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Jim Harbaugh NO LONGER coaches at Michigan

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28776

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2 minutes ago, Texasrocks said:

That's a fair point, though by that metric, I think Louisiana, Maryland and some other random states are probably higher than Ohio.

We should devote time to getting down in the weeds and working out an exact "metric." Because that would provide us with a more meaningful understanding of the football landscape. 

The point is that Ohio is a football state, Ohians love their high school football, they produce more talent than the state of Michigan does, and Michigan's most successful teams have relied heavily on Ohio talent. That's indisputable. It's not meant as an insult to any other state to say so. 

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Texasrocks

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2 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

We should devote time to getting down in the weeds and working out an exact "metric." Because that would provide us with a more meaningful understanding of the football landscape. 

The point is that Ohio is a football state, Ohians love their high school football, they produce more talent than the state of Michigan does, and Michigan's most successful teams have relied heavily on Ohio talent. That's indisputable. It's not meant as an insult to any other state to say so. 

I admit that I am completely ignorant when it comes to Ohio football. Though I'd be happy if Texas hired Urban Meyer even if he came from a total shit hole like Oklahoma. (And before anyone comments, yes, I know Darrell Royal is from Oklahoma.)

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NTVTXN

NTVTXN 1432

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21 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

We should devote time to getting down in the weeds and working out an exact "metric." Because that would provide us with a more meaningful understanding of the football landscape. 

The point is that Ohio is a football state, Ohians love their high school football, they produce more talent than the state of Michigan does, and Michigan's most successful teams have relied heavily on Ohio talent. That's indisputable. It's not meant as an insult to any other state to say so. 

Damn, as Horn fan and a proud Native (yeah I capitalized it) Texan, this hits hard. 🖕🏻ou

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28776

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51 minutes ago, Texasrocks said:

I admit that I am completely ignorant when it comes to Ohio football. Though I'd be happy if Texas hired Urban Meyer even if he came from a total shit hole like Oklahoma. (And before anyone comments, yes, I know Darrell Royal is from Oklahoma.)

And Gary Patterson is from Kansas. 

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VirginiaLonghorn

VirginiaLonghorn 4771

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6 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

When Chris Spielman was in high school they put him on the Wheaties box. He was going to commit to Michigan but his dad said, "No you're not" and made him go to Ohio State. 

1984-chris-spielman-search-champions_1_5

.. and with karma as his bitch, Spielman was sentenced to be Beth Mowins’ partner in the CFB TV afterlife.

Doomed ...

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28776

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3 minutes ago, VirginiaLonghorn said:

.. and with karma as his bitch, Spielman was sentenced to be Beth Mowins’ partner in the CFB TV afterlife.

Doomed ...

I guess maybe when he was first starting out in broadcasting? I just know he was a long time broadcasting partner of Sean McDonough who became a much better football analyst as a result. I miss Spielman's work calling college football games. I still hear him doing Browns games from time to time. But he sees the game like a chess grand master sees a chess board. It's like he has an eye on all 22 players at once. I'm always amazed at how quickly he can break down exactly what happened on any given play. He can diagnose it faster than they can run the instant replay.

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Armybrat

Armybrat 40832

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9 hours ago, Texasrocks said:

I admit that I am completely ignorant when it comes to Ohio football. Though I'd be happy if Texas hired Urban Meyer even if he came from a total shit hole like Oklahoma. (And before anyone comments, yes, I know Darrell Royal is from Oklahoma.)

Darrell Royal was born in Hollis, which was located in Greer County before it was stolen from Texas by the land thieves who obviously bought off the federal courts.

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LTtxfan

LTtxfan 49173

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3 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I guess maybe when he was first starting out in broadcasting? I just know he was a long time broadcasting partner of Sean McDonough who became a much better football analyst as a result. I miss Spielman's work calling college football games. I still hear him doing Browns games from time to time. But he sees the game like a chess grand master sees a chess board. It's like he has an eye on all 22 players at once. I'm always amazed at how quickly he can break down exactly what happened on any given play. He can diagnose it faster than they can run the instant replay.

Spielman and Moose are underrated football announcers... both provide quality analysis.

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SwanderedTalent

SwanderedTalent 5761

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1 hour ago, LTtxfan said:

Spielman and Moose are underrated football announcers... both provide quality analysis.

Yeah, listen to one game of Herbstreit, and then one of Spielman. When they telestrate a play, Herbstreit offers nothing but superficial analysis and football-speak cliches, e.g., "They came with the blitz from the outside linebacker, but Baylor was ready for it and you can see here he hits the slant, gets his playmaker in space, gain of 14, first down" or "that's just a great play by the receiver to high-point the ball". 

Spielman will notice some arcane bit of football minutiae, explain it and why it's significant, and then extrapolate that to what is likely to happen going forward, and he'll actually be right. I've seen him catch offensive linemen tipping run/pass before the snap. 

Not saying Spielman never uses hyperbole or cliches, just that as a color guy his understanding of the game comes through clearly. Herbstreit just sounds like literally any half-informed football fan you've ever watched a game with. And that makes sense, because it's been more than 25 years since he took a snap from center. It's not like he's particularly well-versed in how a modern quarterback plays the position. I mean, his time at Ohio State predates Charlie Ward's Heisman season at Florida State. 

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Dennis Taylor

Dennis Taylor 18812

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48 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

Yeah, listen to one game of Herbstreit, and then one of Spielman. When they telestrate a play, Herbstreit offers nothing but superficial analysis and football-speak cliches, e.g., "They came with the blitz from the outside linebacker, but Baylor was ready for it and you can see here he hits the slant, gets his playmaker in space, gain of 14, first down" or "that's just a great play by the receiver to high-point the ball". 

Spielman will notice some arcane bit of football minutiae, explain it and why it's significant, and then extrapolate that to what is likely to happen going forward, and he'll actually be right. I've seen him catch offensive linemen tipping run/pass before the snap. 

Not saying Spielman never uses hyperbole or cliches, just that as a color guy his understanding of the game comes through clearly. Herbstreit just sounds like literally any half-informed football fan you've ever watched a game with. And that makes sense, because it's been more than 25 years since he took a snap from center. It's not like he's particularly well-versed in how a modern quarterback plays the position. I mean, his time at Ohio State predates Charlie Ward's Heisman season at Florida State. 

Chris Spielman is a really good announcer and a card-carrying badass and great guy in general. Was the first high schooler on a Wheaties box

spacer.png  

Stepped away from a 4 time pro bowl NFL career to care for his cancer stricken wife while being a major spokesman foir the cause. His foundation has raised over $25MM for research and there is a breast cancer center in Columbus that bears his wife's name. ...and he did this

 

 

 

Edited by Dennis Taylor
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SwanderedTalent

SwanderedTalent 5761

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6 minutes ago, redswingline said:

I just glanced at his Michigan record. He's won 70% of his games there.

Shouldn't Michigan be happy with that?

 

Four problems as I see it.

One, he's never beating Ohio State and he's 50/50 against Michigan State. Those are the two most important games on their schedule every year (sorry Notre Dame).

Two, the program seems to have a permanent ceiling at 70%, no better than co-Division Champs, no conference titles, no Rose Bowls. That is too low for Michigan's taste. 

Three, he routinely loses his last two regular season games (Ohio State and then the bowl) so Michigan goes into every off-season feeling like the season was a failure-- even 2016, his best year there.

Four, their biggest rival is at the Clemson/Alabama level. Whatever Michigan's ceiling is, they will never be happy if it seems permanently lower than Ohio State's. 

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redswingline

redswingline 1057

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7 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

Four problems as I see it.

One, he's never beating Ohio State and he's 50/50 against Michigan State. Those are the two most important games on their schedule every year (sorry Notre Dame).

Two, the program seems to have a permanent ceiling at 70%, no better than co-Division Champs, no conference titles, no Rose Bowls. That is too low for Michigan's taste. 

Three, he routinely loses his last two regular season games (Ohio State and then the bowl) so Michigan goes into every off-season feeling like the season was a failure-- even 2016, his best year there.

Four, their biggest rival is at the Clemson/Alabama level. Whatever Michigan's ceiling is, they will never be happy if it seems permanently lower than Ohio State's. 

Good points.

But then, who would do a better job?

I think if they can him, they'll be pulling a Nebraska a'la Frank Solich  .

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Juicy

Juicy 727

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1 hour ago, SwanderedTalent said:

I'm surprised you think that. I think Joe Milton is actually a pretty good QB prospect, even if the Michigan fans/bloggers have been badly overrating him since McCaffrey's name hit the portal. 

I think Milton is fine, but letting Peters transfer so you can play Shea Patterson for another year is a bad move. Milton will get better but he locks on his WR and just throws darts everywhere. The arm strength is amazing but throwing a deep ball as a line drive doesn't give much room for error.

 

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VABuckeye

VABuckeye 2472

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12 minutes ago, Errestaurants said:

Not sure if it's been brought up but there's alot of hate towards OSU fans based on how you guys treated us back in '06. 

I get that but let's not pretend it was every Ohioan in the world that did that.  That behaviour was embarrasing and has been corrected.  Hopefully, our scheduled home and home happens and we can show you proper hospitality.  I know any Texas fans on this site that make the trip are welcome at my tailgate.

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ztejas

ztejas 43418

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16 minutes ago, Errestaurants said:

Not sure if it's been brought up but there's alot of hate towards OSU fans based on how you guys treated us back in '06. 

Aggy is easy to make fun of but in my experience they are much nicer and well-meaning people than most tosu fans.

People from Ohio tend to be assholes. Most aggys aren't assholes, just oblivious, dorky morons.

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Juicy

Juicy 727

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29 minutes ago, redswingline said:

He is  20-9  in his last 29 games, which includes 2 bowl losses.

2018   10-3

2019     9-4

2020     1-2

adding in his best season at michigan doesn't change the fact that since then he is a .500 coach. That is not good. 

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SwanderedTalent

SwanderedTalent 5761

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24 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

I get that but let's not pretend it was every Ohioan in the world that did that.  That behaviour was embarrasing and has been corrected.  Hopefully, our scheduled home and home happens and we can show you proper hospitality.  I know any Texas fans on this site that make the trip are welcome at my tailgate.

counterpoint, What The Buck is absolutely worse than an Aggie

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Juicy

Juicy 727

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Just now, redswingline said:

 You added the 3 losses from the 2018 season, but you omitted all the wins. 

 

 

Because they happened at the end of the year. Beating 4 Mac teams, Rutgers and Illinois doesn't move the needle much. Again its about the recent record. 10-9 in his last 19 games. No Michigan fan cares that he started a season with 10 wins and then got bombed back to back to end the season. Michigan plays O$U the last week of the season, that game means more than all the rest combined, and getting bombed in bowl games doesn't help cleanse the palate. 

There is not much of a chance to finish this season with a winning record so that puts him below .500. This isn't about what he did at Stanford or what he did in San Fran, I am grateful that he brought some stability to the program and took UofM out of the DickRod/cHoke doldrums but he isn't the coach he was when he got to UofM, you can see that not only in the record, but just the way he behaves on the sidelines. If he showed half the passion he once did I would be happy to keep him, but 5 false starts in the first half of the game. The refs throwing flags on every deep ball against Michigan and when Michigan WR get pulled down and tackled, he doesn't get pissed just stands there with a dumb look on his face. 

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redswingline

redswingline 1057

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1 hour ago, Juicy said:

Because they happened at the end of the year. Beating 4 Mac teams, Rutgers and Illinois doesn't move the needle much. Again its about the recent record. 10-9 in his last 19 games.

They didn't lose 3 games at the end of 2018. They lost the first game, won ten straight (wins vs. Ranked teams Wisconsin, Michigan State, Pedophile State and Northwestern, who would finish ranked and with 9 wins) before losing to ohio state.

If you want to go back 19 games and skip all of those wins, then he is 11-8, not 10-9.

I feel your pain though. It's frustrating when the wins that you really want are not there. That's what it sounds like.

What I would do is just be happy with the 9 win a year average that he is delivering.

 

 

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Juicy

Juicy 727

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8 minutes ago, redswingline said:

They didn't lose 3 games at the end of 2018. They lost the first game, won ten straight (wins vs. Ranked teams Wisconsin, Michigan State, Pedophile State and Northwestern, who would finish ranked and with 9 wins) before losing to ohio state.

If you want to go back 19 games and skip all of those wins, then he is 11-8, not 10-9.

I feel your pain though. It's frustrating when the wins that you really want are not there. That's what it sounds like.

What I would do is just be happy with the 9 win a year average that he is delivering.

 

 

What do you suggest for the 3-5 2-6 season we are about to witness? I can't just give a pass because of Covid. The coaches are continually putting the players in position to fail rather than succeed. 

If Wiscy beats UofM this week with no offensive line and their 5th string QB (Michigan doesn''t even have 5 QBs on the roster so....) It would appear it is a coaching problem. I would love to just yell "FIGURE IT OUT" but it is clear that that isn't something Jimmy can do. 

Give me Tom Allen. 

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redswingline

redswingline 1057

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10 minutes ago, Juicy said:

What do you suggest for the 3-5 2-6 season we are about to witness? I can't just give a pass because of Covid. The coaches are continually putting the players in position to fail rather than succeed. 

If Wiscy beats UofM this week with no offensive line and their 5th string QB (Michigan doesn''t even have 5 QBs on the roster so....) It would appear it is a coaching problem. I would love to just yell "FIGURE IT OUT" but it is clear that that isn't something Jimmy can do. 

Give me Tom Allen. 

You mentioned earlier his passion is not the same. Maybe it is time for a change. I don't know if he had a coaching break between the 49ers job and Michigan, but if not he's coaching since 2004. That has to be immensely draining, with the pressure at Michigan 10X as much as it would have been at Stanford or 100x of San Diego before that. 

It's either rare or becoming rare for coaches to get to 7-8 seasons with one program now and this is Harbaughs 6th with Michigan? People want wins now, all the time and nothing less. Or, coaches win and jump after 3-4 seasons to something different.  I dunno. Just thinking different things here. So maybe he's worn out and needs to stop coaching for a while or completely. Who knows.

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alincoln

alincoln 2371

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Harbaugh had a 20-4 record at Michigan heading into the 2016 Ohio State game (27-30 2OT loss). He's 28-16 since.  That game broke Harbaugh.

2017: 8-5 with three losses to end the season

2018: 10-3 with a 62-39 loss to OSU and a 41-15 loss to Florida to end the season

2019: 9-4 with a 56-27 loss to OSU and a 35-16 loss to Bama to end the season

2020: Dumpster fire with a 4-4 record probably the best case scenario and 2-6 a legitimate possibility

It's reminiscent of the latter Mack years at Texas 

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redswingline

redswingline 1057

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19 minutes ago, Juicy said:

Give me Tom Allen. 

I just noticed this.  If Indiana wins the B10 in 2021, then sure. Go get him. But how often do head coaches leave and go to another team in the same conference.. as HC? I can't think of any in the B12 that have done it.

Yes, they are 3-0 this year. So what? This year was over before it began. Nothing counts, huge asterisks next to anything that would be meaningful. Teams are playing in empty stadiums all over the country. Games get cancelled on a whim. Players can't stay focused. Forget this season its meaningless.

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28776

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4 hours ago, VABuckeye said:

Milton's biggest problem right now is that every throw is a fastball.  One he learns to take something off the throw and put a little air under the ball his deep throws will be more on target.

Whether he can get the instruction to do that or not at Michigan is debatable.

Based on 5+ years of watching Harbaugh up close, I don't see any significant development in his future. 

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Juicy

Juicy 727

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22 minutes ago, redswingline said:

I just noticed this.  If Indiana wins the B10 in 2021, then sure. Go get him. But how often do head coaches leave and go to another team in the same conference.. as HC? I can't think of any in the B12 that have done it.

Yes, they are 3-0 this year. So what? This year was over before it began. Nothing counts, huge asterisks next to anything that would be meaningful. Teams are playing in empty stadiums all over the country. Games get cancelled on a whim. Players can't stay focused. Forget this season its meaningless.

I don't care what IU's record ends up at the end of the year. His team looks prepared, the coaches are adjusting their scheme week to week, and the team doesn't play scared. That is the exact opposite of how Michigan looks right now. 

Harbaugh could have had a sabbatical this season if he needed a break, instead he spoke out against the b1g, protested to get a season and now is being exposed. I don't know if he is delusional and really thought this team was going to be good, or if he really can't assess talent anymore, seeing what I have I don't see why he pressed so hard to play this year.  

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28776

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2 hours ago, Errestaurants said:

Not sure if it's been brought up but there's alot of hate towards OSU fans based on how you guys treated us back in '06. 

You obviously weren't one of the Texas fans I welcomed to join me at my table in a jam-packed Varsity Club. 

I was there all day. Were you? I don't think this is the thread to talk about it but I've been exposed to "Fuck Ohio State!" more times since joining Shaggy in 2013 than every Texas fan collectively heard "Fuck Texas!" from drunken college age Buckeye fans in 2005. 

Oh, sure, I raped your wife and daughters after the game. That's standard practice in Columbus, of course. But you just stood there and watched! You didn't take a photo with your flip-phone or even call the cops.

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Errestaurants

Errestaurants 2570

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2 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

You obviously weren't one of the Texas fans I welcomed to join me at my table in a jam-packed Varsity Club. 

I was there all day. Were you? I don't think this is the thread to talk about it but I've been exposed to "Fuck Ohio State!" more times since joining Shaggy in 2013 than every Texas fan collectively heard "Fuck Texas!" from drunken college age Buckeye fans in 2005. 

Oh, sure, I raped your wife and daughters after the game. That's standard practice in Columbus, of course. But you just stood there and watched! You didn't take a photo with your flip-phone or even call the cops.

Hey man, I wasn't calling you out. Just commenting on the hate for OSU fans vs Aggie fans. Not sure what i triggered but you are a Buckeye on a UT forum and I'm cool with that. 

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