Jim Harbaugh NO LONGER coaches at Michigan

[JBJ 3,830]

1 hour ago, closetojumping said:

This thing gets more absurd by the day. The latest, that Michigan is apparently doubling down and extending the cheating fuck while all of this is going on is about as brazen a fuck you as one could offer to the rest of the CFB world. Fuck these people. 

Yeah.  The rest of the world expected Harbaugh to at least be suspended right now.  Not sure if they think it's a PR move / "nothing to see here" by announcing that they are working.on a deal, but it's having the opposite effect.

Also, it's a dumb business decision that's going to cost them money when they to fire him for cause.

[Laxtonto 13,328]

16 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

https://theathletic.com/5013443/2023/11/01/college-football-coaches-thoughts-sign-stealing-michigan/

 

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

How serious are Michigan’s alleged actions?
 

Most in college football had never heard of anything quite like what has been reportedly going on at Michigan. The Athletic asked coaches how they would rate Michigan’s alleged scheme of attending future opponents’ games to film and steal signals on a scale of 1-5, with 1 being not a big deal and 5 being very serious.

Almost half of the coaches surveyed (46 percent) rated it a 5. The average score among the 50 coaches was 4.2. Only two ranked it below a 3.

“It’s easy to call plays when you know what the defense is,” said a Pac-12 head coach. “It’s a huge deal that someone went to another game and filmed all their signals. That’s Spygate stuff. They were flying around the country? It’s crazy.”

The Wolverines’ reported paper trail of tickets purchased in Stalions’ name has only added to the intrigue and outrage.

“In some ways, they should be held accountable for just sheer stupidity,” said a Sun Belt head coach. “They could’ve done this for years and years and never been caught if they’d just been smart about it.”

A Mountain West linebackers coach who rated the seriousness of the allegations as a 4 was just as baffled by the recklessness of the alleged scheme: “If you’re gonna do it like that, at least be subtle about it. They were so arrogant and brazen and didn’t hide it all. (It) just showed how much they didn’t care about the rules.”

“That’s one of the few rules that nobody is brave or stupid enough to just step over,” said one staffer at an SEC program. “My God, what idiots. Doing it is one thing. Getting caught is an entirely other thing.”

Unsurprisingly, some of the most interesting responses came from coaches who have worked in the Big Ten and faced Michigan.

“We knew they had a signal guy, this Navy Seal or something,” said one former Big Ten analyst (Stalions is a graduate of the Naval Academy and a retired captain of the Marine Corps). “We were very concerned about it. Our head coach was super concerned about it. … In 2021, (Michigan pass rushers) Aidan Hutchinson and (David) Ojabo had these hand signals for run/pass, but we figured that was legit. It got us into the mindset that they were looking for tips and tells. That isn’t a coincidence. We never would’ve guessed it was this deep.”

One of the two coaches who ranked the seriousness 2 recently spent several years in the Big Ten as an assistant. He believes this type of advanced scouting goes on more than some might think, but probably not to the same degree.

“A lot of guys are coward-ing out, acting like they’re at places that haven’t done stuff that’s also crossed the line,” he said. “Michigan just got caught.”

One Big 12 head coach rated it 4 and took more of a big-picture view, lamenting how this situation is a byproduct of frustrating inaction in college football.

“We are wasting so much time and energy on this. We are employing individuals whose main jobs are to signal or steal signals,” he said. “The technology is available. All these guys with different-colored shirts and these guys that have these boards up? It’s just a bad look for our sport. We’re always reactive in this sport. This is something we should’ve handled on our own.”

What about repercussions?

It’s a complicated question but an easy answer for coaches. Ninety-four percent believe Michigan should be punished if there’s proof of off-campus opponent scouting to steal signals. Most agreed it’s a serious integrity issue for the Big Ten but struggled with determining a fitting punishment given a lack of recent precedent.

“I think you should be fired for that stuff,” one Group of 5 head coach said. “Doing stuff like that where you violate all the ethics of sportsmanship, that’s horrible.”

Few coaches went that far, but several did say they believe a postseason ban should be on the table. “Everyone is watching this,” one Mountain West defensive coordinator said. “A slap on the wrist and everyone will be doing it.”

In their view, the nature of the offense is more problematic and deserving of faster sanctions than typical recruiting violations — especially if there’s proof that Stalions and his associates have attended and filmed games during the 2023 season.

“The coaches in the conference are going to try to use it and make an example of Michigan,” one recent Big Ten assistant said. “That’s the problem. It’s the Big Ten and the Big Ten coaches that are saying ‘eff that.’ They’re gonna plead to the Big Ten: ‘I thought we’re the conference of integrity, sportsmanship, class and academic excellence.’ That’s really what’s gonna get ‘em.”

Another longtime Big Ten staffer sees an immediate postseason ban as the only reasonable response. The staffer argued that, regardless of how the College Football Playoff committee treats this situation, new Big Ten commissioner Tony Petitti needs to step in for the good of the conference.

“If you’re doing it — which they did — and you’re caught — which they were — and it’s explicitly against the rules — which it is — and everyone believes that to some degree it’s a competitive advantage, then they shouldn’t be able to play in the Big Ten title game,” he said. “The Big Ten owes 13 other programs the competitive balance and owes it to them to protect the sanctity of the conference. If that many programs have confirmed that he bought tickets specifically under his name, they can’t play in the Big Ten title game. There’s no gray area. It’s explicitly against the rules.”

Added one Power 5 head coach: “I’ll never understand how Jim Harbaugh does what he wants and nobody says anything. Michigan doesn’t care. No one holds him accountable. These guys haven’t held him accountable for anything.”

Other coaches are less enthusiastic about handing down severe penalties if the Wolverines are indeed guilty of the alleged scheme. As one Sun Belt head coach put it, it wouldn’t feel right to wreck the careers of everyone on staff based on “one young dumb guy’s decisions.”

Several coaches were skeptical that Harbaugh’s players deserved to endure a postseason ban.

“Do you punish the kids for it? What did they know?” one Group of 5 general manager asked. “I wouldn’t imagine they were aware of this, to the extent of what was going on. They were just playing ball. That’s why I always hate vacated games and bowl bans and punishing people that were not complicit. Why does J.J. McCarthy have to suffer for that?”

Does Jim Harbaugh have plausible deniability?

On the same day the Big Ten confirmed an NCAA investigation of Michigan was underway, Harbaugh issued a statement pledging full cooperation. He denied having any knowledge of illegal signal stealing and denied directing anyone to engage in off-campus scouting.

Are his coaching peers buying it?

Seventy percent of the coaches surveyed are not. Among the 13 head coaches polled, eight do not believe Harbaugh has plausible deniability. To them, a staffer whose official role is working in the recruiting department being so involved with Wolverines coordinators on the sidelines during the game is a red flag.

“I don’t believe (Harbaugh) organized or started it, but if some young guy comes up to me and says, ‘I’ve got all of their signals,’ well, I’m thinking, ‘I know you did something that you shouldn’t have,’” one Big Ten defensive coordinator said. “That’s on the coordinators. And if I’m the head coach and I’m watching one of my recruiting analysts have a constant flow of information with my coordinators during a game, I’m wondering what is going on there or I’m an idiot.”

A Pac-12 quarterbacks coach agreed about the suspect optics. “It doesn’t look good. He’s next to Jim Harbaugh and then the defensive coordinator (Jesse Minter) and then the offensive coordinator (Sherrone Moore). (For analysts) there are rules about what they can and can’t do. They’re just supposed to be charting and bringing energy.”

“Hell no,” said an analyst in the ACC. “Who gets that close to a head coach who doesn’t have access?”

Beyond that, these coaches understand the NCAA rules. Head coaches are presumed to be responsible for the actions and violations of all institutional staff members. “That’s NCAA manual 101,” one SEC assistant said. Harbaugh has already served a three-game self-imposed suspension this season for alleged recruiting violations, a factor in any argument that he promoted an atmosphere of compliance.

The fact that Stalions is making $55,000 annually also adds to coaches’ skepticism.

“Who paid for this?” wondered a Pac-12 head coach. “There’s no way this kid paid for it out of his own pocket. You can’t tell me Jim didn’t know. This is the same guy whose answers to the recruiting thing (allegations stemming from the COVID-19 dead period) was to say, ‘I don’t remember.’”

One head coach in the Sun Belt conceded that it’s conceivable that Harbaugh could’ve been in the dark on the extent of Stalions’ actions: “There’s some stuff that goes on in my building that I’m sure I don’t know about. There are guys that I take information from where I don’t know where they get all their information.”

A Group of 5 offensive coordinator added, “A lot of head coaches are clueless, and most of the time it’s on purpose. But there is a very, very slim chance he didn’t know. He’s on the headset. You would be asking, ‘So, how the hell does this guy know all this stuff?’”

Is Michigan’s success since 2021 owed in part to illegal signal stealing?

 

Michigan went 2-4 during the pandemic-shortened 2020 season. Since then, the Wolverines have made a remarkable turnaround in going 30-3, thumping Ohio State twice after losing eight in a row to their rival and winning two Big Ten titles to earn CFP bids.

The details of Michigan’s alleged signal-stealing scheme have a lot of people in the coaching world questioning whether it played a key role in that startling 180. Within the Big Ten, the Wolverines’ knack for getting great intel on opponents was already on the radar of rival coaching staffs.

“I think Michigan is really good at stealing your signals,” a Big Ten running backs coach told The Athletic in 2022 on the eve of the Michigan-Ohio State game. “They got our stuff early and they got us on both sides.”

Seventy-four percent believe illegal signal stealing has played a role in Michigan’s rise. One coach pointed out that the Wolverines utilizing that intel to turn into a powerhouse again has also enabled them to recruit better, both with blue-chip high school recruits and transfers, now that the program is atop the Big Ten.

“If this is all factually true, look at how their record changed since they started doing this,” said an AAC head coach.

“It’s a hell of a coincidence, isn’t it?” said a Pac-12 quarterbacks coach with a chuckle.

A Pac-12 head coach agreed and referenced Michigan’s struggles in 2020, when the program endured losses to Michigan State, Indiana, Wisconsin and Penn State. “They had to beat Rutgers in overtime!” he added. Since that season, the Wolverines are 24-1 in Big Ten play.

A Sun Belt head coach believes the scheme was a “total difference-maker” and was a strong voice among the 74 percent. (Worth noting: In the Wolverines’ past two games against the Buckeyes, they’ve allowed an average of 25 points. In the previous two before 2021, they surrendered an average of 59 points per game.)

“They have the answers to the test,” he said. “Defense is all about anticipation, and then you take two steps in that direction. It’s a way bigger benefit for a defense than an offense.”

Among the 26 percent who gave the Wolverines the benefit of the doubt, many gave credit to their personnel, their physical style of play and their recent run of NFL Draft picks, with a combined 14 picks in the past two years, including three first-rounders and five defensive players selected in the first two rounds.

“You still have to have your 18- to 22-year-olds go out there and block people,” said one Big 12 offensive assistant. “Aidan Hutchinson still ran right through the chest of that left tackle and murdered him.”

How many points would Michigan’s alleged signal-stealing operation be worth in an average game?

If Michigan’s staff went into games with impeccable but impermissibly gathered information on its opponents’ signals, just how valuable would that edge be? How can you quantify it? We asked coaches to attempt to put a number on it. Of those who ventured a guess, roughly half felt that the Wolverines’ edge was somewhere in the range of 3 to 7 points. The other half believed calling it a one-score difference wasn’t nearly enough.

One Sun Belt head coach didn’t hesitate to say it could easily be a 20-point difference. A Big 12 analyst thinks it’s closer to a touchdown for the offense and another for the defense. It’s easy for them to let their imagination run wild about how many perfect calls for either side turned into easy points. More explosive plays and efficiency on offense. More tackles for loss and third-down stops on defense. In Michigan’s toughest games, it may have made a serious difference.

“You can probably attribute that to a few points here and there in some big ones,” one SEC assistant said.

Perhaps the right people to ask, though, are those who are experienced signal stealers. One defensive assistant at a Big 12 school who specialized in legal signal stealing at a previous job insists the difference between hunting for hints in TV copy and having a full game of footage you’ve filmed is massive. The coach believes it’s worth several touchdowns on both offense and defense if Michigan had a reliable system in place to relay the intel to coordinators during games.

“I mean, you’re shooting fish in a barrel,” the defensive coach said. “If I was able to do what Michigan was doing, that would be the difference between big-time winning and losing. If you filmed all the signals from a game, you’d take that and put it into the film system and match up the play-by-play with what the opponent is running. And then, I mean, it’s over. Having a steady film of the signals during a game would be mind-blowing.

“To me, it would be the same as going and filming somebody’s practice. If I was on the Michigan staff and was part of that operation, I would be very uncomfortable using that info. To me, that’s a big moral line in the sand that was crossed.”

Others were more skeptical. One former Big Ten assistant said he’s coached in games where his staff had every signal and blitz call for an opponent and still lost. Some point to the likelihood that opponents — especially Big Ten foes who may have had suspicions about Michigan’s tactics — made in-game adjustments to limit their exposure.

The Wolverines’ last loss, in the CFP semifinal against TCU in the Fiesta Bowl, came against an opponent that had been warned ahead of time and knew to switch up its signals, sources said. Early in the game, the Horned Frogs used false “dummy” signals when calling plays. Quarterback Max Duggan would check to the sideline for signals that TCU was changing its play call. Except they weren’t. The original call was still on. The TCU’s staff’s rationale: If Michigan got burned by its intel two or three times, Harbaugh and his coaches might stop listening to their signal stealer.

Whether or not that worked, TCU went on to score 51 against a team allowing 13.4 points per game.

Rank in-person scouting on a scale of 1 to 10

In the past, the act of paying recruits and players was considered among the worst rule-breaking in college football. Now that we’ve entered the NIL era, what violations do coaches consider worse than in-person scouting? The average score was 7.4. It’s no surprise, though, that this rates highly for many coaches who were genuinely shocked by the details of the Wolverines’ scheme.

“I’m trying to think of what else could be worse,” one Group of 5 head coach said. “It’s as low as you can go other than tampering (with players).”

For several coaches, that was the first offense that came to mind. Another Group of 5 head coach said he considers Michigan’s allegations a 6 relative to the far worse crime of tampering. “That’s rampant,” he said. “Calling players on your roster and offering ’em deals to transfer? That’s a 10.”

Other violations that coaches and staff members suggested would be worse than off-campus signal stealing include the mistreatment of players, hacking opponents’ computer systems and point shaving and gambling on games.

Two coaches interviewed offered a more specific allegation: coaches going into the locker room at halftime and watching film of the first half. That’s not a gray area. The NCAA prohibits the use of any game film, TV footage or computers for coaching purposes during games.

“I know for a fact there are some head coaches that watch the film of the first half at halftime,” one SEC staffer said. “I would say it’s honestly on the same level, if not worse.” Both agreed that reviewing the tape provides a significant advantage for head coaches who call plays on offense.

“What front are they playing vs. this protection? How wide is the leverage? This guy has been cheating for the whole half, so we’re gonna get a double move on him,” another Group of 5 head coach said. “They know what they’re looking for. That’s a 10.”

One Power 5 head coach said he isn’t shocked to hear coaches watching tape at halftime occurs. As alleged details continue to emerge about the Wolverines’ scouting scheme under Stalions, this coach can’t help but wonder what else they were up to. In his experience, if you’re willing to cross that line and go to those risky lengths to compete for a national championship, there’s not much else you’d consider off-limits.

“If you’re doing that to win games, you’re probably doing anything else to win games,” he said. “Think about that. There’s a lot of other ways to live in the gray or break the rules to win games. If that’s one you’re doing, you know there’s other stuff that’s gonna come out.”

In the opinion of one MAC head coach, it’s not that serious. He called it a 5 based on his experience in the coaching business, saying, “College football has a pretty sordid history.”

Does your program have a staffer responsible for legal signal stealing?

Since the NCAA’s investigation into Michigan began, one claim many have made is signal stealing is a common practice that everybody is doing. Perhaps that’s true, but only 17 coaches surveyed said their program has a staff member leading an effort to legally steal opponents’ signals.

Many more acknowledged they’ll have graduate assistants or other low-level staffers watch TV copy during the week but said they are not seriously invested in the practice. Several head coaches surveyed said they view signal-stealing efforts as a waste of time and energy, with one adding that it would “f— me up” as a play caller if he tried to factor in that information.

One Group of 5 head coach believes most coaches are “fanatical” about breaking down TV copy, especially for changing their own signals that were on broadcasts. During his tenure, he has had two different signal-stealing experts on staff.

“Every school I’ve been at, it’s the same kind of guy,” the coach said. “They’re just extremely sharp. Photographic memories. Pretty much any offensive coordinator has done that at some point in their life, or they wouldn’t have the IQ to be an OC.”

Multiple assistant coaches surveyed acknowledge they have been tasked with signal stealing in the past and recognize that developing that skill helped them move up in the coaching business.

“It’s the best way to add value for a nobody who doesn’t coach,” said one former signal stealer. “I didn’t want to get lost in the shuffle of off-field people. I wanted to provide a role and make myself valuable for coaching. You’re trying to make yourself irreplaceable and build loyalty and trust with the people there to the point of finding a way to help your team win games.”

The Big 12 defensive assistant with a background in signal stealing said combing through TV copy for hours often felt like detective work. He and five other quality control coaches and GAs would spend the week on it and meet on Fridays to put together a plan.

“I really enjoyed it,” he said. “Lincoln Riley was the biggest puzzle I ever figured out. It took two years. He has so many signals, and he does it so fast. But once we got enough data on him, it all came together in an ‘a ha!’ moment.”

Offensive signals were typically more difficult to decode, he said, but some offenses were easier if only one person — specifically the head coach or coordinator — did the signaling. The coach learned that legal signal stealing can provide an “unbelievable” advantage if a staff gets the right system in place and knows how to steal them live during games.

“There were a couple games defensively where it absolutely won us a game,” he said.

Do you want coach-to-player communication technology?

The Michigan investigation is occurring at the same time that coach-to-player communication technology is in the works for college football. A trial run is expected for non-CFP bowl games at the end of the season, though few details are known on whether coaches can expect NFL-style in-helmet communication or wristband technology similar to what’s used in college baseball.

Among the coaches surveyed, 84 percent said they’d be in favor of that innovation. Some said they’ve been advocating for it for years. They’re tired of having to create and maintain these complex systems of signalers, signs, boards and curtains for play calling. Even the former signal stealers surveyed said they’d welcome change.

“I think in-helmet communication would level the playing field and save a lot of time,” the Big 12 defensive assistant said.

“Why haven’t we done this? There are obviously some powerful programs out there that don’t want it,” an ACC offensive coordinator said. “If you put earpieces in the helmets, you’ve gotta coach football and you’ve gotta coach technique. You don’t know the screen is coming. You don’t know what run is coming.”

Among the Group of 5 coaches, 14 of 19 surveyed supported coach-to-player communication technology while acknowledging that change could present challenges. One head coach questioned whether his conference peers would be willing to pay for it. Another anticipated it would be a budgetary strain if the communication systems require stadium infrastructure upgrades.

Offensive coaches who voted no are concerned about whether these systems would actually help. If you’re running a fast-tempo offense and don’t huddle, the play would still need to be signaled to the rest of the offensive players. Defensive coaches who voted no prefer having the ability to make last-second, pre-snap changes. For both sides, rolling out this technology next season would prompt some interesting adjustments.

“With how fast we play, the headset can get kinda crazy at times,” one SEC offensive coach said. “How much do you expose the quarterback to that? I feel like our last quarterback would’ve been like, ‘Shut up and let me think.’”

Coaches generally agreed that an effective communication system would help solve some of the problems presented by Michigan’s signal-stealing operation. But they’re not naïve enough to believe it’s going to provide a perfect cure for cheating. Not in this sport.

“A good signal-stealing operation is just an adaptation to the rules,” an SEC staffer said. “As the rules change, there will be further adaptation. They’ll find ways to just push it out of bounds again. People who are committed to toeing the line or crossing it, they’re gonna do it no matter what the rules are.”

 

 

 

Damn.... this is the first real set of large scale viewpoints of college coaches.... Not a good luck for the Michigan fans that say nobody cares or it doesnt mean anything..

[gatormarc 938]

2 minutes ago, JBJ said:

Also, it's a dumb business decision that's going to cost them money when they to fire him for cause.

Honestly it depends on the contract.

The smartest thing for Michigan to do would be to push the extension as a PR move as a "sign of faith" but strengthen the clauses for what defines "for-cause."

They may not have known about the sign thing, but his recruiting violations were certainly a known factor when they started this extension process.

[Da Fino 2,821]

1 hour ago, closetojumping said:

Poor Jim McElwain is caught up in another “is it him?” photo controversy. I honestly feel bad for the guy. 

 

But that controversy was cheeky and fun. 

[gatormarc 938]

2 minutes ago, Da Fino said:

But that controversy was cheeky and fun. 

I dunno. Some people seriously though it was him.

It got annoying really fast.

[closetojumping 65,538]

3 minutes ago, Da Fino said:

But that controversy was cheeky and fun. 

For you and I, but not for McElwain, it wasn’t. 

[Homercles 10,206]

2 hours ago, Juicy said:

I have a pretty big problem with the sizing that Harbaugh is wearing on his costume. That shit is wide. 

 

That’s the shittiest salute I’ve ever seen

[gatormarc 938]

5 minutes ago, Homercles said:

That’s the shittiest salute I’ve ever seen

I bet he has a weak ass beach volleyball serve too.

[PittsburghTiger 6,358]

2 hours ago, Juicy said:

According to the Michigan 9.95 groups. Appears that Michigan thinks that this will blow over and not become a major issue to keep Harbaugh around for a long time.

 

A look into the meeting. Nothing to see here.

[MrBig 5,653]

Western Michigan played Michigan State in 2022 in East Lansing on a Friday. I would not be surprised if “that sign stealing guy” was on the WMU sideline for that game as well. We need all the detectives to review that game film and report back to us. If we found something, I would love to hear “as reported on surlyhorns.com” all over the internet and watch Michigan fans melt down on us.

 

[BabaYaga 15,632]

13 hours ago, USNALonghorn said:

Disagree. It’s one of the coolest traditions, but it’s no longer the greatest CFB rivalry. RRS and tOSU/Mich are the contenders for that title.

All true  Still draws eyeballs.  The RRS drew something like 8+m viewers.  Army/Navy was a little over seven (last tear obviously), but in the 4th qtr and then OT it jumped to over 10m.  

Meatchichen and the fuckeyes beat both with 17+m

[4th&Five 42,026]

Army/Navy also gets its own Saturday. If it was up against other games those numbers would be much lower. 

[Victor R. Franko 90]

I got tired of trying to catchup on the last 3-4 pages, what with all the shit flinging back and forth.

 

This is obviously going to be a slow roll for the sake of web hits. I'm sure the information is all gathered and being doled out to highest bidder for reporting and web clicks.

Probably already posted, but I don't care. Central Meat-chicken my be a part of the scandal if they helped the head stealer in charge observe MSU.

Link to CBS Sports article of Stalion being on sidelines during game.

So if Central Michigan is straight, information on issued sideline passes will be available. That is, unless they don't care what lunatic is allowed to use their sideline passes and shoot the place up.

 

Central Michigan is investigating allegations that suspended Michigan analyst Connor Stalions was on the sideline for its season opener on the road against Michigan State, according to ESPN. A man who resembles Stalions appears to be on the sideline wearing CMU apparel in photos that have been circulating on social media. 

The Michigan staffer did not have a general sideline pass, which are relatively common. Instead, Stalions appears to have a pass that reads "VB" for visiting bench. Those credentials are only given out to opposing teams for coaches, trainers and staffers. He also was wearing Central Michigan apparel that appeared to be team-issued. It's unclear how Stalions may have gained access to these resources. 

[Zeus 6,879]

11 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

 

He was a former Michigan OC so I don't think he's going to throw Jimbo under the bus.

 

[Zeus 6,879]

30 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

Army/Navy also gets its own Saturday. If it was up against other games those numbers would be much lower. 

I have fond memories because my wife's dad was a Marine so we go hard for Navy

When my son was born the first thing we turned on the TV for 2 days later was the Army/Navy game

[derpyhorndog 2,703]

1 hour ago, MrBig said:

Western Michigan played Michigan State in 2022 in East Lansing on a Friday. I would not be surprised if “that sign stealing guy” was on the WMU sideline for that game as well. We need all the detectives to review that game film and report back to us. If we found something, I would love to hear “as reported on surlyhorns.com” all over the internet and watch Michigan fans melt down on us.

Sooo, I just did this for shits and gigs. I could only find the fifty-minute condensed version embedded below on YouTube (no full game). So lots of the regular sideline shots (during short timeouts, etc.) are not covered. 

That said...think there might be something here. Not the best quality video, but there is one guy I noticed that looks a hell of a lot like Stalions to me.

• He is wearing grey shoes, similar to if not the same as the ones worn by the "Stalions lookalike" in the CMU video. I didn't count a single other WM staffer wearing grey shoes or anything other than (what I assume are team-issue) black shoes with white soles.
• I also haven't seen any other WM sideline staffer wearing the same long-sleeved tee that he is in. 
• He is holding what looks like sheets of paper folded in half.
• In both of his appearances (at least the ones I could find), he is lined up on the 46 yard line on either side of the field. Which 46 he is on corresponds to what side of the field that MSU happens to be driving from on offense at the time.
• As for the highlighter-colored signal calls on the MSU sideline, in the one shot I could find of them in the video (25:28 mark), where do you think they were lined up? You guessed it, right around the 46 yard line.

Below is a screenshot of the WM Stalions lookalike, video beneath that. You can find him in shots around the 26:11 and 40:49 marks.

Edited November 1, 2023 by derpyhorndog

[ClubWhatever 12,324]

Is he wearing those camera shades?

[lilMAC25 4,006]

 

Lol, Finebaum (who carried water for the cheatingest coaches and conferences in college football) is ripping the coach of a team in another conference for cheating.

 

[Not a cat 5,819]

Today I learned from Francisco's posted article that it is against the rules to review film at halftime.  Seriously, how many people break that rule*.

*Not pulling a juicy and saying everyone does it, just that I bet that rule is broken a lot.

[Tex Long 4,677]

1 minute ago, Not a cat said:

Today I learned from Francisco's posted article that it is against the rules to review film at halftime.  Seriously, how many people break that rule*.

*Not pulling a juicy and saying everyone does it, just that I bet that rule is broken a lot.

Seriously, are your 100 or so graduate assistants and analysts just sitting on their hands all the way through the game, including halftime? Do they not watch the oppos' pre-game, chart every play, check for tips and tells? 

 

[gatormarc 938]

11 minutes ago, lilMAC25 said:

Lol, Finebaum (who carried water for the cheatingest coaches and conferences in college football) is ripping the coach of a team in another conference for cheating.

 

He was carrying water from Harbaugh like a week ago.

He's playing both sides.

[Mitch Cumsteen 19,005]

10 minutes ago, Not a cat said:

Today I learned from Francisco's posted article that it is against the rules to review film at halftime.  Seriously, how many people break that rule*.

*Not pulling a juicy and saying everyone does it, just that I bet that rule is broken a lot.

If anybody has watched Texas in the second half of games over the last three years... this would be another example of knowing that our coaching staff is clean.

[Tex Long 4,677]

10 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

If anybody has watched Texas in the second half of games over the last three years... this would be another example of knowing that our coaching staff is clean.

Was thinking the same thing a couple of days ago, but it's been sorta reversed this season it seems like. Can we attribute that to any of the new hires? 

[BurntOrange&White 42,016]

1 hour ago, 4th&Five said:

Army/Navy also gets its own Saturday. If it was up against other games those numbers would be much lower. 

I'd like to attend that game at some piont.

[BurntOrange&White 42,016]

51 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said:

Is he wearing those camera shades?

I do believe those are they RayBans

[Tex Long 4,677]

3 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

I do believe those are they RayBans

Looks like 'em.

[Skipper 6,412]

The CMU official response to this is going to be interesting.  To the extent that it was Stallions on the sideline (which seems likely at this point), I don't think there is any way JM didn't know that after the game yesterday when he indicated it was being investigated.  There just aren't that many bench passes available.  The entire football dept works for him.  All he has to do is ask who that guy was and who approved him for a pass and someone can give him an answer.  My guess is he knew exactly who he was and they are trying to figure out how the hell to respond saving face under the circumstances.   Because if JM knew who he was, some assistant coach or low level staffer isn't going to get thrown under the bus and allow their career to get sidetracked over this if the HC was in the loop.  

[Tex Pete 21,518]

1 hour ago, Not a cat said:

Today I learned from Francisco's posted article that it is against the rules to review film at halftime.  Seriously, how many people break that rule*.

*Not pulling a juicy and saying everyone does it, just that I bet that rule is broken a lot.

I do not know. I am sure some schools do it since today's technology makes it pretty easy, but it is also illegal in Texas HS football.

I was with a team that was accused by flunkies of another team (with a rich history, but that always lost to my team) because my team had a video screen and projector set up in the locker room. The setup was for the weekly pregame hype video. I can understand the suspicion, but it was weird and made that team look pathetic.

[Tex Pete 21,518]

13 minutes ago, Skipper said:

The CMU official response to this is going to be interesting.  To the extent that it was Stallions on the sideline (which seems likely at this point), I don't think there is any way JM didn't know that after the game yesterday when he indicated it was being investigated.  There just aren't that many bench passes available.  The entire football dept works for him.  All he has to do is ask who that guy was and who approved him for a pass and someone can give him an answer.  My guess is he knew exactly who he was and they are trying to figure out how the hell to respond saving face under the circumstances.   Because if JM knew who he was, some assistant coach or low level staffer isn't going to get thrown under the bus and allow their career to get sidetracked over this if the HC was in the loop.  

I agree. I just cannot imagine someone getting their hands on one of those passes without the Football Department's approval. Could be a pass intended for a team doc, donor, or sponsor, but even in bigger HS stadiums, there is usually at least a list of who gets the passes. Sometimes stadium personnel verify names versus lists.

[Francisco 2.0 32,613]

24 minutes ago, Tex Pete said:

I do not know. I am sure some schools do it since today's technology makes it pretty easy, but it is also illegal in Texas HS football.

I was with a team that was accused by flunkies of another team (with a rich history, but that always lost to my team) because my team had a video screen and projector set up in the locker room. The setup was for the weekly pregame hype video. I can understand the suspicion, but it was weird and made that team look pathetic.

 

It may still be illegal in Texas, but other states it isn't any longer.  Hell, high schools can have tablets, laptops, whatever all showing game video on the sidelines now.  Our high school has a camera in the endzone + one in the pressbox feeding video to a portable server, which in turn feeds half a dozen ipads during the game, and coaches can use them on the sidelines, locker room, whatever.

Edit:  Here's the rule and a company that sells turnkey solutions for high schools

 

http://insightreplay.com/faqs/#football-rule-1612

 

Quote

What is NFHS Football Rule 1612?
NFHS Football Rule 1612 covers Coaches’ Field Equipment, including communication equipment like iPads and other devices that can play video clips. In the 2014 NFHS Football Rules Book, Rule 1.6.1.2 says

“Communication devices including but not limited to audio recorder, Local Area Network (LAN) phones and/or headsets, mobile phones, still photograph(s), film, analog or digital video(s) and/or Internet depictions may be used by coaches and nonplayers.”

Is sideline replay legal in high school and college football?
NFHS Football Rule 1.6.1.2 Coaches’ Field Equipment was changed in 2013 to permit the use of video during games. Check with your state association to see if it’s allowed where you play.

 NCAA rules do not permit the use of video during games.

 

`Sample photo, but yeah, this is allowed now on a high school sideline:

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Francisco 2.0

[Helobious 9,826]

6 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

It may still be illegal in Texas, but other states it isn't any longer.  Hell, high schools can have tablets, laptops, whatever all showing game video on the sidelines now.  Our high school has a camera in the endzone + one in the pressbox feeding video to a portable server, which in turn feeds half a dozen ipads during the game, and coaches can use them on the sidelines, locker room, whatever.

 

`

Texas is one of only (2?) states that play by exact NCAA rules. The other states go by some kind of federation rule. 

[Skipper 6,412]

19 minutes ago, Tex Pete said:

I agree. I just cannot imagine someone getting their hands on one of those passes without the Football Department's approval. Could be a pass intended for a team doc, donor, or sponsor, but even in bigger HS stadiums, there is usually at least a list of who gets the passes. Sometimes stadium personnel verify names versus lists.

This wasn't even a sideline pass.  It was a bench pass. Those passes are 100% controlled by the Athletic Dept and specifically the football team.  Someone on that staff asked someone in the possession of the actual passes for a pass and then someone gave it to Stallions.  That entire chain of command is under the Head Coach.  Whether or not there is a "list" or not, it shouldn't be a time consuming investigation.   Which makes me speculate they are just trying to figure out how to mitigate the damage from a PR standpoint right now.

[Tex Long 4,677]

Simple fix. Require both teams to provide scripts for the entire game to each other. Scripts would be divided into Scenes, both teams would announce the Scene at the first play following a new possession, and it would be an Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty on the coaching staff if any play is run out of script order, and a five-point deduction if an unscripted play is run. In addition, a panel of three independent judges would be appointed and would award Style Points on a per-play basis for both offense and defense. In the event of a tie, game winner would be the team with the greater number of Style Points.

[Laxtonto 13,328]

36 minutes ago, Skipper said:

The CMU official response to this is going to be interesting.  To the extent that it was Stallions on the sideline (which seems likely at this point), I don't think there is any way JM didn't know that after the game yesterday when he indicated it was being investigated.  There just aren't that many bench passes available.  The entire football dept works for him.  All he has to do is ask who that guy was and who approved him for a pass and someone can give him an answer.  My guess is he knew exactly who he was and they are trying to figure out how the hell to respond saving face under the circumstances.   Because if JM knew who he was, some assistant coach or low level staffer isn't going to get thrown under the bus and allow their career to get sidetracked over this if the HC was in the loop.  

Well don't forget that at least 3 other members of the staff for CMU have ties to Michigan or the current Michigan staff...

If I were a person pointing fingers I would say Jake Kostner, the QB coach, who was a student assistant at Michigan from 15-18,  would be where I would start...

 

[Tex Pete 21,518]

8 minutes ago, Skipper said:

This wasn't even a sideline pass.  It was a bench pass. Those passes are 100% controlled by the Athletic Dept and specifically the football team.  Someone on that staff asked someone in the possession of the actual passes for a pass and then someone gave it to Stallions.  That entire chain of command is under the Head Coach.  Whether or not there is a "list" or not, it shouldn't be a time consuming investigation.   Which makes me speculate they are just trying to figure out how to mitigate the damage from a PR standpoint right now.

Sorry, I was conflating the two. I always had a bench pass, but sideline passes are a little less strictly controlled I guess. 

[gatormarc 938]

 

[Skipper 6,412]

3 minutes ago, Tex Pete said:

Sorry, I was conflating the two. I always had a bench pass, but sideline passes are a little less strictly controlled I guess. 

Right. If it was a sideline pass it would still be a big deal but the "investigation" response would make a bit more sense as there seems to be a wider distribution.  I just can't fathom how a bench pass was issued/given to someone without direct knowledge of someone on the staff.

[Tex Pete 21,518]

I would guess either the HC does know how Stalions got the pass or they’re looking at images figuring out who got a pass that wasn’t actually on the sidelines (aka gave their pass to Stalions). Standing on the 46 indicates to me he wasn’t really concerned with the HC having him removed. 

[Tex Long 4,677]

Just now, Skipper said:

Right. If it was a sideline pass it would still be a big deal but the "investigation" response would make a bit more sense as there seems to be a wider distribution.  I just can't fathom how a bench pass was issued/given to someone without direct knowledge of someone on the staff.

It wouldn't be, of course. So what? The person responsible probably ain't gonna be announced, although the HC will likely want some, uh, "consequences" visited upon that person. 

The NC2A investigators oughta be looking into the Big 12 (and doubtless others) Referee non-calls instead of fucking around with this. 

[Zeus 6,879]

18 minutes ago, Skipper said:

This wasn't even a sideline pass.  It was a bench pass. Those passes are 100% controlled by the Athletic Dept and specifically the football team.  Someone on that staff asked someone in the possession of the actual passes for a pass and then someone gave it to Stallions.  That entire chain of command is under the Head Coach.  Whether or not there is a "list" or not, it shouldn't be a time consuming investigation.   Which makes me speculate they are just trying to figure out how to mitigate the damage from a PR standpoint right now.

so FIRE MACELWAIN!!!?????

I been saying that since he was the Gator HC lol

[Tex Pete 21,518]

1 minute ago, Tex Long said:

It wouldn't be, of course. So what? The person responsible probably ain't gonna be announced, although the HC will likely want some, uh, "consequences" visited upon that person. 

The NC2A investigators oughta be looking into the Big 12 (and doubtless others) Referee non-calls instead of fucking around with this. 

I think this is a very big deal. And I’m sure McElwain is either responsible in this case or winked and nodded at the guy who was. 

Big 12 officiating is worthy of investigation, but has nothing to do with this. They should address both. 

[ultimaton 2,985]

So when this is over, in true NCAA fashion Jim Harbaugh will have a fat extension, Central Michigan will have a four year bowl ban, and Jim McElwain will be hit with a show-cause penalty.

[locodos 5,593]

1 minute ago, ultimaton said:

So when this is over, in true NCAA fashion Jim Harbaugh will have a fat extension, Central Michigan will have a four year bowl ban, and Jim McElwain will be hit with a show-cause penalty.

and shark

[BurntOrange&White 42,016]

Just now, ultimaton said:

So when this is over, in true NCAA fashion Jim Harbaugh will have a fat extension, Central Michigan will have a four year bowl ban, and Jim McElwain will be hit with a show-cause penalty.

Harbough heads to NFL, Michigan gets wins vacated and probation seems most ideal NCAA scenario. Unless actual evidence is so overwhelming and Michigan lies to the NCAA like they did earlier this year.

[kevwun 16,449]

There was at least one other game where Michigan gave a team info in the hopes they would pull an upset that would help Michigan wasn't there?  Seems rather likely that they let him on the sideline to record and also not unlikely that he gave them something in return.

[Tex Long 4,677]

2 minutes ago, Tex Pete said:

I think this is a very big deal. And I’m sure McElwain is either responsible in this case or winked and nodded at the guy who was. 

 

I am apparently one of the few among us who does not see this as some big deal.

But I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I think Harbaugh is a dickhead, and I don't mind whatever horrible shit happens to him. On the other hand, I think the "no in-person" rule is fatuous and the initial response reported of many coaches appeared to have that opinion. It's particularly regarded that the alleged reason (or one of the reasons) for its existence is the idea that rich schools which could afford to buy a ticket would have an unfair advantage.

I think either Cowherd or Pate mentioned our own coach as being one who didn't seem to think it is particularly unusual for scouts to attend opponents' games. The outrage appears to be centered on the use of cameras. Frankly, it never even occurred to me - and I think to most everyone else here abouts - that there was any kind of rule against scouting games. In a stadium with literally thousands of cameras in the stands, it seems egregiously stupid to think one more camera is some sort of unfair advantage.

[ClubWhatever 12,324]

Ban all they asses

[Tex Pete 21,518]

15 minutes ago, Tex Long said:

it seems egregiously stupid to think one more camera is some sort of unfair advantage.

That very clearly is not how most coaches view it. Look at the huge shields teams are using on the sidelines to block their signals from view these days. I think people just had no idea how much some teams were devoting to stealing signs.

[Tex Long 4,677]

2 minutes ago, Tex Pete said:

That very clearly is not how most coaches view it. Look at the huge shields teams are using on the sidelines to block their signals from view these days. I think people just had no idea how much some teams were devoting to stealing signs.

Ummm... the shields I've noticed are keeping fans on their own side from seeing. If the blocks were in front, their own players wouldn't see. 

Regardless, the TCU - Meatchicken result is more meaningful than all of the sideline and camera bullshit put together. It's too bad for the Frogs that UGA didn't steal their signs.

[Nicole44 22,326]

So sorry! That’s what I get for watching Colin today after an interview. My bad

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Nicole44