Ronald Reagan... My God

[American Swindle 102]

33 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

A Proclamation.

Whereas, on the twenty-second day of September, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-two, a proclamation was issued by the President of the United States, containing, among other things, the following, to wit:

 

"That on the first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the Executive Government of the United States, including the military and naval authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such persons, and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom.

"That the Executive will, on the first day of January aforesaid, by proclamation, designate the States and parts of States, if any, in which the people thereof, respectively, shall then be in rebellion against the United States; and the fact that any State, or the people thereof, shall on that day be, in good faith, represented in the Congress of the United States by members chosen thereto at elections wherein a majority of the qualified voters of such State shall have participated, shall, in the absence of strong countervailing testimony, be deemed conclusive evidence that such State, and the people thereof, are not then in rebellion against the United States."

Now, therefore I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, by virtue of the power in me vested as Commander-in-Chief, of the Army and Navy of the United States in time of actual armed rebellion against the authority and government of the United States, and as a fit and necessary war measure for suppressing said rebellion, do, on this first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and in accordance with my purpose so to do publicly proclaimed for the full period of one hundred days, from the day first above mentioned, order and designate as the States and parts of States wherein the people thereof respectively, are this day in rebellion against the United States, the following, to wit:

 

Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, (except the Parishes of St. Bernard, Plaquemines, Jefferson, St. John, St. Charles, St. James Ascension, Assumption, Terrebonne, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans, including the City of New Orleans) Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia, (except the forty-eight counties designated as West Virginia, and also the counties of Berkley, Accomac, Northampton, Elizabeth City, York, Princess Ann, and Norfolk, including the cities of Norfolk and Portsmouth), and which excepted parts, are for the present, left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued.

And by virtue of the power, and for the purpose aforesaid, I do order and declare that all persons held as slaves within said designated States, and parts of States, are, and henceforward shall be free; and that the Executive government of the United States, including the military and naval authorities thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of said persons.

And I hereby enjoin upon the people so declared to be free to abstain from all violence, unless in necessary self-defence; and I recommend to them that, in all cases when allowed, they labor faithfully for reasonable wages.

And I further declare and make known, that such persons of suitable condition, will be received into the armed service of the United States to garrison forts, positions, stations, and other places, and to man vessels of all sorts in said service.

And upon this act, sincerely believed to be an act of justice, warranted by the Constitution, upon military necessity, I invoke the considerate judgment of mankind, and the gracious favor of Almighty God.

In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the City of Washington, this first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty three, and of the Independence of the United States of America the eighty-seventh.

By the President: ABRAHAM LINCOLN
WILLIAM H. SEWARD, Secretary of State.

Lincoln's letter to Horace Greeley:

 

 

Quote

 

The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free. Yours, A. Lincoln.

 

[hpslugga 4044]

23 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

So a thread in 2019 about what Ronald Reagan said to Richard Nixon 50 years ago has devolved into sniping about the existence of God, debating the legacy of Washington/Lincoln, and positing an alternative timeline where Jimmy Carter runs a peanut plantation via slave labor.

Sounds about right.

Don't forget what precipitated the god stuff: the idea that "making Iran great again" means returning it to the time of 2,500 years ago.

Edited August 1, 2019 by hpslugga

[Judge Roybeanbag 11810]

8 minutes ago, American Swindle said:

Lincoln's letter to Horace Greeley:

 

 

You might have also highlighted another important part.

Quote

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free. Yours, A. Lincoln.

 

[American Swindle 102]

9 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Typical gotcha stuff. I recently completed A Team of Rivals. Fabulous book about Lincoln and the men of his cabinet.

Lincoln indeed shared the broad view that blacks were inferior. That had largely been ingrained across the whole country and even abolitionists included members who believed it to be true. The issue was should they be citizens. Lincoln believed yes.

As president, Lincoln's opinion of blacks changed partially because he befriended Frederick Douglas who wrote about Lincoln being a rare white man to deal with him as an equal. Lincoln often consulted Douglas and thought of him as a good friend.

This simple explanation, I expect, probably emerged from a graduate paper. It's hopelessly shallow.

Lincoln's emancipation proclamation was part of the war effort to undermine the manpower advantage that slave labor gave the rebel army. I don't think you have a firm grasp of altruism. The move was wise and daring and well-timed. The Union needed the border states to remain in the Union. Slaves in those states were not aiding the rebel war effort. Expediency and the priority of preserving the Union dictated Lincoln's decision about the northern slave states.

Your notion of it being some sort of Power grab is abstract and unsubstantiated. If anything, Lincoln risks losing support because the North was still reluctant to say the war was about freeing the slaves. Many believed that the Union should reimburse Southerners who had to give up their slaves because they were property.

The pleasure of reading the book was getting a clearer vision of what America was like, what Americans thought, and how difficult it was to navigate the stormy waters which Lincoln did brilliantly.

Edit: Next, I will bloviate about why we should all like and admire Ben Franklin. Stay tuned to this channel!

No not really gotcha.  Just the history that is suppressed because it goes against the narrative that is convenient for the Federal  apparatus we see today.  

What type of mental gymnastics do those on the left have to go through to get around the blatant fact he was racist by the standards that are used today?  Lincoln was about Federal Power, and as the letter to Greeley highlights, he would've done anything to preserve it.  

Are you denying Lincoln didn't say those words in his debate with Stephen Douglas?  Are you denying that he didn't write the words to Greeley?  Are you denying he suspended Habeus Corpus?  

The case can be made that these precedents during Lincoln's tenure paved the way for future presidents to abuse executive power not granted to them by the Constitution. 

[Asithappens 974]

37 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Back to the issue at hand: Ronald Reagan was a racist and a shitty president. 

Really?

I know this is CR and all, but really?

[American Swindle 102]

5 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

You might have also highlighted another important part.

 

The question is whether or not he made the Proclamation to preserve the Union or to Free the slaves?  By his rhetoric, it's well argued imo that he was more about Federal Power as the letter highlights.  

 

 

[David Dennison 18655]

1 minute ago, Asithappens said:

Really?

I know this is CR and all, but really?

100%

[hpslugga 4044]

13 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Really?

I know this is CR and all, but really?

Yes

[NowThis 931]

not that i support RR, hated him while I was in HS... but the 49-1 political devastation of 1984 will never be equaled for centuries.  Serioulsy, the liberal bastions of Hawaii, NY, NJ, CT and others went for Reagan over the Mondale - Carter debacle. Only MN went Mondale, the home state.  This means, the Reagan Revolution was legit, aside from the 82 recession - America was on the upswing from the 80s.

[lemonlime 5503]

17 minutes ago, NowThis said:

not that i support RR, hated him while I was in HS... but the 49-1 political devastation of 1984 will never be equaled for centuries.  Serioulsy, the liberal bastions of Hawaii, NY, NJ, CT and others went for Reagan over the Mondale - Carter debacle. Only MN went Mondale, the home state.  This means, the Reagan Revolution was legit, aside from the 82 recession - America was on the upswing from the 80s.

You're citing to elections before the GOP became the party of white southerners (arguably led there by the white supremacy of its leaders).  Back in 1984, or really any time before 1990, many of the bluest states voted for the Republican for president.  Hell, NJ voted for Nixon twice, Reagan twice, and Bush 41.  And the red states were more Dem.  

[NowThis 931]

1 minute ago, lemonlime said:

You're citing to elections before the GOP became the party of white southerners (arguably led there by the white supremacy of its leaders).  Back in 1984, or really any time before 1990, many of the bluest states voted for the Republican for president.  Hell, NJ voted for Nixon twice, Reagan twice, and Bush 41.  And the red states were more Dem.  

1988 went back more towards to normal though 

 

 

[David Dennison 18655]

8 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

You're citing to elections before the GOP became the party of white southerners (arguably led there by the white supremacy of its leaders).  Back in 1984, or really any time before 1990, many of the bluest states voted for the Republican for president.  Hell, NJ voted for Nixon twice, Reagan twice, and Bush 41.  And the red states were more Dem.  

That's because up until the Civil Rights era, the Democratic party was the white people party. It took a while for older white southerners to migrate to the Republican Party. Some, like my native Texan grandparents, never did. 

[hpslugga 4044]

21 minutes ago, NowThis said:

1988 went back more towards to normal though 

 

 

That’s because the country had just begun to open its eyes to what a repulsive nightmare the Reagan years really were. 

Why else do you think 1992 swung far more dramatically than 1988 other than the fact that HW was basically running as a 4th term of Ronald Reagan? 

When Reagan’s critics speak, they speak of the actual guy and the actual president.

When his supporters speak of him, they’re remembering the mythology. They remember the brave cowboy who talked about “Morning in America,” the guy who championed the absolutely abhorrent economic policy known as Trickle Down, the guy who said that the Contras in Nicaragua were following in the footsteps of America’s founding fathers, or as you parroted not too long ago, the so-called “liberator of Grenada.”

That shit was man-made mythology and there wasn’t a word of truth to it. When you cite the 1984 election, the evidence you’re submitting is known as sanity-by-consensus.

[RomaVicta 29783]

36 minutes ago, NowThis said:

1988 went back more towards to normal though 

 

 

Alabama must be a great university because they won the National Football Championship!

[tantric superman 4667]

1 hour ago, American Swindle said:

The case can be made that these precedents during Lincoln's tenure paved the way for future presidents to abuse executive power not granted to them by the Constitution. 

The better case is that you are an abject, and sad, fool --  stupidly confusing the ideas of abuse of executive power, the status of the citizenship of slaves, and obviously racial jokes. 

[American Swindle 102]

1 minute ago, tantric superman said:

The better case is that you are an abject, and sad, fool --  stupidly confusing the ideas of abuse of executive power, the status of the citizenship of slaves, and obviously racial jokes. 

Not really an argument, but whatevs.  

What was the racial joke you are referring to?

[WhatTheBuck 28710]

4 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Washington was great man and one of the most admired men in the world. He loved farming and trying innovations. He famously bred jackasses. He was a gentleman farmer who got his hands dirty.

Well, there's one thing he has in common with Donald Trump.