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Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 1:51 PM, WinningIsHard said:

I have a honest question, if saban or kirby had to actually recruit instead of cheating their balls off would they be as successful? Do we have a couple more titles if we don't lose players to cheating ass paying programs over the last 25 years or so? I don't understand why the cheating has to be so obvious for anybody to do something about it. Michigan should pay, but so should every other cheating slimy shit hook program. 

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Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 11:53 AM, USNALonghorn said:

I wish it did, but it doesn’t. My time in service counter started when I graduated. There are some perks that being an academy grad gives you (lineal number bump for promotion), but a four year head start would be way too unfair in front of our ROTC counterparts.

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Thank you, I appreciate you. I was puzzled and had gone and checked. Apparently it counts as service time for retirement purposes for enlisted grades (flunkouts who stay in?) but not officers, if I'm reading the legalese correctly. It apparently also counts for non-military fed service time retirement calculations and other purposes that do not refer to officers - again, if I'm reading correctly. Apparently, the dividing line begins upon commission, i.e. when one becomes an officer, which makes sense. Thanks, again.

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Posted

B1G coaches: “Ban Michigan from the post season.  You have the authority.  Use it.”

B1G Commish: “I do.  And banning them will cost each of you millions in bowl money cost sharing.  I’ll do it. Your call.  Tell me what to do.”

Coaches: (silence)

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Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 9:47 AM, choripan said:

FWIW, I played college football on the defensive side at a major D1 program (walk-on with some PT, not a real guy, though!).

There seems to be a thread here where the media, who has an obvious interest in keeping a story going, and internet people are making a big deal of this.

And with rare exception, most former players, former coaches, and current coaches without a vested interest are like "sign stealing, yeah, we've done it, they've done it. It's part of the game." For my part, I can say that against pretty much every team we played in the early 2000s, we had their signs and we also practiced until we got their favorite base 5-10 plays down cold.

So I don't see the big deal. Good on Meatchicken for being good at what everyone does. The only way I think Michigan meaningfully gets hurt on this is if the NCAA trumps up some sort of technicality.

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What years did you play for Michigan?

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Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 3:05 PM, Parliament said:

B1G coaches: “Ban Michigan from the post season.  You have the authority.  Use it.”

B1G Commish: “I do.  And banning them will cost each of you millions in bowl money cost sharing.  I’ll do it. Your call.  Tell me what to do.”

Coaches: (silence)

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how much money do you think Michigan would bring in?  The Big 10 distributes all bowl money equally.  A college football playoff spot garners about $6 million.  So assuming Michigan would make the CFP and no other Big 10 school would, that would mean the loss of $6 million over 14 teams, or about $425k.  

I'm guessing the schools aren't sweating that amount of money if they want to see Michigan punished.

Posted

Uncle Urban and I have the same opinion on something for once. He must be a slappy Michigan fan at heart. 

 

  Quote

“This is really the first time, because it’s you and a guy I respect—so I’m very cautious,” Meyer said on the show, per On3 Sports. “I’ve been asked over 100 times to comment on it and I just won’t. But I am going to, I’ll tell you my thoughts: First of all I’m very skeptical of reporters reporting. My experience is they’re wrong most of the time. And that’s not a shot at the media, that’s reality. People say things that they’re reporting that’s just not true. So I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt saying, first of all it’s hard for me to believe that is true.”

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Posted

My point would be that it is advantageous for the media to make this look as scandalous as possible for clicks and views. Maybe it comes out that everything being reported is 100% true. Maybe after the investigation happens it comes out that it wasn't as bad as it currently appears. 

 

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Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 3:40 PM, Juicy said:

My point would be that it is advantageous for the media to make this look as scandalous as possible for clicks and views. Maybe it comes out that everything being reported is 100% true. Maybe after the investigation happens it comes out that it wasn't as bad as it currently appears. 

 

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The media doesn’t need for it to “look scandalous.” It IS scandalous. 

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Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 3:40 PM, Juicy said:

My point would be that it is advantageous for the media to make this look as scandalous as possible for clicks and views. Maybe it comes out that everything being reported is 100% true. Maybe after the investigation happens it comes out that it wasn't as bad as it currently appears. 

 

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Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 3:35 PM, Juicy said:

Uncle Urban and I have the same opinion on something for once. He must be a slappy Michigan fan at heart. 

 

 

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Well, Urban is a proven liar, so at least you two have something in common.

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Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 3:40 PM, Juicy said:

My point would be that it is advantageous for the media to make this look as scandalous as possible for clicks and views. Maybe it comes out that everything being reported is 100% true. Maybe after the investigation happens it comes out that it wasn't as bad as it currently appears. 

 

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This is one of the juiciest, most entertaining and scandalous stories to hit college football in a long time. It has cheating, espionage, military, ticket receipts, videos footage, security breaches, etc. And its mostly been crickets outside of those who are hardcore about college football.

No CR, but I think Fox prefers to gloss over it because they have the rights to the Big Ten games. Do advertisers pull out because it’s a league of cheaters? Should Fox lean in and open up the vault of Big Ten games to drive eyeballs to their streaming sites? I’m sure tons of people would love to go back and stream lots of old Big Ten games looking for crazy shit on the sidelines. 

I’m sure everyone is hesitant to make a big move because new stuff keeps coming out almost daily.

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Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 9:47 AM, choripan said:

FWIW, I played college football on the defensive side at a major D1 program (walk-on with some PT, not a real guy, though!).

...

For my part, I can say that against pretty much every team we played in the early 2000s, we had their signs and we also practiced until we got their favorite base 5-10 plays down cold.

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Lol.  How many of your opponents used offensive sideline signals in the early 2000s?  

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Posted (edited)
  On 11/2/2023 at 4:00 PM, Huckleberry said:

You get dumber with every post. This isn't reporters saying things. There are pictures. And videos. People are seeing things with their own eyes. 

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This is where I'm at on the topic, there are pictures and paper trails that are known things. This isn't some large circumstantial issue, the opponents signals are on laminated sheets on the Michigan sidelines. 

On National Broadcast Video and Pictures from the stands. 

There is no other rational explanation, the evidence is there, the will to do anything about it is the only thing in question. 

I think its still an open question if there are other scandals, further evidence of deeper organizational involvement, but those punishments do not need to be tied together. 

Case 1 is effectively concluded, and so should its punishment 

Edited by BigHornedLurker
Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 2:46 PM, closetojumping said:

It's basically a Black Swan comparison. Mediocristan is where player talents and coaching talents reside. The best player in the nation at a position versus the worst player at the same position at the same level is a big gap, but it isn't the Grand Canyon. It's why Rice could beat Texas and App State could beat Michigan. All of the unknown variables about what 22 moving bodies are about to do still exist as the risk before every snap.

Having another team's signals married to their playcalls resides in Extremistan. The gap between knowing virtually everything the opponent is going to do versus the opponent just working off of film study and practices is not Grand Canyon wide, it's galaxies wide. You have suddenly removed most variables, which are virtually incalculable, for all 22 players' actions after the snap. It's no longer the same game being played. 

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I think some people want to naively fall back into the idea that the player still has to make a play and ignore the concept that all plays are not independent of each other.

Having any one play in itself is a huge advantage from the players standpoint, but when it gets outlandish is when you know it multiple plays in a row from a play caller’s standpoint . What then compounds it is when you know it multiple plays in a row and it lets you then dictate situational play calling.

So you know the play calls and see reactive on D and so you force more 3 and outs or limit times the O crosses midfield. Now because of it, you are forcing the opposing D to play more and become fatigued. So even if you can’t react as dynamically on O yourself, you are wearing down the defense more and more and steadily winning the battle of field position.

Where this then gets even worse is now you have opponents getting behind sooner and therefore needing to be more aggressive in play calling, which tend to have to lead to plays with a  large boom or bust component to begin with, but now you know what most of the calls are… Any play call you don’t recognize you signal to the D to play conservative and limit a potential big play. Any trick play or high leverage situation you know the play call for would lead to that much higher likelihood of a big loss of yards…

The whole thing is a fucking spiral. Know the plays, limit their O, which puts their D on the field more plus the advantage they f knowing their sideline calls to audible, which leads to more scoring/tired D, which leads to a more aggressive opponents O, which leads to bigger loss of yards, and you back on O against a tired D again….

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Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 3:59 PM, Billy Pilgrim said:

You’re quoting a guy who has an ax to grind against the media because they bring all the shitty stuff he does to light.

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He's always had an adversarial role with regards to the media.

Back at Florida, he verbally attacked an Orlando Sentinel reporter for quoting a Florida player comparing Tebow to Brantley and threatened to ban the paper from practice for 5 years.

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Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 4:17 PM, Laxtonto said:

I think some people want to naively fall back into the idea that the player still has to make a play and ignore the concept that all plays are not independent of each other.

Having any one play in itself is a huge advantage from the players standpoint, but when it gets outlandish is when you know it multiple plays in a row from a play caller’s standpoint . What then compounds it is when you know it multiple plays in a row and it lets you then dictate situational play calling.

So you know the play calls and see reactive on D and so you force more 3 and outs or limit times the O crosses midfield. Now because of it, you are forcing the opposing D to play more and become fatigued. So even if you can’t react as dynamically on O yourself, you are wearing down the defense more and more and steadily winning the battle of field position.

Where this then gets even worse is now you have opponents getting behind sooner and therefore needing to be more aggressive in play calling, which tend to have to lead to plays with a  large boom or bust component to begin with, but now you know what most of the calls are… Any play call you don’t recognize you signal to the D to play conservative and limit a potential big play. Any trick play or high leverage situation you know the play call for would lead to that much higher likelihood of a big loss of yards…

The whole thing is a fucking spiral. Know the plays, limit their O, which puts their D on the field more plus the advantage they f knowing their sideline calls to audible, which leads to more scoring/tired D, which leads to a more aggressive opponents O, which leads to bigger loss of yards, and you back on O against a tired D again….

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Great points. The whole issue is nonlinear. It's part of what makes the whole "hurrrrrrrr, duurrrrrrrr, you still gotta make the play!" nonsense, spouted by players and coaches who aren't particularly bright, along with various talking heads, just fucking laughable. You don't have to make one play with the odds stacked against. You have to make all of the plays with the odds against you, and if you fail to, the problem augments on you at great speed.

Overly simplified chaos theory is another way to look at a football game and each team's plans. Each team starts with a set of plans and players, then the game starts, 22 variables interact on each play and things fractal out into the unknown as the game unfolds. If one side is able to govern the variables and environment in some form, however, they're no longer operating on the same theoretical playing field and in far higher degree of control of the overall outcome.

Sure, no advantage there alright.

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Posted

the notion that former football players aren't that upset about teams knowing their plays as they are called is most likely only true in the case of the bad mother fuckers on the field. Ricky williams, vince young, adrian peterson, Suh, derrick johnson, leonard davis, etc. These are guys who can whip peoples asses 1 on 1 even if the other guy knows what's coming. It's bullshit for the rest of the population which is 99%. I remember playing at mary hardin baylor as a freshman and the worst plays were when your coach would say "line it up and run it again", the other side knew what was coming and it was a shit show. LB's would smash into gaps with reckless abandon, safeties would crash down full speed. It fucking sucked. If I was looking across at all conference or all american defensive players and they knew what was coming....ball game. 

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Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 4:00 PM, JBJ said:

Lol.  How many of your opponents used offensive sideline signals in the early 2000s?  

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Not sure what you mean by this but high schools have used offensive and defensive sideline signals since the 70s.  We had two coaches sending the play in with signals.  One was live, the other was a dummy.  

Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 4:34 PM, hullabelew said:

Not sure what you mean by this but high schools have used offensive and defensive sideline signals since the 70s.  We had two coaches sending the play in with signals.  One was live, the other was a dummy.  

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No.  Defensive signals were common. Offensive signals weren't at all.  We had zero offensive signals.  Even in two minute we used a rote script and audible calls.  Nothing was ever signaled in from the sideline.

I only ever played one team that used offensive signals.

Posted (edited)
  On 11/2/2023 at 4:48 PM, JBJ said:

No.  Defensive signals were common. Offensive signals weren't at all.  We had zero offensive signals.  Even in two minute we used a rote script and audible calls.  Nothing was ever signaled in from the sideline.

I only ever played one team that used offensive signals.

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In 1978, our small 2A school signaled in off/def plays from the sidelines. 

Edited by hullabelew
Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 4:50 PM, hullabelew said:

In 1978, our small 2A school signaled in off/def plays from the sidelines.  

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Seems weird to me. I played Tx 5A D3 and D1 in the late 90s- early 00s.

Maybe it fell out of favor and came back with HUNH.

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Posted
  On 11/2/2023 at 3:35 PM, Juicy said:

Uncle Urban and I have the same opinion on something for once. He must be a slappy Michigan fan at heart. 

 

 

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or currently be employed by a TV network that has a vested interest in the Big10.  He's on the opposing team of the ESPN is pushing an agenda argument.

 

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Posted

So I don’t know of you guys ever saw it, but 4 or 5 years ago there was a great video about developing a phone app to crack baseball signals. It is a super simple concept and something my undergrads can do.

What I am curious with now is how hard is it to do the same thing in real time with in game sign data? Or is this even a topic I should be saying out loud? All it is is an im sequence identification algorithm overlayed with some type of formational concept. 
 

I wonder how many play calls would it take to reach a point where you could accurately determine a set of signals were pass or run? How many to get deeper into things like route trees or run direction… 

I am fairly sure this could be something that could be done in real time and develop an app that gets put on the sideline and press box ipads. You could even take away the manual component and set up a camera in game and live capture their signs and load it straight into the machine….

Ill shut up now before this opens Pandora’s box..

Posted

Give every player on offense and defense a wristband with all of the plays numbered.

Send the play number in from the sidelines which can by done by three or four guys with only one of them being "Hot".

Change the wristbands every quarter.

Problem solved.

Posted (edited)
  On 11/2/2023 at 5:32 PM, Steamboat1874 said:

Give every player on offense and defense a wristband with all of the plays numbered.

Send the play number in from the sidelines which can by done by three or four guys with only one of them being "Hot".

Change the wristbands every quarter.

Problem solved.

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Just don't grab the wrong wristbands

-2019 Florida vs Georgia

Edited by gatormarc
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Posted (edited)

NSIAP

https://theathletic.com/5024796/2023/11/02/big-ten-coaches-call-michigan-sign-stealing/?source=twitterhq

  Reveal hidden contents

Great quotes in there. 

Edited by hornbri
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