep. Kevin McDugle, R-Broken Arrow, took to Facebook Live with his frustrations on Tuesday. He has since deleted the post.

Quote

McDugle — who represents Broken Arrow, Coweta, Fair Oaks, Okay, Porter, Redbird, Tullahassee and Wagoner — said he voted for each funding measure to support education last year, but what he's seen during the walkout has changed his mind.

"I'm not voting for another stinking measure when they're acting the way they're acting," he said on Facebook Live.

McDugle said he didn't think teachers were setting a good example for students.

 

"You're losing support of people who supported you all year long," he said. "Now you're going to come here and act like this after you got a raise?"

"Go ahead, be pissed at me if you want to," he concluded.

 

[CooterBrown 17918]

A lot is wrong with Oklahoma right now. It wasn't this bad when I was a kid and my hometown was actually a great place to grow up. Or maybe I was just naive.

You grew up. I thought my hometown in south Texas was fantastic. Then I went to college and realized it was an utter shithole.

[Okie State 3788]

You grew up. I thought my hometown in south Texas was fantastic. Then I went to college and realized it was an utter shithole.

Agreed. Although sitting in bumper to bumper traffic right now I have to say this place fucking sucks sometimes too.

[GSU&UT 1798]

 

[atomheartbevo 89457]

22 hours ago, Okie State said:

A lot is wrong with Oklahoma right now. It wasn't this bad when I was a kid and my hometown was actually a great place to grow up. Or maybe I was just naive.

I have plenty of relatives there, including a teacher (and her husband does maintenance for her district). 

Republicans are being fucking idiots.  They are trying to turn this back on evil public schools and teachers, not realizing how deeply ingrained these schools are in the local communities, particularly the rural areas.

 You get in these rural areas, and people on the school boards are very well known and usually local leaders. The teachers, custodians, etc, are almost all locals. The Republican politicians want to pull this “librool schools” bullshit when a lot of those locals know otherwise. They see the teachers and staff in church, they work with their spouses or hire their kids or whatever, etc. 

Oklahoma recently had a Democrat Governor (2003-2011), a Democrat-led Senate in 2005, and a Democrat-led House in 2003.  That’s not that long ago for a state that is one of the reddest in the union. 

Republicans are playing some stupid fucking games with this.  All politics is ultimately local in these situations.  

[Aqua Buddha 14525]

37 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I have plenty of relatives there, including a teacher (and her husband does maintenance for her district). 

Republicans are being fucking idiots.  They are trying to turn this back on evil public schools and teachers, not realizing how deeply ingrained these schools are in the local communities, particularly the rural areas.

 You get in these rural areas, and people on the school boards are very well known and usually local leaders. The teachers, custodians, etc, are almost all locals. The Republican politicians want to pull this “librool schools” bullshit when a lot of those locals know otherwise. They see the teachers and staff in church, they work with their spouses or hire their kids or whatever, etc. 

Oklahoma recently had a Democrat Governor (2003-2011), a Democrat-led Senate in 2005, and a Democrat-led House in 2003.  That’s not that long ago for a state that is one of the reddest in the union. 

Republicans are playing some stupid fucking games with this.  All politics is ultimately local in these situations.  

You can substitute "oil industry" for "Republicans" as they're basically one and the same there.  

Your point is spot on, though.  Oil industry is being stupid here.  They're refusing to give even an inch on taxes despite the public being overwhelmingly in support of teacher.  Oil runs the risk of getting rolled next election and losing everything.  Easy solution now would be for them to give up half and everybody wins.

Pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered.

[atomheartbevo 89457]

36 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

You can substitute "oil industry" for "Republicans" as they're basically one and the same there.  

Your point is spot on, though.  Oil industry is being stupid here.  They're refusing to give even an inch on taxes despite the public being overwhelmingly in support of teacher.  Oil runs the risk of getting rolled next election and losing everything.  Easy solution now would be for them to give up half and everybody wins.

Pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered.

Oil industry in Oklahoma - it's like gun control in a way - give up a little now to try and fix things/correct the course, or do nothing and then something else bad happens, and somebody will then come along and take a whole lot, all the while placing the blame on you.

And unfortunately for the oil industry (and Republicans) in Oklahoma, unlike Texas, Oklahoma doesn't have a large enough and diverse enough economy to cover this up.  People in Oklahoma know what was done for the O&G industry, while watching the schools go downhill at the same time.

And on top of all of that, we now have Trump's little trade war.  Oklahoma has manufacturing and aerospace industries that could very well be hurt, and those are well-paying jobs (compared to many other jobs in Oklahoma).  That's not getting into the farmers getting screwed over hard.

Mix education into that - many rural Oklahomans want decent schools, because they want their kids to do better, and they've watched way too many out-of-staters coming in for the better jobs.

Too many of the politicians are older and/or not thinking long-term - they are thinking an election or two from now, rather than 20 years from now, and just wanting to satisfy their masters.

[Brisketexan 104653]

Just now, atomheartbevo said:

Oil industry in Oklahoma - it's like gun control in a way - give up a little now to try and fix things/correct the course, or do nothing and then something else bad happens, and somebody will then come along and take a whole lot, all the while placing the blame on you.

And unfortunately for the oil industry (and Republicans) in Oklahoma, unlike Texas, Oklahoma doesn't have a large enough and diverse enough economy to cover this up.  People in Oklahoma know what was done for the O&G industry, while watching the schools go downhill at the same time.

And on top of all of that, we now have Trump's little trade war.  Oklahoma has manufacturing and aerospace industries that could very well be hurt, and those are well-paying jobs (compared to many other jobs in Oklahoma).  That's not getting into the farmers getting screwed over hard.

Mix education into that - many rural Oklahomans want decent schools, because they want their kids to do better, and they've watched way too many out-of-staters coming in for the better jobs.

Too many of the politicians are older and/or not thinking long-term - they are thinking an election or two from now, rather than 20 years from now, and just wanting to satisfy their masters.

Your last sentence summarizes our entire political thinking in this country.  The only thing that matters is being re-elected TOMORROW, not what happens in a decade.  We are doing the equivalent of eating our seed stock -- nifty if you want lots of bread today, shitty if you want to have crops next growing season.  Zero long-term thinking or deferred gratification or sacrifice.

['stache 21777]

The National Fucking Review is now telling Okie Republicans that they suck.  When your own team tells you how stupid you're being, maybe you should listen and fix the fucking problem?

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/oklahoma-education-disaster/

 

[Chad Fuck 17570]

42 minutes ago, 'stache said:

The National Fucking Review is now telling Okie Republicans that they suck.  When your own team tells you how stupid you're being, maybe you should listen and fix the fucking problem?

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/oklahoma-education-disaster/

 

Meh.  Establishment RINOs.

[High Plains Drifter 10981]

2 hours ago, 'stache said:

The National Fucking Review is now telling Okie Republicans that they suck.  When your own team tells you how stupid you're being, maybe you should listen and fix the fucking problem?

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/oklahoma-education-disaster/

 

Coburn's solution? Cut waste.

[kevwun 15659]

Quote

We have more than 500 different school districts. We have more school districts than Texas. So, we have this tremendous inefficiency in administrative costs . . . and nobody’s fixing that. There’s no reform as we raise taxes.”

Texas has over a 1,000 school districts.  Not sure where Coburn got the idea Oklahoma has more than Texas does, but he's very wrong.

Edited April 4, 2018 by kevwun

[atomheartbevo 89457]

21 hours ago, kevwun said:

Texas has over a 1,000 school districts.  Not sure where Coburn got the idea Oklahoma has more than Texas does, but he's very wrong.

And some of those “districts”, the superintendent also pulls duty as a coach, a mower of lawns, and a driver of school buses.

Edited April 5, 2018 by atomheartbevo

[Biff Tannen 45500]

10 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Your last sentence summarizes our entire political thinking in this country.  The only thing that matters is being re-elected TOMORROW, not what happens in a decade.  We are doing the equivalent of eating our seed stock -- nifty if you want lots of bread today, shitty if you want to have crops next growing season.  Zero long-term thinking or deferred gratification or sacrifice.

This seems appropriate.  For Oklahoma and millions of others.  Literally millions.

[Aqua Buddha 14525]

6 hours ago, 'stache said:

The National Fucking Review is now telling Okie Republicans that they suck.  When your own team tells you how stupid you're being, maybe you should listen and fix the fucking problem?

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/oklahoma-education-disaster/

 

What a horrible fucking article.  

Never makes a mention of the tax cuts to Oil & Gas, despite that being the primary cause of this.

Lets Coburn make broad statements without any challenge or fact checking?  More superintendents than Texas?  Sure.  $700M per year in waste?  OK, why not?

['stache 21777]

What a horrible fucking article.  
Never makes a mention of the tax cuts to Oil & Gas, despite that being the primary cause of this.
Lets Coburn make broad statements without any challenge or fact checking?  More superintendents than Texas?  Sure.  $700M per year in waste?  OK, why not?

Agreed, but it’s the National Fucking Review criticizing red state tax agendas gone too far. The fact that it offers any criticism at all is huge. There are plenty of center and left-of-center publications pointing the O&G problems. Notably, the most important reform being demanded is a $100 million reform to the state capital gains tax. The state senate has already approved it. The state house republican leadership refuses to allow a vote. The teachers union has already said that they’ll stop the strike if it passes. Just pass the damn law and it’ll end...for now at least.

[High Plains Drifter 10981]

19 hours ago, kevwun said:

Texas has over a 1,000 school districts.  Not sure where Coburn got the idea Oklahoma has more than Texas does, but he's very wrong.

 

Coburn must have been educated in OK.

[NIUHuskies 504]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155221310926782&id=119954941781

[tx 3 putt 76420]

'republican' party fucking up another state 

[Chad Fuck 17570]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155221310926782&id=119954941781

I love that the new go-to excuse is “paid protestors.” Nah, mother fucker. You and your crew fucked the state up enough that a lot of people are pissed. If you weren’t sitting in an echo chamber of fart sniffers, you’d know that.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

3 hours ago, Chad Fuck said:

 

I love that the new go-to excuse is “paid protestors.” Nah, mother fucker. You and your crew fucked the state up enough that a lot of people are pissed. If you weren’t sitting in an echo chamber of fart sniffers, you’d know that.

 

"Outside agitators": We've been blaming them since 1861. -- Signed, Racists and Rich Right-Wingers of America

[Brisketexan 104653]

13 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

"Outside agitators": We've been blaming them since 1861. -- Signed, Racists and Rich Right-Wingers of America

Seriously -- google the term.  It's been a steady play for nearly two centuries.  They go back to it, time and time again.  Because of course, nobody would ever speak out against their policies if it wasn't for "outside agitators."

"Why, our local negroes are fine, peaceful folks, and never give us trouble [because if they even thought about it, we'd hang 'em from the nearest tree].  All this unpleasant ruckus, well, that's being caused by outside agitators, riling up the locals, who are simple folks and easily manipulated.  Things were just fine around here until they showed up."

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13552]

22 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Coburn must have been educated in OK.

I was told there would be no math.

[Aqua Buddha 14525]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Seriously -- google the term.  It's been a steady play for nearly two centuries.  They go back to it, time and time again.  Because of course, nobody would ever speak out against their policies if it wasn't for "outside agitators."

"Why, our local negroes are fine, peaceful folks, and never give us trouble [because if they even thought about it, we'd hang 'em from the nearest tree].  All this unpleasant ruckus, well, that's being caused by outside agitators, riling up the locals, who are simple folks and easily manipulated.  Things were just fine around here until they showed up."

Yeah, blacks are always "outside agitators" but it was perfectly acceptable for Steve Bannon to campaign for Roy Moore.

[Cairn Horn88 8196]

Isn't that Pruitt clown from ok?

[Chad Fuck 17570]

2 minutes ago, Cairn Horn88 said:

Isn't that Pruitt clown from ok?

Yes.  

[Francisco 2.0 32346]

http://okcfox.com/news/fox-25-investigates/state-confiscates-beer-meant-for-teachers

 

Quote

OKLAHOMA CITY (KOKH) — Agents with the state's alcoholic beverages agency say a Facebook ad promising free beer for teachers led to a raid.

The ABLE Commission raided Patriarch Craft Beer House and Lawn after they announced they had two kegs of beer ready for teachers. In a Facebook post Sunday, the beer house said “We believe in and support our local public school teachers!! Starting at 3:00 Tuesday, we’ve split the bill with Roughtail Brewing to offer free pours of “Respect Party,” a Belgian table beer from RT! Come help us kill 2 kegs EPS teachers!! (Side note, other school districts are welcome as well. Just wanted to show love to our home town teachers!)”

An officer with the ABLE Commission saw the ad and the agency told FOX 25 he did not recognize the name on the beer label. That led the officer to go to Patriarch on Tuesday where they found two kegs of high-point beer that were not properly registered.

According to the ABLE Commission the brewery had not paid a “brand registration fee” for the beer that was to be given away to teachers. So, the ABLE officers took the donated teacher beer and issued a citation to Patriarch.

Patriarch said it had no comment on the ABLE Commission's action, but posted Wednesday that a brewery came forward with cans of “light” beer for teachers.

The ABLE Commission added that it is against the state’s “Happy Hour” laws for bars to give away high-point beer or liquor to anyone, even teachers.

Patriarch will have a chance to contest the citation once the ABLE Commission files its formal case.

 

['stache 21777]

Isn't that Pruitt clown from ok?

The only good thing about his appointment to EPA is that is prevented him from running for governor.

[Francisco 2.0 32346]

Just now, 'stache said:

The only good thing about his appointment to EPA is that is prevented him from running for governor.

Yeah, well...if he's canned soon enough he can cough up $2,000 and file next week.....

https://www.ok.gov/elections/Candidate_Info/Candidate_Filing/

[Chad Fuck 17570]

11 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

http://okcfox.com/news/fox-25-investigates/state-confiscates-beer-meant-for-teachers

 

 

If you needed another reason to know that OK sucks.

[Zepol87 9172]

What the fuck is wrong with these people??

[Brisketexan 104653]

30 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

What the fuck is wrong with these people??

Forget it Zepol....it's Oklahoma...

['stache 21777]

50 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Yeah, well...if he's canned soon enough he can cough up $2,000 and file next week.....

https://www.ok.gov/elections/Candidate_Info/Candidate_Filing/

Last I heard he dropped to his knees and gave his Dear Leader a nice "fluffer" so he's back in his good graces.  Just one more week scott, keep working that throat.  No gag reflex.

[Bat Guano 359]

Wouldn't it be easier to list the things that are NOT the matter with Oklahoma? Much shorter list. In fact, here it is:

 

 

[Okie State 3788]

Wouldn't it be easier to list the things that are NOT the matter with Oklahoma? Much shorter list. In fact, here it is:
 
 

Ha! So in other words everything is wrong with Oklahoma!

[Chad Fuck 17570]

Birds of a feather...

https://theintercept.com/2017/12/28/scott-pruitt-failed-banker-running-epa-superfund-program/

 

[Bat Guano 359]

56 minutes ago, Okie State said:

1 hour ago, Bat Guano said:

Wouldn't it be easier to list the things that are NOT the matter with Oklahoma? Much shorter list. In fact, here it is:
 
 

Ha! So in other words everything is wrong with Oklahoma!

[Okie State 3788]

No shit?

[Cairn Horn88 8196]

3 hours ago, 'stache said:

The only good thing about his appointment to EPA is that is prevented him from running for governor.

So, instead of only screwing ok, he is now gets to screw the whole country....and if he's fired, ok may end up with him as their governor....what a country.

['stache 21777]

45 minutes ago, Cairn Horn88 said:

So, instead of only screwing ok, he is now gets to screw the whole country....and if he's fired, ok may end up with him as their governor....what a country.

The country's fucked regardless of who cheeto dick appoints.  Might as well rid my state of some scum.

[pyrohornIII 4809]

On 4/4/2018 at 10:09 AM, atomheartbevo said:

Oil industry in Oklahoma - it's like gun control in a way - give up a little now to try and fix things/correct the course, or do nothing and then something else bad happens, and somebody will then come along and take a whole lot, all the while placing the blame on you.

And unfortunately for the oil industry (and Republicans) in Oklahoma, unlike Texas, Oklahoma doesn't have a large enough and diverse enough economy to cover this up.  People in Oklahoma know what was done for the O&G industry, while watching the schools go downhill at the same time.

And on top of all of that, we now have Trump's little trade war.  Oklahoma has manufacturing and aerospace industries that could very well be hurt, and those are well-paying jobs (compared to many other jobs in Oklahoma).  That's not getting into the farmers getting screwed over hard.

Mix education into that - many rural Oklahomans want decent schools, because they want their kids to do better, and they've watched way too many out-of-staters coming in for the better jobs.

Too many of the politicians are older and/or not thinking long-term - they are thinking an election or two from now, rather than 20 years from now, and just wanting to satisfy their masters.

Actually in quite a bit of rural Texas too much tax base still is in oil and gas.   Our Emergency Services District (ESD) contracts for emergency services, which usually means a privatized EMS and one or more VFDs.   Our total ESD taxable valuation went down by half due to a decrease in O&G prices and reduction in production.  That is huge when you go from half a million in collections to $250K.  That is less than the salary alone for an ambulance with a paramedic on board 24/7.  And ESD taxes are capped by the Texas Constitution at 10 cents/$100. 

The way I understand it there have been some favorable changes to tax evaluation for O&G in the recent years to go along with this reduction due to pricing and production. 

Another thing is property valuation and protest.  It's amazing what Luminant and some others have been getting away with for years now. 

http://www.theeagle.com/news/local/luminant-energy-disputing-lower-appraised-value/article_db7af8ca-b465-50a8-b118-74379986e690.html

 

I know if it's hurting first responders, it has to be hurting our schools too.  I can't help wonder how some are going to pay their bond obligations.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13416]

I understand one of the problems in OK is the voters passed a resolution in the 80s or 90s that required at least 75% of the legislation to raise taxes.  This ensures that you will never have new taxes even when a decent majority are calling for it.  

What a stupid idea.  No surprise that OK voters put that in place and I bet they smiled as they walked out of the voting booth: we got them liberals now.

[Francisco 2.0 32346]

2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I understand one of the problems in OK is the voters passed a resolution in the 80s or 90s that required at least 75% of the legislation to raise taxes.  This ensures that you will never have new taxes even when a decent majority are calling for it.  

What a stupid idea.  No surprise that OK voters put that in place and I bet they smiled as they walked out of the voting booth: we got them liberals now.

State Question 640, which was voted into existence in March 1992.  It was a knee-jerk reaction to House Bill 1017, which was passed in 1990 and signed into law by Governor Henry Bellmon (R).  HB 1017 was an educational reform bill; aside from teacher raises, it imposed class size limits, addressed school consolidation, alternative certification for teachers, early childhood programs and academic curriculum.

Quote

State Question 640 was a citizen-initiated ballot measure that was approved by Oklahoma voters in a special election in March 1992 with 56.2 percent of the vote. The measure amended Article 5, Section 33 of the Oklahoma Constitution to add restrictions on how revenue bills can become law. Under SQ 640, a revenue bill can only become law if: (1) it is approved by a 3/4th vote of both legislative chambers and is signed by the Governor; or (2) it is referred by the legislature to a vote of the people at the next general election and receives majority approval.

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Francisco 2.0

[Aqua Buddha 14525]

2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I understand one of the problems in OK is the voters passed a resolution in the 80s or 90s that required at least 75% of the legislation to raise taxes.  This ensures that you will never have new taxes even when a decent majority are calling for it.  

What a stupid idea.  No surprise that OK voters put that in place and I bet they smiled as they walked out of the voting booth: we got them liberals now.

It's one of those ideas that sounds great in theory but are terrible in practice.  (California's Prop 13 is maybe the best example.)  It's no coincidence that both of these examples came from CA and OK, both progressive era states that allow ballot initiatives.  In the case of CA, they've routinely voted in program but would vote against paying for them in the next election.  In Oklahoma, they can cut spending with a 50% of the vote but it takes 75% to raise taxes to pay for things.  So, basically, everything gets cut and nothing ever gets paid for which is where they're at now.

Good reference to the history of taxation in OK as it relates to HB 1017 from back in the day.

[kevwun 15659]

New York used to have a similar issue where their state legislature would have to pass something twice in order for it to go in to law.  The theory was that if the people didn't like it, they could vote in a new state assembly that could overturn it in the next session, but in reality it made getting anything done extremely difficult.

[tchookem 3900]

While I don't disagree that stupid tax policies are how OK education got where it is. I think your points completely ignore why they got here, and that's a blatant disregard and hatred of, public education. Look at how the leadership is taking about their teachers. They're calling them teenagers wanting a new car, and saying they're paid protesters. You don't do that to people you respect.

[XR4ticlone 122]

I've been seeing a lot about teacher pay lately, so I did some research.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics in 2013 said the average college graduate made $55,432. The Texas Classroom Teachers Association says that in 2013 the average US teacher made $56,383. 🤔 That would appear to be higher than the average college graduate. NY teachers were at $75,000 a year & South Dakota was at a low of $39,500, but I would (I'm sure correctly) assume that the same type of pattern holds for non teacher pay in those states as well.

One thing that isn't taken into consideration...for those college educated people working outside of Gov and education, there is no early retirement or pension plan.

IF teachers want more money...then they've got to also step up and give up guaranteed employment.  I'm not paying top wages for teachers that suck just because you've achieved 2 years of tenure.  

That said, both our kids are in private school.  Because not matter what your thoughts on teachers pay, our education system sucks.