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Voluntary childlessness

wild_turkey

By wild_turkey
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Bernard

Bernard 879

Posted
Posted
On 9/17/2019 at 4:17 PM, Sbbruin said:

 Selfish are the ones who have kids with the expectation that the gubment is going to contribute to their upbringing.  

Do you not get tax breaks for having kids? For being married? For my side of the fence it sure seems like the gubment is contributing to your kids upbringing. On top of that, I pay a shit ton of property taxes every year and more than half goes to the school district to educated other people’s kids. 

Bernard 

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Iceman

Iceman 2713

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, Bernard said:

Do you not get tax breaks for having kids? For being married? For my side of the fence it sure seems like the gubment is contributing to your kids upbringing. On top of that, I pay a shit ton of property taxes every year and more than half goes to the school district to educated other people’s kids. 

Bernard 

You piss away more money on paying cops...

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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4639

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Bernard said:

Do you not get tax breaks for having kids? For being married? For my side of the fence it sure seems like the gubment is contributing to your kids upbringing. On top of that, I pay a shit ton of property taxes every year and more than half goes to the school district to educated other people’s kids. 

Bernard 

This would piss me off if I was single/without children - I’m not going to lie.  

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gmr548

gmr548 16580

Posted
Posted

Kids are:

1.) A massive financial drain for at least 20 years, each.
2.) A huge shift in priorities and, maybe not a total road block, but a very significant speed bump for any career or other personal goals you have for, again, about 20 years.
3.) By far the worst thing you can do in terms of fucking up the environment, particularly if we're talking more than one.
4.) If you're a woman, a total wrecking ball to your body.

I'm undecided on kids at 27. Long term SO feels the same way. We actually love kids and gave both mentioned seeing the appeal in adoption. I don't judge anyone for having them, we're all wired to procreate after all. But it's also easy to understand why you'd pass.

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crash_davis

crash_davis 23113

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Posted

there's one singular goal shared by every species on earth, the goal of procreation, the survival of the species.  that drive is in every species, in the genetic make up.  there are MANY animals that die just to procreate, salmon and monarch butterflies just to name two.

i think it's fascinating there are people who resist this urge.  i can understand the reasons but still find it fascinating.

 

 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

Kids are:

1.) A massive financial drain for at least 20 years, each.
2.) A huge shift in priorities and, maybe not a total road block, but a very significant speed bump for any career or other personal goals you have for, again, about 20 years.
3.) By far the worst thing you can do in terms of fucking up the environment, particularly if we're talking more than one.
4.) If you're a woman, a total wrecking ball to your body.

I'm undecided on kids at 27. Long term SO feels the same way. We actually love kids and gave both mentioned seeing the appeal in adoption. I don't judge anyone for having them, we're all wired to procreate after all. But it's also easy to understand why you'd pass.

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Wow, I'd hate to be your kid after gyrating thru all those reasons to not to have them....

 

As for #4 two words...... Cesarean section.

Edited by Onboard 2.0
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Aqua Buddha

Aqua Buddha 14597

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

This would piss me off if I was single/without children - I’m not going to lie.  

No kids here.  High income DINK.  I vote yes on taxes for schools every chance I vote.  I don't want to live in a civic society surrounded by dullards.

I also have a vested interest in today's children growing up to be economically productive adults.

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crash_davis

crash_davis 23113

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Posted
5 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

there's one singular goal shared by every species on earth, the goal of procreation, the survival of the species.  that drive is in every species, in the genetic make up.  there are MANY animals that die just to procreate, salmon and monarch butterflies just to name two.

i think it's fascinating there are people who resist this urge.  i can understand the reasons but still find it fascinating.

 

 

the more i think about this, the more fascinating the childless choice becomes.  nature has even gone to extent of re-writing genetics in same generation animals to insure survival of the species.  in dire times, some species change genders to insure there is enough of a male and female population to facilitate procreation and insure a species' survival.

nature is trying to doing her part and some of you ingrates spit in her face?  i keed. 

 

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Sbbruin

Sbbruin 21855

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

Kids are:

1.) A massive financial drain for at least 20 years, each.
2.) A huge shift in priorities and, maybe not a total road block, but a very significant speed bump for any career or other personal goals you have for, again, about 20 years.
3.) By far the worst thing you can do in terms of fucking up the environment, particularly if we're talking more than one.
4.) If you're a woman, a total wrecking ball to your body.

I'm undecided on kids at 27. Long term SO feels the same way. We actually love kids and gave both mentioned seeing the appeal in adoption. I don't judge anyone for having them, we're all wired to procreate after all. But it's also easy to understand why you'd pass.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 

Yeah, maybe you should pass on having them if that's your take.

on #2-I very likely would not be as successful in my career as I am if not for my kids.  If you want a reason to wake up and go try to kick butt, just look at your kids in the morning.  Those two little people depend on me for everything in the lives, and I am committed to providing them the best that I can.  If I was just trying to provide for the wife and I and our personal lifestyles, I would probably have just sold everything and sailed south.

wait, I may have fucked up...

 

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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4639

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

2.) A huge shift in priorities and, maybe not a total road block, but a very significant speed bump for any career or other personal goals you have for, again, about 20 years.

Shift in priorities yes, road block in career no. Maybe in some circumstances. Every Sr executive in every company I’ve worked for had kids (some of the younger VPs hadn’t, yet) 

33 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

4.) If you're a woman, a total wrecking ball to your body.

This is 50/50-ish imo. Maybe 60-40. More depends on how young and how much care they took care of themselves during and after. 

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Pig Bellmont

Pig Bellmont 8719

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

on #2-I very likely would not be as successful in my career as I am if not for my kids.  If you want a reason to wake up and go try to kick butt, just look at your kids in the morning. 

 Very much agree - I was never more motivated to find a better paying job than when I learned kiddo #2 was on the way. Coasting was not an option. That’s a very different kind of pressure to succeed 

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Billy Pilgrim

Billy Pilgrim 1963

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, Bernard said:

Do you not get tax breaks for having kids? For being married? For my side of the fence it sure seems like the gubment is contributing to your kids upbringing. On top of that, I pay a shit ton of property taxes every year and more than half goes to the school district to educated other people’s kids. 

Bernard 

Shaggy 1%er here- I get jack shit for tax credits, haven’t had child tax credit in years. I pay a ton in property tax too for schools I don’t use. I’m 100% in sbb’s camp that you should only have kids if you can afford ‘em. I also assume that if he can afford to live in LA that he probably doesn’t get child tax credits either.

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mchookem

mchookem 16336

Posted
Posted
On 9/20/2019 at 11:25 AM, gmr548 said:

Kids are:

1.) A massive financial drain for at least 20 years, each.
2.) A huge shift in priorities and, maybe not a total road block, but a very significant speed bump for any career or other personal goals you have for, again, about 20 years.
3.) By far the worst thing you can do in terms of fucking up the environment, particularly if we're talking more than one.
4.) If you're a woman, a total wrecking ball to your body.

I'm undecided on kids at 27. Long term SO feels the same way. We actually love kids and gave both mentioned seeing the appeal in adoption. I don't judge anyone for having them, we're all wired to procreate after all. But it's also easy to understand why you'd pass.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 

as i replied earlier in this thread, we're DINKs by choice here (well, none together, he has two grown).

but re:#4...i have two friends and one relative whose vaginas fell out after kids. they all had the mesh sling surgery.

i didn't even know that was a thing! when my first friend told me i was completely shocked. and in truth, also completely horrified. god bless them...but that became reason #38 on my list of why i never had kids. *shudder*

reason #92 transpired this week as another friend was sitting outside Travis Co. jail at midnight after no sleep for 2 nights and countless emotional breakdowns, waiting to pick up her 18 yoa daughter after posting bail.

for me, 'the most fulfilling and special love in the world' is just not worth it. nobody needs to pity me 🙂

how long have modern humans been on earth? how many billions of parents have lived?

i truly don't mean this to offend any parent, so i apologize in advance if it reads that way...but to me, being a parent may be a special experience, but there's nothing exceptional about it. it's been done literally countless times before. 

i think it was bama girl earlier in this thread talking about how some parents let their children drive their entire lives. that seems like a fairly modern construct. i know people like that and it honestly makes me pity them sometimes. but i don't have kids so what do i know lol 

i do know this...sometimes kids are just assholes. Ted Cruz was a kid once.

i know a few asshole kids. i know their parents love them, but i do wonder if they like them.

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Neonmoon

Neonmoon 38129

Posted
Posted
On 9/19/2019 at 10:28 PM, Bernard said:

Do you not get tax breaks for having kids? For being married? For my side of the fence it sure seems like the gubment is contributing to your kids upbringing. On top of that, I pay a shit ton of property taxes every year and more than half goes to the school district to educated other people’s kids. 

Bernard 

 

On 9/20/2019 at 10:25 AM, fattyflattie said:

This would piss me off if I was single/without children - I’m not going to lie.  

 

On 9/20/2019 at 11:49 AM, Aqua Buddha said:

No kids here.  High income DINK.  I vote yes on taxes for schools every chance I vote.  I don't want to live in a civic society surrounded by dullards.

I also have a vested interest in today's children growing up to be economically productive adults.

I agree with Buddha. No kids here. I’m more than happy to pay my share of taxes for schools etc. A highly educated society is important, and just because I don’t have kids, doesn’t mean I can just take my ball and go home. Being part of society means paying for things that don’t benefit you directly but benefit the greater good. 

The one thing that does rub my the wrong way, mostly because I’ve been strangely been fucked by this twice, is having to cover for a maternity/paternity leave coworker. The fucked up thing, is I think women should get a long maternity leave and a decent paternity leave, but I keep having to do two jobs at once for a couple months. It sucks knowing I will never get that time off. I don’t think there is a good solution to this issue. 

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Iceman

Iceman 2713

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Posted

Lolz at the children versus no children property tax/ school funding issue.

Our kids have been out of public schools since 2017.  Should we feel fucked over by continued levies of property taxes?

 

Funding schools is the job of society as a whole...  or go all the way private. I could support either way.  Most definitely another thread.

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Bernard

Bernard 879

Posted
Posted
On 9/21/2019 at 1:27 PM, Neonmoon said:

No kids here. I’m more than happy to pay my share of taxes for schools etc.

For the record, I’m happy to pay my fair share of school (and other) taxes even though I have no kids. An educated populace enriches us all. My issue lies in one group of government subsidized folks bitching about other folks’ government subsidizes.

Bernard

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NotActuallyALonghorn

NotActuallyALonghorn 4976

Posted
Posted
On 9/20/2019 at 11:25 AM, gmr548 said:

Kids are:

1.) A massive financial drain for at least 20 years, each.
2.) A huge shift in priorities and, maybe not a total road block, but a very significant speed bump for any career or other personal goals you have for, again, about 20 years.
3.) By far the worst thing you can do in terms of fucking up the environment, particularly if we're talking more than one.
4.) If you're a woman, a total wrecking ball to your body.

I'm undecided on kids at 27. Long term SO feels the same way. We actually love kids and gave both mentioned seeing the appeal in adoption. I don't judge anyone for having them, we're all wired to procreate after all. But it's also easy to understand why you'd pass.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 

If you you think you want to adopt, figure up the total amount you think you will spend raising a kid to high school graduation and then divide it by about three. That's about what you can expect to pony up to take over the legal rights of a baby that society doesn't particularly want. And then you still get to spend all that other money. It's ridiculous that it costs so much, and really turns a lot of people off to adopting who would otherwise make great parents.

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ImissWallyPryor

ImissWallyPryor 9046

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

If you you think you want to adopt, figure up the total amount you think you will spend raising a kid to high school graduation and then divide it by about three. That's about what you can expect to pony up to take over the legal rights of a baby that society doesn't particularly want. And then you still get to spend all that other money. It's ridiculous that it costs so much, and really turns a lot of people off to adopting who would otherwise make great parents.

And if you are thinking of white knighting a kid from Africa through adoption, you can save hundreds by spending that money on providing clean drinking water for the entire village.

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NeverMarryAStripper

NeverMarryAStripper 21907

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

If you you think you want to adopt, figure up the total amount you think you will spend raising a kid to high school graduation and then divide it by about three. That's about what you can expect to pony up to take over the legal rights of a baby that society doesn't particularly want. And then you still get to spend all that other money. It's ridiculous that it costs so much, and really turns a lot of people off to adopting who would otherwise make great parents.

Not necessarily.  We ended up adopting two of our CPS foster kids.  Total cost was less than $5K, which was fully reimbursed under our insurance plan.  Of course the cost of raising these kids after adoption is quite a bit more than average.  By the way, I highly recommend the foster kid route.  It's highly satisfying, and it's kind of like taking kids for an extended  test drive.  You do get to see the ugly side of our society though.

Edited by NeverMarryAStripper
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BabaYaga

BabaYaga 15298

Posted
Posted
On 9/21/2019 at 1:12 PM, mchookem said:

i truly don't mean this to offend any parent, so i apologize in advance if it reads that way...but to me, being a parent may be a special experience, but there's nothing exceptional about it. it's been done literally countless times before. 

It's one thing to read about hiking Everest from the thousands that have completed the trek.  Quite another to have done it yourself.  Or to read about life in a foxhole, vs. having actually lived in one.

 

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Iceman

Iceman 2713

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Posted
On 9/21/2019 at 1:12 PM, mchookem said:

 

i truly don't mean this to offend any parent, so i apologize in advance if it reads that way...but to me, being a parent may be a special experience, but there's nothing exceptional about it. it's been done literally countless times before. 

Not offended at all, but what you say is incomplete at best.  True enough, almost anyone can fuck and pop out a kid.

That hardly makes you a parent, other than the base biological definition.

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NeverMarryAStripper

NeverMarryAStripper 21907

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They do. Tuition only, but every little bit helps. A&M has a program for special needs kids (I know the jokes write themselves) that is supposed to be very good, but is quite pricey. I need to see if that would be covered for my daughter. I would kill her to be an aggy though. She bleeds burnt orange and has been going to football/baseball games since she could walk. She’s probably been to 10 OU games

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gmr548

gmr548 16580

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Posted
Not necessarily.  We ended up adopting two of our CPS foster kids.  Total cost was less than $5K, which was fully reimbursed under our insurance plan.  Of course the cost of raising these kids after adoption is quite a bit more than average.  By the way, I highly recommend the foster kid route.  It's highly satisfying, and it's kind of like taking kids for an extended  test drive.  You do get to see the ugly side of our society though.
Yeah, the foster kid route to adoption is not nearly as expensive as right out adopting a baby, but that's a whole different animal.


To clarify, this is what I meant by adoption. There's a lot of kids in our own backyard that have been dealt a really terrible hand. It's obviously a whole different animal and a difficult situation to make work, both for parent and child, but it's an obvious need.

As for the career motivation point, I get that. In fact, my dad died way too young due to heart issues. He was in a stressful, always on call kind of profession but it did pay well. No doubt the constant workplace stress from always working so goddamn hard to support my brother and me wasn't helpful. It's precisely because I do value work/life boundaries, wouldn't want to have to sacrifice time with family for career success or vice versa, etc. that I mention that. We live in a society where having the best of both of those worlds is extremely rare. I just don't like either side of the trade off. And while I'm a man, recent research has shown that, within professions, the gender pay gap pretty much only exists for women with kids. Obviously something to consider from the female perspective.

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Iceman

Iceman 2713

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Posted
4 hours ago, babysdaddy said:

At some point in the future, when my son is much much older and can take a joke, I'll refer to him in front of a group as my fuck trophy.  

How 'bout when you get adopted at the request of CPS for $7

Then your brothers call you Blue Light Special for the rest of your life?

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Jiggy-Z

Jiggy-Z 3432

Posted
Posted
On 9/20/2019 at 11:39 AM, crash_davis said:

there's one singular goal shared by every species on earth, the goal of procreation, the survival of the species.  that drive is in every species, in the genetic make up.  there are MANY animals that die just to procreate, salmon and monarch butterflies just to name two.

i think it's fascinating there are people who resist this urge.  i can understand the reasons but still find it fascinating.

 

 

I was musing about this thought the other day and realized that besides the limitations that kids bring, they literally do take the life out of you.  Sometimes I can actually feel my life force/soul draining out of me through an unseen conduit directly to my kids. 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

I was musing about this thought the other day and realized that besides the limitations that kids bring, they literally do take the life out of you.  Sometimes I can actually feel my life force/soul draining out of me through an unseen conduit directly to my kids. 

Sounds like you're doing it wrong.

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SuingToGetAMessageBoard?

SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861

Posted
Posted
On 9/20/2019 at 11:25 AM, gmr548 said:

2.) A huge shift in priorities and, maybe not a total road block, but a very significant speed bump for any career or other personal goals you have for, again, about 20 years.

A little different than the explanation others have given here, but I've found people just sort of give me leeway/benefit of the doubt because of my kids.  Sort of like this scene, but for spawn instead of marriage.  

 

 

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Sbbruin

Sbbruin 21855

Posted
Posted
Shaggy 1%er here- I get jack shit for tax credits, haven’t had child tax credit in years. I pay a ton in property tax too for schools I don’t use. I’m 100% in sbb’s camp that you should only have kids if you can afford ‘em. I also assume that if he can afford to live in LA that he probably doesn’t get child tax credits either.


You are correct, sir. And I too pay a shitton in property taxes for schools I can't send my kids to because they suck ass, and that's being kind.
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mchookem

mchookem 16336

Posted
Posted
On 9/20/2019 at 11:39 AM, crash_davis said:

there's one singular goal shared by every species on earth, the goal of procreation, the survival of the species.  that drive is in every species, in the genetic make up.  there are MANY animals that die just to procreate, salmon and monarch butterflies just to name two.

i think it's fascinating there are people who resist this urge.  i can understand the reasons but still find it fascinating.

 

 

i have also been musing on this and was thinking, in the context of the 'overpopulation' argument (not my reason)... don't some species self-regulate reproduction in dangerous or crowded circumstances? like... limited resources, say food for instance - aren't there some species that will cease procreation in those instances? or a fungus or something, if the environment becomes hostile, little water or soil, will it stop spreading? 

that IS fascinating to think about. maybe that's part of what's driving the decrease in sex/childbirth rates in places like Japan, or the increase in DINKs in the US - as a species what if we are instinctually pulling back on having children because of some of these factors (overpopulation, drain on natural resources, climate change, etc)? 🤔

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Sbbruin

Sbbruin 21855

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Posted
1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Are public schools in CA typically bad or is it a city by city, county by county thing ?

City by city.  But both LAUSD and Pasadena USD are terrible.  The smaller city run USDs like San Marino, La Canada, Arcadia, etc are all pretty good.  But the greater Pasadena area alone has more than 60 private schools.   But there are areas with decent schools.  Just not where I live, which is still expensive af to live.

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