What's the Matter with Oklahoma?

[Ghost of LL 15493]

13 hours ago, XR4ticlone said:

I guess that's why we DON'T have a democracy.  

We have a Republic.  

 

 

I'm 46 and went to public school in a very German part of Northern Iowa.   We had slightly higher than normal taxes there and an excellent school system.   My dad was on school board for 12 years during that time.  Of the 24 of us in my class 22 have 4 year college degrees or greater.  But at that point in time schools were basically controlled by the local community. 

Even then, Iowa gave parents the right to open enroll to another school system if that was their choice. 

 

No one wants to address the real problems with schools.  We have a very outdated, top down, inefficient methods of teaching.  We're not spending enough time on critical thinking, reading, writing, math, and science.  And yes, we've turned the schools into big social experiments.  

I have zero faith that Gov can fix schools.  Common Core from all I've read and seen is really being driven by the book companies and testing companies.  So this 'XR wants to turn over education to greedy corporations!' is pretty fucking laughable.  That whole thing pisses me off more than you can imagine.  But once again we see that Big Gov doesn't limit Corp greed or corruption...it ENABLES it!  

Look...I've got a choice for my kids.  You're not fucking me.  You are however fucking the poorest among us who can't pay for private schools, can't afford to move to a better district, and can't afford the time or money (loss) to home school.   

Yes.  I want to turn it over to the parents.  Let them pick a school that meets their expectations, fits their child's needs, and has to earn their continued business.  

Regardless of your party affiliation...there are endless assholes, crooks, and liars that will fuck up everything they touch....including education.  

Unless you have choices. 

 

 

A key problem, however, being the vouchers don't cover the full cost of a private education.  As a result, there are very few private schools in non-affluent areas.  And those that are in poor areas are often little more than thinly-veiled scams.  For example, see Deion Sanders' charter school.  

There's a reason that vouchers have led to lower academic achievement everywhere they've been tried.

Perhaps more importantly in a place like Texas, there simply aren't any private schools of sufficient size in rural areas.  Private schools are a creature of urban areas.  In Rural Texas, community and academic life is built around the public school system.  It's the largest employer; it's the center of the community's civic life; and it's a source of civic pride.

The real question I have is: why do you hate Texas high school football?

[chainsaw 9838]

On 4/4/2018 at 9:23 PM, Aqua Buddha said:

What a horrible fucking article.  

Never makes a mention of the tax cuts to Oil & Gas, despite that being the primary cause of this.

Lets Coburn make broad statements without any challenge or fact checking?  More superintendents than Texas?  Sure.  $700M per year in waste?  OK, why not?

Maybe the state should not have hitched its wagon to a single boom-or-bust industry.

[Ghost of LL 15493]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

Maybe the state should not have hitched its wagon to a single boom-or-bust industry.

But in fairness, what is Oklahoma going to hitch its wagon to?  It's landlocked, and so it has no access to the economic benefits that a port brings.  It was never going to be a great banking or finance hub after Dallas was chosen to be the site for the regional Fed in 1913.  It doesn't have any natural beauty akin to Colorado or California that can be used to attract talented young people.  And yet, if you just dig down a few thousand feet, there's incredible wealth.

What was their other choice?

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

33 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

What was their other choice?

Bingo parlors.

[chainsaw 9838]

46 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

What was their other choice?

Pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.

[sidis 9755]

51 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

But in fairness, what is Oklahoma going to hitch its wagon to?  It's landlocked, and so it has no access to the economic benefits that a port brings.  It was never going to be a great banking or finance hub after Dallas was chosen to be the site for the regional Fed in 1913.  It doesn't have any natural beauty akin to Colorado or California that can be used to attract talented young people.  And yet, if you just dig down a few thousand feet, there's incredible wealth.

What was their other choice?

agriculture!  wait...

[Royalfan5 2348]

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

But in fairness, what is Oklahoma going to hitch its wagon to?  It's landlocked, and so it has no access to the economic benefits that a port brings.  It was never going to be a great banking or finance hub after Dallas was chosen to be the site for the regional Fed in 1913.  It doesn't have any natural beauty akin to Colorado or California that can be used to attract talented young people.  And yet, if you just dig down a few thousand feet, there's incredible wealth.

What was their other choice?

They've been able to spawn a decent c-store/truck stop chain or two.

['stache 21777]

2 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

But in fairness, what is Oklahoma going to hitch its wagon to?  It's landlocked, and so it has no access to the economic benefits that a port brings.  It was never going to be a great banking or finance hub after Dallas was chosen to be the site for the regional Fed in 1913.  It doesn't have any natural beauty akin to Colorado or California that can be used to attract talented young people.  And yet, if you just dig down a few thousand feet, there's incredible wealth.

What was their other choice?

So many poor decisions over the last 30 years by hillbilly idiots who don't give a single shit about prosperity, just their narrow world view.  Thus, 30 years after the bust, and after the major O&G headquarters left for Houston, we are still primarily an O&G economy. 

We actually have a port, the Port of Catoosa near Tulsa.  Basically a trench dredged roughly along the Arkansas River, connected to the Mississippi River and thereby the Gulf of Mexico.  It does well, but not necessarily a boom.  Underutilized due to poor leadership.

Our natural beauty is vastly underrated.  We're no Colorado or California, but we're not solely a "plains" state like Kansas.  OKC is the flattest part of the state, so that's the majority image.  Some of the best features of Arkansas Ozarks exist in the eastern part of the state.  The western part of the state has southwest landscape features akin to West Texas and New Mexico.  Tulsa is surrounded by rolling hills, lakes, and plenty of natural beauty.  The most popular is Grand Lake.  It's utilized mostly by local O&G richers.  The rest of the lakes are for the poors and their pontoons and bud light.  Again, poor leadership under utilizing natural beauty.  The City of Tulsa is getting much better at this.  It's my only hope.

Aviation still has a pretty big presence here, but American Airlines is the largest, and there's always the threat of consolidation in DFW.  Healthcare has been strong, but that's not really unique with all the olds everywhere supporting expanded healthcare economies.  Nothing really separates us.

This place could be thriving, or at least be doing significantly better than it is, but the leadership are a bunch of yokels with no vision.  They only really care about gays, guns, and fucking up public schools in the name of jesus, or something like that.  It's infuriating.  I'm still here because the City of Tulsa has some leadership that is really trying to make improvements, but the state will always hold us back.  I've considered moving for a long time.  This teacher strike and inaction and insults from the state legislature have me very much with a foot out the door.  Where to?  I don't know.  But this is becoming intolerable.  

Edited April 10, 2018 by 'stache

[High Plains Drifter 10981]

3 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

 

What was their other choice?

Indian trinkets?

Meth?

 

[Okie State 3788]

So many poor decisions over the last 30 years by hillbilly idiots who don't give a single shit about prosperity, just their narrow world view.  Thus, 30 years after the bust, and after the major O&G headquarters left for Houston, we are still primarily an O&G economy. 
We actually have a port, the Port of Catoosa near Tulsa.  Basically a trench dredged roughly along the Arkansas River, connected to the Mississippi River and thereby the Gulf of Mexico.  It does well, but not necessarily a boom.  Underutilized due to poor leadership.
Our natural beauty is vastly underrated.  We're no Colorado or California, but we're not solely a "plains" state like Kansas.  OKC is the flattest part of the state, so that's the majority image.  Some of the best features of Arkansas Ozarks exist in the eastern part of the state.  The western part of the state has southwest landscape features akin to West Texas and New Mexico.  Tulsa is surrounded by rolling hills, lakes, and plenty of natural beauty.  The most popular is Grand Lake.  It's utilized mostly by local O&G richers.  The rest of the lakes are for the poors and their pontoons and bud light.  Again, poor leadership under utilizing natural beauty.  The City of Tulsa is getting much better at this.  It's my only hope.
Aviation still has a pretty big presence here, but American Airlines is the largest, and there's always the threat of consolidation in DFW.  Healthcare has been strong, but that's not really unique with all the olds everywhere supporting expanded healthcare economies.  Nothing really separates us.
This place could be thriving, or at least be doing significantly better than it is, but the leadership are a bunch of yokels with no vision.  They only really care about gays, guns, and fucking up public schools in the name of jesus, or something like that.  It's infuriating.  I'm still here because the City of Tulsa has some leadership that is really trying to make improvements, but the state will always hold us back.  I've considered moving for a long time.  This teacher strike and inaction and insults from the state legislature have me very much with a foot out the door.  Where to?  I don't know.  But this is becoming intolerable.  

The education issue was a big sticking point with me knowing that I didn't want my kids to be any part of that mess. This really seems like a turning point for the state.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Is there any data showing oklahoma school performance has declined the last 5 years or so?  Seems like that would be relevant. 

The NAEP scores adjusted for racial demographics don’t show any issues yet.  

[bolverk 29409]

4 hours ago, 'stache said:

So many poor decisions over the last 30 years by hillbilly idiots who don't give a single shit about prosperity, just their narrow world view.  Thus, 30 years after the bust, and after the major O&G headquarters left for Houston, we are still primarily an O&G economy. 

We actually have a port, the Port of Catoosa near Tulsa.  Basically a trench dredged roughly along the Arkansas River, connected to the Mississippi River and thereby the Gulf of Mexico.  It does well, but not necessarily a boom.  Underutilized due to poor leadership.

Our natural beauty is vastly underrated.  We're no Colorado or California, but we're not solely a "plains" state like Kansas.  OKC is the flattest part of the state, so that's the majority image.  Some of the best features of Arkansas Ozarks exist in the eastern part of the state.  The western part of the state has southwest landscape features akin to West Texas and New Mexico.  Tulsa is surrounded by rolling hills, lakes, and plenty of natural beauty.  The most popular is Grand Lake.  It's utilized mostly by local O&G richers.  The rest of the lakes are for the poors and their pontoons and bud light.  Again, poor leadership under utilizing natural beauty.  The City of Tulsa is getting much better at this.  It's my only hope.

Aviation still has a pretty big presence here, but American Airlines is the largest, and there's always the threat of consolidation in DFW.  Healthcare has been strong, but that's not really unique with all the olds everywhere supporting expanded healthcare economies.  Nothing really separates us.

This place could be thriving, or at least be doing significantly better than it is, but the leadership are a bunch of yokels with no vision.  They only really care about gays, guns, and fucking up public schools in the name of jesus, or something like that.  It's infuriating.  I'm still here because the City of Tulsa has some leadership that is really trying to make improvements, but the state will always hold us back.  I've considered moving for a long time.  This teacher strike and inaction and insults from the state legislature have me very much with a foot out the door.  Where to?  I don't know.  But this is becoming intolerable.  

6

There's a very real thing called the "oil curse", the "curse of oil", or the "resource curse" that makes it extremely difficult for oil-dependent economies to diversify. When the price of oil is high, there's is absolutely no other industry that can compete in terms of wages, revenues, and general economic activity. When times are bad, the town, state, region, country, has no other (or very little) recourse for growing and diversifying its economy.

Of course, there are actions that can be taken to balance an economy: invest surpluses during the good times toward education and economic diversification efforts, but it requires an incredible amount of fiscal discipline to put that money toward a very slow ROI.

Texas has been very fortunate in the way we've invested our state acquired oil money by having the foresight to pump that money into the PUF, creating the incredible world-class university that most of us on this board are lucky to have access to. Moreover, we've used our wealth to pretty much "buy" certain industries. One prime example of that is Houston's incredible Texas Medical Center, making it the largest healthcare complex in the world. Dallas and Fort Worth put aside their silly rivalry to create DFW, which is largely responsible for the Metroplex being such a strategically important distribution hub. I'm positive there's a story to tell about TI. And, of course, look here in Austin where strategic investments and partnerships between UT and private industry created the tech economy we have here. Given our reputation for being reckless wildcatters, untrusty gamblers, and boastful braggarts, our past leadership was comprised of incredible stewards of our land's largesse.

By contrast, Alaska also has an oil fund for the benefit of state residents. What do they do with that? They just cut annual checks to individual households and hope the "market" takes care of itself. Of course, most residents there see it as a form of welfare check to help them stock up for winter when they can't hunt game.

This, I think, is one of the best examples of a distinctly American, or Texan, model for economic development. Sometimes long-term investments in your human capital can pay off in ways that were previously unimaginable but, unfortunately, most resource-dependent states/States don't show such foresight or discipline.

We, my fellow Texans, should be very grateful, and I sincerely hope we don't choose to go down the Louisiana, Oklahoma, or Alaska path to disinvestment, ignorance, and poverty.

Edited April 11, 2018 by bolverk

[Washpark 176]

Resource curse is just a lazy theory for politicians and civic inaction to not have foresight to diversify the economy.  It used to be called the Dutch disease which impacted currency resulting in lack of competitiveness. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Washpark

[bolverk 29409]

11 minutes ago, Washpark said:

Resource curse is just a lazy theory for politicians and civic inaction to not have foresight to diversify the economy.  It used to be called the Dutch disease which impacted currency resulting in lack of competitiveness. 

Call it whatever you want; it's not a "theory." It's an unfortunate reality and a recurring theme in resource-dependent economies all over the world and throughout history (I don't actually think you're disagreeing with me). What is the absolutely critical difference in these places is "leadership."

There have been all sorts of economic theories and models built on relative comparative (competitive) advantage by way of resources, trade, etc., but I've never seen a good study on how to build a positive "leadership" model.

Edit: Of course, I can't think of many better ways to build leadership than reinforcing educational opportunities. Virtuous cycle anyone?

Edited April 11, 2018 by bolverk

['stache 21777]

17 hours ago, Okie State said:

18 hours ago, 'stache said:

So many poor decisions over the last 30 years by hillbilly idiots who don't give a single shit about prosperity, just their narrow world view.  Thus, 30 years after the bust, and after the major O&G headquarters left for Houston, we are still primarily an O&G economy. 
We actually have a port, the Port of Catoosa near Tulsa.  Basically a trench dredged roughly along the Arkansas River, connected to the Mississippi River and thereby the Gulf of Mexico.  It does well, but not necessarily a boom.  Underutilized due to poor leadership.
Our natural beauty is vastly underrated.  We're no Colorado or California, but we're not solely a "plains" state like Kansas.  OKC is the flattest part of the state, so that's the majority image.  Some of the best features of Arkansas Ozarks exist in the eastern part of the state.  The western part of the state has southwest landscape features akin to West Texas and New Mexico.  Tulsa is surrounded by rolling hills, lakes, and plenty of natural beauty.  The most popular is Grand Lake.  It's utilized mostly by local O&G richers.  The rest of the lakes are for the poors and their pontoons and bud light.  Again, poor leadership under utilizing natural beauty.  The City of Tulsa is getting much better at this.  It's my only hope.
Aviation still has a pretty big presence here, but American Airlines is the largest, and there's always the threat of consolidation in DFW.  Healthcare has been strong, but that's not really unique with all the olds everywhere supporting expanded healthcare economies.  Nothing really separates us.
This place could be thriving, or at least be doing significantly better than it is, but the leadership are a bunch of yokels with no vision.  They only really care about gays, guns, and fucking up public schools in the name of jesus, or something like that.  It's infuriating.  I'm still here because the City of Tulsa has some leadership that is really trying to make improvements, but the state will always hold us back.  I've considered moving for a long time.  This teacher strike and inaction and insults from the state legislature have me very much with a foot out the door.  Where to?  I don't know.  But this is becoming intolerable.  

Read more  

The education issue was a big sticking point with me knowing that I didn't want my kids to be any part of that mess. This really seems like a turning point for the state.

Don't you live in a Houston suburb?  I just can't do that.  I live in a great part of Tulsa, near downtown and surrounded by upper, middle, and lower class neighborhoods.  School funding for me is not about quality of education.  My daughter goes to the local elementary school which has great teachers, and a very active pta and fundraising foundation.  I don't need the suburbs for quality.  My beef is the overall ridiculousness and unfairness of the entire system being underfunded because of Grover Norquist's fucking pledge from the goddamn 90s.  And the great teachers who we love are treated like royalty from the pta and foundation, but like absolute garbage from the state which provides the majority of the funding.

As I mentioned, the biggest quandary I'm facing is, if not here, where?  I was raised partly in Corpus Christi and have no real desire to move back.  I was raised the other half in a Tulsa suburb, which partly accounts for my disdain for suburbs.  I went to graduate school in Dallas and loved it living in my area, near Northpark Mall.  I recently looked up housing there and JFC, the cost of regular houses is absurd and have tripled since I left.  I make good money and might can pull it off, but man what a beating.  Dallas, like Houston, is becoming dominated by the suburbs in affordablity, and that just does not appeal to me.  And for the price of the house, the Dallas schools don't exactly have a glowing reputation.  The quality here is the same or better despite the disparity in funding.  Dallas is still on my list of possibilities, mostly because I still have family there and familiarity with the area.  But while school funding is better, the state legislature in Texas does a lot of the same shit as Oklahoma on the cloak room side.

I've considered a wholesale change.  I've worked a lot in D.C. in the last year and love that city.  But prices again are crazy, and I'm not sure I have a wholesale change like that in me.  The place I've strongly considered is Minneapolis.  It's top 5 in just about every good quality of life ranking, including schools, and I have at least a few friends up there.  The cold winters and distance from our families cuts against a wholesale change like that, but its still very high on my list.  

I'm just really angry and depressed right now seeing how the state legislature is acting.  I really want to either burn the place down or say fuck it, I'm out.  It runs through my head every minute of every day, and I just can't decide what's best.  As long as there is uncertainty, the status quo wins.  So I'll probably stay here forever and just hope some sanity can make the state legislature in my lifetime.  I've considered running myself but my state representative is actually one of the handful doing the right thing so it wouldn't change anything, adding to my sense of helplessness.  I can't make the rural bumpkins and suburban snowflakes give a shit about schools and to stop messing with the gays and doing its other cloak room nonsense.  My vote is meaningless in federal elections too.  I'm just stuck, and it sucks.

Edited April 11, 2018 by 'stache

[Okie State 3788]

Don't you live in a Houston suburb?  I just can't do that.  I live in a great part of Tulsa, near downtown and surrounded by upper, middle, and lower class neighborhoods.  School funding for me is not about quality of education.  My daughter goes to the local elementary school which has great teachers, and a very active pta and fundraising foundation.  I don't need the suburbs for quality.  My beef is the overall ridiculousness and unfairness of the entire system being underfunded because of Grover Norquist's fucking pledge from the goddamn 90s.  And the great teachers who we love are treated like royalty from the pta and foundation, but like absolute garbage from the state which provides the majority of the funding.
As I mentioned, the biggest quandary I'm facing is, if not here, where?  I was raised partly in Corpus Christi and have no real desire to move back.  I was raised the other half in a Tulsa suburb, which partly accounts for my disdain for suburbs.  I went to graduate school in Dallas and loved it living in my area, near Northpark Mall.  I recently looked up housing there and JFC, the cost of regular houses is absurd and have tripled since I left.  I make good money and might can pull it off, but man what a beating.  Dallas, like Houston, is becoming dominated by the suburbs in affordablity, and that just does not appeal to me.  And for the price of the house, the Dallas schools don't exactly have a glowing reputation.  The quality here is the same or better despite the disparity in funding.  Dallas is still on my list of possibilities, mostly because I still have family there and familiarity with the area.  But while school funding is better, the state legislature in Texas does a lot of the same shit as Oklahoma on the cloak room side.
I've considered a wholesale change.  I've worked a lot in D.C. in the last year and love that city.  But prices again are crazy, and I'm not sure I have a wholesale change like that in me.  The place I've strongly considered is Minneapolis.  It's top 5 in just about every good quality of life ranking, including schools, and I have at least a few friends up there.  The cold winters and distance from our families cuts against a wholesale change like that, but its still very high on my list.  
I'm just really angry and depressed right now seeing how the state legislature is acting.  I really want to either burn the place down or say fuck it, I'm out.  It runs through my head every minute of every day, and I just can't decide what's best.  As long as there is uncertainty, the status quo wins.  So I'll probably stay here forever and just hope some sanity can make the state legislature in my lifetime.  I've considered running myself but my state representative is actually one of the handful doing the right thing so it wouldn't change anything, adding to my sense of helplessness.  I can't make the rural bumpkins and suburban snowflakes give a shit about schools and to stop messing with the gays and doing its other cloak room nonsense.  My vote is meaningless in federal elections too.  I'm just stuck, and it sucks.

I am in a Houston suburb and it's far from ideal. The biggest downsides are obviously traffic, shitty suburb food, and just too many damn people everywhere making it almost impossible to go do anything. That said, the schools are good, my career is in a much better spot than it was in Oklahoma, and my kids get to spend a lot of time with their grandparents. If I could afford it, I'd live further in the city, but it's just not realistic at this point. The schools are also hit and miss once you get into the city.

There are definitely things I miss about Oklahoma, but there are also a lot of things I don't. If I had my choice, I'd probably move to Colorado. I lived there for a few years as a kid and love visiting. That would require finding a new employer though so it's not likely to happen.

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

14 hours ago, bolverk said:

There's a very real thing called the "oil curse", the "curse of oil", or the "resource curse" that makes it extremely difficult for oil-dependent economies to diversify. When the price of oil is high, there's is absolutely no other industry that can compete in terms of wages, revenues, and general economic activity. When times are bad, the town, state, region, country, has no other (or very little) recourse for growing and diversifying its economy.

Of course, there are actions that can be taken to balance an economy: invest surpluses during the good times toward education and economic diversification efforts, but it requires an incredible amount of fiscal discipline to put that money toward a very slow ROI.

Texas has been very fortunate in the way we've invested our state acquired oil money by having the foresight to pump that money into the PUF, creating the incredible world-class university that most of us on this board are lucky to have access to. Moreover, we've used our wealth to pretty much "buy" certain industries. One prime example of that is Houston's incredible Texas Medical Center, making it the largest healthcare complex in the world. Dallas and Fort Worth put aside their silly rivalry to create DFW, which is largely responsible for the Metroplex being such a strategically important distribution hub. I'm positive there's a story to tell about TI. And, of course, look here in Austin where strategic investments and partnerships between UT and private industry created the tech economy we have here. Given our reputation for being reckless wildcatters, untrusty gamblers, and boastful braggarts, our past leadership was comprised of incredible stewards of our land's largesse.

By contrast, Alaska also has an oil fund for the benefit of state residents. What do they do with that? They just cut annual checks to individual households and hope the "market" takes care of itself. Of course, most residents there see it as a form of welfare check to help them stock up for winter when they can't hunt game.

This, I think, is one of the best examples of a distinctly American, or Texan, model for economic development. Sometimes long-term investments in your human capital can pay off in ways that were previously unimaginable but, unfortunately, most resource-dependent states/States don't show such foresight or discipline.

We, my fellow Texans, should be very grateful, and I sincerely hope we don't choose to go down the Louisiana, Oklahoma, or Alaska path to disinvestment, ignorance, and poverty.

Government never fixed anything.  Didn't you know that, libtard cuckflake?

[XR4ticlone 122]

8 hours ago, Nolacycling said:

So using your small Iowa town as the example, I'm interested as to who you believe controls it now. Is it still producing the same caliber of students?

Much of the control has moved to State & Federal levels. 

It's not...but for a lot of reasons. 

1.  The people in N Iowa have changed.  There are very few small farmers like my folks left, almost none with kids school age.  Most of my peers don't live in N Iowa...hardly any remain.  We were all told there was no future in AG and to get an education and move somewhere to get better jobs.  The people left or that have moved in don't hold those same values.  

2.  Iowa does have tenure.  When we moved back for two years when our kids were in 1st-4th grades we had 2 of the 4 teachers who were very poor teachers, and had been for years as it turned out.  But they were tenured in and there was nothing the district could do about it.  It's part of the reason we left to come back to Texas as there were not other better options for education in the area any more.  

I think a lot of the people up there assume the education levels are the same...but they're not.  Testing shows that.  Iowa was always one or two in the nation in basic skills testing...it isn't like that any more.  The University of Northern Iowa has been a teachers college for years, they've went hard core PC / Leftist as well and it's showing in the teachers they're turning out.  

We, as a society, are lowering our standards.  You can argue it all you'd like, but that's what is happening.  It's part of the reason the wealth gap is growing.  You have people still holding those standards and values...and those not.  Just like in manufacturing...you cannot buy sub quality parts, use sub quality production methods and still build the same quality product.  I don't care if you're building the same identical plans...the two products are going to have a wide variance in quality.   

I'm not saying people are sub quality...but each generation that is raised with lower standards turns out the next generation that has lower standards, the job of building them up is tougher.  I see it in my own family.  I've got a couple cousins that had every opportunity in the world, their parents were not involved in their lives and it turned out badly.  Their kids are even bigger disasters, I don't even want to think what their kids will be like by the time they're 20.  The one took their kids on a cruise (no idea how they paid for it) the 3rd week of school...and then decided that it didn't make sense to send the kids for the first two weeks of school since they'd miss the 3rd.  Ironically they had my SIL as one of their teachers.  

And yes, that's a parents issue.  But I'd argue that we've failed as schools to end up at this point as well.  The whole point of throwing all this money at education is to teach up those types of kids.  We're not doing that...and most of it is because we're not teaching values and standards any more. 

  The reality is that whatever you allow, you embrace. 

[Nolacycling 893]

3 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

Much of the control has moved to State & Federal levels. 

It's not...but for a lot of reasons. 

1.  The people in N Iowa have changed.  There are very few small farmers like my folks left, almost none with kids school age.  Most of my peers don't live in N Iowa...hardly any remain.  We were all told there was no future in AG and to get an education and move somewhere to get better jobs.  The people left or that have moved in don't hold those same values.  

2.  Iowa does have tenure.  When we moved back for two years when our kids were in 1st-4th grades we had 2 of the 4 teachers who were very poor teachers, and had been for years as it turned out.  But they were tenured in and there was nothing the district could do about it.  It's part of the reason we left to come back to Texas as there were not other better options for education in the area any more.  

I think a lot of the people up there assume the education levels are the same...but they're not.  Testing shows that.  Iowa was always one or two in the nation in basic skills testing...it isn't like that any more.  The University of Northern Iowa has been a teachers college for years, they've went hard core PC / Leftist as well and it's showing in the teachers they're turning out.  

We, as a society, are lowering our standards.  You can argue it all you'd like, but that's what is happening.  It's part of the reason the wealth gap is growing.  You have people still holding those standards and values...and those not.  Just like in manufacturing...you cannot buy sub quality parts, use sub quality production methods and still build the same quality product.  I don't care if you're building the same identical plans...the two products are going to have a wide variance in quality.   

I'm not saying people are sub quality...but each generation that is raised with lower standards turns out the next generation that has lower standards, the job of building them up is tougher.  I see it in my own family.  I've got a couple cousins that had every opportunity in the world, their parents were not involved in their lives and it turned out badly.  Their kids are even bigger disasters, I don't even want to think what their kids will be like by the time they're 20.  The one took their kids on a cruise (no idea how they paid for it) the 3rd week of school...and then decided that it didn't make sense to send the kids for the first two weeks of school since they'd miss the 3rd.  Ironically they had my SIL as one of their teachers.  

And yes, that's a parents issue.  But I'd argue that we've failed as schools to end up at this point as well.  The whole point of throwing all this money at education is to teach up those types of kids.  We're not doing that...and most of it is because we're not teaching values and standards any more. 

  The reality is that whatever you allow, you embrace. 

http://www.mvlsun.com/article.php?viewID=8756

I don't know if this will inbed or not, but clicking on it will reveal the headline "There is no tenure in Iowa public schools"

Federal has very little to do with public schools. it just seems that way because politicians run on education reform.

There probably is a state board of education for textbook approval and some other things, just as there was when you were in school. The difference now is that conservatives became involved and micromanage from afar. Check out the circus clowns that are on Texas Board of Education.

As far a UNI(my mother's alma mater) going liberal, that is a common rant of conservatives with no backing except their remembrance of that liberal professor they had in college.

What is most interesting to me is that you stated "The education system is broken" and spent a good bit of time talking about lowered community morals and standards. I agree with you. The kid walking in the front door is the problem or moreso the parent(s) at home. But we blame the public school and teachers for not educating kids that have no pride in being educated or expectations from home of learning anything. 

Iowa used to be a very progressive and proud state. Now w/Steve King, Branstedt, Grassley and Joanie, it's a mess. The farmers that used to be the backbone of America sit around the Hy-Vee drinking their coffee and talking about the good old days before they go cash their gov't check.

[XR4ticlone 122]

Iowa's still more liberal than what you're painting. 

King is in the NW corner which is very conservative Dutch.  But Branstedt and Earnst are more the results of Dems running just abysmal candidates.  I don't care for Brandstedt...but the Dem Gov & candidates since his first election to Iowa Gov are a non stop dumpster fire of out of touch, morons with no personality or ability.  One of the last elected Gov on the Dem side, Culver I think (I was gone for his reign) has been helplessly mucking around from one failed job to another since loosing his re-election.  Even the YMCA fired him in less than 3 months.  I wouldn't be shocked if he's an assistant manager at a Jiffy Lube before it's over. 

Grassley is solid...or has been IMHO.  

My SIL came out of UNI a rabid Democrat after graduation.  Republicans were evil and wanted kids to be uneducated & starve.  Her wake up call was when they tried to get her to join the union and the worst, laziest teachers were the union leadership who sat down in the teachers lounge bitching about the kids as they drank coffee & smoked.  We've talked about it and she's told me that it was an endless Republican bashing during her time at UNI (she graduated in 98?) from almost every professor she had.   Of course 85% + of college professors are admitted Democrats...but if you'd like to argue that colleges are not liberal bastions...by all means waste your time.   (I know that's because they're smart...you have to be a moron to be a conservative.  And with socialism's stunning historical successes who can argue?).  

I agree, I'd love to see the Gov out of farming...hell out of everything quite frankly.   But like everything else they touch & subsequently fuck up...getting out would be disastrous (I'd still be ok with it) because they've created such a false economy for land prices, equipment prices, rent, seed & fertilizer prices...and on and on, that when they left it'd devastate current farmers and land owners.  Same as the Gov has done with their educational spending and GSL's when it comes to college prices.   FTR...if the Gov got out of farming I'd go back and farm.  There would be money in it.

OPM will be squandered.  Guaranteed.  100% of the time.  Limitless OPM even more so.  Hiding behind the shield of Gov bureaucratic unaccountably...there is seemingly endless waste. 

[Aqua Buddha 14523]

I always laugh at conservatives who use "waste" as an excuse to cut government spending but won't blink an eye at the military budget.  I laugh even harder when they point to the private sector as an example of frugality as compared to the government.  Meanwhile, the entire tech industry is a monument to wasteful spending.  Corporations can waste money at a prolific pace.

[seven 1366]

This xr4 moron is absolutely obsessed with "liberals", "leftists", and "socialists". The education system has definitely failed to develop his critical thinking skills, or maybe he's just willfully ignorant? 

[Brian Fantana 6668]

He thinks he's making brilliant, salient points and blowing everyone's mind. Remind you of anyone?

[Shmitty 112]

8 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

He thinks he's making brilliant, salient points and blowing everyone's mind. Remind you of anyone?

Rocko?  Slorch?

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20345]

Oklahoma really seems like it sucks. They're trying to put a bible in every classroom. Some are resisting.

“If there is no curricular standard that ties with that particular classroom, what would be the purpose of a Bible if not for pure indoctrination?” said Bixby Superintendent Rob Miller, a former Marine Corps artilleryman whose office walls are adorned with medals from some of the 18 marathons he’s run and a sign that reads: “Positive Vibes Only.”


https://spectrumlocalnews.com/tx/austin/news/2024/08/24/there-is-resistance-from-ok-schools-over-using-the-bible

 

[Bullneck 18987]

On 4/10/2018 at 1:42 PM, Ghost of LL said:

But in fairness, what is Oklahoma going to hitch its wagon to?  It's landlocked, and so it has no access to the economic benefits that a port brings.  It was never going to be a great banking or finance hub after Dallas was chosen to be the site for the regional Fed in 1913.  It doesn't have any natural beauty akin to Colorado or California that can be used to attract talented young people.  And yet, if you just dig down a few thousand feet, there's incredible wealth.

What was their other choice?

Oh, hai 

The Port of Tulsa has become one of my favorite pieces of trivia . . .

[atomheartbevo 89452]

56 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Oh, hai 

The Port of Tulsa has become one of my favorite pieces of trivia . . .

Ironically was going to be a part of the Trans-Texas Corridor nonsense, and stuff the Perot family was doing with inland shipping (getting stuff off and on trucks in Texas and off and on ships at Catoosa).  One of the largest inland ports in the US.