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2019 Heisman Trophy Race

satyanash

By satyanash
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TXSooner518

TXSooner518 2455

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, Liquor and Poker said:

Just imagine him without #2 and tell me he deserves the award.

I'm not saying he deserves the award. I think the trip to NYC is deserved.

16 minutes ago, texifornia said:

I get that, and I generally prefer stats-based analyses, but man he did not pass the eye test like Mayfield and Murray did. He seemed buoyed by the offensive system and skill position talent, while the other two seemed to take the offense to a new level.

I'm hardly upset, his numbers are great, but I'd have preferred one of the awesome RBs this year (Hubbard, Taylor, Dobbins) in his place.

Fair. Would have also liked to seen Hubbard get an invite. 

5 minutes ago, sidis said:

the thing about hurts is that his pass efficiency is hugely aided by guys like ceedee breaking about a hundred tackles per catch and running for an additional 30 yards and shit.  that can be incredibly helpful to efficiency, as does throwing screen passes to rbs that run forever with them.

that said, you don't want want him dropping back and throwing the ball with the game on the line.  that's why they never do that in a must-convert situation.  lincoln always runs him in that situation (and most of the time, remarkably it works).

that said, he definitely deserves the toughest player in the country award.  the fucker has SEVENTY-FOUR (74) more rushing attempts than their starting running back for god's sake.  he rushed the ball 219 (ricky williams had 279 attempts in 97) times and he has taken hits on a huge percentage of them.  in both baylor games, he took some absolute shots from their defenders to the point that i didn't think he would get back up and nope, there is popping up like nothing even happened every single time.  dude is strong and tough as shit and is going to not be able to feed himself after the age of 40.

Fair points for sure. I will say he made multiple great plays throwing the ball in the B12 title game, including one where CD just couldn't quiiiiiiiite get his hands under it after Jalen kept the play alive and made a great situational throw, which allows OU to likely win in regulation if he catches it. He also threw the ball a ton, and very well, in the rally in Waco to save the season.

And yeah, his toughness and leadership (being voted captain as a senior transfer says a lot, as does the sheer number of Bama fans who are rooting for him) to me do help elevate him as a player and make him deserving of the invit.e

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sidis

sidis 10020

Posted
Posted (edited)

burrow didn't lose to kansas state.

and he didn't lose at home to iowa state either which hurts should have if big 12 referees called pass interference properly on 2 point conversion.  that last isu score was enabled by a critical hurts interception just like the one that let baylor back into the big 12 champ game.

but it is a fair point.  lsu wrs have been making spectacular plays for joe all year.

Edited by sidis
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Saint Tacky

Saint Tacky 1655

Posted
Posted

The Heisman Trophy has become an award for quarterbacks, as evidenced by the inclusion of Hurts, and to a lesser extent Fields.  Fields isn't even Ohio State's best player on offense.  That would be J.K Dobbins.   Dobbins' numbers versus top 15 rush defenses faced by OSU this season: Michigan State - 172 yards, one touchdown;  Penn State - 157 yards, two touchdowns; Michigan - 211 yards, four touchdowns; and, Wisconsin - 163 yards, two touchdowns and 171 yards, one touchdown in the title game.

Not saying he should win it over Burrow, but Dobbins' season stats are better than both Heisman Trophy winners Mark Ingram (2009) and Reggie Bush* (2005).  He is the Buckeye's MVP and most recent glaring example of how the Heisman Trophy has just become a more hyped version of the Davey O'Brien Award.

*cheater

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Jkwellborn

Jkwellborn 7102

Posted
Posted
burrow didn't lose to kansas state.
and he didn't lose at home to iowa state either which hurts should have if big 12 referees called pass interference properly on 2 point conversion.  that last isu score was enabled by a critical hurts interception just like the one that let baylor back into the big 12 champ game.
but it is a fair point.  lsu wrs have been making spectacular plays for joe all year.

I agree. It’s not technically* the qb on the best team and I’m not even trying to make a case for Hurts, but you can’t act like Burrow hasn’t had guys running free all season. Dobbins is the reason Fields is there because you have to account for that.
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sidis

sidis 10020

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Saint Tacky said:

The Heisman Trophy has become an award for quarterbacks, as evidenced by the inclusion of Hurts, and to a lesser extent Fields.  Fields isn't even Ohio State's best player on offense.  That would be J.K Dobbins.   Dobbins' numbers versus top 15 rush defenses faced by OSU this season: Michigan State - 172 yards, one touchdown;  Penn State - 157 yards, two touchdowns; Michigan - 211 yards, four touchdowns; and, Wisconsin - 163 yards, two touchdowns and 171 yards, one touchdown in the title game.

Not saying he should win it over Burrow, but Dobbins' season stats are better than both Heisman Trophy winners Mark Ingram (2009) and Reggie Bush* (2005).  He is the Buckeye's MVP and most recent glaring example of how the Heisman Trophy has just become a more hyped version of the Davey O'Brien Award.

*cheater

underscoring your point,  it is had for an rb to get consideration anymore in the modern offense unless there is just no one else and they run for 2K.  last four rb winners...henry, dayne, and ricky all went over 2K and ingram was awarded the trophy illegitimately over colt.

dobbins didn't quite get there but certainly has a claim that he belongs.  fields had some weird turnover games like hurts did but he was spectacular when they needed him.

fucking la grange, texas.  that fucking 2017 recruiting season still haunts me.  dobbins, odukah, browning...all texans and all up there kicking ass for the wrong team.  throw in wilson's emergence by year end this year and it is depressing.

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Kyrie Eleison

Kyrie Eleison 9312

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On 10/14/2019 at 10:06 PM, Spider2YBanana said:

Burrow or Fields would be my pick. Burrow for the competition (even in name only, shitty defenses aside), and Fields for putting up video game numbers. Tua will probably get it just because it's a popularity contest, sadly. If Fields can beat Wisconsin (assuming twice), it would be criminal not to give it to him (assuming no slip ups along the way). 

source.gif

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Liquor and Poker

Liquor and Poker 3659

Posted
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2 hours ago, sidis said:

the thing about hurts is that his pass efficiency is hugely aided by guys like ceedee breaking about a hundred tackles per catch and running for an additional 30 yards and shit. 

This is the idea I'm trying to convey.

2 hours ago, sidis said:

that said, he definitely deserves the toughest player in the country award.  the fucker has SEVENTY-FOUR (74) more rushing attempts than their starting running back for god's sake.  he rushed the ball 219 (ricky williams had 279 attempts in 97) times and he has taken hits on a huge percentage of them.  in both baylor games, he took some absolute shots from their defenders to the point that i didn't think he would get back up and nope, there is popping up like nothing even happened every single time.  dude is strong and tough as shit and is going to not be able to feed himself after the age of 40.

I agree with this as well. 

 

I also believe that as a QB, once you're in the Heisman hype in September, you really have to drop off to lose it.  RB seems to be a tougher road - Taylor really only had one bad game (OSU) and he "avenged" it in the rematch.  

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satyanash

satyanash 15785

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Posted
2 hours ago, Saint Tacky said:

Not saying he should win it over Burrow, but Dobbins' season stats are better than both Heisman Trophy winners Mark Ingram (2009) and Reggie Bush* (2005).  He is the Buckeye's MVP and most recent glaring example of how the Heisman Trophy has just become a more hyped version of the Davey O'Brien Award.

*cheater

Dobbins' stats are better than Ingram's. Not a huge accomplishment, since Ingram's stats were pedestrian by Heisman standards and he shouldn't have won (ESPN openly campaigning in his favour is what got him the award).

that being said, Bush's 2005 season blows both of theirs out of the water. 1,740 rushing yards at an 8.7 ypc clip, with an extra 500 receiving yards, is flat-out absurd even by today's standards.

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66BUFF

66BUFF 2615

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, PittsburghTiger said:

For me, primarily a Pitt fan, I've been pissed since Hugh Green did not win the Heisman, rather George Rogers won. Green had 460 tackles, 53 sacks, 24 forced fumbles and 22 passes defended in his four years at Pitt. In 1980 Green had 123 tackles, 77 were solo, 17 sacks, 7 forced fumbles/4 recovered, six passes broken up and 17 QB hurries in 12 games.

Chase Young, who has been fantastic at times, has 44 tackles, 31 are solo, 16.5 sacks, 6 forced fumbles & 3 passes broken up in 10 games.

Throw in Larry Fitzgerald not winning, Crappy Jason White won, and the award, to me, is crap.

Green was a beast.  He was the best player in college that year.

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66BUFF

66BUFF 2615

Posted
Posted
50 minutes ago, satyanash said:

Dobbins' stats are better than Ingram's. Not a huge accomplishment, since Ingram's stats were pedestrian by Heisman standards and he shouldn't have won (ESPN openly campaigning in his favour is what got him the award).

that being said, Bush's 2005 season blows both of theirs out of the water. 1,740 rushing yards at an 8.7 ypc clip, with an extra 500 receiving yards, is flat-out absurd even by today's standards.

and Barry Sanders blows Bush out of the water

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0xdeadbeef

0xdeadbeef 1717

Posted
Posted (edited)

I have no idea how you compare a Defensive player to a Offensive player, beyond an 'eyeball test".   That is an apples to oranges comparison if there ever was one. 

That said, even mixing in Hurt's impressive rushing stats, I think Burrow wins it.

  PASSING RUSHING
  CMP ATT YDS CMP% TD INT LNG SACK RTG QBR ATT YDS AVG TD LNG
Burrow 342 439 4,715 77.9 48 6 78 28 201.5 93.7 96 289 3 3 22
Hurts 222 309 3,634 71.8 32 7 74 21 200.3 90.6 219 1,255 5.7 18 52
Fields 208 308 2,953 67.5 40 1 60 27 190.3 92.4 123 471 3.8 10 51
Edited by 0xdeadbeef
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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8397

Posted
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5 hours ago, Saint Tacky said:

The Heisman Trophy has become an award for quarterbacks, as evidenced by the inclusion of Hurts, and to a lesser extent Fields.  Fields isn't even Ohio State's best player on offense.  That would be J.K Dobbins.   Dobbins' numbers versus top 15 rush defenses faced by OSU this season: Michigan State - 172 yards, one touchdown;  Penn State - 157 yards, two touchdowns; Michigan - 211 yards, four touchdowns; and, Wisconsin - 163 yards, two touchdowns and 171 yards, one touchdown in the title game.

Not saying he should win it over Burrow, but Dobbins' season stats are better than both Heisman Trophy winners Mark Ingram (2009) and Reggie Bush* (2005).  He is the Buckeye's MVP and most recent glaring example of how the Heisman Trophy has just become a more hyped version of the Davey O'Brien Award.

*cheater

No they aren't better than Reggie Bush's numbers.  Not really even close.  Both played 13 games.

Bush had 200 more yards from scrimmage and almost three more yards average per touch.  Bush averaged fucking 8.7 yards per carry compared to Dobbins 6.5.  Bush averaged 12.9 per catch compared to Dobbins 11.8.

Bush was sick in 2005.  Absolutely sick.

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Horn Dogg

Horn Dogg 4317

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12 hours ago, Kyrie Eleison said:

source.gif

If you think LSU will roll straight through OSU or Clemson you are either nuts, biased or both.  LSU gave up a shit ton of points to everyone, including us this year.  LSU has the offense to win it all no question, but the defense is very suspect.  Ohio State is a complete team, and Clemson probably is just as good but they need to prove it against a real team.  Look at the stats, OSU and Clemson are top 2 in total defense.  LSU is 32 in defense....there is a gap there.

Also noted is that Utah is #3 in defense.  We are fucked, but we are talking about you on this thread.

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Napoleon

Napoleon 8865

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12 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

No they aren't better than Reggie Bush's numbers.  Not really even close.  Both played 13 games.

Bush had 200 more yards from scrimmage and almost three more yards average per touch.  Bush averaged fucking 8.7 yards per carry compared to Dobbins 6.5.  Bush averaged 12.9 per catch compared to Dobbins 11.8.

Bush was sick in 2005.  Absolutely sick.

How did he do against Top 15 Rushing Defenses?

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Kyrie Eleison

Kyrie Eleison 9312

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Posted
11 hours ago, Horn Dogg said:

If you think LSU will roll straight through OSU or Clemson you are either nuts, biased or both.  LSU gave up a shit ton of points to everyone, including us this year.  LSU has the offense to win it all no question, but the defense is very suspect.  Ohio State is a complete team, and Clemson probably is just as good but they need to prove it against a real team.  Look at the stats, OSU and Clemson are top 2 in total defense.  LSU is 32 in defense....there is a gap there.

Also noted is that Utah is #3 in defense.  We are fucked, but we are talking about you on this thread.

prove it...

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

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Posted

Not directly related to this topic, but this is fascinating work and indicates that only QBs should be considered for awards pertaining to the most valuable or "best" player in a given league.  Also, interesting to note that RBs tend to be far more fungible than WRs.  

Quote

It’s obvious to anyone who watches football that quarterback is the most important position, so we’re not breaking ground when we say that PFF WAR confirms this. It is surprising (although if you’ve followed along, maybe less so) that the further away from the ball a player plays, the more valuable they appear to be. After quarterbacks, wide receivers, defensive backs and tight ends have the highest average WAR.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-what-is-pff-war-and-why-it-shows-russell-wilson-is-the-mvp

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:

It kinda makes sense that if the qb is the most valuable, then the guys he throws to and the guys that are supposed to stop that will be pretty high too.

The most interesting thing from that article, and the articles linked within it, is that the "games are won in the trenches" mantra may be bullshit, especially on defense where coverage players may be far more valuable than linemen and pass rushers.  

Edited by Fozzz
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sidis

sidis 10020

Posted
Posted (edited)

regarding lsu's defense...they played the following teams: georgia southern, texas, northwestern state, vanderbilt, utah state, florida, mississippi state, auburn, alabama, ole miss, arkansas, tamu, and georgia. 

i'll throw out georgia southern, northwestern state, and utah state from any analysis as they are irrelevant.

as for the rest, below is the number of points scored against lsu, their season average of ppg, and the opponent's national offensive ranking (in ppg).

texas - 38 - 35 (17th)

vanderbilt - 38 - 14 (127th)

florida - 28 - 31 (38th)

miss state - 13 - 26 (78th)

auburn - 20 - 32 (33rd)

alabama - 41 - 47 (2nd)

ole miss - 37 - 25 (83rd)

arkansas - 20 - 21 (104th)

tamu - 7 - 27 (70th)

uga - 10 - 28 (63rd)

this still is not statistically thorough as one would need to pull the lsu games out of those season averages to get to something more meaningful but i'm too fucking lazy to do that right now.

a few observations...lsu played a pretty weak lineup of offenses.  only two top 30 offenses on the schedule and they scored 38 and 41 (but both opponents were at home).  on average, gave up 25 to teams scoring an average of 28.  take out tamu and uga and that flips.  clearly they are playing their best defense at the end but if they think playing the aggie offense and the georgia offense is in anyway indicative of playing ou's offense, they're fooling themselves. 

lsu's defense is not great.  not bad either.  giving up lots of points on the road at ole miss and vandy to shit-tastic offenses throws things off a bit and are "weird."

lsu will beat ou by 10-17 but ou will score.  but ou will not stop lsu...particularly if murray is hurt.

only thing ou has going for it beyond a mediocre lsu d...burrow will win the heisman instead of hurts.  white, bradford, mayfield, and elf all won heismans and proceeded to lose to sec opponents lsu, florida, georgia, and alabama.

Edited by sidis
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sidis

sidis 10020

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, sidis said:

regarding lsu's defense...they played the following teams: georgia southern, texas, northwestern state, vanderbilt, utah state, florida, mississippi state, auburn, alabama, ole miss, arkansas, tamu, and georgia. 

i'll throw out georgia southern, northwestern state, and utah state from any analysis as they are irrelevant.

as for the rest, below is the number of points scored against lsu, their season average of ppg, and the opponent's national offensive ranking (in ppg).

texas - 38 - 35 (17th)

vanderbilt - 38 - 14 (127th)

florida - 28 - 31 (38th)

miss state - 13 - 26 (78th)

auburn - 20 - 32 (33rd)

alabama - 41 - 47 (2nd)

ole miss - 37 - 25 (83rd)

arkansas - 20 - 21 (104th)

tamu - 7 - 27 (70th)

uga - 10 - 28 (63rd)

this still is not statistically thorough as one would need to pull the lsu games out of those season averages to get to something more meaningful but i'm too fucking lazy to do that right now.

a few observations...lsu played a pretty weak lineup of offenses.  only two top 30 offenses on the schedule and they scored 38 and 41 (but both opponents were at home).  on average, gave up 25 to teams scoring an average of 28.  take out tamu and uga and that flips.  clearly they are playing their best defense at the end but if they think playing the aggie offense and the georgia offense is in anyway indicative of playing ou's offense, they're fooling themselves. 

lsu's defense is not great.  not bad either.  giving up lots of points on the road at ole miss and vandy to shit-tastic offenses throws things off a bit and are "weird."

lsu will beat ou by 10-17 but ou will score.  but ou will not stop lsu...particularly if murray is hurt.

only thing ou has going for it beyond a mediocre lsu d...burrow will win the heisman instead of hurts.  white, bradford, mayfield, and elf all won heismans and proceeded to lose to sec opponents lsu, florida, georgia, and alabama.  the year mayfield didn't win, they bitchslapped auburn.  knight didn't win and they pushed around alabama.

 

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PittsburghTiger

PittsburghTiger 6457

Posted
Posted

A friend of mine, Billy Fralic, who died last year, finished in the top-10 two straight years. In 1983, when Rozier won, Billy was 8th and the next year, when Flutie won, he was 6th.

 

My favorite year, and I say this with all sarcasm, is 1956 when Golden Boy Paul Hornung led Notre Dame to a fantastic 2-8 season and won the Heisman. Hornung threw for an awesome 3 TDs & 13 INTs. Another friend of mine, Coach Majors, finished second in 1956.

In 1956 the great Jim Brown finished 5th after leading Syracuse to a 7-2 record with losses to #10 Pitt and #14 TCU in the Cotton Bowl.

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satyanash

satyanash 15785

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28 minutes ago, PittsburghTiger said:

My favorite year, and I say this with all sarcasm, is 1956 when Golden Boy Paul Hornung led Notre Dame to a fantastic 2-8 season and won the Heisman. Hornung threw for an awesome 3 TDs & 13 INTs.

Hornung won the Heisman in '56 because he was white and played for Notre Dame. That's it.

Jim Brown was the best player in college football that year, but they were never going to give the Heisman to a black RB who played for Syracuse. Ernie Davis finally broke that colour barrier five years later.

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torre

torre 1298

Posted
Posted (edited)

Maria Taylor:  " Coach,  when was the game you knew Joe was not just elite,  he was Heisman worthy ?" 

Orgeron:   "It was Joe's team after Georgia last year.   But when he made that 3rd and 17 against Texas,  I thought we would go undefeated."

 

Orlando has been a key in the last 3 Heisman winners (Mayfield, Murray, Burrow).     But congrats Joe,  well deserved !

 

 

Edited by torre
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