3rd Democratic Debate - Houston

[bad_teammate 13,226]

Just now, Dbeasy said:

I’m going to make a wild prediction. Warren will back-off Bernie’s Medicare for All plan, introduce her own that includes preserving a private insurance option, and sail her way to the nomination. She will still talk about the great potential benefits of M4A but will position her plan as a near-term solution.

How well has this worked for Pete, Beto, and Kamala?

[Js1 85,651]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

How well has this worked for Pete, Beto, and Kamala?

The Hugos will give her a pass for her "pragmatism" and "general election strategy" 

[triplehorn 2,664]

19 minutes ago, sachick said:

Financial Aid regulations have changed a lot the last few years. They've gotten a lot more strict on you having to follow your degree plan and only those on your degree plan to receive aid. You have to maintain a 2.0 and you have to successfully complete 67% of your credits. So you can't sign up for four classes and drop a couple or even one and fail another one. They also monitor degree progress. Not as easy to get FA to just live off of now.

That's an important shift, however there was a whopping a generational run-up before that that's hanging there on balance sheets.  I don't have run-up numbers off the top of my head. 

Also, for all those who feel kind of hopeless about paying off their debt who may not think it's worth it to begin to work harder for the same debt outcome, instead of a debt cancellation/reduction plan with the wave of a wand today, announce the plan as available to qualify for in the future if you demonstrate meeting some criteria for productivity and financial responsibility moving forward.  Incentivize debt saddled individuals to get it in gear then reward them for demonstrating some defined and sustained level productivity.

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by triplehorn

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

7 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Call it "sophisticated" if you want.  I think she knows that raising the taxes necessary to pay for her spending is not going to be popular.  Hence the dodge.

People would rather pay for health insurance executive’s private islands while they deny them coverage than pay one more nickel in taxes for guaranteed healthcare for everyone.  It’s so fucked up how brainwashed we are about taxes and healthcare.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

4 minutes ago, Js1 said:

The Hugos will give her a pass for her "pragmatism" and "general election strategy" 

Nope, she needs to stick to single payer/MFA.  I will not forgive her for a pivot on this because she’s already made it a moral issue for her in the campaign.

Also, the skeptics about her position on this need to accept yes for an answer from her on MFA.  

[bad_teammate 13,226]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Nope, she needs to stick to single payer/MFA.  I will not forgive her for a pivot on this because she’s already made it a moral issue for her in the campaign.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

6 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I wish she would do a better job of framing it as a moral issue.  There is little reason to bring money into a debate about doing the morally right thing, especially since we are already the wealthiest country on earth by far.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[henrygandorf 29,198]

1 hour ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Klobuchar - Seeing positive reviews from people. I don't get it. She does nothing for me. 

the cnn take on klobuchar was that she was more likable and engaging during her 6 minute sitdown in the postgame than she was throughout the debate.

when they went back to the panel, they were all like, "man, where was all that during the debate, those were her best moments of the night."

i think she's achieved about as much as could possibly expected from her, especially in a deep and talented field like this.  her campaign is moderate, honest, and over.

[Js1 85,651]

2 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

the cnn take on klobuchar was that she was more likable and engaging during her 6 minute sitdown in the postgame than she was throughout the debate.

when they went back to the panel, they were all like, "man, where was all that during the debate, those were her best moments of the night."

i think she's achieved about as much as could possibly expected from her, especially in a deep and talented field like this.  her campaign is moderate, honest, and over.

What's her play? 

It's certainly not to be Joe's VP - that ticket would be B.O.R.I.N.G and uninspiring.

Bernie's Veep?  Moderate Midwest female, 20 years younger, paired with progressive old guy from the Northeast.   

Edited September 13, 2019 by Js1

[elfenix 34,365]

1 hour ago, Fozzz said:

 

Wonder how much student loan debt Felicity Huffman's Filliam H. Muffman's kid accrued. lmao!

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

9 minutes ago, Js1 said:

What's her play? 

Pray Biden drops out.  That’s it, that’s her only play. 

[6th Street 6,509]

43 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Nope, she needs to stick to single payer/MFA.  I will not forgive her for a pivot on this because she’s already made it a moral issue for her in the campaign.

Also, the skeptics about her position on this need to accept yes for an answer from her on MFA.  

If Warren changed her stance on MFA and student loan forgiveness she could win against Trump. The majority of voters do not support the general idea of paying higher taxes and abandoning their private healthcare plan. Also student loan forgiveness does nothing to help most low income or rural voters. 

[henrygandorf 29,198]

12 minutes ago, Js1 said:

What's her play? 

It's certainly not to be Joe's VP - that ticket would be B.O.R.I.N.G and uninspiring.

Bernie's Veep?  Moderate Midwest female, 20 years younger, paired with progressive old guy from the Northeast.   

her play is to win the nomination.  she's not going to.  she's probably no higher than 8th in polling/most people's personal lists.  there are a couple hypothetical vp pairings for her, but i think better options are elsewhere.

as for president, there just isn't a lane for her.  more progressive candidates are heavyweights and she can't hang with them even for voters who are more aligned with her policy.  and the more moderate candidates are either better or more well known.

i think she's likable enough.  i don't have to dislike someone to say they don't belong in this field.  minnesota is a blue state, but not by a lot.  she can still serve a purpose in the bigger picture.  i also think she's the type to stump hard for whomever gets the nomination, and i think she's very popular in her region.

[bad_teammate 13,226]

Just now, 6th Street said:

If Warren changed her stance on MFA and student loan forgiveness she could win against Trump. The majority of voters do not support the general idea of paying higher taxes and abandoning their private healthcare plan. Also student loan forgiveness does nothing to help most low income or rural voters. 

Thank you for this garbage input and terrible punditry. May god have mercy on your soul.

[elfenix 34,365]

i'm still trying to figure out who these people are that like their private healthcare plan.  there was some commercial right after the debate with a 20something explaining how much he liked his insurance.  i call horseshit on that, no one has ever said that.  and then a cowboy talking about bureaucrats making decisions, as if that isn't exactly what insurance does (and which medicare is prohibited from doing!). 

humana can go fuck itself. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by elfenix

[tantric superman 4,668]

I still think on paper Booker would be formidable.  The fact that he's from New Jersey is the only real problem.  Smart as fuck, Rhodes scholar, former mayor of big problematic city.  Great backstory -- was in the shit in Newark.

Basically, Obama with a real work resume.

He gets all college educated folks who ran the Republicans off in 2016.  He's got as good a shot at motivating the African American vote as any.  Beto and Castro can help him get the Hispanic vote. 

And I do think he's open minded enough to push some of the progressive policies without overselling them. 

Put him together with a white guy from the midwest or west and it's a good ticket that can still get the youth's out to vote.  

Yeah, he's got crazy eyes but Trump has crazy hair, and I think Booker would bully the fuck out of Trump in a debate.

Edited September 13, 2019 by tantric superman

[henrygandorf 29,198]

2 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

If Warren changed her stance on MFA and student loan forgiveness she could win against Trump. The majority of voters do not support the general idea of paying higher taxes and abandoning their private healthcare plan. Also student loan forgiveness does nothing to help most low income or rural voters. 

well, yeah.  nobody supports the isolated idea of "paying higher taxes." (cue "convince me to vote democrat" meme tweet)

the issue with these types of statements is that it shows that people still don't understand the policy proposals.  we've been discussing that the messaging/messengers have had issues clarifying how everything will work.  every debate inches us closer, but then the waters are muddied by the right and certain elements in the media, not to mention the dems that oppose a full m4a situation.

right now we have 10+ people essentially arguing on the same side of the issue.  there's issue, and there's policy.  the issue is "too many people are uninsured/health coverage costs are out of control".  everyone knows this.  then there's how to fix it.  as the field narrows, the message will become clearer.

we're 5 months til iowa and 14 months til the general.  we got time.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

5 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

If Warren changed her stance on MFA and student loan forgiveness she could win against Trump. The majority of voters do not support the general idea of paying higher taxes and abandoning their private healthcare plan. Also student loan forgiveness does nothing to help most low income or rural voters. 

The voters will buy anything a good salesperson will sell them.  This has been the GOP/Trump strategy for decades.  Democrats don’t sell their ideas well.  However, that’s the competitive advantage Warren has, she’s actually a phenomenal salesperson as far as explaining things and connecting on a personal level.  She makes people want to buy whatever she’s selling. 

[6th Street 6,509]

2 minutes ago, elfenix said:

i'm still trying to figure out who these people are that like their private healthcare plan.  humana can go fuck itself. 

Only 41% of those polled support MFA replacing private insurance vs 70% supporting MFA for those who choose it + private insurance. So Bernie and Warren are on the wrong side of this issue. 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/medicare-for-all-isnt-that-popular-even-among-democrats/

 

 

[elfenix 34,365]

Just now, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The voters will buy anything a good salesperson will sell them.  This has been the GOP/Trump strategy for decades.  Democrats don’t sell their ideas well.  However, that’s the competitive advantage Warren has, she’s actually a phenomenal salesperson as far as explaining things and connecting on a personal level.  She makes people want to buy whatever she’s selling. 

the public GOP platform consists entirely of slogans and platitudes, which are much easier to sell. 

[elfenix 34,365]

Just now, 6th Street said:

Only 41% of those polled support MFA replacing private insurance vs 70% supporting MFA for those who choose it + private insurance. So Bernie and Warren are on the wrong side of this issue. 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/medicare-for-all-isnt-that-popular-even-among-democrats/

 

 

i know what the polling says, i'm wondering who these people are.

[DaysOff 7,988]

jesus christ altuve
 
edit: wrong thread

Just rereading this thread for the lulz.

[6th Street 6,509]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The voters will buy anything a good salesperson will sell them.  This has been the GOP/Trump strategy for decades.  Democrats don’t sell their ideas well.  However, that’s the competitive advantage Warren has, she’s actually a phenomenal salesperson as far as explaining things and connecting on a personal level.  She makes people want to buy whatever she’s selling. 

You will never be able to sell Joe Voter on higher taxes. It's a losing proposition 

[tantric superman 4,668]

3 minutes ago, elfenix said:

i know what the polling says, i'm wondering who these people are.

People who can afford health care premiums who and tentative about changing the system too rapidly. 

So about 70%.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

1 minute ago, elfenix said:

the public GOP platform consists entirely of slogans and platitudes, which are much easier to sell. 

“She has a plan for that”

“Yes we plan”

“nevertheless, she persisted”

“dream big, fight hard, win”

“I’m a Warren Democrat”

“The persistence”

“I am not afraid”

Warren has been playing the slogan catchphrase game better than anyone.  Along with all the wonky policy and retail politics.  

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

3 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

You will never be able to sell Joe Voter on higher taxes. It's a losing proposition 

Just say Mexico will pay for it.  If people bought that, they will buy anything. 

[bad_teammate 13,226]

Just say, "It will be cheaper and better" over and over and over and over and over and over.

[6th Street 6,509]

Just now, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Just say Mexico will pay for it.  If people bought that, they will buy anything. 

Lol seriously if Warren/Sanders win the nomination - Trump will just say they want to take away your healthcare and coast to victory with ease. He doesn't have that ammo against the more popular Biden plan which allows you to keep your private insurance.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

[henrygandorf 29,198]

8 minutes ago, elfenix said:

i know what the polling says, i'm wondering who these people are.

you've never met anyone who just doesn't like "change"?

[elfenix 34,365]

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

you've never met anyone who just doesn't like "change"?

Edited September 13, 2019 by elfenix

[6th Street 6,509]

At the same time, the public option is potentially a winning issue for Biden, and one that allows him to reinforce some of hiscore strengths. It offers greater continuity with the legacy of the Obama administration (since the public option is a more gradual change from Obamacare — not to mention, something Obamacare initially tried to include), and allows him to double down on his electability message, since it polls better than eliminating private insurance. That may be why Biden has gone on the offense against Medicare for All

[DixonHur 11,405]

6 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

You will never be able to sell Joe Voter on higher taxes. It's a losing proposition 

We don't need higher taxes (on the 99% anyway) we just need better prioritization of where those taxes go. 

[henrygandorf 29,198]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Just say, "It will be cheaper and better" over and over and over and over and over and over.

this is the type of stuff that needs to start.  without making this a poke at warren/bernie, i've wondered for a while why their answers haven't been simplified.

earlier someone said the dems are bad at selling their ideas.  i don't think that's exactly it.  i think the dems are under the (accurate) impression that their ideas are better, and if they just explain them, then people will come around.  this is a problem, especially in today's america.

when people act like a public option will mean all doctor's offices and medical centers will be torn down and replaced by military style govt hospitals on every corner, i would like to see bernie or whomever be like, "you won't even notice the difference."  when people hammer the m4a side on taxing the middle class, he should say, "your paycheck will stay the same because you're no longer paying into healthcare."

(i'm using bernie as an example, but it's really directed at everyone on that side).

if my wife gets $500 a month deducted for her health plan, and then under president sanders, that $500 is gone, but replaced by $400 in higher taxes (without even taking into acct the price of medicine, care, co-pay, etc), it's not that she'll like it or not like it, it's that she won't even fucking notice the difference.

dems all want to explain to people that things will be better.  this is because things actually would be better.  but ideas don't always win elections.  fear wins elections.  there needs to be stronger messaging on the "you won't notice the difference" aspect, because like it or not, people fear change.  this is not new.

i think the reason warren has been skirting the questions, is because she knows the media is trying to paint things in black and white (just like the raising hands question during the first debate).  once people hear "i'm getting kicked off my employer insurance" they start tuning out the details that follow.  a.d.d. generation and shit.

[henrygandorf 29,198]

10 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

We don't need higher taxes (on the 99% anyway) we just need better prioritization of where those taxes go. 

seriously.  if trump can simply move money around without going through congress, then i would imagine a dem could reallocate where needed, especially with a democratic congress.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,536]

MFA is a loser idea. Perhaps there can be some ideas around expanding it, in terms of lowering the age you can start, or allowing some lower middle class people to buy into it. However most likely this will do nothing except bankrupt it faster. In other words, we need more taxes to fund it.  

The main people that want MFA are people that are on Medicaid or just can't get any insurance because of cost. I don't know if Dems need this vote over potentially losing others.

[Fozzz 152]

 

24 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

People who can afford health care premiums who and tentative about changing the system too rapidly. 

So about 70%.

You think most people would rather keep paying their premiums in lieu of having their taxes increased even if their premium is greater than the increase to their taxes?  I don't think most people are that stupid.

[tantric superman 4,668]

25 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

You think most people would rather keep paying their premiums in lieu of having their taxes increased even if their premium is greater than the increase to their taxes?  I don't think most people are that stupid.

I think most people are adverse to change, even if the change is to their great advantage.

Trump didn't win on policy.  I wouldn't put all my money into having him defeated by policy arguments.

[Born to Run 6,570]

MFA is a loser idea. Perhaps there can be some ideas around expanding it, in terms of lowering the age you can start, or allowing some lower middle class people to buy into it. However most likely this will do nothing except bankrupt it faster. In other words, we need more taxes to fund it.  
The main people that want MFA are people that are on Medicaid or just can't get any insurance because of cost. I don't know if Dems need this vote over potentially losing others.

I am self employed, and would guess I've paid out 100k in my life on just my monthly premiums, for maybe $5000 in benefits total. That is a lot money going to insurance companies. They get rich.
A glitch in auto payment one time and I lost coverage without notice. If i had gotten injured during that time I would have been fucked. Seriously sick and i might end up selling off property to get treatment.

Our system is barbaric, cruel and backwards.

We can't afford not to stand up to the insurance lobby. Fuck those assholes. I don't like my insurance and never have because they solely exist to profit off of me by any means they can get away with no matter how cruel.

[Fozzz 152]

1 minute ago, tantric superman said:

I think most people are adverse to change, even if the change is to their great advantage.

Trump didn't win on policy.  I wouldn't put all my money into having him defeated by policy arguments.

How would Trump respond to Bernie's response to Biden that the US is paying far more for less healthcare?  Would it be less idiotic than Biden's response?  

[Born to Run 6,570]

Also fuck the commentators on NPR for declaring that Biden did pretty well.
Bullshit he looked like a confused grandpa reminiscing about his glory days. Multiple gaffs and confusion. I felt visceral embarrassment for him and my country. Call it what it was.

[Dick Tremayne 103]

36 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

The main people that want MFA are people that are on Medicaid or just can't get any insurance because of cost. I don't know if Dems need this vote over potentially losing others.

I have fantastic insurance through my employer. The premium for myself and my family(wife and 3 kids) is paid 100% by my employer and the amount of my families deductible is put into an HSA for me at the beginning of every year. I literally have no out of pocket costs for medical expenses. 

 

BUT....

I support Medicare for All, and it's not something I'm willing to compromise on at all. Not because it will benefit me personally. In fact, it will most likely cost me and my family much more money. The reason I support MFA is because I know that 99% of Americans don't have anywhere near the coverage I have. Medicare for all will provide health insurance to all Americans. This is a moral issue for me. Our current system is immoral. It would be immoral for me to oppose something that would be life changing for millions of Americans because it might cost me a little more money.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Dick Tremayne

[bad_teammate 13,226]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

GOP’er here.

No one cares.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

Thank you for self identifying 

[Mojo Hand 4,580]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

GOP’er here. If I were y’all I’d be embarrassed with anything other than Beto or Biden. Kamala came off well last night. 

Warren is an embarrassment. That y’all actually have her as a serious candidate is akin to Rick Perry. 

And if I were you, I'd be embarrassed to show my face in public, let alone admit to being a GOP’er. 

[6th Street 6,509]

9 minutes ago, Dick Tremayne said:

I have fantastic insurance through my employer. The premium for myself and my family(wife and 3 kids) is paid 100% by my employer and the amount of my families deductible is put into an HSA for me at the beginning of every year. I literally have no out of pocket costs for medical expenses. 

 

BUT....

I support Medicare for All, and it's not something I'm willing to compromise on at all. Not because it will benefit me personally. In fact, it will most likely cost me and my family much more money. The reason I support MFA is because I know that 99% of Americans don't have anywhere near the coverage I have. Medicare for all will provide health insurance to all Americans. This is a moral issue for me. Our current system is immoral. It would be immoral for me to oppose something that would be life changing for millions of Americans because it might cost me a little more money.

Biden plan allows for both MFA and private healthcare. Win win

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

3 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

Biden plan allows for both MFA and private healthcare. Win win

Except Biden is the empty suit of empty suits and his record is horrible on literally everything. 

Not so sure he gives a flying fuck about his plan. 

[Dick Tremayne 103]

7 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

Biden plan allows for both MFA and private healthcare. Win win

Universal plans have universal buy in. If all Americans are on the same single payer plan, then it is much less likely to face cuts or elimination in the future. When you separate health care into two classes, there will always be demonization of the folks on "government" health care. It's the same reason that Bernie's free college and student loan forgiveness plans are preferable to means tested plans. We have to get away from segmenting Americans on essentials like healthcare and education. We provide them all to everyone. It benefits all Americans and it benefits our country.

[Fozzz 152]

Dick is such a quality poster.  

[wildcat09 29,447]

31 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

GOP’er here. If I were y’all I’d be embarrassed with anything other than Beto or Biden. Kamala came off well last night. 

Warren is an embarrassment. That y’all actually have her as a serious candidate is akin to Rick Perry. 

Elizabeth Warren is comparable to an aggy who got a D in Meats? 

lol, ok.