Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase 4: Tripping Balls (Spoilers)

[Stringer 1,438]

I finished the new MCU book the other day and enjoyed it.  It's not high art, but as some great stories and it's fun revisit the movies through those stories.  It's a fun read.  I especially enjoyed the creation of the company and the WILD deals they made before they knew what they had.

Also, Ike Perlmutter seems like a huge pain in the ass.

[The Dog 44,020]

(ETA - audience scores for Eternals and Quantumania were significantly higher than the critic but worse than critics for Secret Invasion.)

Edited November 8, 2023 by The Dog

[atomheartbevo 89,643]

They are finally taking the foot off the gas with the MCU movies - they apparently came out and said Deadpool 3 is the only Marvel movie out next year - Captain America and the other(s) slated for 2024 were pushed back to 2025.  Ostensibly it's about the writer's strike, but from what I've heard (friend that works at one of their VFX sub-contractors), they are backing off and taking a hard look at their production pipelines, overall story arc, etc.

They should have done this with the last Ant-Man movie though, but maybe they didn't consider it a wakeup call (and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3's box office helped soften the blow).

They screwed up in the aftermath of Endgame.  It was so epic, that it was hard to dial things back, and the multiverse stuff running concurrently with the quantum realm stuff with the Invasion/space stuff just....I really enjoyed the Loki shows (especially the second season) ....but I almost forgot that Guardians of the Galaxy 3 came out this summer, and I completely forgot Kraven.  Now that they've got Fantastic Four and X-Men, they need to take a breather.

Looking at the list below, the only things that really interest me are What If?, X-Men '97, Echo, Deadpool, Agatha (Kathryn Hahn reading the telephone book would do it for me), Spider-Man: Freshman Year, and Blade are the only ones that really grab me.  And Daredevil.  FF and the Thunderbolts could easily fall flat.

• What If...? Season 2 (Late December 2023)
• X-Men '97 (Early 2024)
• Echo (January 10, 2024)
• Deadpool 3 (July 26, 2024)
• Agatha: Darkhold Diaries (Fall 2024)
• Spider-Man: Freshman Year (2024)
• Captain America: Brave New World (February 14, 2025)
• Fantastic Four (May 2, 2025)
• Thunderbolts (July 25, 2025)
• Blade (November 7, 2025)
• Avengers: The Kang Dynasty (May 1, 2026)
• Avengers: Secret Wars (May 7, 2027)
• Live-Action Spider-Man Sequels (Dates TBD)
• Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings 2 (Date TBD)
• Armor Wars (Date TBD)
• Ironheart (Date TBD)
• Daredevil: Born Again (Date TBD)
• Wonder Man (Date TBD)
• Wakanda Series (Date TBD)
• Marvel Zombies (Date TBD)
• Vision Quest (Date TBD)

 

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2,652]

it’s sad, i watched them all till love and thunder 🤮

 

now i probably won’t watch another till deadpool 3 

[ajax 2,608]

Late to the game but I finally got around to watching Guardians 3 on D+. Damn that was so good.

I was kind of worried after the absolute train wreck that was Ant-Man Quantumania. Guardians 3 and No Way Home are by far the best post-Endgame movies.

[LCHorn 2,616]

4 hours ago, ajax said:

I was kind of worried after the absolute train wreck that was Ant-Man Quantumania. Guardians 3 and No Way Home are by far the best post-Endgame movies.

Marvel’s issue is needing Ant-Man to do better than $500m to make a profit.  I agree with @atomheartbevo, they’ve got to find a way to lower the stakes from Endgame and still have a compelling cross-film background narrative.  

[CooterBrown 18,005]

They should’ve had a fresh start after Endgame with another universe. Start from scratch and build up to the next big baddie just like they did with Thanos. Even if you reuse some of the same characters, recasting is easier knowing it’s a different universe. You could even play with time periods.

[mdmost 43,001]

I feel like we're going to get a massive pivot away from the multiverse. Fantastic Four is the perfect point to start that and bring in Doom. 

The next movies and shows leading up to that will all be grounded on Earth. The FF will be the first movie to move things back outside of Earth. Fiege needs to figure it out though because the interest is definitely waning. 

We saw the Marvels last night. We enjoyed it. It was fun but definitely forgettable which feels like most of the post-Endgame movies. It's going to do really poorly though based both on reviews and early previews. I don't feel I'm spoiling anything by saying it doesn't touch the multiverse in the main story at all. 

 

except in the mid-credit which could be a nice pivot point as well to introduce a new franchise

Edited November 11, 2023 by mdmost

[Buzzrock 14,913]

I still maintain they should go animated. The spider verse movies were excellent. Hell the recent TMNT movie was better than most of what Disney has put out recently.

[mdmost 43,001]

40 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

I still maintain they should go animated. The spider verse movies were excellent. Hell the recent TMNT movie was better than most of what Disney has put out recently.

They're doing that with some of the Disney+ content. X-Men 97 and Spiderman: The Freshman Years are both animated, in addition to another season of What If

[freyguy 4,266]

I'll admit, after a few years post-Endgame, my life has been too busy to get amped up for each new installment.  and dude, I looove Marvel.  

To me, they're taking everything too slowly, and they don't stay focused enough to develop much.  It's like they're giving alot of the old timers extended swan songs.  Which is wasteful.

I still feel if they went the cosmic route and pushed the Annihilation arc, opened up the negative zone to introduce the fantastic 4, surprise with Ultron, resurrect Thanos, oh man...  Or take post Spiderverse intro to bring in mutants, that would have worked too.  

But unfortunately, it's been a disorganized mess since Endgame.

[Doc Sam Beckett 5,792]

On 11/10/2023 at 3:27 PM, atomheartbevo said:

Looking at the list below, the only things that really interest me are What If?, X-Men '97, Echo, Deadpool, Agatha (Kathryn Hahn reading the telephone book would do it for me), Spider-Man: Freshman Year, and Blade are the only ones that really grab me.  And Daredevil.  FF and the Thunderbolts could easily fall flat.

• What If...? Season 2 (Late December 2023)
• X-Men '97 (Early 2024)
• Echo (January 10, 2024)
• Deadpool 3 (July 26, 2024)
• Agatha: Darkhold Diaries (Fall 2024)
• Spider-Man: Freshman Year (2024)
• Captain America: Brave New World (February 14, 2025)
• Fantastic Four (May 2, 2025)
• Thunderbolts (July 25, 2025)
• Blade (November 7, 2025)
• Avengers: The Kang Dynasty (May 1, 2026)
• Avengers: Secret Wars (May 7, 2027)
• Live-Action Spider-Man Sequels (Dates TBD)
• Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings 2 (Date TBD)
• Armor Wars (Date TBD)
• Ironheart (Date TBD)
• Daredevil: Born Again (Date TBD)
• Wonder Man (Date TBD)
• Wakanda Series (Date TBD)
• Marvel Zombies (Date TBD)
• Vision Quest (Date TBD)

 

 

Yeah, average at best. Fuck your animated xmen, and most of that list. Blade, if done right, could be decent. As a half nerd, Avengers shit could be cool as long Superman Captain Marvel isn't part of it. Zero interest in most of the rest of it. Wonder Man, Marvel Zombies, xmen 97, etc etc can get bent

* and I'm a massive xmen fan. I actually loved First Class and Days of Future Past

 

 

21 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

They should have wrapped it up after Endgame (and Guardians of the Galaxy 3) and then transitioned full on into Spider-Man and X-Men as the new tent poles.  Those are still the more valuable franchises.  It’s just that Sony made meh to shitty movies with them, and Marvel/Disney made much better movies with the lesser celebrated characters, so those movies took off.  Instead of going deeper into comic book nerd land and multiverses for new characters and stories, they could have just redone all the stuff Sony screwed up with the major brands (like they are already doing with Spider-Man).  

Yep, hit Xmen hard 

 

5 hours ago, Buzzrock said:

I still maintain they should go animated. The spider verse movies were excellent. Hell the recent TMNT movie was better than most of what Disney has put out recently.

Fuck you dude. I'm a casual fan and I'll watch any Spiderverse movie, so you're right there, but fuck xmen 97. Let's not do this 

[Buzzrock 14,913]

Strong response for a casual fan. I guess X-men 97 is going to be animated? I don’t know anything about it. 

Go watch Blue Eye Samurai and tell me all Disney content wouldn’t be better presented that way. 

[mdmost 43,001]

X-Men 97 is a revival of the 90s X-Men cartoon that was great. It will be fun. The MCU version is 4-5 years away. Honestly, they might pivot from Avengers Kang shit to X-Men Kang shit. 

[Js1 85,301]

On 11/11/2023 at 10:10 AM, mdmost said:

We enjoyed it. It was fun but definitely forgettable which feels like most of the post-Endgame movies.

It was short and fun. I enjoyed it 

[LCHorn 2,616]

I think it’s telling that from all appearances, they made a decent movie.  They just can’t sell tickets for it.  

[atomheartbevo 89,643]

17 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

I think it’s telling that from all appearances, they made a decent movie.  They just can’t sell tickets for it.  

They have a machine that churns out competently-made movies, so it's not surprising.

My problem is that a lot of friends are burned out on Marvel, so if I'm going to the theater, I'm by myself (my son isn't caught up on the MCU and/or old enough for some stuff just yet, but another year and it'll be fine), and I really have no desire to do so, especially when I know they'll be on Disney+ within a year (I have a backlog of movies/shows as it is).

Speaking of backlogs, given that the Marvel shows are just sitting there on Disney+, I'm not in a rush to watch them.  Nothing in the MCU currently has the stakes or cultural cachet that Infinity War/Endgame had, where all my friends are going to be talking about it, and if I don't see it right away, then I'll get spoilers and be pissed.  She-Hulk took me a while to get through, same with Secret Invasion.  Ms, Marvel, Loki, Wandavision, those were shows that were quick watches and/or left me actually curious (well Wandavision, I got a thing for Olsen and Hahn so it could be the two of them reading the phone book and I'm in).  But even if I had been spoilered for those shows, it woudln't have bothered me versus say being spoiled for IW/Endgame.  Having some knowledge of the comics, there was not much that surprised me with the TV shows.

Same with Ant-Man and Guardians 3.  I knew they'd show up on Disney+, and while they had big events, they weren't like IW/EG.

[ajax 2,608]

Marvel should really start making their movies more distinct. One of the reasons why Wandavision started out so popular was because of how different it was. Can you imagine if the Black Widow movie were an actual spy thriller?

I heard Nia Dacosta didn't really have control of the Marvels. Why even hire someone with such a unique vision if you're not going to let her make her movie?

I bet the reason Guardians 3 was so good is because Gunn has so much cache that he got to actually make his own movie.

[UT_OB1 2,218]

4 hours ago, Js1 said:

It was short and fun. I enjoyed it 

I agree. Kids and I just got back from watching it. Like the kid that plays Ms Marvel. Also had a different feel to it that I enjoyed. 

[Js1 85,301]

35 minutes ago, UT_OB1 said:

I agree. Kids and I just got back from watching it. Like the kid that plays Ms Marvel. Also had a different feel to it that I enjoyed. 

She’s fantastic. The Captain Marvel movies def give SLJ more room to be funny and he nails it 

[chainsaw 9,862]

34 minutes ago, Js1 said:

She’s fantastic. The Captain Marvel movies def give SLJ more room to be funny and he nails it 

Was surprised to see

Spoiler

Kelsey Grammer back considering how batshit conservative he is. Guess that Disney money is just too good to say no to.

 

[Murfdogg21 4,412]

^Yeah.  Phase I-III was a hell of a build up with great actors and big name character. There could have been audience fatigue, but abruptly going to the B-team of characters was going to hurt regardless. Right or wrong, a lot of people won’t give a shit about the girl power movies or shows with primarily female casts. Black Panther was doomed when the lead actor died. They need to run with Spiderman, do an awesome new version of X-men, and recast the main Avengers characters.

[mdmost 43,001]

I think The Marvels performance is going to raise a lot of questions about how the MCU needs to proceed going forward. I just don't see any of the current franchises making people want to come out in droves outside of Spiderman. I enjoyed the Marvels but it felt a bit like something that probably should've just made its debut on Disney+. But for the type of money they're spending to get it made, that's not possible and those budgets are no longer sustainable. Blade is only get 100 million for its budget and that's more in line with what they need to do. But is Sam's Captain America movie going to draw out people to the theater? I doubt it. It would be in line with the Marvels where you would've had to watch the Bucky and Falcon show to know why he's Cap now. I think we're about to see a huge pause in all the movies and TV shows. Disney can't keep taking huge losses. I'm not sure what Disney is going to do if Wish isn't a success at the end of this month. Nothing is working for them. Maybe Inside Out 2 but I think Disney+ has destroyed the movie watching experience for Disney movies. 

[Dutch 4,465]

3 hours ago, BeardIP said:

I have read some of you guys who went and said it was a whimsical, fast movie that was not great or groundbreaking or cultural relevant, but just fun. The description of a movie like that can't have the expectations of making $250mm to be a success. That's a low budget movie description. That and having it be a female-centric superhero movie means a lot of young boys don't care, so not sure who the real audience for this was supposed to be. I guess it goes back to the criticisms longhormatt was saying; this movie was for deeper comic book fans and those who are really invested in the MCU versus more casual fans.

Which is exactly the sort of film I'm looking to watch on Disney+ on a Friday night with my kid.

19 minutes ago, mdmost said:

I think The Marvels performance is going to raise a lot of questions about how the MCU needs to proceed going forward. I just don't see any of the current franchises making people want to come out in droves outside of Spiderman. I enjoyed the Marvels but it felt a bit like something that probably should've just made its debut on Disney+. But for the type of money they're spending to get it made, that's not possible and those budgets are no longer sustainable. Blade is only get 100 million for its budget and that's more in line with what they need to do. But is Sam's Captain America movie going to draw out people to the theater? I doubt it. It would be in line with the Marvels where you would've had to watch the Bucky and Falcon show to know why he's Cap now. I think we're about to see a huge pause in all the movies and TV shows. Disney can't keep taking huge losses. I'm not sure what Disney is going to do if Wish isn't a success at the end of this month. Nothing is working for them. Maybe Inside Out 2 but I think Disney+ has destroyed the movie watching experience for Disney movies. 

It really has.  Why spend cash to take your kids to the theatre when the film will drop on Disney+ in a few months?

The other issue they're likely to run into is a raft of cancellations when the no-ad price of Disney+ nearly doubles to $14/mo or $140/yr. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Dutch

[atomheartbevo 89,643]

2 hours ago, Murfdogg21 said:

They need to run with Spiderman, do an awesome new version of X-men, and recast the main Avengers characters.

They don't need to recast the main Avengers, they need to nail the casting on Fantastic Four and run with it, X-Men, and Spidey.  And DeadPool.

[mdmost 43,001]

I just don't think Fantastic Four is going to be something people are going to turn out in droves for like Spiderman or Deadpool. Too much CGI and the story has been done to death now. Yes, those versions sucked but the casting would just have to floor everyone and they already wasted one bullet with putting Reed Richards in a throwaway role in the DS2 movie. 

[Js1 85,301]

I agree with this 

[Buzzrock 14,913]

They can roll out unknown characters and lesser known actors if they write good stories. Outside of comic nerds one knew who GotG or Deadpool were, and they weren’t jammed with a-list talent (Deadpool arguably propelled RR to a-list). Those movies were great.

There are decades and decades of comics out there, there must be some more good stories in them.

[atomheartbevo 89,643]

5 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

(Deadpool arguably propelled RR to a-list)

Same with Guardians and the pudgy guy from Parks and Rec,

[Bateshorn 9,927]

20 hours ago, mdmost said:

I just don't think Fantastic Four is going to be something people are going to turn out in droves for like Spiderman or Deadpool. Too much CGI and the story has been done to death now. Yes, those versions sucked but the casting would just have to floor everyone and they already wasted one bullet with putting Reed Richards in a throwaway role in the DS2 movie. 

There is an obvious sex joke around Mr. Fantastic simply can't be waived away.  It just sits there and potentially turns every scene into a "That's what she said" farce. Plus the Thing looks stupid in Real life.  They are just a comic that's time has passed.  Kind of like how Strangers in a Strange Land was edgy and important in the early 60s, but reads very silly now (Groking). 

It's why the Incredibles is the definitive Fantastic Four. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Bateshorn

[BERT 4,358]

On 11/11/2023 at 9:15 PM, Doc Sam Beckett said:

 

Yeah, average at best. Fuck your animated xmen, and most of that list. Blade, if done right, could be decent. As a half nerd, Avengers shit could be cool as long Superman Captain Marvel isn't part of it. Zero interest in most of the rest of it. Wonder Man, Marvel Zombies, xmen 97, etc etc can get bent

* and I'm a massive xmen fan. I actually loved First Class and Days of Future Past

 

 

Yep, hit Xmen hard 

 

Fuck you dude. I'm a casual fan and I'll watch any Spiderverse movie, so you're right there, but fuck xmen 97. Let's not do this 

Obviously you didn't watch the X-Men series in the 90's. Shame on you, sir

[Doc Sam Beckett 5,792]

2 minutes ago, BERT said:

Obviously you didn't watch the X-Men series in the 90's. Shame on you, sir

It was over the top, but I just really liked what they did with Days of Future Past and First Class. 

[BERT 4,358]

4 hours ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

It was over the top, but I just really liked what they did with Days of Future Past and First Class. 

I've enjoyed them all, even the ones that "sucked". Why? Cause it's freaking X-Men

[mdmost 43,001]

MCU...

 

https://deadline.com/2023/11/pedro-pascal-reed-richards-marvel-studios-fantastic-four-1235599560/

[Js1 85,301]

I believe that’s called doing a Zoe Saldana - get cast in 3 huge franchises and make bank

Zoe: Star Trek, Avatar, MCU

Pedro: GOT, Star Wars, MCU

[UpperWestside 6,162]

I can see how teens might enjoy this movie because of one of the main characters. I am watching it right now. I am not connecting with this movie, but for the folks that are I think that’s cool.

[mdmost 43,001]

11 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I can see how teens might enjoy this movie because of one of the main characters. I am watching it right now. I am not connecting with this movie, but for the folks that are I think that’s cool.

Maybe if you got off your phone during a movie you might connect with it better

[UpperWestside 6,162]

5 minutes ago, mdmost said:

Maybe if you got off your phone during a movie you might connect with it better

Knew it wouldn’t take long for that snark to appear. If I feel the need to look at my phone during a movie I know it is time to leave. Nothing drew me into the movie, but it does not mean others are not enjoying it.

[mdmost 43,001]

18 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

Knew it wouldn’t take long for that snark to appear. If I feel the need to look at my phone during a movie I know it is time to leave. Nothing drew me into the movie, but it does not mean others are not enjoying it.

You're on your phone...at a movie theater. What kind of animal are you? Or you left the movie in the middle?

Edited November 15, 2023 by mdmost

[UpperWestside 6,162]

I left with around 30 minutes or so left. There was two other people in the entire thing about 8 rows below me. When I go I always turn off the phone and focus on what I am watching. If I find myself not enjoying it I leave. Not the first nor the last time it’ll happen. Not every movie connects with every audience member, but again it does not mean this is not a nice movie.

I only pay 24 a month for that AMC pass so leaving for me (And I am sure others that have the pass) isn’t too big a deal. It doesn’t happen often. The last time was that Charlie Day movie where he can’t speak. There is no way anyone liked that movie.

[Guadaloopy 10,960]

4 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

I left with around 30 minutes or so left. 

You missed the best part with the Flerken.

[atomheartbevo 89,643]

4 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

You missed the best part with the Flerken.

Somebody had a pubic hair wig?

Edit: wrong term.

Edited November 16, 2023 by atomheartbevo

[Guadaloopy 10,960]

1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

Somebody had a pubic hair wig?

 

Yes.  These superhero costumes are out of control.  

[atomheartbevo 89,643]

2 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

Yes.  These superhero costumes are out of control.  

I hope this is true of the Agatha Harkness series.

I want Katherine Hahn in something like this

Of course, if she spent a few episodes running around dressed like this I'd be happy

 

[Michael Knight 12,977]

Disney just needs to slow the content spigot, focus on quality not quantity like they have done Endgame. People forget and think the previous phases were all great but there were several stinkers in there with Ironman 2 +3 Thor 1 and 2 and Antman 1. Hell even Captain America 1 and Avengers 2 were average 

[Rockethorn1978 6,077]

[Murfdogg21 4,412]

13 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

I hope this is true of the Agatha Harkness series.

I want Katherine Hahn in something like this

Of course, if she spent a few episodes running around dressed like this I'd be happy

 

How many JC Penney catalogs did you get crusty in the early 80s?

[rage-a-holic 4,382]

14 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

I hope this is true of the Agatha Harkness series.

I want Katherine Hahn in something like this

Of course, if she spent a few episodes running around dressed like this I'd be happy

 

[atomheartbevo 89,643]

2 hours ago, Murfdogg21 said:

How many JC Penney catalogs did you get crusty in the early 80s?

Early 80s?  0.

Late 80s? A few.

1980s Sears catalogs with Cheryl Tiegs?

[utee94 15,811]

Saw Marvels last night.  It was entertaining.  Definitely not a $350M revenue machine though.

I agree with the poster above who said this is going to make Disney decide on a direction for the new movies, and I think that's okay.