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Codaxx

Codaxx 5829

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18 hours ago, Thatguy said:

  Very true. However, if you cannot punish teams for blitzing your shit O-line its going to be a long year. Baylor game. Linebacker comes on a delayed blitz. Bijan Fucking Robinson is working to the flat with nary a defender with 15-20 yards of him. You dump that there and they think twice about bringing a guy after Bijan torches them for 30. Casey never thinks to go there. (I think) A couple plays right before the slant TD to Moore, we have a receiver outside, K-Rob at H-back, and Brewer back there too. Sark draws up a play where the receiver goes deep, K-Rob runs a wheel same side, and Brewer runs to the flat same side. We caught them blitzing which meant the safety had to come downhill to defend one of the second two options. If Casey sees that he hits K-Rob and he likely walks into the endzone as the safety had a bad angle on a player with a lot of speed. Instead Casey dumps to Brewer and the safety, who is flying up from 12 yards deep, tackles him for no gain. That's how it is right now. We suck on the line, and defenses are taking advantage of it, but we can't punish anyone for doing it. It's hard to watch.

You are both right. Elite QB doesn’t need a great OL, T Lawrence and Colt McCoy. A great OL can make mediocre QBs look great. Problem for Texas is they have below average WR, QB, and OL. It makes them all look worse. It’s like Bijan and the run game. He is 9th in yards before contact in the Big 12, but 2nd in rushing yards. Texas doesn’t run the ball, because they block the run well. They run the ball, because Bijan is good at running the ball. 

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16 hours ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Counterpoint - A&M who is starting two and have gotten better every week since they’ve started. Both playing tougher  positions at center and left tackle. Imade is literally a waste of space as he won’t be here next year. 

Allow me to provide some context...

Does rest of their OL suck, too?

No.

Center is a place where smaller guys play, anyway... If a freshman can make the ID and calls, it's less of a liability...  

They also don't have an entire offense running a new system in year 1.

 

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Had Enough

Had Enough 2085

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Interesting. Also interesting there are not any comments about this.

Some more interesting stats. We have 385 rushing attempts. Our opponents have 392 attempts.

We both have 193 yards lost. We have 16 sacks for negative 88 yards. Our opponents have 25 sacks for negative 155.

Card has lost 48. Casey 99. Bijan 29. Roschon 1 on 50 carries. Keilan -3. Brooks -1. Watson and Team -1 each.

Net out the sacks and our run game has lost 38 yards. Well that’s cause Bijan right? Unless you consider our next 3 guys have 98 Carries and 5 yards lost.

With respect to the sack aspect, other teams have been getting far better results from their QBs avoiding sacks. That’s because we have very few escapes. We don’t get much pressure, but our opponents are making us miss on occasion when we do.

On a per rush basis Bijan is right at Najee Harris in his last two years of 5.9 and 5.8. Bijan is 5.8.
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HtownHorn

HtownHorn 14763

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37 minutes ago, Had Enough said:


Interesting. Also interesting there are not any comments about this.

Some more interesting stats. We have 385 rushing attempts. Our opponents have 392 attempts.

We both have 193 yards lost. We have 16 sacks for negative 88 yards. Our opponents have 25 sacks for negative 155.

Card has lost 48. Casey 99. Bijan 29. Roschon 1 on 50 carries. Keilan -3. Brooks -1. Watson and Team -1 each.

Net out the sacks and our run game has lost 38 yards. Well that’s cause Bijan right? Unless you consider our next 3 guys have 98 Carries and 5 yards lost.

With respect to the sack aspect, other teams have been getting far better results from their QBs avoiding sacks. That’s because we have very few escapes. We don’t get much pressure, but our opponents are making us miss on occasion when we do.

On a per rush basis Bijan is right at Najee Harris in his last two years of 5.9 and 5.8. Bijan is 5.8.

It has always been the shitty QB play holding this team back offensively. The OL is serviceable, and has been since Arkansas.

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gmr548

gmr548 16609

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I still have no clue why we haven't moved onto Conner at RG to develop him and get him game reps for next season. Imade is a waste of time and space.

Because a true freshman probably isn’t going to be so much better than burning his redshirt is worth it. It’s not rocket science.
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Had Enough

Had Enough 2085

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This thread and maybe others includes some stats that reflect this Oline is serviceable.

What you got that says it’s not?

Top 4 backs each average more than 5.8 yards per carry. All but Bijan are greater than 6. Cedric Benson never averaged more than 5.6 and was twice less than 5 just for reference. Last year Najee Harris at 5.8 and 5.9 the year before. Adrian Petersons career high was 5.7 as a freshman. Breece hall is at 5.4.

The great K Walker III has double the negative yards that Bijan does and more than our entire non- QB roster. Can’t say that Bijan is breaking infinitely more tackles than Walker. So what gives?

On the sack side, they’ve had about 3 terrible drives in the OU game and the Pig game. Some complete whiffs too often. The OU game was some dumb shuffling of the parts. At least two sacks in the OSU game were due to RB play. Pass blocking was solid versus OSU, BU and KU. Rice and Tech were good. Parts of OU was damn good.

They aren’t All American but sure as shit are serviceable.

Now other than peoples eye tests I am interested in some legit numbers that say otherwise. I know there’s one that Bijan has a low number of yards before first contact. And how much of that was Baylor with their aggressive approach to stopping the run.
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44 minutes ago, Had Enough said:


This thread and maybe others includes some stats that reflect this Oline is serviceable.

What you got that says it’s not?

Top 4 backs each average more than 5.8 yards per carry. All but Bijan are greater than 6. Cedric Benson never averaged more than 5.6 and was twice less than 5 just for reference. Last year Najee Harris at 5.8 and 5.9 the year before. Adrian Petersons career high was 5.7 as a freshman. Breece hall is at 5.4.

The great K Walker III has double the negative yards that Bijan does and more than our entire non- QB roster. Can’t say that Bijan is breaking infinitely more tackles than Walker. So what gives?

On the sack side, they’ve had about 3 terrible drives in the OU game and the Pig game. Some complete whiffs too often. The OU game was some dumb shuffling of the parts. At least two sacks in the OSU game were due to RB play. Pass blocking was solid versus OSU, BU and KU. Rice and Tech were good. Parts of OU was damn good.

They aren’t All American but sure as shit are serviceable.

Now other than peoples eye tests I am interested in some legit numbers that say otherwise. I know there’s one that Bijan has a low number of yards before first contact. And how much of that was Baylor with their aggressive approach to stopping the run.

Sacks don't happen when a QB throws the ball into the dirt or gets hit on the arm or scrambles for 1 yard.

I don't have stats...  I do have plenty of views of our guys doing Ole moves or kickstepping to block air... or double teaming a guy who stands straight up while another guy twists around at full speed...  You can call that an eye test.  I watch football with eyes (usually my own)...  We are serviceable in Outside Zone when the defense doesn't blow it up.  Our IZ game is whack and the left side of the OL isn't good in pass pro.  No stats needed.

Head Coach has said what we need (OL), and I bet he has stats and eyes.

Bijan has also been bad in pass pro... he will have to get better at it next season if he wants a consensus 1st round grade.

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Had Enough

Had Enough 2085

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Sacks don't happen when a QB throws the ball into the dirt or gets hit on the arm or scrambles for 1 yard.
I don't have stats...  I do have plenty of views of our guys doing Ole moves or kickstepping to block air... or double teaming a guy who stands straight up while another guy twists around at full speed...  You can call that an eye test.  I watch football with eyes (usually my own)...  We are serviceable in Outside Zone when the defense doesn't blow it up.  Our IZ game is whack and the left side of the OL isn't good in pass pro.  No stats needed.
Head Coach has said what we need (OL), and I bet he has stats and eyes.
Bijan has also been bad in pass pro... he will have to get better at it next season if he wants a consensus 1st round grade.



Sacks do happen when a QB doesn’t get rid of the ball. Don’t know who or where that shit is quantified. Probably the same place as having the arm hit or throwing into the ground because the rush got there. Truthfully we aren’t self sacking too much, but it has happened. And all that happens for other teams too.

Our QBs have not scrambled for shit. They’ve passed on opportunities to break the pocket and run for good yardage. Actually the pocket has been broken in several cases. Rarely do they escape the pocket and avoid dead to rights sacks.

The complete free releases are inexcusable, but those are once maybe twice per game. We do get some inexplicable stuff, but we also get some damn good stuff. I don’t give a shit how fast Worthy is but you can’t run 25 yards down field and across the field without some good pass pro. He did at least 3, if not 4, times versus OU, which is probably our crappiest game of pass blocking. We’ve had half decades versus OU in which we couldn’t have done that that many times.

At some point, there needs to be consideration for what is a reasonable expectation given the circumstances and given what other teams are able to accomplish as a comparison. These mofos are in a new scheme, 3 different offenses in 3 years, they’ve changed positions in many cases since last year, they lost a key member mid-season, and yeah no shit they aren’t the most talented.

You’ve talked about complimentary football. Our offensive issues arise because our play calling, game planning and execution across all positions is not always complimentary. The two strip sacks versus KU were poor jobs by the tackles, but the QBs were secondarily responsible for ball security. The two picks were on the QB. Our dudes compliment each other by taking turns either flat out screwing up or simply not making a play.

They are serviceable and have done well enough to put us in position to win most all games. But I got you, you have your opinion.
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Eskimohorn

Eskimohorn 5642

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Sacks don't happen when a QB throws the ball into the dirt or gets hit on the arm or scrambles for 1 yard.
I don't have stats...  I do have plenty of views of our guys doing Ole moves or kickstepping to block air... or double teaming a guy who stands straight up while another guy twists around at full speed...  You can call that an eye test.  I watch football with eyes (usually my own)...  We are serviceable in Outside Zone when the defense doesn't blow it up.  Our IZ game is whack and the left side of the OL isn't good in pass pro.  No stats needed.
Head Coach has said what we need (OL), and I bet he has stats and eyes.
Bijan has also been bad in pass pro... he will have to get better at it next season if he wants a consensus 1st round grade.

Add in Bijan sporting ridiculous RAC yards in run game and is our best back since Ricky. What he could do in a full blown run game would be ridiculous.

Bottomline- we’re seeing a quartet of poor line, receiver, burnt end, and QB play which all compound our difficulties. And each unit has demoralized the others at various times.

We have seen average to below average line play since 2007. Its why we’ve chased off 2 NFL-quality backups (Gilbert, Buechele), beat another into disability (Ash), and brutalized 2 other NFL back-ups (McCoy, Ehlinger), one of whom is one of the best of all-time, who was used like a rag doll in 2007 and 2009.

There are times, years, when we lacked competent tackle play. And the Christian Jones/Okafor combo was close to being catastrophic.
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9 hours ago, Had Enough said:

 

 


Sacks do happen when a QB doesn’t get rid of the ball. Don’t know who or where that shit is quantified. Probably the same place as having the arm hit or throwing into the ground because the rush got there. Truthfully we aren’t self sacking too much, but it has happened. And all that happens for other teams too.

Our QBs have not scrambled for shit. They’ve passed on opportunities to break the pocket and run for good yardage. Actually the pocket has been broken in several cases. Rarely do they escape the pocket and avoid dead to rights sacks.

The complete free releases are inexcusable, but those are once maybe twice per game. We do get some inexplicable stuff, but we also get some damn good stuff. I don’t give a shit how fast Worthy is but you can’t run 25 yards down field and across the field without some good pass pro. He did at least 3, if not 4, times versus OU, which is probably our crappiest game of pass blocking. We’ve had half decades versus OU in which we couldn’t have done that that many times.

At some point, there needs to be consideration for what is a reasonable expectation given the circumstances and given what other teams are able to accomplish as a comparison. These mofos are in a new scheme, 3 different offenses in 3 years, they’ve changed positions in many cases since last year, they lost a key member mid-season, and yeah no shit they aren’t the most talented.

You’ve talked about complimentary football. Our offensive issues arise because our play calling, game planning and execution across all positions is not always complimentary. The two strip sacks versus KU were poor jobs by the tackles, but the QBs were secondarily responsible for ball security. The two picks were on the QB. Our dudes compliment each other by taking turns either flat out screwing up or simply not making a play.

They are serviceable and have done well enough to put us in position to win most all games. But I got you, you have your opinion.

Look at it like this...  What QB in the big 12 would have this team winning 8 games instead of 4?

What OL unit.

If you were going to swap one  position with any team in the big 12, what position would it be?

The teams that are winning aren't winning on QB play.  

And I agree, QB stirs the drink... When the cup isn't getting smashed.

We can talk QB... One has a bad thumb on his throwing hand... And the guy who started the season at QB can't beat out that bad thumb... Because that guy requires better OL play to be effective.

 

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Had Enough

Had Enough 2085

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Look at it like this...  What QB in the big 12 would have this team winning 8 games instead of 4?
What OL unit.
If you were going to swap one  position with any team in the big 12, what position would it be?
The teams that are winning aren't winning on QB play.  
And I agree, QB stirs the drink... When the cup isn't getting smashed.
We can talk QB... One has a bad thumb on his throwing hand... And the guy who started the season at QB can't beat out that bad thumb... Because that guy requires better OL play to be effective.
 

If we trading out units, the Dline is the first one out. Three sacks in the last four games. One lost one yard. One lost two. That said I don’t blame it all on them.

QBs. It’s hard to say. Actually impossible since they’re not here. But I can tell you Caleb Will has two game breaking TD runs when he was dead to rights. Free, unblocked defenders squared up in his face. I haven’t seen Spencer Sanders throw a critical pick in spite of all his flaws. But he can rely on his D.

I’m not saying our QB play is terrible, but we miss very critical very takeable plays in each game. I’m not one to give up on Card yet and it was reasonable to give him an opportunity but that ultimately was a net negative.

We simply lose as a team. One play it’s this guy or unit then the next it’s someone else. We were basically one play away in each game from winning. It could have come from anywhere. Somebody needs to make it.
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14 minutes ago, Had Enough said:


If we trading out units, the Dline is the first one out. Three sacks in the last four games. One lost one yard. One lost two. That said I don’t blame it all on them.

QBs. It’s hard to say. Actually impossible since they’re not here. But I can tell you Caleb Will has two game breaking TD runs when he was dead to rights. Free, unblocked defenders squared up in his face. I haven’t seen Spencer Sanders throw a critical pick in spite of all his flaws. But he can rely on his D.

I’m not saying our QB play is terrible, but we miss very critical very takeable plays in each game. I’m not one to give up on Card yet and it was reasonable to give him an opportunity but that ultimately was a net negative.

We simply lose as a team. One play it’s this guy or unit then the next it’s someone else. We were basically one play away in each game from winning. It could have come from anywhere. Somebody needs to make it.

I think our DL would crush if playing in a traditional 4 DL system...  That part *is* coaching... but it's scheme, and we're not changing the scheme.  Our DL is not asked to be attackers and sackers (that whole stats thing) like they were recruited to be.  If you put our DL in at Baylor, they'd probably still not have a bunch of stats... but not because they're not good... but because Aranda likes to attack from wherever he can - usually with fast guys.  Same at Iowa State (see where I'm going here?).  The better defenses in the league are running 3  Dlinemen as disruptors and letting the LBs and Safeties do the work - hopefully unblocked from who knows where.

If Caleb Williams were QB here, he would also get told not to take off running, but let the playmakers make the plays. Spencer Rattler was struggling with pressure given up by the ou line.  Caleb takes off.  That is not what Sark preaches at all.  I've seen Casey not take off when he had 20 yards of air in front of him... If he were playing in Herman's offense, those would be rushing TDs.

If I'm making replacements, it's at OT.  Move Kerstetter back to RG. Move Christian Jones to backup RT. Bring in two new OTs that are big and can move...  Kerstetter isn't big and Christian Jones can't move...  Then I'd run the shit out of the ball and open up the RPO/PA game.  Since Kerstetter will be gone, we'll be ok with the guards we have.  We need some OTs that can execute Inside Zone and pass block when the defense does anything other than play straight ahead.

 

So let me be clear... it's not that all the players are all terrible at football.  Can't be.  They got here. However, they are miscast / misfit for what our strategic plan is. 

Yes, Chris Ash (or even I) could come in and make the DL look better tomorrow. Put a 46 loaded box out there and tell our DBs to play man and see who wins...  But that could be disastrous...  or run a 425 and tell the DL "Go forward" and tell the LBs to clean up (still a challenge) while the DBs keep everything in front of them... (this is what I would do, and it is *close* to what this current 335 looks like, but with actual DT/DE assignments focused on stopping the run and pressuring the pass.).  But that is not what we're going to run long-term, so we have to get a better fit of players for the scheme.  I understand why teams are not putting a lot of DL on the field... they're not fast/flexible enough to move around so will eventually get formationed into nothingness, AND they attract blockers when they aren't getting motioned into no-man's land.

Same on offense...  We could put RoJo or Casey in at QB and run QB power or Outside Zone or stretch plays with a bootleg... Just run away from the weaknesses (bring back Jerrod Heard, then...) We're not going to do that, so this OL doesn't fit.

If you want to see Hudson Card (or any good pocket passer) succeed, the OL has to change... a lot. (Probably not going to happen enough in one offseason, but we will improve.)

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Had Enough

Had Enough 2085

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I think our DL would crush if playing in a traditional 4 DL system...  That part *is* coaching... but it's scheme, and we're not changing the scheme.  Our DL is not asked to be attackers and sackers (that whole stats thing) like they were recruited to be.  If you put our DL in at Baylor, they'd probably still not have a bunch of stats... but not because they're not good... but because Aranda likes to attack from wherever he can - usually with fast guys.  Same at Iowa State (see where I'm going here?).  The better defenses in the league are running 3  Dlinemen as disruptors and letting the LBs and Safeties do the work - hopefully unblocked from who knows where.
If Caleb Williams were QB here, he would also get told not to take off running, but let the playmakers make the plays. Spencer Rattler was struggling with pressure given up by the ou line.  Caleb takes off.  That is not what Sark preaches at all.  I've seen Casey not take off when he had 20 yards of air in front of him... If he were playing in Herman's offense, those would be rushing TDs.
If I'm making replacements, it's at OT.  Move Kerstetter back to RG. Move Christian Jones to backup RT. Bring in two new OTs that are big and can move...  Kerstetter isn't big and Christian Jones can't move...  Then I'd run the shit out of the ball and open up the RPO/PA game.  Since Kerstetter will be gone, we'll be ok with the guards we have.  We need some OTs that can execute Inside Zone and pass block when the defense does anything other than play straight ahead.
 
So let me be clear... it's not that all the players are all terrible at football.  Can't be.  They got here. However, they are miscast / misfit for what our strategic plan is. 
Yes, Chris Ash (or even I) could come in and make the DL look better tomorrow. Put a 46 loaded box out there and tell our DBs to play man and see who wins...  But that could be disastrous...  or run a 425 and tell the DL "Go forward" and tell the LBs to clean up (still a challenge) while the DBs keep everything in front of them... (this is what I would do, and it is *close* to what this current 335 looks like, but with actual DT/DE assignments focused on stopping the run and pressuring the pass.).  But that is not what we're going to run long-term, so we have to get a better fit of players for the scheme.  I understand why teams are not putting a lot of DL on the field... they're not fast/flexible enough to move around so will eventually get formationed into nothingness, AND they attract blockers when they aren't getting motioned into no-man's land.
Same on offense...  We could put RoJo or Casey in at QB and run QB power or Outside Zone or stretch plays with a bootleg... Just run away from the weaknesses (bring back Jerrod Heard, then...) We're not going to do that, so this OL doesn't fit.
If you want to see Hudson Card (or any good pocket passer) succeed, the OL has to change... a lot. (Probably not going to happen enough in one offseason, but we will improve.)

I’m not down on our individual talent on the DL necessarily and would prefer a 4 down front but like you said we’re not changing scheme. What we’re doing is not working. That starts upfront. While the offense has its issues, the defense has been more of an issue. And we’ve been close enough we just need teammates to pick each other up when one fails.

Offense or defense. These guys weren’t recruited for the current schemes and don’t necessarily fit it. But they’re the players we have so we have to figure out how to produce positive outcomes. And we’ve been so damn close 4 times and decently positioned at halftime on a 5th.

I agree the QBs have been hesitant to take off at least in part due to what they’re asked to do. I think it caused the QBs to fight their instincts on occasion too. Sark has slowly backed off that a bit I think and learning that we aren’t Bama. Bijan being out may be helpful in that others will be forced to step up but also using all our dudes. Course, we can’t have all of Bijans backups out either. I’ve been wanting more TE, Roschon/Keilan/wildcat, jet sweep type usage all season. Part of that being quick hitting stuff to help both Oline and QB. The two throws to Brewer last week were an example. That RPO to Brewer for 15. That could have helped tremendously during all of our many 3 and outs.

For this year and this team, we need to figure out how to win. My expectations for this Oline were never to be top notch. I had hoped for noticeable improvement. We aren’t getting that, but they were damn good at Rice and Tech for which many posters never gave credit. Then Okafor got hurt. We moved dudes around vs OU and proceeded to settle the lineup after that. They were absolutely serviceable after OU. Not perfect by any stretch, but BU, OSU, and ISU are very solid defenses. And really for about 3/4 of the OU game, they were solid.

Like many of us punkasses on here, I’m a self proclaimed expert. So there. But actually I have watched many of the games more than once, slowed it down, and replayed it. I see the complete whiffs, the cluttered pockets, but I also see the times when we’ve got hat on hat from our front 5 but something else screws it up. Part of that to your point is that the ISUs and BUs and even OSU this year fly to ball so they’ll blow up stuff and make plays themselves. But also agree these aren’t the guys or types of guys for our future.

This years a disappointment but I’m still in it to win it. 6-6 here we come.
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gmr548

gmr548 16609

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On 11/12/2021 at 11:54 AM, BurntOrange&White said:

I still have no clue why we haven't moved onto Conner at RG to develop him and get him game reps for next season. Imade is a waste of time and space.

Going back to this, they burned Connor's redshirt once Junior went down. I really wish they wouldn't have done that, but since they did, I'm absolutely with you that he should play as much as possible against KSU. I think you let Imade start on senior day and just sit Angilau, no sense trotting him out for a meaningless game.

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burdine

burdine 522

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Yeah not awesome or anything but I like to look at process and development more than outcomes like wins and losses in thinking about evaluating the staff this early in their regime.

For years, we have suffered from a lack of development on the OL and have identified it as one of the key things holding this program back.

Here's hoping OL recruits see it too.

The record this season has been terrible and incredibly frustrating.  

However, I do think the OL going from "flat out embarrassing" to "somewhat competent" does actually represent tangible progress.

 

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