What's the Matter with Oklahoma?

[NIUHuskies 504]

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by NIUHuskies

[Nolacycling 893]

Teachers in Texas do not have guaranteed job security. Thw word tenure exists nowhere in any contracts. There is no union in Texas that fulfils the duties of a union outside of being called one.

I have been teaching for over 20 years.  I have maxed out the preprinted salary schedule. I cannot earn a pay raise.

Oh and thank you so much for the state pension that gets picked at by increasing healthcare costs. Not to mention that we do not earn social security. Nada. I'm so happy that I don't have investment options through teaching. 

[Brian Fantana 6668]

Thank your resident hard Rs for supporting all the shitbird legislation that keeps fucking over teachers.

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

2 hours ago, XR4ticlone said:

I've been seeing a lot about teacher pay lately, so I did some research.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics in 2013 said the average college graduate made $55,432. The Texas Classroom Teachers Association says that in 2013 the average US teacher made $56,383. 🤔 That would appear to be higher than the average college graduate. NY teachers were at $75,000 a year & South Dakota was at a low of $39,500, but I would (I'm sure correctly) assume that the same type of pattern holds for non teacher pay in those states as well.

One thing that isn't taken into consideration...for those college educated people working outside of Gov and education, there is no early retirement or pension plan.

IF teachers want more money...then they've got to also step up and give up guaranteed employment.  I'm not paying top wages for teachers that suck just because you've achieved 2 years of tenure.  

That said, both our kids are in private school.  Because not matter what your thoughts on teachers pay, our education system sucks. 

But a teacher at year 20 is still making 55k a year and a college educated professional is making double or triple that if they’ve tried at all to grow their career. There is no long term financial upside for teachers that exists almost everywhere else. Don’t forget that when you do your analysis. 

[XR4ticlone 122]

9 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

But a teacher at year 20 is still making 55k a year and a college educated professional is making double or triple that if they’ve tried at all to grow their career. There is no long term financial upside for teachers that exists almost everywhere else. Don’t forget that when you do your analysis. 

The $55k average for college graduates is ALL college graduates...regardless of experience level.  

Yes, there are some college educated professionals that make big money.  But there are also many more that don't ever reach those levels.  

For example, it took my wife 8-10 years before she earned more than a teacher out of college.  She, ironically has gotten her teaching license, but is now in HR and makes better money doing that. 

The other thing that is left out is that becoming a teacher is NOT a slavery contract.  They are all free to leave at any point and pursue other opportunities.  

And yes, it's what they love.  I've got a lot of jobs that I loved that I no longer do because they didn't provide the income I needed to live.  It's called LIFE...it's a bitch.  

[Brian Fantana 6668]

Thanks for that life lesson nobody here fucking needed.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Brian Fantana

[XR4ticlone 122]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Thanks for that life lesson nobody here fucking needed.

Reading some of the posts...it appears you're over confident in the lack of need.  

[Brian Fantana 6668]

I just find it amusing that you skimmed over the post of an actual teacher in this thread and posted that self indulgent bullshit.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

What’s occurring in Oklahoma is just about teacher pay, it’s about supplying the schools with new teaching materials, keeping the kids on school 5 days per week, and yes staff pay.    Oklahoma isn’t competing with neighboring states, so the are foolishly losing the best and mobile teachers.   One can only guess who they will use to replace the teachers that move on.  

In a low unemployment rate world, it isn’t a good policy to keep wages low.  Unfortunately for management,  you gotta pay to retain talent.

[NIUHuskies 504]

Quote

Report shows 4 of 10 Oklahoma students need remediation in college

Forty percent of Oklahoma's public high school graduates are not prepared for college-level work in at least one subject area when they arrive on campus, a new report shows.

Of the 17,557 students who graduated in 2016 and entered an Oklahoma public college or university that fall, 7,119 enrolled in at least one remedial course.

The number increased 1.5 percent from the previous year, according to the report to the Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education.

"It's a little disappointing. Of course, we want the remediation rate to go down," said Tony Hutchison, the regents' vice chancellor for strategic planning, analysis and workforce and economic development.

Students who score less than 19 in a subject on the ACT often have to take a noncredit, remedial course in college before they can take the credit-bearing course in that subject. That extra step costs them time and money.

The new report shows more than one-third (34.7 percent) of the 2016 college freshmen needed remediation in math, the subject identified as the biggest barrier to college completion for students.

"Our long-term problem in math is we don't have as many certified math teachers," Hutchison said.

At high schools where emergency certified teachers are filling in for teachers with a mathematics education degree, "students may not be getting the foundation they need," he said.

Oklahoma's Mathematics Success Initiative includes higher education officials working with K-12 schools to improve mathematics preparation before students enter college.

A new 12th-grade math course is being offered at some schools for the first time this year, Hutchison said.

Students who already have the three math courses needed for high school graduation often skip taking math their senior year. It sets them up for a struggle when they get to college and haven't been in a math class for 15 months. The new 12th-grade math course is designed to overcome that hurdle.

"That's the first line of defense," Hutchison said.

The second is the summer bridge program offered at colleges to help students catch up before they enter their freshman year.

And third, Oklahoma is replacing traditional noncredit remedial courses in college with co-requisite education, which puts students in the credit-bearing course and gives them additional support in a math lab.

Those students do as well as their peers who were prepared for college math courses, said Michael Oehrtman, mathematics professor at Oklahoma State University and a member of the state's Mathematics Success Group.

These courses are doubling and tripling student completion of college-level mathematics in half the time, Oehrtman said.

"We are rapidly continuing to increase the availability of co-requisite support for entry-level mathematics courses across the state," he said.

Oklahoma students also are benefiting from "alternate pathways," courses offered as an alternative to college algebra, Oehrtman said.

College algebra is designed to support students who will take calculus in pursuit of a degree in STEM (science, technology, engineering and technology). Other math pathways have been developed for students who aren't in math-intensive STEM fields.

Depending on their major, students may benefit more from one of three other courses — modeling (simulating real-life situations with mathematical equations), quantitative reasoning or statistics. These can provide more relevant content for their degree area, Oehrtman said.

"These are all rigorous mathematics courses, but focus on different needs of various fields," he said.

"Much of our work moving forward is focused on communicating with faculty in these partner disciplines at each institution about these new options and updating degree requirements accordingly."

Across the state

The report shows remediation rates for other subjects was 16.2 percent in English, 9.3 percent in reading and only 0.5 percent in science.

Hutchison said there are two reasons so few students take a remedial science course. The ACT science section relies on reading comprehension and general science understanding, not calculations, so students generally score well on this section. Those who don't often learn what they need for science courses in remedial math, so they are prepared by the time they enroll in a science course.

High school graduates from Oklahoma and Tulsa counties accounted for about 40 percent of the 2016 college freshmen statewide who sought remediation. The number was 1,473 in Oklahoma County, or 42.2 percent of public school graduates who entered a public college or university. In Tulsa County, the number was 1,400, or 42.4 percent.

The highest rate of high school graduates who enrolled in remedial courses was 65.6 percent in Greer County. Other counties with half or more of the students seeking remediation were Caddo, Cotton, Haskell, Hughes, Love, Osage, Pawnee, Seminole, Texas and Tillman.

Bryan County had the lowest rate at 25.5 percent. Five other counties had 30 percent or fewer graduates enroll in remedial courses — Grant, Major, Pushmataha, Washington and Washita.

 

http://newsok.com/article/5589641/report-shows-4-of-10-oklahoma-students-need-remediation-in-college

[XR4ticlone 122]

8 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I just find it amusing that you skimmed over the post of an actual teacher in this thread and posted that self indulgent bullshit.

First off, you spelled "reality" wrong.

I just read the post from the teacher, I didn't see it as I responded to the post that replayed to me.  Yes, Texas doesn't have tenure but many states do.  My MIL is a retired Texas teacher, and it was a good living for her and the family. 

Teaching contracts in Texas...still not a slavery contracts.

HC is eating everyone's lunch.  We paid $1800 a month out of pocket for almost a year...now we are only paying $1200 through my wife's work.  That's not Texas' fault...blame our dip shits in DC for Obamacare.  

I've been in sales my whole life.  It's had plenty of highs...but also no shortage of lows.  I've changed jobs and industries several times along the way and lived 5 different states along the way.  It's been my choice.  When my last employer changed their pay plan, I left and started my own business. It's supply and demand.  As a tax payer who also pays for private schools for my kids...I not willing to pay more.  Sorry...not sorry.

 

 

 

[DanRydell 799]

I've been seeing a lot about teacher pay lately, so I did some research.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics in 2013 said the average college graduate made $55,432. The Texas Classroom Teachers Association says that in 2013 the average US teacher made $56,383. That would appear to be higher than the average college graduate. NY teachers were at $75,000 a year & South Dakota was at a low of $39,500, but I would (I'm sure correctly) assume that the same type of pattern holds for non teacher pay in those states as well.
One thing that isn't taken into consideration...for those college educated people working outside of Gov and education, there is no early retirement or pension plan.
IF teachers want more money...then they've got to also step up and give up guaranteed employment.  I'm not paying top wages for teachers that suck just because you've achieved 2 years of tenure.  
That said, both our kids are in private school.  Because not matter what your thoughts on teachers pay, our education system sucks. 

This presupposes that the goal should be for teachers to be the quality of an average college graduate.

[Brian Fantana 6668]

1 minute ago, DanRydell said:

 

This presupposes that the goal should be for teachers to be the quality of an average college graduate.

 

Yes, god forbid we point out that most teaching jobs require master's degrees or higher.

[XR4ticlone 122]

Just now, DanRydell said:

 

This presupposes that the goal should be for teachers to be the quality of an average college graduate.

 

The average college graduate will not see a pension.  They will not retire at 55 or whatever.  They will not have summers and 4 weeks Christmas vacations.  They will not have tenure as many teachers do.  

I'll tell you what I told my cousin when she was in college.  They only pay for your time or your knowledge.  And frankly unless you're in a really specialized field where few have your knowledge & lots of people need it...they're probably wanting both.  

 

[DanRydell 799]

The average college graduate will not see a pension.  They will not retire at 55 or whatever.  They will not have summers and 4 weeks Christmas vacations.  They will not have tenure as many teachers do.  

I'll tell you what I told my cousin when she was in college.  They only pay for your time or your knowledge.  And frankly unless you're in a really specialized field where few have your knowledge & lots of people need it...they're probably wanting both.  

 

The average college graduate will receive social security. And you continue to refer to tenure despite having already been told there’s no such thing.

 

And while the time off doesn’t come in large chunks like it does for teachers, my friends who are teachers work as many if not more hours in a year than my full-time employees.

[Aqua Buddha 14523]

3 hours ago, XR4ticlone said:

I've been seeing a lot about teacher pay lately, so I did some research.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics in 2013 said the average college graduate made $55,432. The Texas Classroom Teachers Association says that in 2013 the average US teacher made $56,383. 🤔 That would appear to be higher than the average college graduate. NY teachers were at $75,000 a year & South Dakota was at a low of $39,500, but I would (I'm sure correctly) assume that the same type of pattern holds for non teacher pay in those states as well.

One thing that isn't taken into consideration...for those college educated people working outside of Gov and education, there is no early retirement or pension plan.

IF teachers want more money...then they've got to also step up and give up guaranteed employment.  I'm not paying top wages for teachers that suck just because you've achieved 2 years of tenure.  

That said, both our kids are in private school.  Because not matter what your thoughts on teachers pay, our education system sucks. 

The average Oklahoma teacher salary is about $20K less than what you're quoting so I'm not sure why you're posting Texas stats in a thread about Oklahoma.

Oklahoma fiscal policy is GOP policy in its purest form and it's been a complete failure.

[Brisketexan 104636]

First off, you spelled "reality" wrong.
I just read the post from the teacher, I didn't see it as I responded to the post that replayed to me.  Yes, Texas doesn't have tenure but many states do.  My MIL is a retired Texas teacher, and it was a good living for her and the family. 
Teaching contracts in Texas...still not a slavery contracts.
HC is eating everyone's lunch.  We paid $1800 a month out of pocket for almost a year...now we are only paying $1200 through my wife's work.  That's not Texas' fault...blame our dip shits in DC for Obamacare.  
I've been in sales my whole life.  It's had plenty of highs...but also no shortage of lows.  I've changed jobs and industries several times along the way and lived 5 different states along the way.  It's been my choice.  When my last employer changed their pay plan, I left and started my own business. It's supply and demand.  As a tax payer who also pays for private schools for my kids...I not willing to pay more.  Sorry...not sorry.
 
 
 

Your approach incorporates a false presumption: that school is just about your kids. Or your neighbors kids.

It’s not. It’s about having a functional and educated society.

We all benefit, collectively, by having a literate and functional generation moving into society. And we suffer when we produce a generation of sub-par kids.

We’re saving a few tax dollars today to produce a generation of morons tomorrow. We’re eating our seed stock.

[atomheartbevo 89452]

1 hour ago, XR4ticlone said:

The average college graduate will not see a pension.  They will not retire at 55 or whatever.  They will not have summers and 4 weeks Christmas vacations.  They will not have tenure as many teachers do.  

I'll tell you what I told my cousin when she was in college.  They only pay for your time or your knowledge.  And frankly unless you're in a really specialized field where few have your knowledge & lots of people need it...they're probably wanting both.  

 

My wife taught for around a decade, and is still involved in education.

Since you failed reading comprehension in school, let me repeat something already mentioned: public school teachers don't get tenure.  How can any of us phrase this in such a way that you understand this?

And four fucking weeks at Christmas?  You didn't even pretend to look at a calendar, did you?  Here in Austin, the break for staff and students starts on December 21st and teachers are back on January 2nd.   Most districts follow something similar.

Summers off?  Yeah, except for workshops/training, time spent on prepping for the upcoming semester, etc.  Oh, and teachers don't get to just take vacations during the school year - they can't take a day off that's next to holiday/holiday weekend, etc., and they can't just fly out to wherever for a week, so that means that their vacations are basically confined to small windows when the students are off or the summers.

You're also not even discussing the abuse that helicopter parents of snowflake kids are dishing out because the snowflake kid can't be bothered to do their homework or study for a test.

[atomheartbevo 89452]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

What’s occurring in Oklahoma is just about teacher pay, it’s about supplying the schools with new teaching materials, keeping the kids on school 5 days per week, and yes staff pay.    Oklahoma isn’t competing with neighboring states, so the are foolishly losing the best and mobile teachers.   One can only guess who they will use to replace the teachers that move on.  

In a low unemployment rate world, it isn’t a good policy to keep wages low.  Unfortunately for management,  you gotta pay to retain talent.

Yeah, having relatives up there, a whole lot of people outside of the state don't realize how important education is in a lot of those areas, and that these schools are keeping some of these communities afloat as well.

Right now, quite a few OK teachers are fleeing the state and telling those still in OK to GTFO.  Including the former Oklahoma teacher of the year from 2016.

If things continue as go downhill, you're going to see a whole lot of communities shut down, because at the current rate, and given the fucking idiocy of the state legislature, you'll see smaller schools in Butt Fuck, Oklahoma shutting down for good, and you shut those schools down, and parents will move elsewhere, and you'll get a bunch of ghost towns.  Unemployment will rise rapidly all across the state in various jobs if you start killing off those towns.

But Oklahoma Republicans gonna keep on Republicaning like fucking idiots, until they Republican themselves out of a job come November.

[Brisketexan 104636]

Yeah, having relatives up there, a whole lot of people outside of the state don't realize how important education is in a lot of those areas, and that these schools are keeping some of these communities afloat as well.
Right now, quite a few OK teachers are fleeing the state and telling those still in OK to GTFO.  Including the former Oklahoma teacher of the year from 2016.
If things continue as go downhill, you're going to see a whole lot of communities shut down, because at the current rate, and given the fucking idiocy of the state legislature, you'll see smaller schools in Butt Fuck, Oklahoma shutting down for good, and you shut those schools down, and parents will move elsewhere, and you'll get a bunch of ghost towns.  Unemployment will rise rapidly all across the state in various jobs if you start killing off those towns.
But Oklahoma Republicans gonna keep on Republicaning like fucking idiots, until they Republican themselves out of a job come November.

Except for that last part.

They’ll still vote R. Because mooslems and messicans.

[XR4ticlone 122]

29 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Your approach incorporates a false presumption: that school is just about your kids. Or your neighbors kids.

It’s not. It’s about having a functional and educated society.

We all benefit, collectively, by having a literate and functional generation moving into society. And we suffer when we produce a generation of sub-par kids.

We’re saving a few tax dollars today to produce a generation of morons tomorrow. We’re eating our seed stock.

No...I get it.  But lets be honest...our education system is broken.  The results speak for themselves.  

And real honestly my beef isn't with the average teacher...it's with the system that's broken and producing high cost, low quality results.

Throwing more money at it isn't going to change anything. 

Should teachers get more of the money currently allotted to schools? Yep.   

 

[DanRydell 799]

No...I get it.  But lets be honest...our education system is broken.  The results speak for themselves.  

And real honestly my beef isn't with the average teacher...it's with the system that's broken and producing high cost, low quality results.

Throwing more money at it isn't going to change anything. 

Should teachers get more of the money currently allotted to schools? Yep.   

 

For decades, schools had the luxury of a monopoly on the best and brightest female college graduates in the country. Fortunately the rest of the labor market is not so overtly sexist anymore and such a monopoly no longer exists. Problem is, without a monopoly of that labor, the cost of employing the same caliber of teachers has gone up significantly. Unfortunately, teacher wages have remained flat for basically that entire time.

 

You’re like Tahoe’s great great granddaddy in Hazel Green, AL complaining that the costs of operating his plantation have gone up since 1865 and his revenues haven’t kept pace.

[kopp0e 1135]

8 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

The average Oklahoma teacher salary is about $20K less than what you're quoting so I'm not sure why you're posting Texas stats in a thread about Oklahoma.

Oklahoma fiscal policy is GOP policy in its purest form and it's been a complete failure.

I remember when Kevin Durant was contemplating leaving or re-signing with the Thunder: 

Gov. Mary Fallin said something to this effect: "Kevin, if you re-sign with the Thunder I will appoint you as an honorary member of my cabinet"...  

It just shows how the state government legislation's priorities are backwards in groveling over an professional athlete... In hopes to keep the illusion of being a "big league city" as always measured by nearby cities as Kansas City & Dallas, as opposed to placing pride within investing in infrastructure for education for public schooling by increasing the pay of educators...

[SKJ 1305]

Except for that last part.

They’ll still vote R. Because mooslems and messicans.

Doant forgot borshon, bro

[XR4ticlone 122]

9 hours ago, DanRydell said:

 

For decades, schools had the luxury of a monopoly on the best and brightest female college graduates in the country. Fortunately the rest of the labor market is not so overtly sexist anymore and such a monopoly no longer exists. Problem is, without a monopoly of that labor, the cost of employing the same caliber of teachers has gone up significantly. Unfortunately, teacher wages have remained flat for basically that entire time.

 

You’re like Tahoe’s great great granddaddy in Hazel Green, AL complaining that the costs of operating his plantation have gone up since 1865 and his revenues haven’t kept pace.

Except in 1960 only 6% of women got college degrees.  Today it's over 1/3.   

Men 10% vs 1/3.  

There are a lot more college grads to pick from.  Unless you want to tell me that the educational system is broken and 1960's college grads are much better than college grads of today? 

 

Finally...when I look at what's going on at most college campus' today it's clear were not teaching fundamentals unless it's fundamental Marxism.  I'm not rewarding that. 

It's time to give choice back to people.  I'm willing to pay for education...not indoctrination or failure.  

I want BETTER CHOICES for poor people.  I've got options.  It's costing me $15k a year on top of my taxes to do it...but I can do it.  Poor people can't afford to move out of failing school systems...and they can't afford private schools.  

A report released Tuesday by an educational advocacy group founded by retired general and former Bush administration Secretary of State Colin Powell finds that almost half of all public high school students in the US’ fifty largest cities fail to graduate.

System is Broken

I don't believe Gov fixes anything.  And it's always easy to say raise taxes...because everyone thinks it'll just be raising taxes on other people that are 'rich' or businesses.  Another product of shitty educational system that's not taught economics, finance, or common sense in a long time.  Taxes are already too damn high.  Performance of the Gov is already too damn low. 

It's time for accountability for our tax money...I know I'm not the only one that thinks it.  The problem is fighting the perception that you're anti-kid if you don't want teachers paid is more...or more money spent on schools.  We've spent the money...it's not being utilized correctly.  We're still running an education system that's the same as 1960's in 2018.  

It's BROKEN...it's OBSOLETE...it's FAILING...and the NEA & Teachers Unions are fighting fixing it.  Worst of all they're using our tax dollars to do it.  If schools were a private business we'd be up in arms about their performance and the monopoly they have...rightfully so!   

 

FINALLY....I don't think this is all the teachers fault.  There are tons of great teachers out there.   My MIL, SIL, and several good friends are teachers and I have no doubt they're doing all they can to turn out the best possible results.  But even they'll tell you how broken the system is from within...from putting kids in classrooms that have no business in there...to all the bureaucratic bs that keeps them from helping kids.  

[Brian Fantana 6668]

Can you please stop with the average college graduate salary cap or at least use average salary for those with a graduate degree?

[Brisketexan 104636]

1 minute ago, XR4ticlone said:

Finally...when I look at what's going on at most college campus' today it's clear were not teaching fundamentals unless it's fundamental Marxism.  I'm not rewarding that. 

Oh Jesus fucking Christ.  You see what you want to see. The vast majority of college students are just regular schlubs who go to class, drink too much on the weekends with their friends, etc.  The percentage of hairy-armpitted Peoples Workers Angry Party of America types is what it was when I was in school -- a loud (and peculiar, and embarrassing) curiosity.

 

3 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

I don't believe Gov fixes anything. 

Again, Jesus Fucking Christ.  As I drive to work on a government road, use products delivered seamlessly using the interstate highway system, drink safe drinking water and flush my shit away where it's treated and doesn't pollute my water, etc. etc....I see that you couldn't be more full of shit if you tried. Sure, government fucks shit up.  Plenty.  But so does private industry when it's often motivated by greed, or large corporations that have just as silly a bureaucracy as most governments, etc.

As for education, freely accessible public education has been one of the greatest accelerators of economic success in most every country where it exists.  Again, it's FAR from perfect.  But the fact that we've produced a largely literate, functional population for decades (compare that with where we were 100 years ago) is a big success for us.

6 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

Taxes are already too damn high.  Performance of the Gov is already too damn low. 

Tax rates are much lower than they were back in the "when America was Great" days that y'all seem to yearn for so much.  And back when government performed better.

 

7 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

It's BROKEN...it's OBSOLETE...it's FAILING...and the NEA & Teachers Unions are fighting fixing it.  Worst of all they're using our tax dollars to do it.  If schools were a private business we'd be up in arms about their performance and the monopoly they have...rightfully so!   

We could both easily walk through 100 examples of shitty things teachers unions in New York etc. have done.  I agree.

Your one-sided vision is what's amazing to me.  Decrees from "get tough on schools" legislators, ordering more and more testing, more and more objective "standards" with less allowance for teacher flexibility and student contact, have hurt things as well.

Throwing money blindly at schools isn't a good answer.

Neither is starving them.  Which is what OK and others are trying to do.

We want and need an educated population.  Great for your kids who can go to private school.  What about the 100 kids on the next few blocks who can't afford that?  Do we want them to have school books that aren't falling apart?  Buildings that can be open more than 4 days a week?  Capable teachers?  So they can end up contributing to society as educated, functioning members?  THAT is the point of public education.

"Fuck government!  Fuck teachers unions!  Fuck taxes!" is myopic, simplistic, juvenile bullshit.

[seven 1366]

16 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

Finally...when I look at what's going on at most college campus' today it's clear were not teaching fundamentals unless it's fundamental Marxism.  I'm not rewarding that. 

Oh, I get it, you're a moron. Lol

['stache 21777]

I love the circular argument that we shouldn't raise school funding until they perform better.  They need better funding to perform better you fucking morons!  Have you seen the pictures circulating of textbooks falling apart in Oklahoma?  Some of them were published before 9-11 and have not updated it's effect on world history.  Let's also look at the explosion of "school choice" initiatives, themselves circular in reasoning.  "If you give more choice the schools will compete and improve."  Yeah, okay.  What happens is that the charters and magnets involve active parents (they have to go out of their way to apply and get in), and those kids already have a leg up.  The ones left at the "failing" neighborhood schools are a conglomerate of kids with parents who are less involved, a very difficult task for even the best of teachers (and don't give me "the parents should just try harder"; kids don't get to choose their parents and no amount of shaming will make lazy parents better).  If we had a better mix, the better students with the more involved parents could help lift up the other kids.  But no, we put the better situated students together, and the disadvantaged students together.  I think there is room for magnets and charters, mostly where they offer something very specific (arts, music, language immersion, etc.), but there are far too many, and they've become mostly the "good" schools while the other schools struggle.  A parent shouldn't want the magnet because the neighborhood school sucks.  They should all be good and the magnet should be for something more specific.     

Edited April 9, 2018 by 'stache

[Aqua Buddha 14523]

Every single person in involved in the modern economy knows that workforce quality is more important than taxes and regulation going forward.

So, yeah, let's gut the school system.

['stache 21777]

I also was woken up twice this weekend by earthquakes. Nice to see all that fraking, while fucking up the earth and regularly shaking the whole state, was totally worthwhile. Harold Hamm and his fat ass cabal make a few extra hundreds of millions of dollars, and we got earthquakes and more school spending cuts. Fuck this state, fuck everything.

[CooterBrown 17914]

There was a viral post of pictures of OK classrooms going around a week ago. If you had to guess a country based on the pics, you'd probably guess Haiti. 90% of the chairs were broken. There weren't enough chairs and a couple of kids had to sit on the floor unless they brought their own chair from home.

[High Plains Drifter 10981]

15 hours ago, NIUHuskies said:

 

Based on his grammar, looks like Coach Gundy was educated in OK.

 

[Aqua Buddha 14523]

16 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I also was woken up twice this weekend by earthquakes. Nice to see all that fraking, while fucking up the earth and regularly shaking the whole state, was totally worthwhile. Harold Hamm and his fat ass cabal make a few extra hundreds of millions of dollars, and we got earthquakes and more school spending cuts. Fuck this state, fuck everything.

Harold Hamm has to pay for that divorce somehow.

[Ben Tobin 374]

58 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

Finally...when I look at what's going on at most college campus' today it's clear were not teaching fundamentals unless it's fundamental Marxism.  I'm not rewarding that. 

  

 

The chicken  He really likes to fuck it.

[XR4ticlone 122]

So the correct answer is...throw endless money at it?

I agree that the system is too big and too unaccountable for success.  

That's why it has no business being Gov run.  Because nothing is bigger or more unaccountable than Gov. 

[Brisketexan 104636]

 

3 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

So the correct answer is...throw endless money at it?

I agree that the system is too big and too unaccountable for success.  

That's why it has no business being Gov run.  Because nothing is bigger or more unaccountable than Gov. 

Well, wherever you went to school, that money was wasted.

59 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Throwing money blindly at schools isn't a good answer.

Neither is starving them.  Which is what OK and others are trying to do.

 

[Brian Fantana 6668]

49 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

So the correct answer is...throw endless money at it?

I agree that the system is too big and too unaccountable for success.  

That's why it has no business being Gov run.  Because nothing is bigger or more unaccountable than Gov. 

Let's go through this line by line.

1. No one said that. There should be more money spent on it than there is.
2. Fine.
3. Oh, so you're just another anti-public education mouth breather.

Moving on.

[ChiTownDoc 21102]

15 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

 

Oklahoma fiscal policy is GOP policy in its purest form and it's been a complete failure.

This is a fact.  And to keep it fair the democrats fiscal policy in its purest form also fails but probably not as spectacularly.  

[Ghost of LL 15493]

XR4's comments really are the bottom line--there is a large constituency in Oklahoma and elsewhere that is heavily invested in destroying the public school system in order to benefit the parochial school system.  The Oklahoma teachers already got most of their demands vis-a-vis salary, but that's only part of what they're asking for.  The education system in Oklahoma is so underfunded that 20% of schools have only four days of class per week.  Buildings are in poor repair, and textbooks are old and out of date.  In-class computers are almost unheard-of in Oklahoma. 

And then conservatives throw up their hands and say "our education system sucks," as though they have no fault in its suckitude.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Ghost of LL

[Fozzz 152]

1 hour ago, XR4ticlone said:

So the correct answer is...throw endless money at it?

I agree that the system is too big and too unaccountable for success.  

That's why it has no business being Gov run.  Because nothing is bigger or more unaccountable than Gov. 

Why even have a democracy, right?  

[atomheartbevo 89452]

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

XR4's comments really are the bottom line--there is a large constituency in Oklahoma and elsewhere that is heavily invested in destroying the public school system in order to benefit the parochial school system. 

It's pretty clear the GOP, or rather its donors/lobbyists, wants to send taxpayer money to the shareholders of for-profit private school systems.  Why try and put as much money as possible towards educating students when you can instead send as much government money as possible to the shareholders of private companies?  This is helped by the fact that we got Betsy-fucking-DeVos as Secretary of Education.

But in the case of Oklahoma and other heavily-rural states, if you start shutting down those public schools by way of neglecting their funding, you're going to destroy many communities, because people with kids will leave, and companies will stop investing or expanding or even opening new businesses in Oklahoma.  All those Walmarts, Dollar Generals, Braums, etc. in the smaller cities are going to take a huge hit when you start drying up the surrounding communities.   Too many fucking Okies already live in North Texas or Kansas City.  Take away the smaller communities and start drying up jobs in the smaller cities, and it'll be the Great Depression all over again, except they'll move to Dallas or Kansas City.

And at some point those locals are going to realize just how hard the GOP has been fucking them.  And the GOP can't blame it on the Dems.  I know some here believe the GOP will skate away from this with no repercussions, but not all of those rural folks are the dumbass-mouthbreathers the GOP leadership takes them to be, and Oklahoma was a blue state within the last 15 year years.

[XR4ticlone 122]

8 hours ago, Fozzz said:

Why even have a democracy, right?  

I guess that's why we DON'T have a democracy.  

We have a Republic.  

 

 

I'm 46 and went to public school in a very German part of Northern Iowa.   We had slightly higher than normal taxes there and an excellent school system.   My dad was on school board for 12 years during that time.  Of the 24 of us in my class 22 have 4 year college degrees or greater.  But at that point in time schools were basically controlled by the local community. 

Even then, Iowa gave parents the right to open enroll to another school system if that was their choice. 

 

No one wants to address the real problems with schools.  We have a very outdated, top down, inefficient methods of teaching.  We're not spending enough time on critical thinking, reading, writing, math, and science.  And yes, we've turned the schools into big social experiments.  

I have zero faith that Gov can fix schools.  Common Core from all I've read and seen is really being driven by the book companies and testing companies.  So this 'XR wants to turn over education to greedy corporations!' is pretty fucking laughable.  That whole thing pisses me off more than you can imagine.  But once again we see that Big Gov doesn't limit Corp greed or corruption...it ENABLES it!  

Look...I've got a choice for my kids.  You're not fucking me.  You are however fucking the poorest among us who can't pay for private schools, can't afford to move to a better district, and can't afford the time or money (loss) to home school.   

Yes.  I want to turn it over to the parents.  Let them pick a school that meets their expectations, fits their child's needs, and has to earn their continued business.  

Regardless of your party affiliation...there are endless assholes, crooks, and liars that will fuck up everything they touch....including education.  

Unless you have choices. 

 

 

[DanRydell 799]

Louisiana and Indiana launched large-scale voucher programs and students performed worse.

[Goredho 17349]

On 4/8/2018 at 9:06 PM, Brisketexan said:

Your approach incorporates a false presumption: that school is just about your kids. Or your neighbors kids.

It’s not. It’s about having a functional and educated society.

We all benefit, collectively, by having a literate and functional generation moving into society. And we suffer when we produce a generation of sub-par kids.

We’re saving a few tax dollars today to produce a generation of morons tomorrow. We’re eating our seed stock.

I’ll take your idea further.  You can spend the money on teachers and schools or police and prisons.  Either way, Society is going to pay for their children’s education (or lack thereof).Whoever said the GOP is actively trying to degrade public education so that it’s supporterodes was spot on. This isn’t an Oklahoma problem, it’s a GOP problem. Texas is the 10th largest economy in the world, and the rebulicans are asking teachers to do more with less.  This shit fucking disgusts me https://www.houstonchronicle.com/denied/.

[TheFlyingBoat 906]

On 4/8/2018 at 10:25 AM, Aqua Buddha said:

It's one of those ideas that sounds great in theory but are terrible in practice.  (California's Prop 13 is maybe the best example.)  It's no coincidence that both of these examples came from CA and OK, both progressive era states that allow ballot initiatives.  In the case of CA, they've routinely voted in program but would vote against paying for them in the next election.  In Oklahoma, they can cut spending with a 50% of the vote but it takes 75% to raise taxes to pay for things.  So, basically, everything gets cut and nothing ever gets paid for which is where they're at now.

Good reference to the history of taxation in OK as it relates to HB 1017 from back in the day.

I mean thankfully Brown has done a pretty good job of being Governor so CA is actually running a surplus and has run one for the past 5 years now (though an accounting error with MediCal almost broke the streak, but higher revenues saved the day) so at least CA pays for all the expenditures and has a healthy rainy day fund for when shit hits the fan in the next year or two (estimated to be almost 20 billion at the end of this FY). Agreed that Prop 13 is dumb as fuck.

[Hornius Emeritus 12420]

6 hours ago, XR4ticlone said:

I guess that's why we DON'T have a democracy.  

We have a Republic.  I'm 46 and went to public school in a very German part of Northern Iowa.   

 

 

 

 

Good Lord, not this again. We have BOTH a democracy AND a republic. The two terms are not antithetical.  

A republic is a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives and which has an elected or nominated president, rather than a monarch.  A democracy is a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.  Specifically, the United States is a representative democracy. 

Apparently those public school teachers in Iowa didn't teach you very well. 

[Chad Fuck 17567]

Don’t blame it on the teachers HE.

[GSU&UT 1798]

Hahhaha holy shit, just catching up in this thread and had to stop to acknowledge XR4ticlone saying that Cultural Marxism is the only thing being taught at colleges is just absolutely amazing, like that is an impressive amount of stupid right off the bat in that post.

[Nolacycling 893]

13 hours ago, XR4ticlone said:

I guess that's why we DON'T have a democracy.  

We have a Republic.  

 

 

I'm 46 and went to public school in a very German part of Northern Iowa.   We had slightly higher than normal taxes there and an excellent school system.   My dad was on school board for 12 years during that time.  Of the 24 of us in my class 22 have 4 year college degrees or greater.  But at that point in time schools were basically controlled by the local community. 

Even then, Iowa gave parents the right to open enroll to another school system if that was their choice. 

 

No one wants to address the real problems with schools.  We have a very outdated, top down, inefficient methods of teaching.  We're not spending enough time on critical thinking, reading, writing, math, and science.  And yes, we've turned the schools into big social experiments.  

I have zero faith that Gov can fix schools.  Common Core from all I've read and seen is really being driven by the book companies and testing companies.  So this 'XR wants to turn over education to greedy corporations!' is pretty fucking laughable.  That whole thing pisses me off more than you can imagine.  But once again we see that Big Gov doesn't limit Corp greed or corruption...it ENABLES it!  

Look...I've got a choice for my kids.  You're not fucking me.  You are however fucking the poorest among us who can't pay for private schools, can't afford to move to a better district, and can't afford the time or money (loss) to home school.   

Yes.  I want to turn it over to the parents.  Let them pick a school that meets their expectations, fits their child's needs, and has to earn their continued business.  

Regardless of your party affiliation...there are endless assholes, crooks, and liars that will fuck up everything they touch....including education.  

Unless you have choices. 

 

 

So using your small Iowa town as the example, I'm interested as to who you believe controls it now. Is it still producing the same caliber of students?

Edited April 10, 2018 by Nolacycling