Texas O-line talk

[Spawn of Cthulhu 2241]

I'd just be happy if we had an average line for once.

[satyanash 15434]

Ian Boyd: Quantifying Texas' upgrades on the OL

After observing Patrick Vahe's play over the course of 2017 I determined to take on another "fun" project. I watched every sack that Texas gave up during the 2017 season and tried to determine what the breakdown was, as best as I could given that I'm less familiar with protection schemes. Here were the results I found...

Now let me start by offering a few clarifying notes:

- I counted plays in which the QBs went through a progression, couldn't find anyone, and then got tackled as "coverage sacks." This obviously defers blame from the OL to the QB or WRs but it should be noted that the OL weren't always totally innocent here, it's just that they did at least hold up the rush long enough for the QB to get a look around.

- Most of the coverage sacks involved Shane Buechele for the obvious reason that Sam Ehlinger tended to get out of the pocket faster and then pick up yardage much more easily than did Buechele.

- Some of the "tackle beat" plays included the QB having some time to make a read but in each instance the tackle allowed the DE to beat him with a pass-rush move so I counted them as being on the tackle.

- I decided to avoid apportioning blame on most of the beats inside that involved some kind of failure or breakdown because it's hard to divvy out responsibility on plays like that. However, I did want to note that there multiple instances in which there was some kind of breakdown but that Cuney was also physically bested and those tended to be costly. Included in that were the play where Ehlinger was hit against OSU, fumbled, and recovered at midfield for a 34 yard loss AND the play where Ehlinger was tackled on a rollout and made that horrendous decision that led to a pick-6 against West Virginia. Obviously Cuney didn't make Ehlinger fumble or throw that ball so it's not all on him, but it is notable that he was involved in some catastrophic plays.

- The "miscellaneous missed assignment" include plays like one the disasters at Maryland where a guy was given a free shot through the B-gap at Buechele and the play where Buechele passed up on an open hitch and then got drilled at the Texas one-yard line on that first play. I also included plays where it seemed like a WR or RB committed an error that led to the breakdown. This seems like an area for easy and obvious improvement in year two of the offense.

- I didn't count holds which may shed some additional light on which guys were getting beat and hurting the offense. I suspect that Kerstetter's performance would look more questionable if we surveyed all of those penalties but I don't know for sure without doing the research.

Now here are the big takeaways I had from watching this.

- Texas puts a lot on the tackles to hold up on the edge and none of them were particularly good at it. Denzel Okafor gave up seven sacks in two games when he had to face Porter Gustin (USC) and Obo Okoronkwo (OU) and was just completely overmatched against good edge-rushers without help from an RB or OG. Elijah Rodriguez drew a tough assignment in Missouri, who had a better DL than most B12 teams, but he didn't hold up outside much better by this metric than anyone else on the roster.

Derek Kerstetter had the best performance in terms of sacks given up of all the tackles despite playing as a freshman and undersized when you factor in how many starts he had compared to these other guys. Tristan Nickelson was actually kinda solid, maybe not good but he wasn't the walking disaster some of the other guys were, I think the staff's hesitation with him came more for his run blocking. Ideally you want a LT that can play on an island and then a RT that isn't a disaster against a typical edge-rusher. Texas barely managed to find the latter.

- Interior breakdowns are often the most disastrous although a blindside hit obviously can carry a lot of risk for a variety of reasons (QB doesn't see it coming). Texas should be much better at avoiding these with a more experienced and more talented squad next year.

- For Kerstetter to move inside would probably say a lot about how Denzel Okafor is coming along. Last year Kersetter was no doubt the superior player and there'd be no reason to move him unless Okafor or E-Rod were really showing something at tackle. Or Cosmi, if that were to happen.

- It's hard to overstate the value of adding a quality tackle in Calvin Anderson. Even if he only lifts Texas up to the point where they lack an "island" tackle but at least have guys on both edges that aren't sieves that's a huge plus and upgrade over where they were a year ago. Especially when you consider that Texas will have improved TE play and more protection savvy RBs to help things along, it'll be hard to attack this OL in protection unless you have multiple good pass-rushers or can hide where your top pass-rusher is coming from. Otherwise Texas will easily be able to shade help where needed and hold up elsewhere.

- It kinda seems like Texas could gain a lot in terms of avoiding negative plays by having a "go-to" WR (or two) that they can reliably find or throw at even if "covered." Hopefully they get both LJH and Johnson on the field together and the QB can either throw it at Johnson on the sideline or find LJH breaking open while isolated inside based on where the numerical advantage is. Or to that point, Texas will also gain a lot here from having QBs that know how to get the ball out quickly on normal passing concepts, both Buechele and Ehlinger seemed to miss some things last year.

[Machinator 32102]

7 hours ago, satyanash said:

Ian Boyd: Quantifying Texas' upgrades on the OL

 

  Hide contents

After observing Patrick Vahe's play over the course of 2017 I determined to take on another "fun" project. I watched every sack that Texas gave up during the 2017 season and tried to determine what the breakdown was, as best as I could given that I'm less familiar with protection schemes. Here were the results I found...

Now let me start by offering a few clarifying notes:

- I counted plays in which the QBs went through a progression, couldn't find anyone, and then got tackled as "coverage sacks." This obviously defers blame from the OL to the QB or WRs but it should be noted that the OL weren't always totally innocent here, it's just that they did at least hold up the rush long enough for the QB to get a look around.

- Most of the coverage sacks involved Shane Buechele for the obvious reason that Sam Ehlinger tended to get out of the pocket faster and then pick up yardage much more easily than did Buechele.

- Some of the "tackle beat" plays included the QB having some time to make a read but in each instance the tackle allowed the DE to beat him with a pass-rush move so I counted them as being on the tackle.

- I decided to avoid apportioning blame on most of the beats inside that involved some kind of failure or breakdown because it's hard to divvy out responsibility on plays like that. However, I did want to note that there multiple instances in which there was some kind of breakdown but that Cuney was also physically bested and those tended to be costly. Included in that were the play where Ehlinger was hit against OSU, fumbled, and recovered at midfield for a 34 yard loss AND the play where Ehlinger was tackled on a rollout and made that horrendous decision that led to a pick-6 against West Virginia. Obviously Cuney didn't make Ehlinger fumble or throw that ball so it's not all on him, but it is notable that he was involved in some catastrophic plays.

- The "miscellaneous missed assignment" include plays like one the disasters at Maryland where a guy was given a free shot through the B-gap at Buechele and the play where Buechele passed up on an open hitch and then got drilled at the Texas one-yard line on that first play. I also included plays where it seemed like a WR or RB committed an error that led to the breakdown. This seems like an area for easy and obvious improvement in year two of the offense.

- I didn't count holds which may shed some additional light on which guys were getting beat and hurting the offense. I suspect that Kerstetter's performance would look more questionable if we surveyed all of those penalties but I don't know for sure without doing the research.

Now here are the big takeaways I had from watching this.

- Texas puts a lot on the tackles to hold up on the edge and none of them were particularly good at it. Denzel Okafor gave up seven sacks in two games when he had to face Porter Gustin (USC) and Obo Okoronkwo (OU) and was just completely overmatched against good edge-rushers without help from an RB or OG. Elijah Rodriguez drew a tough assignment in Missouri, who had a better DL than most B12 teams, but he didn't hold up outside much better by this metric than anyone else on the roster.

Derek Kerstetter had the best performance in terms of sacks given up of all the tackles despite playing as a freshman and undersized when you factor in how many starts he had compared to these other guys. Tristan Nickelson was actually kinda solid, maybe not good but he wasn't the walking disaster some of the other guys were, I think the staff's hesitation with him came more for his run blocking. Ideally you want a LT that can play on an island and then a RT that isn't a disaster against a typical edge-rusher. Texas barely managed to find the latter.

- Interior breakdowns are often the most disastrous although a blindside hit obviously can carry a lot of risk for a variety of reasons (QB doesn't see it coming). Texas should be much better at avoiding these with a more experienced and more talented squad next year.

- For Kerstetter to move inside would probably say a lot about how Denzel Okafor is coming along. Last year Kersetter was no doubt the superior player and there'd be no reason to move him unless Okafor or E-Rod were really showing something at tackle. Or Cosmi, if that were to happen.

- It's hard to overstate the value of adding a quality tackle in Calvin Anderson. Even if he only lifts Texas up to the point where they lack an "island" tackle but at least have guys on both edges that aren't sieves that's a huge plus and upgrade over where they were a year ago. Especially when you consider that Texas will have improved TE play and more protection savvy RBs to help things along, it'll be hard to attack this OL in protection unless you have multiple good pass-rushers or can hide where your top pass-rusher is coming from. Otherwise Texas will easily be able to shade help where needed and hold up elsewhere.

- It kinda seems like Texas could gain a lot in terms of avoiding negative plays by having a "go-to" WR (or two) that they can reliably find or throw at even if "covered." Hopefully they get both LJH and Johnson on the field together and the QB can either throw it at Johnson on the sideline or find LJH breaking open while isolated inside based on where the numerical advantage is. Or to that point, Texas will also gain a lot here from having QBs that know how to get the ball out quickly on normal passing concepts, both Buechele and Ehlinger seemed to miss some things last year.

 

imgur pics don't show on the web anymore.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Machinator

[Neonmoon 38130]

The OL was garbage last year. That being said, Buchele is terrible. For some reason, when he is our QB, no one ever gets open. Maybe because he doesn’t know how to throw someone open. He’s just not a good college QB

[BigBenBamboozle 1957]

30 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

The OL was garbage last year. That being said, Buchele is terrible. For some reason, when he is our QB, no one ever gets open. Maybe because he doesn’t know how to throw someone open. He’s just not a good college QB

Add to his reluctance to lead receivers through their routes with good anticipation, the dude just doesn't have any pocket awareness or escapability. 

[F250 29182]

The lack of enthusiasm in this thread doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling for next season.

[satyanash 15434]

On 4/12/2018 at 4:20 PM, Machinator said:

imgur pics don't show on the web anymore.

Do they not? Looks just fine on Chrome.

[Neonmoon 38130]

Burning trash fire 

[Tired of Lurking 637]

Whoever the five is on this current drive is our best combination so far. Sam has had a clean pocket the whole time. (6ish minutes of 2nd quarter - noting for my rewatch)

[Neonmoon 38130]

Cosmi, Vahe, Shack, Okafor, Kerstetter?

[Tired of Lurking 637]

That would be gruntling, especially for the future. Anderson replacing Cosmi this year and Okafor excelling in his natural position. Plug in Grandy or Husdon for Vahe eventually and hot damn, a line even I can run behind.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Tired of Lurking

[Machinator 32102]

2 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Cosmi, Vahe, Shack, Okafor, Kerstetter?

If Anderson goes down? It's workable.

But once again we find ourselves in a position where the health of our offense relies on the status of the first-string LT.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Machinator

[Machinator 32102]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Cosmi, Vahe, Shack, Okafor, Kerstetter?

 

2 hours ago, Machinator said:

If Anderson goes down? It's workable.

But once again we find ourselves in a position where the health of our offense relies on the status of the first-string LT.

Actually, I forgot about Hudson. If he stays healthy and progresses like I think he can, our best starting 5 is probably Anderson-Vahe-Shack-Hudson-Kerstetter.

Okafor, Rodriguez, and maybe Grandy the guards off the bench.

Cosmi the first tackle off the bench. Don't really have an option after that, unfortunately, even Cosmi probably needs another year to develop. I guess we'd throw Okafor or Rodriguez in and hope for the best.

Center... um... I guess Kerstetter the backup and Rodriguez the emergency guy.

[Neonmoon 38130]

2 hours ago, Machinator said:

If Anderson goes down? It's workable.

But once again we find ourselves in a position where the health of our offense relies on the status of the first-string LT.

No. I was guessing the OL on the field when they looked decent. I could tell  Vahe, Shack, Okafor. But couldn’t see who the tackles were. Just guessing Cosmi and Kerstetter. 

 

[Machinator 32102]

Just now, Neonmoon said:

No. I was guessing the OL on the field when they looked decent. I could tell  Vahe, Shack, Okafor. But couldn’t see who the tackles were. Just guessing Cosmi and Kerstetter. 

 

Gotcha.

[Pato del Muerto 53377]

I’m gonna take herman at his word that when the starting 5 were in together, they worked well. Then I’ll assume that adding Anderson will make them even better. 

So if this fall, they aren’t at least average, tom is nothing but a bullshit artist. 

[Auto Driller 2563]

44 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

I’m gonna take herman at his word that when the starting 5 were in together, they worked well. Then I’ll assume that adding Anderson will make them even better. 

So if this fall, they aren’t at least average, tom is nothing but a bullshit artist. 

Last year he said it was the best line he had seen since 2014 Ohio State so I’d take his comments with a grain of salt.

[Majorcholas 557]

Guys gotta remember that they were mismatching and swapping all night. If one guy gets beat it makes the whole line look like ass my dude. We will get 5 out there to start that will be solid. (Although I did see vahe struggle a few times in pass pro)

if someone goes down then we get significantly worse. But we have at least one servicble backup at tackle (Cosmi) and a few at guard (Grandy who we didn’t get to see and Hudson?)

Edited April 22, 2018 by Majorcholas
Stupid autocorrect

[TKthunder2 5058]

4 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Cosmi, Vahe, Shack, Okafor, Kerstetter?

That was the best lineup.

I was unimpressed with ERod but saw some good work out of Okafor.  Cosmi gets an incomplete.  Didn’t see anything overly good or bad from Shack/Kersetter and only 1 memorable bad play from Vahe.  Add Anderson, Grandy, and Hudson to these six and we almost have a solid 2 deep (only missing a fourth tackle).

[ausjala 101]

My question is why does it seem we always have only 8 or 9 healthy O-linemen? What are we feeding these guys? Man, if we can just get some people healthy, make it through fall camp w/o significant injuries, maybe we could actually see improvement. The 9/10 win predictions aren't happening without it.

[Bevo 13832]

1 hour ago, ausjala said:

My question is why does it seem we always have only 8 or 9 healthy O-linemen? What are we feeding these guys? Man, if we can just get some people healthy, make it through fall camp w/o significant injuries, maybe we could actually see improvement. The 9/10 win predictions aren't happening without it.

A lot of it is because we are bringing in approximately 30 freshmen. This means that there are only about 55 scholarship players on the roster who have any experience. That is only enough for a 2 deep and if anyone gets injured or if anyone sucks then there isn't even a true 2 deep.

[BigHorn'13 3480]

I love how hard Rodriguez worked to come back from injuries. It feels like he's been here forever. That said, I hope he doesn't play much this season. Also backup center is ulcer inducing.

[Elmer_Fudd 22961]

So was Grandy's concussion pretty serious?  Seems like it happened early in camp.  

[Neonmoon 38130]

I wonder if we go after the Florida OL  grad transfer Andrew Mike. He wasn’t a starter but could provide some depth. 

[Goodman 3280]

19 minutes ago, Elmer_Fudd said:

So was Grandy's concussion pretty serious?  Seems like it happened early in camp.  

I think it has more to do with making sure he is 100% for summer/fall. Coaches love what they saw from him so far. 

[Disco Missile 456]

6 hours ago, ausjala said:

My question is why does it seem we always have only 8 or 9 healthy O-linemen? What are we feeding these guys? Man, if we can just get some people healthy, make it through fall camp w/o significant injuries, maybe we could actually see improvement. The 9/10 win predictions aren't happening without it.

Last year we had 15 scholarship linemen.
Cuney, CW55, McMillon, Nickelson, and Anderson all departed. 

That left our Spring roster looking like this:

SR: Rodriguez, Vahe
JR: Urquidez, Okafor, Imade, Shackelford
SO: Kerstetter, Hudson, Grandy (out with head injury)
RsFR: Cosmi

We add these guys in the fall, bringing us back to 15:
Angilau, Ghirmai, Moore, Jones, and Anderson.

 

The good news is that our OL roster is finally showing good depth and stability as well as talent. The bad news is that we're light on talented upperclassmen (yet again) and Herman's recent recruiting won't have a real effect until 2019-2020.

Anderson is really the wild card. If he plays like he has and stays healthy, our young guys have a rock  at LT to solidify the line. If he doesn't pan out, our improvement over last year won't be so dramatic.

 

[Disco Missile 456]

I wasn't consistent with RS status.
Urquidez, Imade, and Hudson are all RS Sophomores.

Vahe, Okafor, and Shackelford are the only true upperclassmen on the OL.

[futureman 22678]

has there been anything definitive yet on angilau’s mission timeline?

[UT Lawnghorn 758]

12 hours ago, Majorcholas said:

Guys gotta remember that they were mismatching and swapping all night. If one guy gets beat it makes the whole line look like ass my dude. We will get 5 out there to start that will be solid. (Although I did see vahe struggle a few times in pass pro)

if someone goes down then we get significantly worse. But we have at least one servicble backup at tackle (Cosmi) and a few at guard (Grandy who we didn’t get to see and Hudson?)

While true and Urquidez, who will likely never see a meaningful snap, was a huge part of there OL looking shitty, I don’t think we’ll find a solid OL this year. Neither Vahe or Shack are the type of players that make up a solid OL. They showed way too many errors for 3rd and 4th year OL. I think we should hope for average this year if most of our guys can stay healthy. Plain and simple, we don’t have a whole lot of talent on our OL and most of our best talent is very young.

[Bevo 13832]

Vahe and Shack will be better this year and we have Okafor, Grandy and Hudson who could possibly play. Plus, we are looking at the tOSU grad transfer. And, our schemes and coaching are much improved.

All that considered our line should not be a problem once Anderson solidifies the left side allowing guys to move to their natural positions. I see absolutely no problem with Anderson/Okafor/Shack/Hudson/Kerstetter with Grandy/Vahe/grad transfer/Rodriquez and Freshmen as depth.  And I think if we can get the tOSU grad transfer our line could match up with anyone.

[Machinator 32102]

Once again, nobody has provided evidence that the Ohio State OL (Burrell) is a grad transfer (who can play immediately), or that we are seriously pursuing him beyond a Twitter follow.

Edit: unless you're talking about Kevin Feder, but I don't know if there's been any buzz about him and Texas.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Machinator

[UT Lawnghorn 758]

9 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Vahe and Shack will be better this year and we have Okafor, Grandy and Hudson who could possibly play. Plus, we are looking at the tOSU grad transfer. And, our schemes and coaching are much improved.

All that considered our line should not be a problem once Anderson solidifies the left side allowing guys to move to their natural positions. I see absolutely no problem with Anderson/Okafor/Shack/Hudson/Kerstetter with Grandy/Vahe/grad transfer/Rodriquez and Freshmen as depth.  And I think if we can get the tOSU grad transfer our line could match up with anyone.

Vahe and Shack haven’t improved much from their freshman years. Idk why everyone assumes they’ll get way better all of a sudden. Hand is good OL coach; not a miracle worker.

and you’re also assuming that’s hudson and Okafor become quality Guards. I’m hopeful one of them will bhecome that, but we have no evidence that will happen and expecting both of them will is just desperate hope. Our starting 5 could be average, but as soon as an injury hits, we get in trouble real quick.

[satyanash 15434]

Vahe and Shack will be better this year and we have Okafor, Grandy and Hudson who could possibly play. Plus, we are looking at the tOSU grad transfer. And, our schemes and coaching are much improved.
All that considered our line should not be a problem once Anderson solidifies the left side allowing guys to move to their natural positions. I see absolutely no problem with Anderson/Okafor/Shack/Hudson/Kerstetter with Grandy/Vahe/grad transfer/Rodriquez and Freshmen as depth.  And I think if we can get the tOSU grad transfer our line could match up with anyone.

Lot of assumptions embedded in your scenario.

[Neonmoon 38130]

Vahe is serviceable. He can have good plays but then shit the bed the next play. Same with Shack. 

They need to be upgraded. Vahe won’t be because he’s a senior. He’s gone after this year. And I don’t see anyone replacing him. Grandy or Hudson may split time but not overtake him fully. 

I can see Shack being overtaken easily. He’s not great at snapping the ball or the whole blocking thing 

 

[Machinator 32102]

Posted in the spring game thread, but if anyone feels like watching the tape for the best O line units, here they are from the first half:

White: Okafor-Vahe-Shack-ERod-Kerstetter (1)

Orange: Cosmi-Erod-Kerstetter-Imade-Urquidez (2)

White: Cosmi-Erod-Kerstetter-Imade-Urquidez (2)

Orange: Okafor-Vahe-Shack-Imade-Urquidez (3)

White: Cosmi-Vahe-ERod-Imade-Okafor (4)

Orange: Cosmi-Vahe-Shack-Erod-Kerstetter (5)

White: Cosmi-Erod-Kerstetter-Imade-Urquidez (2)

Orange: Okafor-Vahe-Shack-Imade-Urquidez (3)

White: Okafor-Vahe-Shack-Erod-Kerstetter (1)

Orange: Cosmi-Erod-Kerstetter-Imade-Okafor (6)

White: Cosmi-Vahe-Shack-Imade-Kerstetter (7)

I numbered all of the unique lineups. By comparison, we had 8 different starting lineups last season.

[Bevo 13832]

2 hours ago, UT Lawnghorn said:

Vahe and Shack haven’t improved much from their freshman years. Idk why everyone assumes they’ll get way better all of a sudden. Hand is good OL coach; not a miracle worker.

and you’re also assuming that’s hudson and Okafor become quality Guards. I’m hopeful one of them will bhecome that, but we have no evidence that will happen and expecting both of them will is just desperate hope. Our starting 5 could be average, but as soon as an injury hits, we get in trouble real quick.

Our starting left tackle through the spring isn't going to the bench and assuming Hudson and Grandy are better than Rodriguez isn't much of a reach.

[Bevo 13832]

1 hour ago, longhornmatt said:

Our starting left tackle in the spring game allowed like 7 sacks in two games against USC and OU last year before being benched for Tristan Nickelson and Kerstetter (who was underweight, recruited as an interior player,  and supposed to redshirt).   And he’s actually not the weakest link in our spring starting OL.

This is still a bad situation.  At a minimum, Anderson and Hudson/Grandy both need to provide big time upgrades at two starting positions for the line to not be bad again.  I think Anderson likely will be that upgrade, but even with him people are placing wildly out of whack expectations on an honorable mention All-CUSA player.  He will be a good LT, not Tony Boselli cratering in the left side of the defense on every snap.

Our line was serviceable with Connor and will be more than serviceable with Anderson and Hudson/Grandy and a more experienced Kerstetter, Cosmi, Vaje, Shack, and Okafor. It would actually be good with a grad transfer at Center. Putting it another way, Hudson/Grandy, Kerstetter, Anderson is a solid starting 3. Vaje and Shack are shaky but I would expect improvement. Throw in Okafor and a grad transfer and we will actually be good. So I expect somewhere between serviceable and good.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

11 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Anderson is the only one you can actually say is good, and even with him there is the  uncertainty of transitioning to a new team and new offensive system against a higher level of competition.  Labeling the other ones as components of a good OL requires assumptions that they’re going to improve - a lot - or assumptions that guys who haven’t even played must be good.

It’s the off-season. Past performance, experience level or injury status are not calculated into fan expectations. 

[UT Lawnghorn 758]

1 hour ago, Bevo said:

Our line was serviceable with Connor and will be more than serviceable with Anderson and Hudson/Grandy and a more experienced Kerstetter, Cosmi, Vaje, Shack, and Okafor. It would actually be good with a grad transfer at Center. Putting it another way, Hudson/Grandy, Kerstetter, Anderson is a solid starting 3. Vaje and Shack are shaky but I would expect improvement. Throw in Okafor and a grad transfer and we will actually be good. So I expect somewhere between serviceable and good.

You have no idea if Hudson/Grandy are  serviceable because you’ve never seen them play and they haven’t done anything even this offseason .

anderson is good. Kerstetter did well for a TR FR but there’s a big difference between that and actually playing well for a P5 OT. He needs to take some steps forward, including getting some movement in the run game. He’s still seems a little light in the pants at this point. So basically, we have one good OL some guys with experience that we know aren’t all that good and some guys with promise who are very low on experience and it would take a fairly big jump for them to be good this year.

also, our OL was not serviceable with Williams. It sucked ass against USC while he was healthy and against Maryland.  

serviceable would be a huge improvement this year and I see almost no scenario in which our OL is actually good.

Edited April 22, 2018 by UT Lawnghorn

[Bevo14 8468]

These guys are gonna improve enough because I refuse to watch them fuck away another season.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Bevo14

[Sidney Sherman 66]

On 4/8/2018 at 12:01 PM, cmontexas said:

Yeah I could see

Anderson

Vahe

Kerstetter

Rodriguez

Okafor

-OR-

Anderson

Vahe

Shack

Okafor

Kerstetter

I would rather see #2. Pumped for the younger guys to actually watch for a year and get thier size and strength before being relied on for meaningful snaps. I was glad to hear Herman say he didn't want to play Kerstetter last year. 

[bschoolprof 6340]

You have a great chance of seeing #2 with our oline in the fall. A lot of it.

[markstanco 12774]

To me it comes down to picking between Rodriguez and Shack to fill the last spot on the OL.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's like choosing from a bullet to the head or to the chest.

[Slacks 7035]

Anybody have the IT piece on Vahe?  I don't understand why everyone is so down on him. He's played on both the left and right, with about 5011 different C/T combos, and he's been one of our better OL this decade... which is a bit of a problem, i get it.  but after Ced Flowers, what other OG would be a must swap? Mason Walters?

I mean, hell, if I am going to complain about a position, it's not even going to be OG. 

We haven't had a Center since Chris Hall... Chris Hall is now the gold standard at C? Kick my nuts.

[Machinator 32102]

Ian Boyd: Patrick Vahe's 2017 season

Plenty of Texas fans have been pretty surprised by the fact that Patrick Vahe serving as the starting left guard is one of the few features of the 2018 OL that seems etched in stone. 

Calvin Anderson assuming the role of left tackle is all but assured, but that's not shocking for a player that was contested over by Texas, Oklahoma, and Michigan for his play at that position over the last few years at Rice. Oklahoma is losing Orlando "14 reps" Brown, who despite his appalling testing was a very effective 3-year starter for them at LT (unanimous All-American last year). The Sooners are loaded with young mammoths that project to tackle but they're all still growing out their tusks so it seems that in lieu of promoting one of them they are going to slide over the only 6-4 but highly athletic RT Bobby Evans and find a new RT.

Michigan has been hurting bad for tackles and last year had to play Mason Cole, who's a lock to be drafted but also a lock to play inside in the pros, as their man on the left side. Without Anderson in the mix they are likely choosing from 6-6 mauler but limited protector Juwan Bushel-Beatty, 6-3 ultra-athlete Jon Runyan, Jr, and a 6-5, converted DT and RS freshman named James Hudson.

All that to say, the state of things at LT for potential contenders Oklahoma and Michigan suggests that Calvin Anderson was viewed as a major and essential prize at the cornerstone position along the OL.

So why is Texas determined to pair him with Patrick Vahe on the left side? Wasn't Vahe a sore spot in the 2017 season? I reviewed his games against West Virginia (before he went out, to watch him work with Connor Williams), Oklahoma, and Missouri to get a better feel for what kind of 2017 season he had and why the staff has confidence in him.

Good on the move

Vahe was effective last season on zone plays where he could climb up to an LB, on outside zone plays reaching a DL, and on counter plays pulling around to kick out the edge defender. In fact, Texas often ran play-action off that counter action by pulling Vahe and asking him to secure the right edge in protection:

Pulling a guard is often a very effective way to work play-action for a lot of reasons, including what you see here in which the pulling action pulls the LBs one way while their coverage assignment (the RB) is leaking out to the other side. Counter wasn't Texas' run best play last season but it was one of the more solid options because Vahe was generally reliable at hitting the kickout:

On this example he gets a pretty good screening block on Obo Okoronkwo but the play is done in by Zach Shackleford's bizarre failure to execute a down block on Amani Bledsoe.

Vahe was okay on outside zone plays, which are normally the best friend of the scrappy OL who knows how to move his feet since the lateral stress of the play can allow the OL to eventually get leverage on the DL. Here's an example where he won a shoulder before eventually losing his guy in the push for the goal line

He'd probably be pretty good on this scheme with more reps since it hasn't been an extensive part of the offense in the last several years, this concept is one of a few areas where he's probably not already close to being maxed out in terms of what he'll be as a collegiate OL.

Good in tandem

Overall 2017 proved Vahe to be more of a thermometer than a thermostat for the OL. My review of film showed a lot fewer busts than his reputation had prepared me for but instead a lot of quality work where he was picking up blitzes and stunts but generally serving in more of a support role than a featured one, save for the counter run and accompanying play-action set.

When he has the angles to work on a double team he was pretty good at maintaining a block on a guy shoved into his lap...

...and better at picking off LBs if he could trade the DL to the center or tackle...

There was a similar story to be told from his work in pass protection. Here he is working with his old partner Connor Williams to effortlessly trade off a twist:

Vahe understands Texas' zone blocking schemes both in the run game and in protection and can generally be counted on to make a good effort at the right assignment. That's what you expect from a three-year starter but that's also reliably what you're getting. If you pair him with a good center and (more importantly) with a good tackle then he's going to thrive and you're not going to give up cheap, easy rushes where he's easily beat or makes an error.
 

Vulnerable in isolation

Texas really struggled to run the ball against Oklahoma (save for when Ehlinger was scrambling or stiff-arming LBs on the edge) because none of their interior OL could reliably hold up in isolation against a Sooner DL. Here's an example where Vahe lost control of Neville Gallimore against the Sooners:

You'd also like for Ehlinger to pull this ball but it's a pretty cloudy read on the unblocked DE. At any rate, the Texas OL is overpowered up front. He was generally better in this regard in pass protection:

 

But still vulnerable to getting shoved or beat when isolated against a good player on an opposing front.

It seems that what the staff sees in Vahe is a trusty veteran who can guarantee a certain level of competence in the base schemes and who hasn't had a great chance to shine in some of his strengths because the weekly gameplan often started from the fetal position because of all the unit's shortcomings.

If they can scheme up more ways to get him on the move as a puller and surround him with improved play to his left and right there's good reason to believe that Vahe will prove the trust placed in him to have been sensible.
 

[Slacks 7035]

Pretty much on par with what I thought I was seeing... so what is everyone bitching about?  The guy has been average or above through four OCs in 3 seasons and our 2nd best OL over that time. (at worst, i'd say tied for 2nd if you want to argue for Kent Perkins, which would be fair.)

[UT Lawnghorn 758]

Just now, Snacks said:

Pretty much on par with what I thought I was seeing... so what is everyone bitching about?  The guy has been average or above through four OCs in 3 seasons and our 2nd best OL over that time. (at worst, i'd say tied for 2nd if you want to argue for Kent Perkins, which would be fair.)

Vahe has never been above average. He blocks extremely well when he pulls, he's generally a pretty good run blocker, but he's horrible in pass pro.  He gets killed when asked to block a DL 1 on 1, and he also has never reliably picked up stunt blitzes. That clip that Ian showed on the stunt was a horribly executed attempt by WVU where Vahe didn't even have to move. 

It's nice that Vahe can do certain things in the run game very well, but his deficiencies in iso run blocking and pass blocking in general kill drives.  The good doesn't make up for the bad with him.  If he's your worst OL, then your OL's probably not terrible, but if he's an unquestioned starter and possibly your second best OL, then your OL probably sucks.

Also, you keep saying he's one of our best OL this decade, but I"m not sure you mean OL, as you've failed to mention Connor Williams once...

[Machinator 32102]

Can't read this because it's paywalled (and I refuse to pay for a 247 subscription), but Dan Neil seems to be bullish on the O-line, for what it's worth.

https://247sports.com/college/texas/Article/Dan-Neil-Impressions-of-O-line-under-Herb-Hand-in-spring-game-117597786

[Ricky Butler 2791]

1 minute ago, Machinator said:

Can't read this because it's paywalled (and I refuse to pay for a 247 subscription), but Dan Neil seems to be bullish on the O-line, for what it's worth.

https://247sports.com/college/texas/Article/Dan-Neil-Impressions-of-O-line-under-Herb-Hand-in-spring-game-117597786

I'm interested in his thoughts, but not going to give that site my monies. I find his insight pretty spot on. I remember his Connor Williams is a stud write up after the Notre Dame game (blowout loss). 

[Slacks 7035]

Vahe has never been above average. He blocks extremely well when he pulls, he's generally a pretty good run blocker, but he's horrible in pass pro.  He gets killed when asked to block a DL 1 on 1, and he also has never reliably picked up stunt blitzes. That clip that Ian showed on the stunt was a horribly executed attempt by WVU where Vahe didn't even have to move. 
It's nice that Vahe can do certain things in the run game very well, but his deficiencies in iso run blocking and pass blocking in general kill drives.  The good doesn't make up for the bad with him.  If he's your worst OL, then your OL's probably not terrible, but if he's an unquestioned starter and possibly your second best OL, then your OL probably sucks.
Also, you keep saying he's one of our best OL this decade, but I"m not sure you mean OL, as you've failed to mention Connor Williams once...

so... you think I think Vahe is on the level of CW55?

Pick the top 8 (arbitrary, pick a number) OL since 2010.