Jim Harbaugh NO LONGER coaches at Michigan

[Francisco 2.0 32318]

1 minute ago, blutow said:

The most entertaining outcome would be watching the season play out and UM falling apart because their success was based on knowing the signs.  I assume there is no way they can continue doing it since they will be under a microscope.  

 

Well, that plus all the schools changing everything they have done up until now, plus the network has ceased to exist (wonder who is going to sell the unused tix for other games the rest of the season?) so yeah; I'd expect Michigan to be a little more subdued.

[Gaffords 755]

2 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

Well, that plus all the schools changing everything they have done up until now, plus the network has ceased to exist (wonder who is going to sell the unused tix for other games the rest of the season?) so yeah; I'd expect Michigan to be a little more subdued.

It's not so easy to just change the signals suddenly on both sides of the ball.  It's almost like learning the plays all over again. I can see ne signals being an issue in uptempo and hurry up situations especially.

 

 

 

[Francisco 2.0 32318]

https://www.detroitnews.com/restricted/?return=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.detroitnews.com%2Fstory%2Fsports%2Fcollege%2Funiversity-michigan%2Fwolverines%2F2023%2F10%2F25%2Fncaa-gets-access-um-coaches-cell-phones-tablets-in-sign-stealing-probe%2F71319682007%2F

 

Quote

NCAA investigators now have access to cell phones and tablets from Michigan coaches, presumably to search for any evidence of communication or collusion with suspended low-level staffer Connor Stalions, who allegedly illegally obtained opponents’ sideline play-call signals.

Several sources told The Detroit News on Wednesday that the phones and tablets were obtained by the NCAA this week. Investigators obtain the data from those devices via mirroring, which projects the contents to another device. The next step in the NCAA process is conducting interviews, which could begin in the next few days, and investigators likely will start with Stalions to then determine how to proceed.

 

 

[Francisco 2.0 32318]

4 minutes ago, Gaffords said:

It's not so easy to just change the signals suddenly on both sides of the ball.  It's almost like learning the plays all over again. I can see ne signals being an issue in uptempo and hurry up situations especially.

 

 

 

 

Oh, I get that; it would be like going from the english to sanskrit in midseason.  But no one is going to take that risk playing Michigan.  Hell, they may just go full huddle on offense if it needs to be done.

 

 

[Clintonaldo 2571]

The NCAA is aware that Michigan may have given out info against potential opponents. The Tennessee South Carolina game is on their radar. 

[Gaffords 755]

6 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

Oh, I get that; it would be like going from the english to sanskrit in midseason.  But no one is going to take that risk playing Michigan.  Hell, they may just go full huddle on offense if it needs to be done.

 

 

Exactly.... advantage Michigan!  And it's both sides of the ball.  Defense is playing the run...  or blitz coming... that's probably bigger than the O-side.  Maybe there's a reason they suddenly became so dominant?   Thry probably should have spent more time on TCU's signals instead of spending it all on Georgia.  lol.

Changing signals at this point of the season will be a tall step.  I think they only have 20 hours to practice a week which really isn't enoough as it is.

[Bogeywon 2518]

I have a sad 

[Parliament 14128]

29 minutes ago, Clintonaldo said:

The NCAA is aware that Michigan may have given out info against potential opponents. The Tennessee South Carolina game is on their radar. 

They gave SC intel on UT hoping to take UT out (so they'll be replaced by a weaker opponent?)  I'm not disagreeing; just trying to learn more.

And I hope they're looking at anything UGA mighta got on us before the Peach Bowl.  If they're giving intel to other teams it moves this from conspiracy to collusion.

[Deej 76542]

1 hour ago, Levi said:

Sorry if this has already been discussed in depth, I’ve really only been scanning the thread for large upvotes or links. But, I find the lone wolf theory to be hilarious because it makes absolutely no sense. Any Michigan coach with an IQ above room temperature would look around and simply asks the guy how he’s so good at stealing the signs. He can’t be at multiple places at one time, the opponents signs are not on film, and it’s impossible to get anything from watching the games on tv. This is why it looks so bad on the Michigan coaching side of things because they either completely ignored what he was doing or aided in the elaborate scheme. Obviously it is the latter but which ever version you choose, the coaches were complicit in the scheme. You also cannot equate it to the bag game in the sense of coaches “turning a blind eye.” Tennessee can hand out as many McDonald’s bags full of cash but they still have to coach and put those players in positions to win on game day. Michigan was actively hurting the integrity of the game day experience to their own unfair advantage. 

Lone wolf. 

So some random fan just happened to pass this all on to the players without the coaches knowing about it. 

 

[ChiTownDoc 21098]

KU hoops was basically complete lack of institutional control and they barely got slapped on the wrist.  UM will be fine.  Hope I’m wrong   

Maybe they give Baylor the death penalty and alls well that ends well.  
 

Edited October 26, 2023 by ChiTownDoc

[Parliament 14128]

Again. “Lone wolf” still gets Harbaugh fired.  He is responsible for all the things happening under his watch.

 

[Hmbre97 6297]

15 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

KU hoops was basically complete lack of institutional control and they barely got slapped on the wrist.  UM will be fine.  Hope I’m wrong   

Maybe they give Baylor the death penalty and alls well that ends well.  
 

I think the difference here is what Michigan has done has harmed their fellow conference mates and now they're all pissed off. It also sounds like the conference can dole out their own punishment outside of what the NCAA is doing. I think that's where the hammer drop will come from. 

[4th&Five 41457]

11 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

I think the difference here is what Michigan has done has harmed their fellow conference mates and now they're all pissed off. It also sounds like the conference can dole out their own punishment outside of what the NCAA is doing. I think that's where the hammer drop will come from. 

They’re also the best chance from the B10 to win the CFP. 

[The_Great_Hornsby 3319]

13 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

I think the difference here is what Michigan has done has harmed their fellow conference mates and now they're all pissed off. It also sounds like the conference can dole out their own punishment outside of what the NCAA is doing. I think that's where the hammer drop will come from. 

Yeah I am sure the Big 10 is really gonna lower the hammer when undefeated Michigan and undefeated Ohio State are on a collision course. /s

[Laxtonto 11927]

59 minutes ago, Clintonaldo said:

The NCAA is aware that Michigan may have given out info against potential opponents. The Tennessee South Carolina game is on their radar. 

 

28 minutes ago, Parliament said:

They gave SC intel on UT hoping to take UT out (so they'll be replaced by a weaker opponent?)  I'm not disagreeing; just trying to learn more.

And I hope they're looking at anything UGA mighta got on us before the Peach Bowl.  If they're giving intel to other teams it moves this from conspiracy to collusion.

 

 

If Michigan was giving signals to other select teams, either to make a favorable potential matchup in the playoffs or even to use as a recruiting advantage, I have no clue how the Big 10 and the NCAA wont go scorched earth on the program.

And it is not one of these areas about lets not blame kids that don't know because their entire sideline was in on it... I don't even know what would be an acceptable penalty.

And here is another point to consider now that they may potentially gave out info to help trip up future opponents... What happens if they gave information to other B10 opponents in an attempt to keep OSU out of the CFP

[Parliament 14128]

Even without the advantage of stolen signs?  A week ago they had a 53% chance of beating Ohio State.  Without our playbook they’re a darn good team but you can rationally say Ohio State is better.

Regarding the B1G commissioner letting them play.  He reports to all 14 AD’s and I presume they all get one vote.  Eleven of them have turned evidence over to the NCAA.  If it comes down to a vote, you’d think at least 8 out of would also vote against them.  If it was “win at all cost,” they woulda never spoken up.

ETA

Replying to Hornsby.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Parliament

[Laxtonto 11927]

 

[CastHorn 793]

The NCAAs not going to do shit. Joe Brady was pretty vocal about Brent Venables on his way out of LSU, nothing ever came of it. Brent has a reputation of it. Hell, his defenders were flat footed in the Cotton Bowl sitting on routes in the first half a couple weeks ago.

[Hmbre97 6297]

when I say hammer drop from the conference, I'm referring to them keeping Michigan out of their conf championship game and killing their chances of being included in the CFP.

 

Let's pretend that Texas and OU played later in the season and it came out that Texas was cheating and winning games vs conference opponents with a leg up via sign stealing in the way MI is. You really think the Big XII would give a fuck about propping up Texas when they have another team with the same record and just as good a chance to reach the CFP in OU? Fuck no. You don't think the other AD's would love to have the chance to bring down one of the dominate teams in their conference?

Edited October 26, 2023 by Hmbre97

[TheRealRonWeaver? 1258]

when I say hammer drop from the conference, I'm referring to them keeping Michigan out of their conf championship game and killing their chances of being included in the CFP.
 
Let's pretend that Texas and OU played later in the season and it came out that Texas was cheating and winning games vs conference opponents with a leg up via sign stealing in the way MI is. You really think the Big XII would give a fuck about propping up Texas when they have another team with the same record and just as good a chance to reach the CFP in OU? Fuck no. You don't think the other AD's would love to have the chance to bring down one of the dominate teams in their conference?

[Vermin 3042]

48 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

when I say hammer drop from the conference, I'm referring to them keeping Michigan out of their conf championship game and killing their chances of being included in the CFP.

 

Let's pretend that Texas and OU played later in the season and it came out that Texas was cheating and winning games vs conference opponents with a leg up via sign stealing in the way MI is. You really think the Big XII would give a fuck about propping up Texas when they have another team with the same record and just as good a chance to reach the CFP in OU? Fuck no. You don't think the other AD's would love to have the chance to bring down one of the dominate teams in their conference?

Texas is leaving so the Big 12 would fuck us over. Michigan is a premiere B1G brand so they will protect them at all costs.

Since the BCS era in 1998, The Big Ten only has 2 titles and both from Ohio State They would do/overlook anything to get another.

[UTEE97 3429]

17 minutes ago, Vermin said:

Texas is leaving so the Big 12 would fuck us over. Michigan is a premiere B1G brand so they will protect them at all costs.

Since the BCS era in 1998, The Big Ten only has 2 titles and both from Ohio State They would do/overlook anything to get another.

The commissioner can't protect a bad apple when that would anger every other member of the conference. They will instead choose to back the buckeyes. I can't imagaine any scenario where UM gets a pass when their actions adversely affected everyone else in the conference. 

[Vermin 3042]

4 minutes ago, UTEE97 said:

The commissioner can't protect a bad apple when that would anger every other member of the conference. They will instead choose to back the buckeyes. I can't imagaine any scenario where UM gets a pass when their actions adversely affected everyone else in the conference. 

No one gives a fuck what Purdue thinks.

What the fuck does "back the Buckeyes" mean? They will play each other and the winner will get to go to the playoff.

[MrBig 5283]

Reporter: What do you say to everyone about all the spotlight on Michigan regarding the sign stealing allegations?

Harbaugh: All my coaching experience has told me that no one’s gonna drag you up to get into the light where you belong. So where do we belong? That’s up to the NCAA to decide.

[NWBuck 8547]

It's my understanding that teams in the B1G are really looking to expand their repertoire of ways to signal in the play calls. 

[statsman 5421]

-there is a disconnect between the image and culture that Michigan has built over a century, and the brazen way Harbaugh has leaned into flagrant rules breaking. I don’t think the administration will be as unified in protecting him as a the Buckeyes’ or Sooners’ would be. 

 
- the first test of that theory will be in how cooperative Michigan is with investigations 
 
- rules are as strong as their enforceability. If you had a “Rain Man” on the sidelines, watching the game in real time and deciphering the signals (what Stoops and Venables claimed to do), that’s not a violation. Sending a scout to do that, in advance, is a violation, but how would it be prevented? Video-ing sidelines is the next iteration. This is absolutely an example of a slippery slope,  and the reaction will be to either one up with firmer rules and stiffer penalties, or dropping the rule altogether. 
 
- allegations that Michigan hacked into the Buckeyes are very serious. That’s illegal as well as against the rules. 
 
- this whole signaling business began almost 20 years ago, as coaches sought ways to take decisions out of the hands of extremely talented, but raw, quarterbacks. Before then, the game requires QBs to really learn an offense, different defenses, reads, and what to do. Signaling in the calls made the game a lot more exciting, but created this opportunity for stealing signs. No matter what punishment Michigan gets, I expect teams to get more secure with signals, or put more decisions on the players, or both. 

[Pam Cummings 9567]

8 hours ago, CastHorn said:

The NCAAs not going to do shit. Joe Brady was pretty vocal about Brent Venables on his way out of LSU, nothing ever came of it. Brent has a reputation of it. Hell, his defenders were flat footed in the Cotton Bowl sitting on routes in the first half a couple weeks ago.

It would be awesome if this leads to head sets, making that dude useless.

[BurntOrange&White 39613]

8 hours ago, Parliament said:

Even without the advantage of stolen signs?  A week ago they had a 53% chance of beating Ohio State.  Without our playbook they’re a darn good team but you can rationally say Ohio State is better.

Regarding the B1G commissioner letting them play.  He reports to all 14 AD’s and I presume they all get one vote.  Eleven of them have turned evidence over to the NCAA.  If it comes down to a vote, you’d think at least 8 out of would also vote against them.  If it was “win at all cost,” they woulda never spoken up.

ETA

Replying to Hornsby.

12 now allegedly

[BurntOrange&White 39613]

7 hours ago, Vermin said:

No one gives a fuck what Purdue thinks.

What the fuck does "back the Buckeyes" mean? They will play each other and the winner will get to go to the playoff.

Bro, you obviously don't keep up with the amount of Big 10 teams that have come forward, so far it is 12 of 14 teams, which is all but Michigan and one other team in the conference. 

[Gaffords 755]

8 hours ago, CastHorn said:

The NCAAs not going to do shit. Joe Brady was pretty vocal about Brent Venables on his way out of LSU, nothing ever came of it. Brent has a reputation of it. Hell, his defenders were flat footed in the Cotton Bowl sitting on routes in the first half a couple weeks ago.

The University is going out of their way to cooporate while Harbaugh is playing dumb...  The University wants him gone and he's ready to bail back to the NFL.  So there might be more than just recruiting during the COVID shutdown and sign stealing.   The NCAA is fast tracking this one so they can drop the hammer this season before he bails.   

This one might leave a mark on Michigan.

[Francisco 2.0 32318]

https://theathletic.com/4999536/2023/10/26/college-football-sign-stealing-rules-strategies/

 

Quote

The video evidence of Michigan’s signal stealing efforts was shared nonstop on Tuesday, surpassing 17 million views within 36 hours.

The footage, posted by Ohio TV reporter Adam King, shows Michigan analyst Connor Stalions standing next to defensive coordinator Jesse Minter before a play and staring down Ohio State’s sideline to see a signal. Once he spotted it, Stalions responded with his own signal to help the Wolverines’ defense during the opening drive of last year’s game.

 

Quote

The strong impression made on many: Gotcha! Here was the damning proof of Michigan’s in-game cheating.

A college football signal stealer watched the video on Tuesday, too. He didn’t get it.

Why are people freaking out about this clip?

 

Quote

The ongoing Michigan ordeal is being watched with fascination by coaches and staffers in the industry who’ve been stealing signals for years. Although the practice is legal and has been well-documented in the past, Stalions breaking NCAA rules by purchasing tickets to games and allegedly sending people to film future opponents has brought intense new attention.

This coach works at a Power 5 program that does not have Michigan on its schedule this season. In return for participating in this story, he requested no other identifying information be shared; he’s not trying to give up strategies that opponents could copy.

 

Spoiler

As he’s watched this story unfold over the past week, he’s seeing lots of misperceptions about the unique art of signal stealing and what is and isn’t allowed. If the allegations are true, Stalions crossing the line gives all signal stealers a bad name and makes it harder for them to do what they do best. But this coach is also surprised more than anything: How is it that people never noticed what they’re up to on Saturdays?

“The clip circulating, I’m like, shoot, that looks like every sideline I’ve been across in America,” he said. “I just think people don’t pay attention to it.”

While there are some secrets he must keep to himself, the staffer was granted anonymity in order to speak as freely as possible to The Athletic about how this game within the game actually works. Here are 10 lessons learned from a highly effective signal stealer.

1. It’s not illegal
Let’s start with the Ohio State video. To the uninitiated, it looks bad. But Michigan’s coaches were not breaking the rules. Our signal stealer thinks he knows exactly what happened on the play.

Michigan holds up a white sign with a Nike swoosh. That tells the defense to not jump offsides on the hard count because Ohio State is about to check to the sideline. The sign goes down. C.J. Stroud and the Buckeyes offense look to their sideline for a call. Michigan’s staff reads it and points to the sky. A new sign with an image of Atlanta Hawks guard Trae Young goes up.

“That’s probably their pass board when they think a pass is coming,” the signal stealer said. “By the way, everybody’s pointing to the sky now. That’s their sign for pass, another hand signal to alert people.

“If I’m at Ohio State, I see that right away and immediately I’m saying, ‘Hey, we’ve got to go to wristbands right now. They know it. I don’t know how they know it, but they know it.’”

How the now-suspended Stalions gathered that intel is the subject of the NCAA’s investigation. That’s the important distinction to remember. There’s nothing impermissible about Michigan utilizing the intel for pre-snap decisions and in-game adjustments.

What would be damning? Video evidence of someone filming a team’s sideline on their phone while sitting in a seat paid for by Stalions.

“That would get people in the industry to go, ‘Oh, they’re f—ed,’” he said.

 

2. Your favorite team is probably doing it, too
The lack of awareness about this practice is what’s baffling to our signal stealer, especially given some of the extreme reactions he’s seen over the past week. Again, there’s a clear difference between what Michigan is alleged to have illegally done and what other coaching staffs traditionally do to steal signals. But those who are offended by signal stealing should pay a little attention to their own sideline.

“The average fans who are crying, ‘Oh my gosh, look at them cheat!’ Well, wait ‘til you see your team do it,” he said. “Because I promise you they’re gonna do it this Saturday.”

During a game, it’s relatively easy to spot the staffer who has that particular set of skills if you’re looking for them. Some might be sitting up in the coaches’ box taking notes, but most are standing close to the action. It’s no secret what they’re trying to do.

For that reason, this coach is not too interested in some of the outrage coming from Big Ten coaches. He fully agrees that off-campus signal scouting is wrong. But he doesn’t want to hear rival coaches deriding standard signal stealing as improper or an integrity issue.

“They all do it to each other,” he said. “That’s what’s so silly to me about the whole thing.”

 

3. All you need is tape
The signal stealer has worked for a head coach who suspected rival schools might send people to his open practices or spring games to film signals. That type of paranoia is common. He does not believe Michigan’s alleged scheme is commonplace, calling it “next-level s—” that crosses the line.

“I hope I’m not naïve in thinking he’s the only one to do it,” he said. “I don’t know.”

In his experience, there’s no need to cross that line. If you spend enough time studying your opponents with a combination of TV broadcast tape and game tape, you’ll find patterns. The process of carefully watching signalers and logging everything he sees is time- and labor-intensive. It’s not easy to watch tape without sound and crack these codes. But it does tend to pay off.

Stalions has been described as a “savant” and wrote on his since-deleted LinkedIn page that he employed “Marine Corps philosophies and tactics” in his role. The signal stealer insists it’s not that difficult for others to pick up this skill.

“I promise you, within a day, I could take the average fan and watch three TV copies with them and they’ll know signals by the end of it,” he said. “We’re trying to signal in a play that a college kid has to comprehend. This isn’t rocket science. The signals are not ridiculously tough to figure out.”

 

4. Results not guaranteed
Let’s say you’re a signal stealer and you’ve put in the time and effort to decode your next opponent’s signals. You go into Saturday believing you know exactly what to expect. The game kicks off. You begin spying their sideline. You instantly realize you’ve never seen these signals before. They’re brand new.

For an experienced signal stealer, few things are more irritating.

“At the end of the day, if they get to your game and they change it all, then that was a whole waste of time,” he said.

When he watches tape, he’s always hoping to see repeated patterns of signals and plays over multiple games. But some games might require 10 signals, and others might only require five. He has to track week-to-week differences. Is it the same guy every game? Do they change it up for quarters or halves?

Another required talent for the role of signal stealer is the ability to see a signal live one time, instantly remember it and make a call. If you know Ohio State just signaled for a pass, that’s great. You still need to execute a simple signal that effectively conveys the intel to the defense as fast as possible.

Pointing to the sky and holding up a Trae Young sign does not give the secondary any tells on where Stroud is throwing the ball. All it does is alert the pass rushers to get after him. The viral clip doesn’t show what happened after the snap: Stroud threw a 4-yard touchdown pass to Emeka Egbuka to put Ohio State up 7-0.

 

5. Don’t get got
A few years ago, the signal stealer’s team suffered a blowout loss in a conference game. What went wrong? They faced a team with a defensive assistant who’s an excellent signal stealer.

“They knew every single play,” he said.

Whether that’s actually true is always tough to say, but it sure felt like it. Our coach calls this “getting got.” The best indication that you’re getting got? When players come off the field and tell coaches that the opponent is calling out where the runs are going or identifying passes. An especially easy tell is when defenses know the signal for screen passes and easily stop them.

After that loss, the signal stealer spent a lot of time in the offseason studying what his counterpart was doing on the sideline in every game. The next time they played, his team used a different system for play calling. If they did signal in a play, they never used the same signal twice. They won the rematch.

 

6. If you get got, you better change
It’s really that simple. If a coaching staff is invested in stealing signs, it stands to reason they should also have a plan to prevent sign stealing. If they don’t want to get got, they should be open to making weekly changes. In the previous example, the signal stealer’s team opted to go to a wristband system for play calling.

“Teams that use wristbands don’t have anything to worry about,” he said.

There are more subtle ways to obfuscate and avoid asking players to learn new signals, like changing the order, pattern and delivery of the sideline signalers or introducing different dummy signals. Sharp signal stealers can still figure out how to crack the new codes, but it takes time and repetition to do that live.

“As a signal stealing person myself, if you don’t want me to get all your stuff off TV copy, change your signals,” he said. “If you’re not gonna change your signals, we’re gonna have your signals. Because I’ll put in the work to make sure we get your signals.”

 

7. If you don’t change, that’s on you
The signal stealer isn’t going to name names, but there are certain coaches he’s faced who did not change their signals even after he got them. He jokes that he can’t help but take that personally.

“It’s crazy that you would hurt your team that way,” he argues.

It sounds illogical that a head coach wouldn’t take signal stealing seriously and change their calls, but in his experience, some are brazen enough to believe they don’t need to change. When asked about Michigan on Tuesday, Colorado coach Deion Sanders told reporters he didn’t fully buy into the idea that sign stealing impacts the outcome of physical football games.

“You can have someone’s whole game plan. They could mail it to you. You’ve still got to stop it,” Sanders said.

The signal stealer’s response to that take?

“I hope we play Colorado,” he said. “Don’t ever change your signals or your signaler and let’s see if it’s just players beat players.”

Another factor to keep in mind: The coaching business is extremely gossipy. The signal stealer’s coaching staff heard the rumors about Michigan filming signals well before the initial Yahoo Sports story emerged. They don’t play Michigan. It doesn’t affect them. They still knew. If a Big Ten staff has any awareness of Michigan’s signal stealing practices and didn’t adjust accordingly, that’s inexcusable.

“To me, the burden is on these teams that knew about it and have to play them to change their stuff, too,” he said. “It’s on you to change your signals.”

 

8. Opponents know if you’re good at it
This brings us to our next lesson: You don’t want a reputation for being great at signal stealing. It’s not helpful. If your foes know that, they’ll make your task tougher. The good ones need to be careful.

Signal stealers study enough tape to know who the other signal stealers are. They see things and they definitely hear things about other programs’ sign-stealing operations. It took almost no time for Stalions to be publicly identified as Michigan’s “mastermind.”

Beyond the obvious issues Jim Harbaugh and his program are currently facing, our signal stealer raises another: No matter how this plays out, Michigan is going to have a very tough time stealing signals in the rest of its games this season.

The teams that still have to face the Wolverines should be making pregame changes to their signals. Michigan State tried an even safer approach against Michigan on Saturday: Their quarterback went to the sideline for the play call and delivered it in a huddle.

“We’ll play teams that will change up day-of from everything they’ve done that season,” the signal stealer said. “I guess you sort of take it as a compliment, but at the same time, that really sucks after all the work I put in.”

 

9. If done right, it does change games
The NCAA investigating Michigan’s signal-stealing operation prompts a question that may be impossible to answer: How many outcomes were impacted? How many losses became wins thanks to impermissibly obtained intel?

“It’s a really hard question,” the sign stealer said.

Because it’s truly incalculable. These investigations will focus on the extent to which Stalions or others arranged off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents and whether Harbaugh authorized or knew about the scheme. Beyond that, there’s no easy way to prove how those stolen signals changed Michigan’s games beyond anecdotal evidence from rival coaches.

Here’s how the signal stealer sees it: You can legally get all of this off tape. If you have good enough players and good enough information, you can do damage to the teams that don’t change signals. He agrees Michigan should be punished if the allegations are true. But it’s difficult for him to assess how significant Michigan’s advantage would’ve been.

“I guess the best way to say it is: sign stealing, if you have the material, can be very, very effective and win you a lot of games,” the coach said. “If you go to these (opponents’) games and do it, yeah, that’s obviously gonna have much more of an impact, because you’ll have more tape to go off. But who’s to say these teams that they went and got didn’t change the signals by that time?”

 

10. Rule changes? No thanks
One understandable reaction to the Michigan allegations is renewed interest in permitting in-game, coach-to-player communication technology.

The NFL has had it since 1994. The NCAA permitted electronic communication devices in college baseball in 2021. And later this year, it’s coming to college football. The Athletic reported on Monday that a trial run has been approved for non-College Football Playoff bowl games, an experiment that was already in the works prior to the Michigan revelations.

If a college football staff is gifted at stealing signals, they’re certainly not going to advocate for advancements that cost them their hard-earned edge going into games.

“The stuff Michigan was allegedly doing was wrong. But the rest of it? Shoot, everybody does that,” the signal stealer said. “So you’re gonna make everybody change how they do it?”

For these staffers, it’s not that they’re going to lose their jobs. They all perform other coaching or recruiting duties under their official job titles and capacities. Stealing signals is just their in-season side hustle. But getting good at it does make them more valuable.

Our signal stealer isn’t worried. He’s been doing this long enough to know how to adapt. The good ones will find a way to crack whatever comes next. He predicts that even if technology is introduced next season, offenses that want to go fast tempo will still have to use hand signals at some point.

And when they do, he’ll already know them.

 

 

[TexEx15 17456]

 

[Juicy 722]

36 minutes ago, Gaffords said:

The University is going out of their way to cooporate while Harbaugh is playing dumb...  The University wants him gone and he's ready to bail back to the NFL.  So there might be more than just recruiting during the COVID shutdown and sign stealing.   The NCAA is fast tracking this one so they can drop the hammer this season before he bails.   

This one might leave a mark on Michigan.

There is so much that is wrong about this. No one at the university wants harbaugh gone. He is great for michigan. As far as the fast tracking.... Michigan has 90 days to respond to any notice from the ncaa, which means they do not even have to respond to the complaint until after the playoff is over. 

One guy who works for Eastern Michigan is the person who hates Harbaugh, he graduated from Michigan. Harbaugh is always a net positive for Michigan as long as he is there. He bought himself a ton of good faith by taking the pay cut, and then donating all of his bonuses to staffers impacted by covid. He will be at Michigan for as long as he wants to be. 

[Juicy 722]

26 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

https://theathletic.com/4999536/2023/10/26/college-football-sign-stealing-rules-strategies/

 

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

As he’s watched this story unfold over the past week, he’s seeing lots of misperceptions about the unique art of signal stealing and what is and isn’t allowed. If the allegations are true, Stalions crossing the line gives all signal stealers a bad name and makes it harder for them to do what they do best. But this coach is also surprised more than anything: How is it that people never noticed what they’re up to on Saturdays?

“The clip circulating, I’m like, shoot, that looks like every sideline I’ve been across in America,” he said. “I just think people don’t pay attention to it.”

While there are some secrets he must keep to himself, the staffer was granted anonymity in order to speak as freely as possible to The Athletic about how this game within the game actually works. Here are 10 lessons learned from a highly effective signal stealer.

1. It’s not illegal
Let’s start with the Ohio State video. To the uninitiated, it looks bad. But Michigan’s coaches were not breaking the rules. Our signal stealer thinks he knows exactly what happened on the play.

Michigan holds up a white sign with a Nike swoosh. That tells the defense to not jump offsides on the hard count because Ohio State is about to check to the sideline. The sign goes down. C.J. Stroud and the Buckeyes offense look to their sideline for a call. Michigan’s staff reads it and points to the sky. A new sign with an image of Atlanta Hawks guard Trae Young goes up.

“That’s probably their pass board when they think a pass is coming,” the signal stealer said. “By the way, everybody’s pointing to the sky now. That’s their sign for pass, another hand signal to alert people.

“If I’m at Ohio State, I see that right away and immediately I’m saying, ‘Hey, we’ve got to go to wristbands right now. They know it. I don’t know how they know it, but they know it.’”

How the now-suspended Stalions gathered that intel is the subject of the NCAA’s investigation. That’s the important distinction to remember. There’s nothing impermissible about Michigan utilizing the intel for pre-snap decisions and in-game adjustments.

What would be damning? Video evidence of someone filming a team’s sideline on their phone while sitting in a seat paid for by Stalions.

“That would get people in the industry to go, ‘Oh, they’re f—ed,’” he said.

 

2. Your favorite team is probably doing it, too
The lack of awareness about this practice is what’s baffling to our signal stealer, especially given some of the extreme reactions he’s seen over the past week. Again, there’s a clear difference between what Michigan is alleged to have illegally done and what other coaching staffs traditionally do to steal signals. But those who are offended by signal stealing should pay a little attention to their own sideline.

“The average fans who are crying, ‘Oh my gosh, look at them cheat!’ Well, wait ‘til you see your team do it,” he said. “Because I promise you they’re gonna do it this Saturday.”

During a game, it’s relatively easy to spot the staffer who has that particular set of skills if you’re looking for them. Some might be sitting up in the coaches’ box taking notes, but most are standing close to the action. It’s no secret what they’re trying to do.

For that reason, this coach is not too interested in some of the outrage coming from Big Ten coaches. He fully agrees that off-campus signal scouting is wrong. But he doesn’t want to hear rival coaches deriding standard signal stealing as improper or an integrity issue.

“They all do it to each other,” he said. “That’s what’s so silly to me about the whole thing.”

 

3. All you need is tape
The signal stealer has worked for a head coach who suspected rival schools might send people to his open practices or spring games to film signals. That type of paranoia is common. He does not believe Michigan’s alleged scheme is commonplace, calling it “next-level s—” that crosses the line.

“I hope I’m not naïve in thinking he’s the only one to do it,” he said. “I don’t know.”

In his experience, there’s no need to cross that line. If you spend enough time studying your opponents with a combination of TV broadcast tape and game tape, you’ll find patterns. The process of carefully watching signalers and logging everything he sees is time- and labor-intensive. It’s not easy to watch tape without sound and crack these codes. But it does tend to pay off.

Stalions has been described as a “savant” and wrote on his since-deleted LinkedIn page that he employed “Marine Corps philosophies and tactics” in his role. The signal stealer insists it’s not that difficult for others to pick up this skill.

“I promise you, within a day, I could take the average fan and watch three TV copies with them and they’ll know signals by the end of it,” he said. “We’re trying to signal in a play that a college kid has to comprehend. This isn’t rocket science. The signals are not ridiculously tough to figure out.”

 

4. Results not guaranteed
Let’s say you’re a signal stealer and you’ve put in the time and effort to decode your next opponent’s signals. You go into Saturday believing you know exactly what to expect. The game kicks off. You begin spying their sideline. You instantly realize you’ve never seen these signals before. They’re brand new.

For an experienced signal stealer, few things are more irritating.

“At the end of the day, if they get to your game and they change it all, then that was a whole waste of time,” he said.

When he watches tape, he’s always hoping to see repeated patterns of signals and plays over multiple games. But some games might require 10 signals, and others might only require five. He has to track week-to-week differences. Is it the same guy every game? Do they change it up for quarters or halves?

Another required talent for the role of signal stealer is the ability to see a signal live one time, instantly remember it and make a call. If you know Ohio State just signaled for a pass, that’s great. You still need to execute a simple signal that effectively conveys the intel to the defense as fast as possible.

Pointing to the sky and holding up a Trae Young sign does not give the secondary any tells on where Stroud is throwing the ball. All it does is alert the pass rushers to get after him. The viral clip doesn’t show what happened after the snap: Stroud threw a 4-yard touchdown pass to Emeka Egbuka to put Ohio State up 7-0.

 

5. Don’t get got
A few years ago, the signal stealer’s team suffered a blowout loss in a conference game. What went wrong? They faced a team with a defensive assistant who’s an excellent signal stealer.

“They knew every single play,” he said.

Whether that’s actually true is always tough to say, but it sure felt like it. Our coach calls this “getting got.” The best indication that you’re getting got? When players come off the field and tell coaches that the opponent is calling out where the runs are going or identifying passes. An especially easy tell is when defenses know the signal for screen passes and easily stop them.

After that loss, the signal stealer spent a lot of time in the offseason studying what his counterpart was doing on the sideline in every game. The next time they played, his team used a different system for play calling. If they did signal in a play, they never used the same signal twice. They won the rematch.

 

6. If you get got, you better change
It’s really that simple. If a coaching staff is invested in stealing signs, it stands to reason they should also have a plan to prevent sign stealing. If they don’t want to get got, they should be open to making weekly changes. In the previous example, the signal stealer’s team opted to go to a wristband system for play calling.

“Teams that use wristbands don’t have anything to worry about,” he said.

There are more subtle ways to obfuscate and avoid asking players to learn new signals, like changing the order, pattern and delivery of the sideline signalers or introducing different dummy signals. Sharp signal stealers can still figure out how to crack the new codes, but it takes time and repetition to do that live.

“As a signal stealing person myself, if you don’t want me to get all your stuff off TV copy, change your signals,” he said. “If you’re not gonna change your signals, we’re gonna have your signals. Because I’ll put in the work to make sure we get your signals.”

 

7. If you don’t change, that’s on you
The signal stealer isn’t going to name names, but there are certain coaches he’s faced who did not change their signals even after he got them. He jokes that he can’t help but take that personally.

“It’s crazy that you would hurt your team that way,” he argues.

It sounds illogical that a head coach wouldn’t take signal stealing seriously and change their calls, but in his experience, some are brazen enough to believe they don’t need to change. When asked about Michigan on Tuesday, Colorado coach Deion Sanders told reporters he didn’t fully buy into the idea that sign stealing impacts the outcome of physical football games.

“You can have someone’s whole game plan. They could mail it to you. You’ve still got to stop it,” Sanders said.

The signal stealer’s response to that take?

“I hope we play Colorado,” he said. “Don’t ever change your signals or your signaler and let’s see if it’s just players beat players.”

Another factor to keep in mind: The coaching business is extremely gossipy. The signal stealer’s coaching staff heard the rumors about Michigan filming signals well before the initial Yahoo Sports story emerged. They don’t play Michigan. It doesn’t affect them. They still knew. If a Big Ten staff has any awareness of Michigan’s signal stealing practices and didn’t adjust accordingly, that’s inexcusable.

“To me, the burden is on these teams that knew about it and have to play them to change their stuff, too,” he said. “It’s on you to change your signals.”

 

8. Opponents know if you’re good at it
This brings us to our next lesson: You don’t want a reputation for being great at signal stealing. It’s not helpful. If your foes know that, they’ll make your task tougher. The good ones need to be careful.

Signal stealers study enough tape to know who the other signal stealers are. They see things and they definitely hear things about other programs’ sign-stealing operations. It took almost no time for Stalions to be publicly identified as Michigan’s “mastermind.”

Beyond the obvious issues Jim Harbaugh and his program are currently facing, our signal stealer raises another: No matter how this plays out, Michigan is going to have a very tough time stealing signals in the rest of its games this season.

The teams that still have to face the Wolverines should be making pregame changes to their signals. Michigan State tried an even safer approach against Michigan on Saturday: Their quarterback went to the sideline for the play call and delivered it in a huddle.

“We’ll play teams that will change up day-of from everything they’ve done that season,” the signal stealer said. “I guess you sort of take it as a compliment, but at the same time, that really sucks after all the work I put in.”

 

9. If done right, it does change games
The NCAA investigating Michigan’s signal-stealing operation prompts a question that may be impossible to answer: How many outcomes were impacted? How many losses became wins thanks to impermissibly obtained intel?

“It’s a really hard question,” the sign stealer said.

Because it’s truly incalculable. These investigations will focus on the extent to which Stalions or others arranged off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents and whether Harbaugh authorized or knew about the scheme. Beyond that, there’s no easy way to prove how those stolen signals changed Michigan’s games beyond anecdotal evidence from rival coaches.

Here’s how the signal stealer sees it: You can legally get all of this off tape. If you have good enough players and good enough information, you can do damage to the teams that don’t change signals. He agrees Michigan should be punished if the allegations are true. But it’s difficult for him to assess how significant Michigan’s advantage would’ve been.

“I guess the best way to say it is: sign stealing, if you have the material, can be very, very effective and win you a lot of games,” the coach said. “If you go to these (opponents’) games and do it, yeah, that’s obviously gonna have much more of an impact, because you’ll have more tape to go off. But who’s to say these teams that they went and got didn’t change the signals by that time?”

 

10. Rule changes? No thanks
One understandable reaction to the Michigan allegations is renewed interest in permitting in-game, coach-to-player communication technology.

The NFL has had it since 1994. The NCAA permitted electronic communication devices in college baseball in 2021. And later this year, it’s coming to college football. The Athletic reported on Monday that a trial run has been approved for non-College Football Playoff bowl games, an experiment that was already in the works prior to the Michigan revelations.

If a college football staff is gifted at stealing signals, they’re certainly not going to advocate for advancements that cost them their hard-earned edge going into games.

“The stuff Michigan was allegedly doing was wrong. But the rest of it? Shoot, everybody does that,” the signal stealer said. “So you’re gonna make everybody change how they do it?”

For these staffers, it’s not that they’re going to lose their jobs. They all perform other coaching or recruiting duties under their official job titles and capacities. Stealing signals is just their in-season side hustle. But getting good at it does make them more valuable.

Our signal stealer isn’t worried. He’s been doing this long enough to know how to adapt. The good ones will find a way to crack whatever comes next. He predicts that even if technology is introduced next season, offenses that want to go fast tempo will still have to use hand signals at some point.

And when they do, he’ll already know them.

 

 

The crazy part about the video that everyone is up in arms about, is..... that it resulted in a TD. Michigan signaled pass, ohio state still scored a TD after the entire defense knew what was coming. 

[Gene Parmesan 3993]

10 hours ago, Parliament said:

Again. “Lone wolf” still gets Harbaugh fired.  He is responsible for all the things happening under his watch.

 

I'm not paying that close attention to the story, but why does that get him fired?  I get that it gives UM an out to fire him with cause if they wanted, but why would they want him gone?

[Juicy 722]

Just now, Gene Parmesan said:

I'm not paying that close attention to the story, but why does that get him fired?  I get that it gives UM an out to fire him with cause if they wanted, but why would they want him gone?

They don't. Also if Bill Self is still coaching there is no chance this gets harbaugh fired. May he leave because he is sick of the bullshit? Maybe, but I think he kind of likes it, he is a weird dude

[Kwix 2186]

3 minutes ago, Juicy said:

The crazy part about the video that everyone is up in arms about, is..... that it resulted in a TD. Michigan signaled pass, ohio state still scored a TD after the entire defense knew what was coming. 

So it's OK to cheat if your opponent manages some level of success at any point in the game? 

[Juicy 722]

Just now, Kwix said:

So it's OK to cheat if your opponent manages some level of success at any point in the game? 

Not what I am saying at all, just saying that part is cleverly left out of the clip that is the "smoking gun" If you read the athletic article it pretty much sums up where I am at with this. 

Its a bad look for Michigan, but at the end of the day aside from Stalions getting canned and probably a fine, there isn't going to be anything else that comes of this. 

Michigan can't comment on it or make a defense in public, so literally all of the "evidence" that has come out has a drastic slant that makes this look a lot worse than it is. 

I get it Harbaugh is the devil, cheating scumbag, still don't care, go win the big ten again and don't shit your pants in the playoffs this time. 

[BurntOrange&White 39613]

I like how as soon as Michigan went the character assassination route to distance themselves the WaPo article came out proving it wasn't a rogue guy.

[gatormarc 904]

Just now, BurntOrange&White said:

I like how as soon as Michigan went the character assassination route to distance themselves the WaPo article came out proving it wasn't a rogue guy.

The writing on this show is sooooo good.

[VABuckeye 2472]

11 hours ago, Clintonaldo said:

The NCAA is aware that Michigan may have given out info against potential opponents. The Tennessee South Carolina game is on their radar. 

If true that is another level of cheating altogether.  That is death penalty shit.

[gatormarc 904]

It is funny as hell that South Carolina went from getting curb stomped by Florida to back-to-back wins over playoff contenders.

11/12/22 @ (5-4) Florida 6-38
11/19/22 vs #5 (9-1) Tennessee 63-38
11/26/22 @ #8 (10-1) Clemson 31-30
 

[Laxtonto 11927]

11 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

If true that is another level of cheating altogether.  That is death penalty shit.

This is the problem with this type of slippery slope...

1st its we are going to tape these certain conference opponents from the stands because we can get most of this from a full season's worth of tv broadcasts (now mind you this avoids what happens if you play someone week 4)

Then its, we are going to set up a network to tape these games against all of our conference teams on our schedule. We already do this for certain opponents so now we are just being thorough

Then its lets go ahead and prescout some of the potential CFP games to make sure we have the information ready in case we play them

To, we have this data on all of these CFP potential opponents and we just don't match up well with team X, lets see if we can give this info to team X's next opponent so if they lose, we dont have to face them...

To, we are recruiting against Team X for this kid and wouldnt it be great if they lost this week....

Edited October 26, 2023 by Laxtonto

[The Dog 43792]

[statsman 5421]

In 2009, when Venables went to Tuscaloosa to brief Bama on Texas’ tendencies, did he also share signal info? Did Texas signal plays back then?

[closetojumping 62213]

14 hours ago, VABuckeye said:

Where the fuck are you coming up with this bullshit.  If it’s an attempt at humor it’s not funny, even by Surly standards. 

 

14 hours ago, Parliament said:

Surly thinks Coach Day looks like a pedo.  I don't cohort with pedo's so I can't agree/disagree.  I'll just defer to the pedophile experts here and I think you should as well.  All in good fun.

@SydneyCarton

[Longhornlove 4779]

14 hours ago, VABuckeye said:

Where the fuck are you coming up with this bullshit.  If it’s an attempt at humor it’s not funny, even by Surly standards. 

[Burt Macklin 18994]

 

14 hours ago, South Austin said:

Waiting to hear the news break that the gal Urban Meyer butt-fingered in the bar a year or so ago was Conor Stallions in drag.

FIFY

14 hours ago, Juicy said:

This shit just gets more and more wild. If it wasn’t the team I root for it would be a whole lot better.

Vast networks, manifestos, hacking of university computer, and Venmo. What a story.

And you’ve been on here being a complete and total fucking moron from the start of it. Bravo, sir. 

[locodos 5333]

38 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

I'm not paying that close attention to the story, but why does that get him fired?  I get that it gives UM an out to fire him with cause if they wanted, but why would they want him gone?

Because he has permanently tainted their brand.  

[4th&Five 41457]

2 minutes ago, locodos said:

Because he has permanently tainted their brand.  

Not sure Michigan fans have grasped this yet. To college football fans their program is dirty as fuck now. That doesn’t wash off quickly or easily. Ask SMU and Baylor.