Report: 14 billion dollar deal for Bullet train from Houston to Dallas is done

[heinhorn 16]

40 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

As a landowner of property that's been in our family for 100+ years, it's a pretty big deal to myself and others for a deal that may, or maybe not, even get off the ground.  

I have been skimming through your back and forth with other posters.  It appears your searching for confirmation bias to back up your real issue; that this effects your land.  This is a legit argument.  You should stick to that and quit with all your other bullshit.  

[Gil Bang 25903]

11 minutes ago, heinhorn said:

I have been skimming through your back and forth with other posters.  It appears your searching for confirmation bias to back up your real issue; that this effects your land.  This is a legit argument.  You should stick to that and quit with all your other bullshit.  

way to "hit 'em with the hein(horn)"

[BabaYaga 15238]

34 minutes ago, heinhorn said:

I have been skimming through your back and forth with other posters.  It appears your searching for confirmation bias to back up your real issue; that this effects your land.  This is a legit argument.  You should stick to that and quit with all your other bullshit.  

"My land" isn't anywhere fucking near Houston, but I'm sure glad you felt the need to give your opinion.  I do however, feel for those that are going to have their land taken because some dip shit things it's a good idea to "try".

That this boondoggle is being sold as a zero-cost option to tax payers when anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that is a giant lie.  With literally zero examples across the globe to cite as this ever working as a privately funded project, the defense of this horse shit is Texas is "flat", it might work, and even though CA shit the bed, maybe it will work here....

Edited September 16, 2019 by BabaYaga

[Nice Guy Eddie 13419]

To be clear, your land is being purchased, or taken, for this project?  How much are they taking?

[RPM 26267]

2 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

"My land" isn't anywhere fucking near Houston, but I'm sure glad you felt the need to give your opinion.  I do however, feel for those that are going to have their land taken because some dip shit things it's a good idea to "try".

That this boondoggle is being sold as a zero-cost option to tax payers when anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that is a giant lie.  With literally zero examples across the globe to cite as this ever working as a privately funded project, the defense of this horse shit is Texas is "flat", it might work, and even though CA shit the bed, maybe it will work here....

Baba, can you show us on the doll where the bad ol' train touched you?

[Neonmoon 38127]

3 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

As a landowner of property that's been in our family for 100+ years, it's a pretty big deal to myself and others for a deal that may, or maybe not, even get off the ground.  

Are you against Eminent Domain or just this instance because it affects your property? Do you agree with using ED for roads and public utilities? Natural Gas Pipelines? 

 

 

[RollLeft 5040]

12 hours ago, next2naus said:

Have you ever been on Amtrak? Security is lax and even the Terrorists are scared to ride it

 

full disclamer: I have an Amtrak GuestRewards account and ride the rails

True, even from Vancouver to Seattle.  Security was a joke. 

[futureman 22434]

4 hours ago, heinhorn said:

I have been skimming through your back and forth with other posters.  It appears your searching for confirmation bias to back up your real issue; that this effects your land.  This is a legit argument.  You should stick to that and quit with all your other bullshit.  

you’re 

[Trey3216 15325]

26 minutes ago, futureman said:

you’re 

Good to see you worried about trains and grammar rather than Mike White 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Trey3216

[futureman 22434]

46 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Good to see you worried about trains and grammar rather than Mike White 

you had to edit that?

[Trey3216 15325]

1 minute ago, futureman said:

you had to edit that?

New iPhone.  Getting used to typing on it.  

[Poolflood 845]

11 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

What in the ever loving fuck are you talking about? HSR isn't last mile transportation. It is hub transportation, just like airports. Do you think we need small airports placed throughout the city in order to justify and use existing large airports? I would take rail and then use Uber/Lyft. And everyday so would literally thousands and thousands of other business travelers. 

6 million yearly by 2030 and 13 million a year by 2050 - so say the projections.

Again.  If it's privately funded?  Awesome!

[gmr548 16556]

True, even from Vancouver to Seattle.  Security was a joke. 

There is little/ no security at the big northeastern stations either, which are the busiest. If it gets added here, it's because opponents pushed for it through politicians.

Even if there were airport style security, no way it'd add 30-45 mins to a one way trip. It will not be as busy as a major airport. It's a boogeyman argument.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[zork 629]

Quote

China has outlined its plan to connect the world by high-speed rail, including an underwater link to the US running a total 13,000km.

The ‘China to Russia plus the United States’ line proposed by the Chinese Academy of Engineering would start in the north east of China, travel up through Siberia, across the Bering Strait to Alaska and down through Canada before reaching the contiguous US, The Beijing Times reports.

Other planned lines - construction of which has reportedly began in China - are a link to London via Paris, Berlin and Moscow, along with a second route to Europe following the silk road to reach as far as Germany via Iran and Turkey. The international legs of the lines are currently under negotiation, the state ran paper said.

A fourth Pan-Asian line, connecting China with Singapore via Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand and Malaysia, is already under construction. Proposals for lines running from China to Africa are currently being drawn up, the paper added.

The most structurally ambitious of the proposals is the US-China link, which would require around 200km of tunnels to cross the gap between Russia and Alaska - four times the length of the Channel Tunnel. If completed it would become the world’s longest underwater tunnel and take an unprecedented feat of engineering.

...

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/beijing-to-the-us-by-train-china-outlines-plans-to-connect-world-by-high-speed-rail-network-9342749.html

[BabaYaga 15238]

12 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Are you against Eminent Domain or just this instance because it affects your property? Do you agree with using ED for roads and public utilities? Natural Gas Pipelines? 

 

 

ED as a process I have no issue with.  I already stated my property is in West Texas.  Nowhere near Houston or Dallas.  Nor is that the point.  ED in this instance where the taxpayers are being outright lied to is what I have a problem with.  There is zero chance this project is completed start to finish using only private investment.  You're a fool if you think that.  Nowhere in the history of these financial boondoggles has it ever happened.  CA train cost projections doubled after a decade of delays. They took over 15 years, over flat land that is essentially devoid of large scale urbanization and couldn't make it work.

"But this time it will be different....."

Where have we heard that line of reasoning before.    

[BabaYaga 15238]

9 hours ago, Poolflood said:

6 million yearly by 2030 and 13 million a year by 2050 - so say the projections.

Again.  If it's privately funded?  Awesome!

"IF".  That's the problem.  In California, the bullet train from Los Angeles to San Francisco was projected in 1999 to open in 2015 at a cost of $25 billion. In March 2018, the new estimate was that it would open in 2033 for as much as $98 billion.

If a privately funded proposal is to be successful, the huge capital costs must be recovered through a considerable ridership - we all know SWA and the other airlines are going to attack this relentlessly via fare wars and other means.

If the costs cannot be recovered, the only options are to abandon the project or petition the government to step in and provide supplemental funding. Developers, especially those who exist solely to participate in the construction of one project, tend to paint overly rosy scenarios, and then, when the true costs mount, are loath to pay up.

This 2017 below study validates these concerns as well:

"ridership projections forecasted by Texas Central, the company proposing the project, were excessive and demonstrated “the same ‘optimism bias’ and ‘demand exaggeration’ that have plagued many public infrastructure projects.”

Caution Ahead

[Nice Guy Eddie 13419]

We get it, you think any railway would be a failure.

Our state govt is fairly anti-public transportation outside of roads and airports. I wouldn't worry too much about them wanting to get into the HSR business unless they saw it as a positive.

Local/state govt may be asked to fund infrastructure projects but that wouldn't be unexpected nor inappropriate. they do the same for private businesses, especially ones involving large numbers of people.

[formermav43 4606]

Regardless of your feelings on HSR, I think everyone can agree they’re sick of seeing the word boondoggle in every post.

[Neonmoon 38127]

10 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

ED as a process I have no issue with.  I already stated my property is in West Texas.  Nowhere near Houston or Dallas.  Nor is that the point.  ED in this instance where the taxpayers are being outright lied to is what I have a problem with.  There is zero chance this project is completed start to finish using only private investment.  You're a fool if you think that.  Nowhere in the history of these financial boondoggles has it ever happened.  CA train cost projections doubled after a decade of delays. They took over 15 years, over flat land that is essentially devoid of large scale urbanization and couldn't make it work.

"But this time it will be different....."

Where have we heard that line of reasoning before.    

Okay, so you have no issue with ED, but you’re issue is with government wasting your tax dollars. I think we can all sympathize with that. 

Austin building a public library for 120 million that no one will use was a great example of that. However, I think most people seem to think you automatically assuming HSR will be a clusterfuck like CA is bit premature. Boston’s Big Dig was a certified “boondoggle” as you might say, its cost overrun was more than 13 Billion dollars but no one would claim we shouldn’t build tunnels anymore because Boston is retarded. 

[Poolflood 845]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

Okay, so you have no issue with ED, but you’re issue is with government wasting your tax dollars. I think we can all sympathize with that. 

Austin building a public library for 120 million that no one will use was a great example of that. However, I think most people seem to think you automatically assuming HSR will be a clusterfuck like CA is bit premature. Boston’s Big Dig was a certified “boondoggle” as you might say, its cost overrun was more than 13 Billion dollars but no one would claim we shouldn’t build tunnels anymore because Boston is retarded. 

So to be clear.  You are in favor of 22-25 million Texans subsidizing hsr that most will never use.

[Hank Scorpio 17724]

1 minute ago, Poolflood said:

So to be clear.  You are in favor of 22-25 million Texans subsidizing hsr that most will never use.

If it means I don't have to go to the airport to fly to Dallas then fuck those 22-25 million hillbillies that don't live in a real city. 

[Neonmoon 38127]

18 minutes ago, Poolflood said:

So to be clear.  You are in favor of 22-25 million Texans subsidizing hsr that most will never use.

Yes I am. 

[High Plains Drifter 10989]

 

 

On 9/16/2019 at 8:17 AM, BabaYaga said:

 

***Technically the two HSRs in Tokyo that operate in the black were built by the Japanese government then given to the company who operates them. So, if you count the absence of construction debt service as a government subsidy, then ALL high speed railways in the world require government subsidy to stay afloat.

 

 

 

You mean sort of like airports, highways, greyhound, amtrak? Or a different kind of gov subsidy?

Edited September 18, 2019 by High Plains Drifter

[Ghost of LL 15500]

If it means I don't have to go to the airport to fly to Dallas then fuck those 22-25 million hillbillies that don't live in a real city. 

Should we not subsidize I-27 between Lubbock and Amarillo? Because far fewer people use that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[6th Street 6357]

3 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Should we not subsidize I-27 between Lubbock and Amarillo? Because far fewer people use that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Highway to nowhere 

[Poolflood 845]

19 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Yes I am. 

Cool.  Go fuck yourself.  Don't vote.  Please tell me you're like tech educated or something.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

17 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Should we not subsidize I-27 between Lubbock and Amarillo? Because far fewer people use that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If that's your example, no.  We should bulldoze I27 and build a moat instead. 

[RPM 26267]

1 hour ago, Poolflood said:

So to be clear.  You are in favor of 22-25 million Texans subsidizing hsr that most will never use.

I was going to point out how bad of a take that was, but you guys seem to have that covered. BTW, did he read the part about it being private not public funded? I'll hang up and listen.

[Neonmoon 38127]

32 minutes ago, Poolflood said:

Cool.  Go fuck yourself.  Don't vote.  Please tell me you're like tech educated or something.

You seem fun. Do you do parties? 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Neonmoon

[Hank Scorpio 17724]

45 minutes ago, Poolflood said:

Cool.  Go fuck yourself.  Don't vote.  Please tell me you're like tech educated or something.

Pipe down you toothless redneck, the sophisticated urbanites are talking. 

[6th Street 6357]

1 hour ago, Poolflood said:

Cool.  Go fuck yourself.  Don't vote.  Please tell me you're like tech educated or something.

You sound obese

[Thetexashammer 1062]

On 9/16/2019 at 6:26 PM, RPM said:

Baba, can you show us on the doll where the bad ol' train touched you?

In the wallet.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

2 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

 

 

You mean sort of like airports, highways, greyhound, amtrak? Or a different kind of gov subsidy?

Toll roads most often are self supported. And even our highways are paid for by special federal and state taxes on gasoline. These taxes serve as user fees and are analogous to ticket prices. Shockingly, the price to maintain a piece of concrete is far less than a high speed rail.

If it doesn't make sense to connect 27 million people who live in LA and the Bay Area, it doesn't make sense to connect the 14 million who live in Houston and Dallas.

[Neonmoon 38127]

6 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

Toll roads most often are self supported. And even our highways are paid for by special federal and state taxes on gasoline. These taxes serve as user fees and are analogous to ticket prices. Shockingly, the price to maintain a piece of concrete is far less than a high speed rail.

If it doesn't make sense to connect 27 million people who live in LA and the Bay Area, it doesn't make sense to connect the 14 million who live in Houston and Dallas.

https://uspirg.org/reports/usp/who-pays-roads

Quote

 The new report pulls back the veil on the “users pay” myth, finding that:

·         Gas taxes and other fees paid by drivers now cover less than half of road construction and maintenance costs nationally – down from more than 70 percent in the 1960s – with the balance coming chiefly from income, sales and property taxes and other levies on general taxpayers.

·         General taxpayers at all levels of government now subsidize highway construction and maintenance to the tune of $69 billion per year – an amount exceeding the expenditure of general tax funds to support transit, bicycling, walking and passenger rail combined.

·         Regardless of how much they drive, the average American household bears an annual financial burden of more than $1,100 in taxes and indirect costs from driving – over and above any gas taxes or other fees they pay that are connected with driving.

 “The ‘users pay’ myth is deeply ingrained in U.S. transportation policy, shaping how billions of dollars in transportation funds are raised and spent each year,” said Tony Dutzik, co-author of the report and Senior Analyst at Frontier Group, a non-profit think tank. “More and more, though, all of us are bearing the cost of transportation in our tax bills, regardless of how much we drive.”

 “We need to dispel the myth that user fees are paying for the building and maintenance of our road network. The reality is that these funds are barely covering a fraction of the cost,” said Gabe Klein, SVP of Fontinalis Partners, and former Commissioner of Transportation for Chicago and Washington, D.C. “The highest return on investment is on bike, pedestrian and transit projects,” he said.

 

[HookEm 2450]

The profitability of this whole thing hinges on WHEN self driving cars become a reality. It is going to happen and it will be a lot sooner than the 40 year life of the HSR.

Let's say it takes 10 years to build the rail and 15 years before large scale autonomous car usage. You only have 5 years where the train will be the best solution and maybe 5 more where it will be close. Eventually the self driving cars will be zipping along at 100 mph and literally nobody will use the train.

There is zero chance this is profitable long term without significant government subsidy.

[Ghost of LL 15500]

30 minutes ago, HookEm said:

The profitability of this whole thing hinges on WHEN self driving cars become a reality. It is going to happen and it will be a lot sooner than the 40 year life of the HSR.

Let's say it takes 10 years to build the rail and 15 years before large scale autonomous car usage. You only have 5 years where the train will be the best solution and maybe 5 more where it will be close. Eventually the self driving cars will be zipping along at 100 mph and literally nobody will use the train.

There is zero chance this is profitable long term without significant government subsidy.

I think that's my prediction, too.  But I'm also willing to acknowledge that my prediction could be very wrong.

If autonomous vehicles become ubiquitous as you posit, then I think it's very likely that private ownership of automobiles becomes solely the province of enthusiasts.  The vast majority of us are going to use Uber or Lyft or whatever other autonomous-car service is available for 100% of our driving needs.

If that happens, are you going to take an Uber from Dallas to Houston?  Or are you going to take an Uber to the train station and then pick up an Uber at the other end?  I don't really know--I suspect it depends largely on how much an Uber costs.  But doesn't that have the whiff of the difference between flying commercial and flying private?  And commercial airlines don't seem like they're being put out of business by general aviation.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

I don't think private ownership of automobiles will be solely for enthusiasts any time soon. At least not until we have affordable robots that can pick up feed from the feed store and feed cattle, fix fences, or do any number of things like that. Not to mention the logistics of maintaining a fleet of reliable ride share vehicles out in the sticks where population density is low. People in the city may not own cars, but that is already how it is in other cities with plenty of public transit options.

[BabaYaga 15238]

6 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

If autonomous vehicles become ubiquitous as you posit, then I think it's very likely that private ownership of automobiles becomes solely the province of enthusiasts.  The vast majority of us are going to use Uber or Lyft or whatever other autonomous-car service is available for 100% of our driving needs.

Why would you give up your car?  Are there going to be two types of cars:  autonomous and non?  Autonomous for commuting and non for recreational?  I'd think they'd just all be autonomous.  When you get to major highway systems you turn it on and away you go while you work on your computer (what I'd do) on the way to/from work.  Around town, as most people plug in addresses via Google maps, it would go one step further and just take you there.  But people will still want their freedom of having their own vehicle.

People love their cars.  They are not going to give them up.  Most modern cities are designed around auto use (Dallas and Houston certainly are).  They enjoy and demand the freedom to use them at any hour of the day and go where they want.  Then you get into all the mixed-use vehicles like trucks.  Hauling couches, etc.  Going to the country.  Taking road trips.  Taking kids to/from sports events.  You're not using Uber for that.  Maybe in the NE where auto use is a lower percentage of the population, but through the vast majority of the country people aren't giving up their cars.  

It may not even matter, Texas Central is tied up in court right now over the concerns of ED anyway.  Could be tied up for years before they are even able to break ground 

Quote

Patrick McShan, an attorney for the group Texans Against High-Speed Rail and more than 100 landowners along the train's route, said there may be a lengthy court battle to settle the disagreement over whether the company can use eminent domain. And that, he said, could stall the project.

“At least two years, could be four years. Whatever it is, it’s several years," he said. "It would be a significant obstacle to the project being constructed. ... I do not envision a scenario where they can obtain these necessary approvals and these necessary court rulings to prove to the state that it is justifiable and necessary for the state to expend its resources on this project."

 

[Ghost of LL 15500]

There's no real argument that a railroad has eminent-domain authority under existing Texas law.  See Tex. Transp. Code 112.053, 131.012.  That's why Texas Against High-Speed Rail has been trying to change the law during the past three legislative sessions.

As to autonomous cars, I just don't know.  I could see that the ability to hire a different type automobile for different trips would be very attractive (and far more attractive than owning a single car type and using that for every trip).  But ultimately, it doesn't matter.  Texas Central has their vision of the future.  You have a different vision. 

We will see who is right.

[Js1 85161]

18 hours ago, formermav43 said:

Regardless of your feelings on HSR, I think everyone can agree they’re sick of seeing the word boondoggle in every post.

Just checking in here to see if some dude is still crying about his land in West Texas, which is nowhere near the proposed Dallas-Houston line. 

[Homercles 10205]

On 9/16/2019 at 6:26 PM, RPM said:

Baba, can you show us on the doll where the bad ol' train touched you?

[BabaYaga 15238]

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

There's no real argument that a railroad has eminent-domain authority under existing Texas law.  See Tex. Transp. Code 112.053, 131.012.  That's why Texas Against High-Speed Rail has been trying to change the law during the past three legislative sessions.

The suit to date hinges on whether HSR qualifies as a "railroad", correct?

Quote

As to autonomous cars, I just don't know.  I could see that the ability to hire a different type automobile for different trips would be very attractive (and far more attractive than owning a single car type and using that for every trip).  But ultimately, it doesn't matter.  Texas Central has their vision of the future.  You have a different vision. 

We will see who is right.

Sounds exhausting to "hire" different types for different trips (assuming Murphys Law doesn't appear and your trip/need changes, etc.  Too many variables to see this as viable each time).  Why not just use your own car?

If autonomous vehicles stutter out, we the taxpayers aren't on the hook.  We keep doing what we're doing.  If TC goes tits up, to the tune of tens of billions of dollars, we the taxpayers have to step in.  There is obvious concern because no other country has been able to make a 100% privately funded operation work, so you can see the obvious skepticism.  

[Ghost of LL 15500]

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

The suit to date hinges on whether HSR qualifies as a "railroad", correct?

Yeah, which is really hard to argue with a straight face.

[Bolero88 255]

15 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Okay, so you have no issue with ED, but you’re issue is with government wasting your tax dollars. I think we can all sympathize with that. 

Austin building a public library for 120 million that no one will use was a great example of that. However, I think most people seem to think you automatically assuming HSR will be a clusterfuck like CA is bit premature. Boston’s Big Dig was a certified “boondoggle” as you might say, its cost overrun was more than 13 Billion dollars but no one would claim we shouldn’t build tunnels anymore because Boston is retarded. 

The Austin library is already a landmark and is busy every day of the week. Have you ever even been there, especially on a Saturday? You could not be more wrong. 

[Neonmoon 38127]

3 minutes ago, Bolero88 said:

The Austin library is already a landmark and is busy every day of the week. Have you ever even been there, especially on a Saturday? You could not be more wrong. 

I was trying to sympathize with taxpayers dollars being wasted. So if it's not a waste, then great. More ammunition that some tax payer funded projects do benefit the greater good. I've never been and will never go, but I'm happy to support something with my tax dollars that benefits the city of Austin as a whole. 

[HouTex 1851]

Yeah, which is really hard to argue with a straight face.

Railroads clearly have the power of ED. But the ED specialist at my firm who represents some landowners says it's not clear whether you must already be a railroad or whether the ED power extends to a startup railroad. They could simply buy a small railroad (are there any?) and that issue would go away.

[Ghost of LL 15500]

Railroads clearly have the power of ED. But the ED specialist at my firm who represents some landowners says it's not clear whether you must already be a railroad or whether the ED power extends to a startup railroad. They could simply buy a small railroad (are there any?) and that issue would go away.

They don’t even need to do that. All they need to do is lay a mile of track on land they already own and they’re good.


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[Nice Guy Eddie 13419]

The autonomous car argument seems to support  HSR as it does to reject the project.

As stated, there is a strong belief that autonomous cars will lead to lower car ownership in cities. Services will be created to own/maintain the cars and keep them on the roads as much as possible. They could even be more convenient and cheaper than Uber is today. 

And if that is the case, you most likely wouldn't take one of the autonomous Ubers for distance trips. We would want the ability to combine people that want to go to same distant, large cities.  Like in a HSR train.

Scenario: I tell my Siri/Alexa that I need to be at a meeting in Dallas at 9:30am, or better yet, Alexa knows it.  Alexa tells me to be ready at my front door at 7am.   

• autonomous Uber pulls up at 7am
• drives me to the HSR station in Houston by 7:20am. I live close to NW Mall today.
• 90 minute HSR ride to Dallas.
• another autonomous Uber is there to take me to my Dallas meeting at 9:30.

All of the services were in constant communication to keep my timeline. If there is any change or delays, the plans automatically adjust. 

I agree that commercial air travel would fit into these types of scenarios as well.  The problem with airplane travel today is the extreme times spent in airports, which occur regardless of the distance. That time is a killer for short flights like HOU-DAL.

[HouTex 1851]

They don’t even need to do that. All they need to do is lay a mile of track on land they already own and they’re good.


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Perhaps. But I can see a friendly Texas state court judge holding that a "railroad" must not only have rail but it must actually be an operating enterprise with passengers, rail cars, etc. It's still relatively easily solved depending on how much money they want to spend.

[gsoda3 3238]

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

The suit to date hinges on whether HSR qualifies as a "railroad", correct?

Sounds exhausting to "hire" different types for different trips (assuming Murphys Law doesn't appear and your trip/need changes, etc.  Too many variables to see this as viable each time).  Why not just use your own car?

If autonomous vehicles stutter out, we the taxpayers aren't on the hook.  We keep doing what we're doing.  If TC goes tits up, to the tune of tens of billions of dollars, we the taxpayers have to step in.  There is obvious concern because no other country has been able to make a 100% privately funded operation work, so you can see the obvious skepticism.  

your uncited examples of only 2 HSR companies being profitable state the profitability hinges on not having initial capital expenditures to build the infrastructure (japan funded and built the tracks / cars then gave it to the operators).  if this fails, the gvt takes over an existing network of track and assets.  win!