How does democracy die?

[Nivek 17,016]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/faithless-elector-court-ruling-just-changed-how-we-pick-our-n1044961?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma

 

 

[DixonHur 11,406]

I think you'd have to have a democracy before it can die. 

We've never been a pure democracy precisely because of the electoral college.

[Js1 85,659]

Can't they already do that? Just a quick reminder from 2016: 

Bernie won 1 electoral vote
Kasich won 1 electoral vote
Ron Paul won 1 electoral vote
Colin Powell won 3 electoral votes
Faith Spotted Eagle won 1 electoral vote

The actual certified electoral vote total in 2016 was:

Trump 304
Clinton 227
Powell 3
Bernie/Kasich/Paul/Faith Spotted Eagle 1

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

I think you'd have to have a democracy before it can die. 

We've never been a pure democracy precisely because of the electoral college.

Thank goodness

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

Faith Spotted Eagle 1

Shocked that Dick Butt didn't pick up a single vote.

[horncyclist 1,391]

Gradually and then all at once. We're nearing phase two.

That said, that ruling is more complex than this case. Isn't part of the motivation behind the litigation to allow the possibility of following the national popular vote?

Edited August 22, 2019 by horncyclist

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

The question we should be asking is “How are healthy democracies born?”

[jimmyjazz 46,371]

I get why we instituted the Electoral College.  I'm pretty much in the "burn it down" camp at this point.  

[elfenix 34,366]

6 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Thank goodness

the way the EC is structured means that, instead of presidential elections getting dominated by Texas and California, both big states with big, dynamic, growing economies, it gets dominated by dying midwestern states.  and florida.

i don't think that's what we were signing up for. 

[InkaUtexas 26,277]

6 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The question we should be asking is “How are healthy democracies born?”

By not being a republic? Once you go down this route, create a divided electorate and society it is a bitch to be more progressive and make the step to 1 human 1 vote. 

Perhaps the question is how do we avoid becoming a dictatorship. 

[Js1 85,659]

3 minutes ago, elfenix said:

the way the EC is structured means that, instead of presidential elections getting dominated by Texas and California, both big states with big, dynamic, growing economies, it gets dominated by dying midwestern states.  and florida.

i don't think that's what we were signing up for. 

As long as Republicans win, he doesn't care.  At all.  Don't waste your time. 

[InkaUtexas 26,277]

3 minutes ago, elfenix said:

the way the EC is structured means that, instead of presidential elections getting dominated by Texas and California, both big states with big, dynamic, growing economies, it gets dominated by dying midwestern states.  and florida.

i don't think that's what we were signing up for. 

Delaware says um no. And please remember how Upstate NY votes. Saw more MAGA flags there than I do in Alabama. Well they don't have college football but still. 

[elfenix 34,366]

3 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Delaware says um no. And please remember how Upstate NY votes. Saw more MAGA flags there than I do in Alabama. Well they don't have college football but still. 

delaware, texas, california, and new york were basically in a tie for number of campaign stops in 2016 (2 total between the 4 states). 

 

south carolina had 0 as well.  someone might want to tell lindsay.

Edited August 22, 2019 by elfenix

[InkaUtexas 26,277]

3 minutes ago, elfenix said:

delaware, texas, california, and new york were basically in a tie for number of campaign stops in 2016 (2 total between the 4 states). 

 

south carolina had 0 as well.  someone might want to tell lindsay.

Campaign stops are not voters. They are sound bite collection activities. 

[elfenix 34,366]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Campaign stops are not voters. They are sound bite collection activities. 

true, they are not, but when we're talking about what states dominate, i'd say the actions of the campaigns in how they spend their limited amount of time is a pretty big indicator. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,595]

7 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Thank goodness

Here's the answer to OP.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

7 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

By not being a republic? Once you go down this route, create a divided electorate and society it is a bitch to be more progressive and make the step to 1 human 1 vote. 

Perhaps the question is how do we avoid becoming a dictatorship. 

Counterintuitive but...get rid of the Senate?

I know there are consequences to that but holy fuck this body of government managed to be too powerful, corrupt, and worthless at the same time. 

The electoral college has done a good job of protecting minority power over the last 20 years. 

[David Dennison 18,995]

7 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I get why we instituted the Electoral College.  I'm pretty much in the "burn it down" camp at this point.  

But we gotta protect the rural white people vote, errrrrrr, the small states.

[InkaUtexas 26,277]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Counterintuitive but...get rid of the Senate?

I know there are consequences to that but holy fuck this body of government managed to be too powerful, corrupt, and worthless at the same time. 

The electoral college has done a good job of protecting minority power over the last 20 years. 

Removing them will not change the biggest issue any democracy/republic faces. Shitty uninformed voters. And this applies to both sides. 

The experiment known as the United States of America is a daunting challenge. It does need evolution, however we will never be a homogenous people. I think the Senate allows legislative leadership that is needed. I would not get rid of it, but I would add term limits and true funding limits. No senator/congressman should go in worth 500K and be a multi-millionaire 4 years later. 

I said this before, and I felt it on a trip to DC from the Middle East back in 2010. We are becoming Rome. Today we are Rome. 

[sidis 9,832]

13 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Counterintuitive but...get rid of the Senate?

I know there are consequences to that but holy fuck this body of government managed to be too powerful, corrupt, and worthless at the same time. 

The electoral college has done a good job of protecting minority power over the last 20 years. 

the senate isn't necessarily the problem...it is the insane amount of power that the senate majority leader has over its entire agenda.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

9 minutes ago, sidis said:

the senate isn't necessarily the problem...it is the insane amount of power that the senate majority leader has over its entire agenda.

Okay so what would be a solution to that?  

[DixonHur 11,406]

Just now, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Okay so what would be a solution to that?  

How about a system where a 30 member quorum can bring any vote to the floor?

[Patrick Bateman 3,933]

With thunderous applause???

 

[F250 28,886]

44 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Delaware says um no. And please remember how Upstate NY votes. Saw more MAGA flags there than I do in Alabama. Well they don't have college football but still. 

#22 Ranked Syracuse.

Plenty of Syracuse fans in Upstate NY and yeah they are hardcore rednecks. Granted Syracuse is temporarily relevant in college football.

 

 

[InkaUtexas 26,277]

2 minutes ago, F250 said:

#22 Ranked Syracuse.

Plenty of Syracuse fans in Upstate NY and yeah they are hardcore rednecks. Granted Syracuse is temporarily relevant in college football.

 

 

Man, I am talking Rochester and points Northeast. 

[Biff Tannen 45,760]

The Catskills are a horrifying den of meth.

[F250 28,886]

20 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Okay so what would be a solution to that?  

Bring back the practice of a pistol duel.

[dcbc 14,566]

I thought the answer was "to thunderous applause."

 

 

 

/edit.  That's how liberty dies.

Edited August 22, 2019 by dcbc

[RDCanecutter 26,515]

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

Delaware says um no. And please remember how Upstate NY votes. Saw more MAGA flags there than I do in Alabama. Well they don't have college football but still. 

You were in Alabama and decided not to tell the Alabama Mafia? Splain Loocy.

[InkaUtexas 26,277]

1 minute ago, RDCanecutter said:

You were in Alabama and decided not to tell the Alabama Mafia? Splain Loocy.

incognito looking for hidden aggy. shhhh, por fa, no le diga al Labrador negro. 

[RDCanecutter 26,515]

Just now, InkaUtexas said:

incognito looking for hidden aggy. shhhh, por fa, no le diga al Labrador negro. 

ta vien, ehta bes no bamo a dezyr naa.

[InkaUtexas 26,277]

Vergon chavo. 

[Doc Sam Beckett 5,804]

Fuck the Electoral College, it's dumber than Donald. One person, one vote, and election day should be a national holiday. Let the dumb fuck trumpkins in California have their voice heard, and let the few remaining non dipshits in the south have their voice heard. 

[horncyclist 1,391]

Answer to the OP. Like this:

 

 

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2,652]

Isn’t this how it used to be?

[LABEVO 928]

Oh hi. 

[Degenerate Gardner 4,089]

I don't know but Republicans sure are killing the republic. 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

On 8/22/2019 at 5:49 PM, InkaUtexas said:

By not being a republic? Once you go down this route, create a divided electorate and society it is a bitch to be more progressive and make the step to 1 human 1 vote. 

Perhaps the question is how do we avoid becoming a dictatorship. 

The only way to avoid becoming a dictatorship is to keep the executive branch afraid of the power of the people. The people's power isn't necessarily the vote. It is in the people's expected reaction if the vote is taken away from the people. We are going to end up a dictatorship because the assumption is that we won't rise up against a dictator. That assumption is likely correct.  

Also, being a republic is fine. There are plenty of successful republics in the world.  That just means representative democracy.  All the rest of them have roughly equal voting power for each citizen.  We are the only country in the world that intentionally grants more voting power to some people based on where they live in our country. 

If anything, the USA is not even truly a republic since we don't directly elect the President, we don't have an equal say in "electing" those electors who appoint the President, our elected Senators represent vastly different numbers of constituents, and the House(the only true republic-style body) is essentially powerless. Instead, each individual state is a republic unto itself. The USA is a grouping of republics that decided to yield the primary powers they may have had as nation states to a tyrannical minority in other states.  The crazy thing about our tyrannical minority is that they don't give a shit about themselves. If West Virginia really wanted a fascist, you'd think they'd vote for a communist fascist to give the coal mine to the people. Instead, they keep voting for the owner of the coal mine to leave them with nothing but black lung and a pile of shit. 

Edited February 9, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[staboner 4,988]

3 hours ago, Degenerate Gardner said:

I don't know but Republicans sure are killing the republic. 

yes, they are. one mobster pulled the gun out on the other mobster. power move. 

thats how democracy dies. the common platforms are being removed. the institutions are being made unrecognizable so you stop believing in them. and when you protest anything or say anything at all that is "radical" or "challenging" its you that is panicking. you are being hysterical. 

[Neonmoon 38,130]

How does democracy die?

No term limits

[Bartles 769]

 

[B00M 6,528]

58 minutes ago, Bartles said:

 

Given the subject matter, I don't think this could have been done much better

[Bozo_Casanova 26,615]

How does Democracy die? The same way Hemingway said people go bankrupt: gradually, then suddenly.

[TexArcher 38,192]

It is true what someone said upthread: we've never been a democracy. 

We've always been an oligarchy masquerading as a democracy.  And the masqeurade broke down with the advent of super PACs.  We're just an open oligarchy now.  See the thread that talks about how 50% of the money injected into politics in the last decade came from 25 individuals.

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by TexArcher

[wildcat09 29,447]

This is as good a guess as any:

At least one constitutional sheriff has already expressed a desire to deputize thousands of militia members to "protect" 2nd amendment rights and now the federal government is implicitly telling these lunatics to do whatever the hell they want. The initial purges won't be carried out by the FBI or our military, they'll be carried out by lunatic militia groups deputized by lunatic sheriffs. The GOP will excuse it as unfortunate but necessary action against Antifa terrorists who are looking to strip Americans of their rights. Hell, Ted Cruz will openly cheer it on.

[Mrs Whiggins 13,050]

So, literal brown shirts but with pointy stars instead of swastikas? Makes absolute and terrifying sense.

Night of the Yeti Coolers so their Bud Light doesn't get warm while they're killing people.

[Biff Tannen 45,760]

25 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

This is as good a guess as any:

At least one constitutional sheriff has already expressed a desire to deputize thousands of militia members to "protect" 2nd amendment rights and now the federal government is implicitly telling these lunatics to do whatever the hell they want. The initial purges won't be carried out by the FBI or our military, they'll be carried out by lunatic militia groups deputized by lunatic sheriffs. The GOP will excuse it as unfortunate but necessary action against Antifa terrorists who are looking to strip Americans of their rights. Hell, Ted Cruz will openly cheer it on.

Shit like this can't be reversed once it gets too far gone.  We have one shot to save it in November.

[wildcat09 29,447]

8 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Shit like this can't be reversed once it gets too far gone.  We have one shot to save it in November.

There's a decent chance if the economy tanks and the polls start looking worse for Trump that some of them get started before November. 

[staboner 4,988]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

This is as good a guess as any:

At least one constitutional sheriff has already expressed a desire to deputize thousands of militia members to "protect" 2nd amendment rights and now the federal government is implicitly telling these lunatics to do whatever the hell they want. The initial purges won't be carried out by the FBI or our military, they'll be carried out by lunatic militia groups deputized by lunatic sheriffs. The GOP will excuse it as unfortunate but necessary action against Antifa terrorists who are looking to strip Americans of their rights. Hell, Ted Cruz will openly cheer it on.

this is sadly a good post. "Bottoms up" per say. Its obv already in action for decades - just depends on where you live and what color you are. The bleed is with us. Tops down fear mixed in with bottoms up power grabs and the slow death of liberty. And the marginalization of another layer of the "fringe" happens. Rinse and repeat. Scary shit man.

[Bozo_Casanova 26,615]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

This is as good a guess as any:

At least one constitutional sheriff has already expressed a desire to deputize thousands of militia members to "protect" 2nd amendment rights and now the federal government is implicitly telling these lunatics to do whatever the hell they want. The initial purges won't be carried out by the FBI or our military, they'll be carried out by lunatic militia groups deputized by lunatic sheriffs. The GOP will excuse it as unfortunate but necessary action against Antifa terrorists who are looking to strip Americans of their rights. Hell, Ted Cruz will openly cheer it on.

I love these rugged western individualists who apparently need to extract the value of other people's property at a discount to make money. It's about as capitalist as the collective farms and oil wells in the soviet union. 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Bozo_Casanova