Bad boat fire off of LA

[ConferenceRoom 6147]

Boat with sealed hull and fast burning fire with a ton of smoke and low oxygen. If it were slow burning I feel like someone would have smelled it and woken up, but I have no idea. 

[Coelenterate Fuccboi 13119]

I guess it’s possible that if anyone did wake up there could have been so much smoke and darkness they couldn’t find their way out prior to being overcome with the smoke.

[El Diablo 4232]

Died in their sleep breathing air that had little oxygen? Probably coughed a few times before passing out and that was that. 

I knew a chick from San Antonio who attended Kings Point as one of the first female grads back in the late 70's. She was a deck officer (navigator) but one of her classmates had gone the engineering route and was I think a 3rd or 2nd engineer on a merchant ship that had an engine room fire. Fuel line ruptured, fire spraying everywhere and the oilers and wipers (guys tending to the engine) on watch were unprepared for the conflagration. She was badly burned but managed to get those guys out of the engine room, close the valves to the line that was spraying diesel fuel into the space and then got out and secured the watertight door on her way out. I've tried to find the full story on these intertrons over the years with no luck but that girl, probably in her early 20's was a fucking hero of the highest order.

I've been deep in the bowels of a ship when the power has gone out and it's a scary fucking place. Pitch black and if you don't know where you are you're just fucked. Yeah, there's emergency lighting but it's less than perfect and if there's smoke it probably isn't going to do much good anyway.

[Coelenterate Fuccboi 13119]

Regardless of the outcome of investigation, this crew has a tough road ahead. This incident could very well claim some more lives.

[wood 11265]

23 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

Boat with sealed hull and fast burning fire with a ton of smoke and low oxygen. If it were slow burning I feel like someone would have smelled it and woken up, but I have no idea. 

Smoke rarely wakes people up. Maybe a sound or heat associated with the fire might do that, but smoke doesn't. The CO and other bad shit in it render people unconscious. 

That's why we teach the kiddos that when they go to sleep, their eyes go to sleep, their noses go to sleep, etc, but their ears stay awake so they can hear if there's an alarm (thus why they need to stay on their parents' asses to keep the smoke detectors working).

Re: the slow-burning or smoldering fire ... those tend to be oxygen-limited. They aren't burning efficiently yet, so they produce lots of CO, which kills you, esp in your sleep. 

Quote

I guess it’s possible that if anyone did wake up there could have been so much smoke and darkness they couldn’t find their way out prior to being overcome with the smoke.

...and yeah. There's that.

Edited September 6, 2019 by wood

[RPM 26354]

16 hours ago, wood said:

NTSB seems to think the crew did what they could do ...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/05/us/california-boat-fire-thursday/index.html

 

Looks like they did make a rescue effort, but poor design made it impossible.

[strangulation! 1716]

57 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

Died in their sleep breathing air that had little oxygen? Probably coughed a few times before passing out and that was that. 

I knew a chick from San Antonio who attended Kings Point as one of the first female grads back in the late 70's. She was a deck officer (navigator) but one of her classmates had gone the engineering route and was I think a 3rd or 2nd engineer on a merchant ship that had an engine room fire. Fuel line ruptured, fire spraying everywhere and the oilers and wipers (guys tending to the engine) on watch were unprepared for the conflagration. She was badly burned but managed to get those guys out of the engine room, close the valves to the line that was spraying diesel fuel into the space and then got out and secured the watertight door on her way out. I've tried to find the full story on these intertrons over the years with no luck but that girl, probably in her early 20's was a fucking hero of the highest order.

I've been deep in the bowels of a ship when the power has gone out and it's a scary fucking place. Pitch black and if you don't know where you are you're just fucked. Yeah, there's emergency lighting but it's less than perfect and if there's smoke it probably isn't going to do much good anyway.

i've been deep in the bowels of your mum

[Coelenterate Fuccboi 13119]

2 minutes ago, strangulation! said:

i've been deep in the bowels of your mum

Did you find a watch?

[Texas_Rocks 347]

Is it possible that some kind of boat construction material resulted in a particularly potent combination of smoke and fumes that more rapidly overcame the victims. Not a science guy here.

[wood 11265]

21 minutes ago, Texas_Rocks said:

Is it possible that some kind of boat construction material resulted in a particularly potent combination of smoke and fumes that more rapidly overcame the victims. Not a science guy here.

It's always possible, esp with wood glues, resins, and fiberglass, but modern fires are generally much nastier anyway because of all the plastics and petroleum products we have everywhere in our homes, etc. A burning mattress is bad, bad shit, and there were 46 in the bunk room.

Edited September 6, 2019 by wood

[mulletpelini 5216]

4 hours ago, El Diablo said:

Died in their sleep breathing air that had little oxygen? Probably coughed a few times before passing out and that was that. 

I knew a chick from San Antonio who attended Kings Point as one of the first female grads back in the late 70's. She was a deck officer (navigator) but one of her classmates had gone the engineering route and was I think a 3rd or 2nd engineer on a merchant ship that had an engine room fire. Fuel line ruptured, fire spraying everywhere and the oilers and wipers (guys tending to the engine) on watch were unprepared for the conflagration. She was badly burned but managed to get those guys out of the engine room, close the valves to the line that was spraying diesel fuel into the space and then got out and secured the watertight door on her way out. I've tried to find the full story on these intertrons over the years with no luck but that girl, probably in her early 20's was a fucking hero of the highest order.

I've been deep in the bowels of a ship when the power has gone out and it's a scary fucking place. Pitch black and if you don't know where you are you're just fucked. Yeah, there's emergency lighting but it's less than perfect and if there's smoke it probably isn't going to do much good anyway.

Nightmares.  I'm usually very good with bearings but damn on upper floors of closed hotels, I feel like I've got vertigo for a few seconds after getting off the elevator.

[justhookit 4191]

8 hours ago, wood said:

It's always possible, esp with wood glues, resins, and fiberglass, but modern fires are generally much nastier anyway because of all the plastics and petroleum products we have everywhere in our homes, etc. A burning mattress is bad, bad shit, and there were 46 in the bunk room.

I’m too lazy to look this up but the boat was fiberglass? Most dive/fish/cruise boats that size here in Texas are tin cans. This accident makes me sick. Something went really, really wrong (obviously)  but it’s a difficult pill for me to swallow that there isn’t some crew culpability. Ignoring what was said upthread about cg regs, there is no fucking way any boat that size has anyone checking anything unless they are coming off watch or just went to take a piss. You know fires, and boat fires probably go even faster.. fuck I know my guys would have been burned all over before they let us all die down below.  I’ve talked with them since this happened. You know better than me on fires, but boat sinking or fires is almost always a series of issues. I don’t buy the battery deal at all.

[wood 11265]

7 hours ago, justhookit said:

I’m too lazy to look this up but the boat was fiberglass? Most dive/fish/cruise boats that size here in Texas are tin cans. This accident makes me sick. Something went really, really wrong (obviously)  but it’s a difficult pill for me to swallow that there isn’t some crew culpability. Ignoring what was said upthread about cg regs, there is no fucking way any boat that size has anyone checking anything unless they are coming off watch or just went to take a piss. You know fires, and boat fires probably go even faster.. fuck I know my guys would have been burned all over before they let us all die down below.  I’ve talked with them since this happened. You know better than me on fires, but boat sinking or fires is almost always a series of issues. I don’t buy the battery deal at all.

Yeah I dunno how much fiberglass there would be on that boat, if any ... and yeah, I agree there's almost always a series of problems that lead to something like this. I've focused on the crew in terms of their rescue attempts, not what they may or may have done/not done leading up to the fire. The rescue attempts imho seem  to have been appropriate given the little bit that we know. When they release the report some day, I'm sure it will be very interesting. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by wood

[RPM 26354]

5 hours ago, wood said:

I've focused on the crew in terms of their rescue attempts, not what they may or may have done/not done leading up to the fire. The rescue attempts imho seem  to have been appropriate given the little bit that we know.

Same here. I was very skeptical of the initial report with only the crew surviving. The NTSB initial report makes it clear there was no escape for the passengers. I've heard the dive company has already filed a lawsuit to limit liability. Not sure how that's going to work.

[ERhine 1907]

Same here. I was very skeptical of the initial report with only the crew surviving. The NTSB initial report makes it clear there was no escape for the passengers. I've heard the dive company has already filed a lawsuit to limit liability. Not sure how that's going to work.

The limitation action was filed yesterday.

The bigger problem for Plaintiffs is what I imagine is limited insurance available for the company.

[RPM 26354]

2 minutes ago, ERhine said:

 

The limitation action was filed yesterday.

The bigger problem for Plaintiffs is what I imagine is limited insurance available for the company.

 

You mean you can be held liable for over 30 deaths? How are you going to turn a profit that way?

[KaiserSoze 998]

On 9/7/2019 at 5:54 PM, RPM said:

You mean you can be held liable for over 30 deaths? How are you going to turn a profit that way?

Charge for the cremation service.

[AUS-97HORN 11823]

By a complete co-incidence (maybe not) ,   the USCG, just released new guidelines on how cell phone Camera & computer batteries should be charged on a boat......

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/09/12/coast-guard-warns-charging-phone-batteries-amid-california-boat-fire/2297964001/

 

Quote

Boat operators also should "reduce potential fire hazards and consider limiting the unsupervised charging of lithium-ion batteries and extensive use of power strips and extension cords," the bulletin said.

The batteries, found in millions of electronic devices around the world, charge and discharge by moving lithium particles between a negative and positive electrode. The particles are suspended in pressurized cells inside the batteries – filled with volatile, flammable chemicals. Incidents of rechargeable battery fires, however, are extremely rare.

"The intensity of the fire surprised people," Peter Goelz, former managing director of the National Transportation Safety Board, told USA TODAY. "If it was being fed by lithium batteries, that might explain it."

 

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by AUS-97HORN

[Murfdogg21 4425]

They should’ve stocked up on those new Samsung vases that put out fires. They might have been bulk discounted with the captain’s Galaxy x7 phone charger.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Murfdogg21

[wood 11265]

51 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

By a complete co-incidence (maybe not) ,   the USCG, just released new guidelines on how cell phone Camera & computer batteries should be charged on a boat......

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/09/12/coast-guard-warns-charging-phone-batteries-amid-california-boat-fire/2297964001/

 

Damn. That was quick.

There's been a lot of talk about the batteries themselves being the main concern with regard to the theories that charging started the fire ... but it could just be that the cause of the fire was related more to the use of power strips, extension cords, etc, to charge the batteries. A lot of current through those things, charging a lot of batteries, could easily start a fire just originating with the power strip/cord itself. Abuse/overuse of power strips & extension cords is one of the most commonly written up violations in fire inspections.

Edited September 12, 2019 by wood

[Updawg 2286]

The initial report says no crew were on watch, they were all asleep in their bunks

[Coelenterate Fuccboi 13119]

On 9/6/2019 at 3:09 AM, Casual Encounter said:

The requirement is for a roving watch  when overnight passengers are on board to  prevent this exact scenario. We’ll probably hear shortly that this requirement was not being met and all crew members were asleep.

 

27 minutes ago, Updawg said:

The initial report says no crew were on watch, they were all asleep in their bunks

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-09-12/all-conception-crew-members-were-sleeping-when-boat-fire-broke-out-ntsb-says%3f_amp=true

[smuggs 9353]

15 minutes ago, Casual Encounter said:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-09-12/all-conception-crew-members-were-sleeping-when-boat-fire-broke-out-ntsb-says%3f_amp=true

Reading this article - it's just fucking absurd that they sleep 34 (up to 45) people on this rig for 3 days. With all of their associated supplies/equipment. What a nightmare.

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

56 minutes ago, Updawg said:

The initial report says no crew were on watch, they were all asleep in their bunks

Rut Ro.

[LarryTT 26]

6 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Rut Ro.

yeah... not good... basic Captain knowledge for any size boat. I just don't get it.

[justhookit 4191]

45 minutes ago, Casual Encounter said:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-09-12/all-conception-crew-members-were-sleeping-when-boat-fire-broke-out-ntsb-says%3f_amp=true

And there you have it. I know you cited the regs regarding a “roving” watch and that article mentioned it too but on a boat that size with that small a crew nobody is doing that. But to have nobody awake at all even just sitting on the bridge or in the galley or even on deck is inexcusable. Holy shit.

[justhookit 4191]

26 minutes ago, smuggs said:

Reading this article - it's just fucking absurd that they sleep 34 (up to 45) people on this rig for 3 days. With all of their associated supplies/equipment. What a nightmare.

 

It’s common. There are boats that size everywhere doing 1, 2, even 3 nights offshore fishing, diving, whatever. Heck there are 3 boats that size here in Port A doing 48-60 hour offshore trips and those boats are going out up to 160 miles offshore.

[El Diablo 4232]

3 minutes ago, justhookit said:

And there you have it. I know you cited the regs regarding a “roving” watch and that article mentioned it too but on a boat that size with that small a crew nobody is doing that. But to have nobody awake at all even just sitting on the bridge or in the galley or even on deck is inexcusable. Holy shit.

Yep. Sit up on the bridge in the Captains chair and watch TV or play solitaire. But to have everyone asleep? Fuck them.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

18 hours ago, LarryTT said:

yeah... not good... basic Captain knowledge for any size boat. I just don't get it.

I grew up on the water, dangerous shit happens in the wink of an eye, and there's no where to go.  If I had a boat full of people I'd for damn sure have somebody awake at all times, and not just sitting on the bridge.  

I'd make sure people understood why their fee was a little higher.. what with having somebody awake at all times to monitor the boat and their personal safety.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Onboard 2.0

[RPM 26354]

At the bare minimum they should have had at least 1 on watch. I'd say they should have had 2, fire watch and engineering watch.

[ERhine 1907]

And there you have it. I know you cited the regs regarding a “roving” watch and that article mentioned it too but on a boat that size with that small a crew nobody is doing that. But to have nobody awake at all even just sitting on the bridge or in the galley or even on deck is inexcusable. Holy shit.

And if the crew was following the company’s watch schedule, then the Plaintiffs have a good argument to defeat the limitation action.

[justhookit 4191]

6 hours ago, RPM said:

At the bare minimum they should have had at least 1 on watch. I'd say they should have had 2, fire watch and engineering watch.

Yes of course they should have one, it’s not a fire watch or engineering watch though, it’s just someone who is actually awake. LOL @ engineering watch and yes this isn’t a joking matter. This kind of boat has twin 500ish engines likely CATS or old Detroit’s. And a generator.  It’s a captain, 1 or 2 dive masters, and 3 or 4 deckhands that also can cook in the galley. They should (at least in Texas) also have a 2nd captain for an overnight. It would probably be someone like me who has no clue what to do in an emergency other than to try to wake the captain and others.

again though, on that size boat with that size crew someone should be awake, but they aren’t walking around. They (should be) sitting somewhere reading or watching tv. I’m not picking on this particular incident at all. It’s what EVERYONE does. They fucked up not having someone awake and whether that was a captain that let his watch go to shit on probably multiple trips, or someone that should have been awake I’m not sure we will ever know. And depending on how it went down I can’t say that anything they did or didn’t do would have mattered.

[justhookit 4191]

20 minutes ago, ERhine said:

 

And if the crew was following the company’s watch schedule, then the Plaintiffs have a good argument to defeat the limitation action.

 

90% sure there was no watch schedule. And if there was it wasn’t adhered to - other than maybe someone should have been fucking awake. This accident is tragic. It’s likely coming down to he said/ she said. Besides the insurance coverage won’t ever come close to the damages no matter what happened. I’m actually shocked they got them on record already admitting they were all asleep.

[TwiceHorn 31536]

7 hours ago, justhookit said:

It’s common. There are boats that size everywhere doing 1, 2, even 3 nights offshore fishing, diving, whatever. Heck there are 3 boats that size here in Port A doing 48-60 hour offshore trips and those boats are going out up to 160 miles offshore.

But with 35-45 non-crew passengers?  That seems insane.

[conVINCEd 21469]

Stacked three-high in bunks with 35 other humans in the belly of a 70 ft boat is not my idea of a fun vacation.  Is this a common thing?   I don’t dive, but the image I have in my head of an offshore, multi-day dive trip is 8-10 divers max and 2-3 crew.

[justhookit 4191]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

But with 35-45 non-crew passengers?  That seems insane.

Yes. At least here though you would be talking about 20-30 people on overnight trips. It’s not insane. This particular incident was, though, if the facts are right.

I’m not sure what to tell the people that are doubting that this situation is common. You’re 3 or 4 other crew members besides the 2nd captain are typically min. wage dudes looking to move up in the fishing or boating world. They are there to collect a pay check, get sea hours, and hopefully they aren’t drunk or high before or during the trip.

[justhookit 4191]

2 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Stacked three-high in bunks with 35 other humans in the belly of a 70 ft boat is not my idea of a fun vacation.  Is this a common thing?   I don’t dive, but the image I have in my head of an offshore, multi-day dive trip is 8-10 divers max and 2-3 crew.

You aren’t wrong. But that is what makes it cheap.

Edited September 13, 2019 by justhookit

[Updawg 2286]

There should have been one guy on watch just to keep an eye on alarms, dragging anchor, other boats etc. But he'd be in the wheelhouse trying to stay awake from boredom and by the time this broke out who knows if he would have caught it in time to help. Terrible accident.

[justhookit 4191]

19 minutes ago, Updawg said:

There should have been one guy on watch just to keep an eye on alarms, dragging anchor, other boats etc. But he'd be in the wheelhouse trying to stay awake from boredom and by the time this broke out who knows if he would have caught it in time to help. Terrible accident.

Exactly. I’m using too many words to say the same thing.

[Yarbr 123]

The boat was 20 yards off the shore so I somewhat understand how the crew got lazy. 

Did a 60 hour tuna trip out of San Diego that had this set up with 20, and there were always at least 2 awake. After trolling and catching for long ass hours straight those bunks are extremely comfortable. RIP, shitty way to go.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Yarbr

[RPM 26354]

1 hour ago, justhookit said:

LOL @ engineering watch and yes this isn’t a joking matter. This kind of boat has twin 500ish engines likely CATS or old Detroit’s. And a generator.

I'm going from my time in the Coast Guard. Deck & Engineering departments both stood watch. Deck watch was everything outside of engineering. Engineering was responsible for all engineering spaces. We both walked watches hourly and changed duty depending on the watch schedule. Ships are shockingly easy to catch on fire or flood. As this fire proved, you have very little time to react and lives are at stake.

[justhookit 4191]

2 minutes ago, RPM said:

I'm going from my time in the Coast Guard. Deck & Engineering departments both stood watch. Deck watch was everything outside of engineering. Engineering was responsible for all engineering spaces. We both walked watches hourly and changed duty depending on the watch schedule. Ships are shockingly easy to catch on fire or flood. As this fire proved, you have very little time to react and lives are at stake.

Don’t disagree with anything you said. These boats just don’t work that way.

This sucks and I promise you it’s made a bunch of people rethink what they are doing. Hell it’s scared the hell out of me and like I think I’ve mentioned upthread I’ve already talked to my captain and mate about it.

[justhookit 4191]

12 minutes ago, Yarbr said:

The boat was 20 yards off the shore so I somewhat understand how the crew got lazy. 

Did a 60 hour tuna trip out of San Diego that had this set up with 20, and there were always at least 2 awake. After trolling and catching for long ass hours straight those bunks are extremely comfortable. RIP, shitty way to go.

Not to place blame anywhere but fishing boats are always going to be kind of a different deal. You will always have crew awake because you are either traveling or fishing. At least here in Texas. I just can’t imagine they all just went to sleep. Either the captain got lax on his trips or somebody went to sleep when they shouldn’t have. 

If you can’t tell I’m sick about this

[ERhine 1907]

8 hours ago, justhookit said:

90% sure there was no watch schedule. And if there was it wasn’t adhered to - other than maybe someone should have been fucking awake. This accident is tragic. It’s likely coming down to he said/ she said. Besides the insurance coverage won’t ever come close to the damages no matter what happened. I’m actually shocked they got them on record already admitting they were all asleep.

If there is no watch schedule at all, then that is just as bad from a knowledge perspective.  There's a number of routes to defeating limitation.  At the end of the day though insurance coverage is going to be the real cap on claims.  

[TwiceHorn 31536]

11 minutes ago, ERhine said:

If there is no watch schedule at all, then that is just as bad from a knowledge perspective.  There's a number of routes to defeating limitation.  At the end of the day though insurance coverage is going to be the real cap on claims.  

So, even if a limitation action is successful from an owner's perspective, insurance still covers?

 

[ERhine 1907]

The insurance company is who is behind the limitation action.  

[El Diablo 4232]

7 hours ago, RPM said:

I'm going from my time in the Coast Guard. Deck & Engineering departments both stood watch. Deck watch was everything outside of engineering. Engineering was responsible for all engineering spaces. We both walked watches hourly and changed duty depending on the watch schedule. Ships are shockingly easy to catch on fire or flood. As this fire proved, you have very little time to react and lives are at stake.

I was in the Navy, worked offshore supply boats and have been on offshore fishing boats. Navy/CG stand regular watches. Supply boats will have a guy on the bridge, there's only one engineer onboard so he works as needed tending to his duties as will the deck crew (usually 2 ordinary seamen or 1 AB (able bodied)  and an ordinary). Fishing boats are pretty similar but in all three cases there's always someone assigned to be awake. 

With supply boats you kind of have to do your deck work on the schedule of the rig. Maybe you tie up and they're not ready to lift the pipe or pump mud right then so you're just hanging out, everything's chill. Night time comes and Capt says y'all go to bed, I'm going to sit up on the bridge. Then midnight rolls around and he wakes you up and tells you to go sit on the bridge. Some will want you to check the lines every hour that have you tied to the rig. Some will want to have lines checked in port when tied to a pier just because of rising and falling tides. But always someone awake, somewhere. That everyone was possibly asleep is just unfathomable to me.

As to the size of or conditions of the berthing compartments, the passengers aren't there to sleep and most don't care about those accommodations. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by El Diablo

[smuggs 9353]

8 hours ago, justhookit said:

I’m not sure what to tell the people that are doubting that this situation is common. 

I'm not doubting that it is common. It's just ridiculous from all standpoints. Hopefully some regulations come out of this nonsense that will prevent thirsty tour outfits from separating oblivious individuals from their safety and their money.

[El Diablo 4232]

31 minutes ago, smuggs said:

I'm not doubting that it is common. It's just ridiculous from all standpoints. Hopefully some regulations come out of this nonsense that will prevent thirsty tour outfits from separating oblivious individuals from their safety and their money.

I think that there's a Coast Guard reg requiring a watch already. People drink and drive, there's laws against that already. I'm not sure what you want to regulate.

[wood 11265]

The whole thing is just such a tragedy and a real mess going forward, no doubt. Hopefully at least some good can come from it as it hopefully opens some eyes and changes industry standards.