So, our defense is garbage

[Burt Macklin 19053]

11 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

A couple of things. I completely agree with the notion that we just need to force offenses to execute at a high level for extended periods of time to score, and just try to keep them under 30. Our offense will score on all comers, and should possibly be better next year.

But....that’s really not Orlando’s nature. And I’m not sure he can help himself. 

With regard to the Lightening package you misunderstand me.  It’s not the scheme that I was referring to. We had an epiphany with Hall at Joker, and suddenly our defense was a total bitch for everyone for the remainder of the year.  But, we definitely didn’t identify that during fall practice. It’s what I mean by falling into it. 

Up to that point, and for much of 2018 we were pretty average.

I agree it's not Orlando's nature, but I think he can coach it. He's done it some during his time here. The 2017 OSU game where we held Mason Rudolph, James Washington, Justice HIll and Co. to 10 points in regulation with a horrible offense comes to mind. We defended the run with 5, gave help towards Washington and limited big plays.  Orlando wasn't calling insane blitzes all game in that one.

This is where Herman needs to step in and get Orlando to do this for this year while we don't have the right personnel for what he wants to do. If Orlando refuses/can't do it, then we'll suck horribly this year and he should go, but I have a hard time believing that would happen. 

I can't tell if you're trying to argue the Lightning package was a one-year fluke and that's what much of Orlando's success is due to, but if so, I'm not on board with that. We didn't need that package for any of our first 4 games because those teams weren't air raid spreads, and our defense was extremely good at USC and at ISU in 2017 before we started using it.   2018 had a lot of talent issues and presents the same question as LSU this year does for me.

7 minutes ago, NowThis said:

he was HC for many years. 

He always had terrible defenses. I dont know why you'd want him consulting for the defense other than tendency spotting from an offensive coach's perspective.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Burt Macklin

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

I’m saying more than anything that Hall’s use in the Lightening package is evidence that TO doesn’t identify his best defensive units well, that the best 11 philosophy doesn’t necessarily yield the best defense, and that outside of that 8 or 9 game stretch Orlando's returns have been pretty tepid in Austin. TO would be loathed if not for that personnel revelation. 

[NowThis 931]

i don't see why not give Greg Robinson $300k/yr just to watch game video and email his thoughts back to staff. 

[Sock Drawer 214]

1 hour ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Ya know...maybe. 

He had one really good game. I’ll buy in if he approximates 80% of that production on a game by game basis for the remainder of the season.  But frankly, slow down on that stuff. He’s been an entirely average QB before Saturday night. Now suddenly he’s a Heisman contender and Sunday player? Get back to me in 6 weeks on that. 

Taysom Hill is in the League . . .

[Dbeasy 15119]

Ossai and McCulloch have done a pretty decent job both games from what I’ve seen. They get to their spots and move with defenders in their zone pretty well. 

This has been encouraging for sure. I thought McCullough would be too slow. With that said, I just don’t like the 3 down lineman defense with the 4th hybrid player. I realize many of the top teams play this defense, but here is my rationale.

You must get pressure on the QB or you are dead. Every time you try to bring pressure from various blitzes or unusual directions you open yourself up to big plays offensively. Of course you also can get the big defensive play too, which is a positive.

I much prefer the idea of the four man front constantly putting pressure on the QB. A 4th hybrid is too small to consistently get past a big ol’ OT, and too slow to stay with slot receivers zipping around. I want big strong fast guys on the ends who can beat their man via strength and speed to get to the QB. Then use blitzes to add additional
pressure.

The 3-8 defense was a gimmick that was great but in general is a disaster. You let a QB have five seconds with no one in his face and you are dead. Touchdown dead. Teams have figured out how to scheme against it.

[NowThis 931]

also, jam the WRs at the LOS

[TreatyOak 16433]

[Dahobbs 17703]

14 minutes ago, NowThis said:

also, jam the WRs at the LOS

We tried that. Our corners were terrible at it. 

[HtownHorn 14793]

29 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

 

This has been encouraging for sure. I thought McCullough would be too slow. With that said, I just don’t like the 3 down lineman defense with the 4th hybrid player. I realize many of the top teams play this defense, but here is my rationale.

You must get pressure on the QB or you are dead. Every time you try to bring pressure from various blitzes or unusual directions you open yourself up to big plays offensively. Of course you also can get the big defensive play too, which is a positive.

I much prefer the idea of the four man front constantly putting pressure on the QB. A 4th hybrid is too small to consistently get past a big ol’ OT, and too slow to stay with slot receivers zipping around. I want big strong fast guys on the ends who can beat their man via strength and speed to get to the QB. Then use blitzes to add additional
pressure.

The 3-8 defense was a gimmick that was great but in general is a disaster. You let a QB have five seconds with no one in his face and you are dead. Touchdown dead. Teams have figured out how to scheme against it.
 

 

It's really not a 3-8, it's a 1-2-8, and it was the best personnel grouping for Texas against LSU. But I agree, we need a 4-7 or 4-1-6 look. I just don't like blitzing from the middle of the field because it leaves giant throwing windows for QBs too often.

[DixonHur 11395]

35 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

It's really not a 3-8, it's a 1-2-8, and it was the best personnel grouping for Texas against LSU. But I agree, we need a 4-7 or 4-1-6 look. I just don't like blitzing from the middle of the field because it leaves giant throwing windows for QBs too often.

Here. Here.  Especially with our LB's / S's propensity to run directly into contact with the OL

Edited September 10, 2019 by DixonHur

[pacman 7374]

17 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Here. Here.  Especially with our LB's / S's propensity to run directly into contact with the OL

They do tend to look for contact more than trying to escape it, almost like they are all trying to occupy a blocker for some unknown blitzer to run free. That is certainly part of it but I think we also have to admit LSU oline pass blocked fairly well on the night. They played better than most here predicted.

Chaisson's sack is a pretty good comparison. He stunted from outside the tackle to the center. We failed to pick it up because Shack had focused too far on helping the right guard, almost enitrely turning his shoulders to the guard.. Conversely, we had Foster stunt a similar distance, from left guard to right guard. Despite not being covered, and little to do, the right guard stayed square and caught Foster head up when he showed up.

Still, we did have 4 sacks which should be considered a good night. Unfortunately, we were feast or famine with a heavy lean to famine on the night. Either we got a sack, or no pressure at all. Some timing, but most coaching and design.

Edited September 10, 2019 by pacman

[pacman 7374]

Orlando's defenses, in reverse order..

LSU: 471yds -- 45 points

OU: 508 -- 39

TxTech: 595 --34

W.Va: 578 -- 42

OsU: 502 -- 38

OU: 532 -- 45

avg. 531 -- 40.5

These offenses aren't going away.

More alarming, Orlando doesn't appear to have any adjustment whatsoever. As many pointed out before the game, LSU isn't unique in the Big 12 like they are in the SEC.

Yet, their last three drives were all 6 plays for 75 yards at an average of 2 minutes. That's a walk in the park.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, Sock Drawer said:

Taysom Hill is in the League . . .

The only things that kept Taysom Hill from being really good in college were his paper mache knees.  He’s a helluva athlete even now. 

[ClubWhatever 12159]

25 minutes ago, pacman said:

Orlando's defenses, in reverse order..

LSU: 471yds -- 45 points

OU: 508 -- 39

TxTech: 595 --34

W.Va: 578 -- 42

OsU: 502 -- 38

OU: 532 -- 45

avg. 531 -- 40.5

These offenses aren't going away.

More alarming, Orlando doesn't appear to have any adjustment whatsoever. As many pointed out before the game, LSU isn't unique in the Big 12 like they are in the SEC.

Yet, their last three drives were all 6 plays for 75 yards at an average of 2 minutes. That's a walk in the park.

You’re off by about 100 on the LSU yards.  This invalidates your thesis 

[Dahobbs 17703]

38 minutes ago, pacman said:

Orlando's defenses, in reverse order..

LSU: 471yds -- 45 points

OU: 508 -- 39

TxTech: 595 --34

W.Va: 578 -- 42

OsU: 502 -- 38

OU: 532 -- 45

avg. 531 -- 40.5

These offenses aren't going away.

More alarming, Orlando doesn't appear to have any adjustment whatsoever. As many pointed out before the game, LSU isn't unique in the Big 12 like they are in the SEC.

Yet, their last three drives were all 6 plays for 75 yards at an average of 2 minutes. That's a walk in the park.

But then again, see LSU's defense versus our offense. These offenses aren't going away. And even the very best defenses aren't stopping them. This isn't an Orlando specific problem. That being said, it is one thing to give up yards and points to an offense that shows an ability to execute extended drives, it is quite another to give up multiple 6 play or less drive of over 50 yards. The latter is more Orlando specific and needs to be addressed asap. 

[Goodman 3273]

Let Naivar call the game. TO can go prove he can recruit and teach.

[Slacks 6880]

Taysom Hill is in the League . . .

and makes plays...

[Bruh Man 3160]

 

[Gravy Train 974]

44 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

But then again, see LSU's defense versus our offense. These offenses aren't going away. And even the very best defenses aren't stopping them. This isn't an Orlando specific problem. That being said, it is one thing to give up yards and points to an offense that shows an ability to execute extended drives, it is quite another to give up multiple 6 play or less drive of over 50 yards. The latter is more Orlando specific and needs to be addressed asap. 

What did Army do to hold OUsux to 28 and go to OT in Norman?   Did they just triple-option OU to death to dominate ToP?  They also limited UH to 14 in their bowl game.

[Burt Macklin 19053]

29 minutes ago, Bruh Man said:

 

Yeah. LBs drops in Zone are poor and give the QB way too big of a gap in front of the safeties. 

Also, on that last play, look at how slow Thompson is to get into his backpedal. He lets the WR eat up most of his cushion before he’s even moved. That’s pointless and completely unacceptable, especially when in man with only 1 high safety behind you.

Thompson constantly makes mental mistakes like this that cost him. That last TD against WVU last year was a go against Thompson in the slot with Sterns as the 1 high and Thompson let his man get way behind him with like 30 seconds left in the game. He’s just not thinking out there.

[Slacks 6880]

2 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

Yeah. LBs drops in Zone are poor and give the QB way too big of a gap in front of the safeties. 

Also, on that last play, look at how slow Thompson is to get into his backpedal. He lets the WR eat up most of his cushion before he’s even moved. That’s pointless and completely unacceptable, especially when in man with only 1 high safety behind you.

Thompson constantly makes mental mistakes like this that cost him. That last TD against WVU last year was a go against Thompson in the slot with Sterns as the 1 high and Thompson let his man get way behind him with like 30 seconds left in the game. He’s just not thinking out there.

actually, he is probably thinking... instead of playing. 

[HtownHorn 14793]

4 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

Yeah. LBs drops in Zone are poor and give the QB way too big of a gap in front of the safeties. 

Also, on that last play, look at how slow Thompson is to get into his backpedal. He lets the WR eat up most of his cushion before he’s even moved. That’s pointless and completely unacceptable, especially when in man with only 1 high safety behind you.

Thompson constantly makes mental mistakes like this that cost him. That last TD against WVU last year was a go against Thompson in the slot with Sterns as the 1 high and Thompson let his man get way behind him with like 30 seconds left in the game. He’s just not thinking out there.

Do we not teach our LBs and CBs to knock WRs off their routes? McCulloch likely prevents that 1st TD if just puts a shoulder into the WR as he goes past him.

[Yesh 932]

3 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

Do we not teach our LBs and CBs to knock WRs off their routes? McCulloch likely prevents that 1st TD if just puts a shoulder into the WR as he goes past him.

Especially in a trips set.  Put a guy on the LOS against one of the three so they don't all get a free release to flood the field.  Also helps to disrupt if it is a WR screen.

[Burt Macklin 19053]

13 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

Do we not teach our LBs and CBs to knock WRs off their routes? McCulloch likely prevents that 1st TD if just puts a shoulder into the WR as he goes past him.

Had that thought on the TD throw. If he holds him up a second, the safety has time to get there.

16 minutes ago, Snacks said:

actually, he is probably thinking... instead of playing. 

I get you’re trying to take a general dig at the defense/Orlando, but this doesn’t make any sense. What does he have to think about? He has no pre snap movement and is just in man. 

[Bruh Man 3160]

1 hour ago, Burt Macklin said:

Yeah. LBs drops in Zone are poor and give the QB way too big of a gap in front of the safeties. 

Also, on that last play, look at how slow Thompson is to get into his backpedal. He lets the WR eat up most of his cushion before he’s even moved. That’s pointless and completely unacceptable, especially when in man with only 1 high safety behind you.

Thompson constantly makes mental mistakes like this that cost him. That last TD against WVU last year was a go against Thompson in the slot with Sterns as the 1 high and Thompson let his man get way behind him with like 30 seconds left in the game. He’s just not thinking out there.

After he showed some promise his freshman year, I thought Thompson would be a stud by now. 

If I'm Herman, I'm not only questioning Orlando, I'm questioning the position coaches as well. If you told me two years ago in 2019 we'd have Brandon Jones, Caden Sterns, BJ Foster, Demarvion Overshown, Josh Thompson, Anthony Cook & Jalen Green all in our secondary I'd tell you we'd probably have one of the best defenses in the country. Instead we're a freaking joke. Seriously, this is an ultra-talented unit that is grossly underachieving. 

[Burt Macklin 19053]

2 minutes ago, Bruh Man said:

After he showed some promise his freshman year, I thought Thompson would be a stud by now. 

If I'm Herman, I'm not only questioning Orlando, I'm questioning the position coaches as well. If you told me two years ago in 2019 we'd have Brandon Jones, Caden Sterns, BJ Foster, Demarvion Overshown, Josh Thompson, Anthony Cook & Jalen Green all in our secondary I'd tell you we'd probably have one of the best defenses in the country. Instead we're a freaking joke. Seriously, this is an ultra-talented unit that is grossly underachieving. 

All those guys except one are also second years playing against the most complex and difficult offenses the sport has ever seen.  Not all guys pan out, some take longer than their second ever start to pan out.

Maybe calm down a bit.

[Dahobbs 17703]

1 hour ago, Gravy Train said:

What did Army do to hold OUsux to 28 and go to OT in Norman?   Did they just triple-option OU to death to dominate ToP?  They also limited UH to 14 in their bowl game.

That is exactly they did. 

[Bruh Man 3160]

1 hour ago, Burt Macklin said:

All those guys except one are also second years playing against the most complex and difficult offenses the sport has ever seen.  Not all guys pan out, some take longer than their second ever start to pan out.

Maybe calm down a bit.

Chris Brown & Brandon Jones are vets. Thompson & BJ played a lot last year. Caden played a lot last year. Boyce & Thompson have been here for nearly 3 years. It's ok to expect competency from this group. 

[NowThis 931]

Orlando plays Prevent Defense the whole game

[GTX Horn 1710]

What did Army do to hold OUsux to 28 and go to OT in Norman?   Did they just triple-option OU to death to dominate ToP?  They also limited UH to 14 in their bowl game.

Army had almost 45 minutes ToP against OU if I remember correctly.

[JBJ 3668]

9 hours ago, NowThis said:

the cushion is too soft and big.  Can't Fedora fix this??????? 

 

9 hours ago, NowThis said:

also, jam the WRs at the LOS

 

1 hour ago, NowThis said:

Orlando plays Prevent Defense the whole game

Your thought remains equally dumb no matter how many different ways you post it.

Edited September 11, 2019 by JBJ

[Mason Ramsey 3388]

3 hours ago, Bruh Man said:

Chris Brown & Brandon Jones are vets. Thompson & BJ played a lot last year. Caden played a lot last year. Boyce & Thompson have been here for nearly 3 years. It's ok to expect competency from this group. 

From what I have seen, Brown has been pretty damn good this year. He is one of the few that seems to play naturally and let his instincts take over. He always seems to be around the ball.

[Bozo_Casanova 26580]

 

I hope we aren’t moving into an age of college football where the defenses simply can’t stop a well-executed spread/air raid offense with a solid QB, WR’s and OL. It would turn all the games into professional indoor football like games, with 68-67 scores. That would suck.

I’ve heard this before, with the run and shoot. Eventually it will get figured out and then the Power I or equivalent will to dominance, until that gets figured out, etc.

I don’t think football will ever get to a terminally dominant style on offense or defense.

[Fozzz 152]

lol the most "complex" offenses the sport has ever seen.  

[S11 16]

7 hours ago, GTX Horn said:

Army had almost 45 minutes ToP against OU if I remember correctly.

Yeah OU only had 8 possessions including OT.   So only 2/3 of a typical game’s worth.

Add 4 drives and the 3.5 points per drive Army gave up and it’s a typical 42 Point day for OU.

[Laga4 1270]

11 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

All those guys except one are also second years playing against the most complex and difficult offenses the sport has ever seen.  Not all guys pan out, some take longer than their second ever start to pan out.

Maybe calm down a bit.

I thought run & shoot,  air raid,  spread type offenses were supposed to simplify things and that is why they were effective.  

[Bozo_Casanova 26580]

I thought run & shoot,  air raid,  spread type offenses were supposed to simplify things and that is why they were effective.  

Easy to teach, complex and dynamic from the defensive POV.

[sith_horn 2407]

2 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Easy to teach, complex and dynamic from the defensive POV.

Especially when CBs don't know what they're supposed to do other than passively follow WRs.

[Fozzz 152]

12 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Easy to teach, complex and dynamic from the defensive POV.

I think the trend has been generally to simplify things and to focus on creating a numbers advantage via horizontal/vertical stretching of the field (inverted veer being an obvious example) and/or placing individual players into an assignment conflict (the idea behind RPOs).  Doing those things requires a minimal amount of complexity in terms of number of formations and concepts that are included in the offense, which makes it easier to run them at the more rapid pace that has become common.  

[elguapo 4586]

What's going on with Sterns? Dude hasn't looked the same since his injury last season. He doesn't look hurt though just not as instinctual and a step or 2 away from being in position to make the play.

[Burt Macklin 19053]

2 hours ago, Laga4 said:

I thought run & shoot,  air raid,  spread type offenses were supposed to simplify things and that is why they were effective.  

For the offense, not the defense. 

[Fozzz 152]

The offense Harsin ran here is more complex than anything you will see in the Big 12 today.  

[NowThis 931]

52 minutes ago, elguapo said:

What's going on with Sterns? Dude hasn't looked the same since his injury last season. He doesn't look hurt though just not as instinctual and a step or 2 away from being in position to make the play.

noticed the same. His burst isn't there. Plus he got stiffarmed on the 3rd and 17, not a good look for an elite DB

[pacman 7374]

11 hours ago, NowThis said:

Orlando plays Prevent Defense the whole game

Orlando's DBs play like the offense is running a hail mary while his linebackers sit and guard the non-existent two yard drag route.

Then, the fans yell at the CBs for not covering a 50yd by 30 yd area with no help from any direction.

Edited September 11, 2019 by pacman

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

19 minutes ago, NowThis said:

noticed the same. His burst isn't there. Plus he got stiffarmed on the 3rd and 17, not a good look for an elite DB

High ankle sprain in fall practice if I recall. He’s not all the way back. 

Actually , that’s a peeve of mine where coaches at all schools will play their clearly hobbled stars over  what is at least in our case very capable back ups. Part of me says that the backups are that far off the starter’s standards, and part of me says that many coaches operate in a scared as F mode. (Insert Mack photo here)

Edited September 11, 2019 by Bobby_Batronic

[DanTheHorn 4969]

All these additional consultant suggestions all over this thread. There is a saying: "To many cooks in the kitchen", it exists for a reason. I just think Herman and Orlando need to sit down and have a frank discussion as to whether the better talent really opens up so many more doors to trying to be exotic or whether they just get back to basics and beat people with talent that executes well.

[Dahobbs 17703]

23 minutes ago, DanTheHorn said:

All these additional consultant suggestions all over this thread. There is a saying: "To many cooks in the kitchen", it exists for a reason. I just think Herman and Orlando need to sit down and have a frank discussion as to whether the better talent really opens up so many more doors to trying to be exotic or whether they just get back to basics and beat people with talent that executes well.

My thought is that maybe Herman and Orlando need to talk about keeping the defense fairly simply the first few games of the season, focusing on the fundamentals and overall defensive philosophy. The idea would be the players get the majority of their early game experience focusing on just playing their position, and that over the course of the season we slowly add in all the complexity that Orlando loves. That should give us a more fundamentally solid defense early, with an increasing disruptive and dangerous defense as the season progresses. We know Orlando's schemes can work, but it may just be too much to ask for college players early in a season. Basically, we sacrifice the possibility of maximal defensive effectiveness early for a defense that has a lower maximum potential, but a much narrower and more predictable effectiveness band. 

[Hard Times 302]

16 hours ago, Bruh Man said:

 

Hey Orlando, when has a 3 man rush ever got pressure on the QB? Answer: Unless those 3 are JJ Watt, Nadamukong Suh and Lawrence Taylor it ain't gonna happen.

[6th Street 6508]

Greg Robinson could fix this shit show in less than a week. 

[bschoolprof 6273]

Maybe Orlando and Herman just need to read this thread.