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Report: 14 billion dollar deal for Bullet train from Houston to Dallas is done

Horn Under a Bad Sign

By Horn Under a Bad Sign
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Trey3216

Trey3216 15325

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Posted
15 hours ago, Poolflood said:

So to be clear.  You are in favor of 22-25 million Texans subsidizing hsr that most will never use.

Do those same Texans wine about how shitty the roads in West Texas are?  Do they bitch and moan about how horrific the traffic is on I-35, which is going to be under continuous construction until the end of cars?  

If we could get 1/5 of the people of I-35, we could divert a bunch of construction funds to other projects.  

 

The argument about self-driving cars solving the problem is more ignorant than the bitching and moaning about HSR.   

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Brisketexan
Brisketexan

Schedules are going to be a challenge, because the train is going to run significantly faster on the trips north than on the trips south. Because Oklahoma sucks.

TexArcher
TexArcher

Who wants to go to Dallas at all, much less really quickly?

Continental Op
Continental Op

I am very angry about the possibility of privately funded rail even though it is not going to get in the way of driving my F250 dually that is never called upon to do anything more difficult than haul

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Trey3216

Trey3216 15325

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4 hours ago, HookEm said:

The profitability of this whole thing hinges on WHEN self driving cars become a reality. It is going to happen and it will be a lot sooner than the 40 year life of the HSR.

Let's say it takes 10 years to build the rail and 15 years before large scale autonomous car usage. You only have 5 years where the train will be the best solution and maybe 5 more where it will be close. Eventually the self driving cars will be zipping along at 100 mph and literally nobody will use the train.

There is zero chance this is profitable long term without significant government subsidy.

Autonomous cars aren't the fucking answer. 

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Hank Scorpio

Hank Scorpio 17724

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2 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Autonomous cars aren't the fucking answer. 

Not on their own. But what if we bored out thousands of miles of underground tunnels, and then you could drive the autonomous cars on that? I think that is a brilliant idea and we don't currently have any form of transportation remotely similar, wherein a large amount of people can be transported underground. 

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Trey3216

Trey3216 15325

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2 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

Not on their own. But what if we bored out thousands of miles of underground tunnels, and then you could drive the autonomous cars on that? I think that is a brilliant idea and we don't currently have any form of transportation remotely similar, wherein a large amount of people can be transported underground. 

Thanks, Elon.

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BabaYaga

BabaYaga 15238

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19 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Do those same Texans wine about how shitty the roads in West Texas are?  Do they bitch and moan about how horrific the traffic is on I-35, which is going to be under continuous construction until the end of cars?  

If we could get 1/5 of the people of I-35, we could divert a bunch of construction funds to other projects.  

 

The argument about self-driving cars solving the problem is more ignorant than the bitching and moaning about HSR.   

I love wine.....

Seriously, I do think the congestion stems from people all driving at various speeds, etc.  The premise I've seen is a comprehensive "grid" type system where all the cars are synced allows for more continuity.  Using the existing infrastructure or updating as needed.  Simply an evolution of digital maps we use now on our phones that relay destination times, wrecks, etc.  You dial up a destination and the car does the rest.  I could see regulation on highway (required "auto-drive") and smaller roads close to home (allowed to "self-drive").  

I forget the guest, but there was a man on the JRE that feared completely autonomous cars that would deny, or forbid taking you to certain destinations.  Or would track where you go and provide actionable feedback (always going to liquor store, or fast food, etc.).  

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Trey3216

Trey3216 15325

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21 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I love wine.....

Seriously, I do think the congestion stems from people all driving at various speeds, etc.  The premise I've seen is a comprehensive "grid" type system where all the cars are synced allows for more continuity.  Using the existing infrastructure or updating as needed.  Simply an evolution of digital maps we use now on our phones that relay destination times, wrecks, etc.  You dial up a destination and the car does the rest.  I could see regulation on highway (required "auto-drive") and smaller roads close to home (allowed to "self-drive").  

I forget the guest, but there was a man on the JRE that feared completely autonomous cars that would deny, or forbid taking you to certain destinations.  Or would track where you go and provide actionable feedback (always going to liquor store, or fast food, etc.).  

#metoo

 

and I hate when my phone autocorrects actual words into other ones that I didn’t want.   Uggh 

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13419

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by the way, while I support HSR, I readily admit that I have zero idea of the profitability of the idea as a private business in Texas. Tickets may be too expensive to make it a profit.  I find it hard to believe that Texas Central's plan is to build/start their service and plan to surprise the state with a big bill at the end.

If I were them, I would ask the state for concessions (assistance with eminent domain and some monopoly protection) as long as I continued to grow the service to cover the 4-5 major cities.  And I cover all of the costs.  30-50 year timeframe.  This would make the project much more attractive to investors.

 

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Ghost of LL

Ghost of LL 15500

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3 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

by the way, while I support HSR, I readily admit that I have zero idea of the profitability of the idea as a private business in Texas. Tickets may be too expensive to make it a profit.  I find it hard to believe that Texas Central's plan is to build/start their service and plan to surprise the state with a big bill at the end.

If I were them, I would ask the state for concessions (assistance with eminent domain and some monopoly protection) as long as I continued to grow the service to cover the 4-5 major cities.  And I cover all of the costs.  30-50 year timeframe.  This would make the project much more attractive to investors.

 

I don't think they need monopoly protection because they'll own the rails.  They have a monopoly unless they want to grant transit rights or someone else builds their own line.

As to the financials, I am under the impression that there is something else behind this.  The manufacturer of the train sets was the primary initial investor.  It wouldn't surprise me if they were using this as a proof-of-concept loss-leader to convince Amtrak or other potential operators to build new HSR lines elsewhere and use their train sets for purposes of commonality.  If the federal government committed to upgrading the Northeast Corridor and also built HSR in other high-density corridors (e.g., Miami-Orlando-Tampa; Milwaukee-Chicago-Detroit-Toronto), then the manufacturer could conceivably recoup its investment on this with the profit it makes from selling the hardware for those projects. 

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sasquatch69

sasquatch69 595

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10 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I don't think they need monopoly protection because they'll own the rails.  They have a monopoly unless they want to grant transit rights or someone else builds their own line.

As to the financials, I am under the impression that there is something else behind this.  The manufacturer of the train sets was the primary initial investor.  It wouldn't surprise me if they were using this as a proof-of-concept loss-leader to convince Amtrak or other potential operators to build new HSR lines elsewhere and use their train sets for purposes of commonality.  If the federal government committed to upgrading the Northeast Corridor and also built HSR in other high-density corridors (e.g., Miami-Orlando-Tampa; Milwaukee-Chicago-Detroit-Toronto), then the manufacturer could conceivably recoup its investment on this with the profit it makes from selling the hardware for those projects. 

That would be playing an extremely long game, then, because Amtrak just purchased a ton of new rolling stock for the high(er)-speed Acela lines along the NE Corridor, scheduled to enter service in 2021. 

 

https://www.amtrak.com/next-generation-acela-express

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13419

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24 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I don't think they need monopoly protection because they'll own the rails.  They have a monopoly unless they want to grant transit rights or someone else builds their own line.

As to the financials, I am under the impression that there is something else behind this.  The manufacturer of the train sets was the primary initial investor.  It wouldn't surprise me if they were using this as a proof-of-concept loss-leader to convince Amtrak or other potential operators to build new HSR lines elsewhere and use their train sets for purposes of commonality.  If the federal government committed to upgrading the Northeast Corridor and also built HSR in other high-density corridors (e.g., Miami-Orlando-Tampa; Milwaukee-Chicago-Detroit-Toronto), then the manufacturer could conceivably recoup its investment on this with the profit it makes from selling the hardware for those projects. 

I meant monopoly protection in terms that preventing the state from financially back another HSR in another part of the state.  But like I said, the rail company has to give something in return such as progressively adding more HSR coverage.  In terms of adding stops between Houston and Dallas and full routes between other cities.  And before someone says that stops in small towns will significantly slow down HSR, you're right but you can also give those town only 1-2 stops per day out of 40, or whatever.  You give the Houston-Dallas rider a price break by adding 15-20 minutes to their journey.

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Poolflood

Poolflood 845

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

https://uspirg.org/reports/usp/who-pays-roads

 

Few things I skimmed from this report:

Walking and biking have virtually no impact on roads (and co2 emmissions)

The government spends more on roads than bike paths, mass transit, etc. combined.

The gas tax is woefully low - but that's ok, because the government pisses away money like they don't care.

Sales tax exemption on the gas taxes (as a subsidy) figure prominently in the analysis - between 15 to 30 percent of overall "costs".  Not sure why this is pointed out because - govt sucks.

So you're STILL ok with the citizens of Texas - some 20+ million subsidizing the travel of  another 3 million?  Remember, the report you pointed out says the government sucks at this sort of thing.  If you said - flood, you fucking asshole - double the gas tax.  I'm down.  It hasn't gone up for like 30 years.  It's time.  But public financing of this is ludicrous.

 Oh and when you get into your hybrid, should you be charged extra for road usage?  Since you pay no gas tax at all?  

 

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17497

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12 minutes ago, Poolflood said:

Few things I skimmed from this report:

Walking and biking have virtually no impact on roads (and co2 emmissions)

The government spends more on roads than bike paths, mass transit, etc. combined.

The gas tax is woefully low - but that's ok, because the government pisses away money like they don't care.

Sales tax exemption on the gas taxes (as a subsidy) figure prominently in the analysis - between 15 to 30 percent of overall "costs".  Not sure why this is pointed out because - govt sucks.

So you're STILL ok with the citizens of Texas - some 20+ million subsidizing the travel of  another 3 million?  Remember, the report you pointed out says the government sucks at this sort of thing.  If you said - flood, you fucking asshole - double the gas tax.  I'm down.  It hasn't gone up for like 30 years.  It's time.  But public financing of this is ludicrous.

 Oh and when you get into your hybrid, should you be charged extra for road usage?  Since you pay no gas tax at all?  

 

Well, we have 28 million subsidizing the travel of maybe a few hundred thousand in all of west Texas. So yeah, I think the overall population subsidizing  travel between the two largest population centers in the state, containing just under half of the overall population is pretty fucking reasonable. Especially, when you consider that those two population centers also represent the vast majority of economic output in the state, and as a result, also most of the tax receipts (so really, they are paying for it anyway). 

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Continental Op

Continental Op 3934

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I am very angry about the possibility of privately funded rail even though it is not going to get in the way of driving my F250 dually that is never called upon to do anything more difficult than hauling my son Jeighdyn's t-ball equipment around Frisco anywhere I want at all.  

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Poolflood

Poolflood 845

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On 9/18/2019 at 5:58 PM, Dahobbs said:

Well, we have 28 million subsidizing the travel of maybe a few hundred thousand in all of west Texas. So yeah, I think the overall population subsidizing  travel between the two largest population centers in the state, containing just under half of the overall population is pretty fucking reasonable. Especially, when you consider that those two population centers also represent the vast majority of economic output in the state, and as a result, also most of the tax receipts (so really, they are paying for it anyway). 

You're referencing 10 and 20?  Part of the FEDERAL highway system?

 

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Errestaurants

Errestaurants 2570

Posted
Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Continental Op said:

I am very angry about the possibility of privately funded rail even though it is not going to get in the way of driving my F250 dually that is never called upon to do anything more difficult than hauling my son Jeighdyn's t-ball equipment around Frisco anywhere I want at all.  

tell me more about this F250 dually

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Poolflood

Poolflood 845

Posted
Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Oh, I am sorry. We have 300 million subsidizing the travel of a few hundred thousand. Does that help your argument

You realize 10 and 20 serve slightly more than West Texas....   or I guess you don't.  So interstate 10 runs through like 8 states.  It wasn't built just to serve West Texas.   

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Cajun

Cajun 11692

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On 9/18/2019 at 5:38 PM, Poolflood said:

 

 Oh and when you get into your hybrid, should you be charged extra for road usage?  Since you pay no gas tax at all?  

 

Wait, I drive a hybrid AND pay gas tax.

You know, because my hybrid uses electricity AND gas.

Am I doing it wrong?

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17497

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Posted
17 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

You see those big ass trucks on I-10 and I-20, they kind of have to go through there to move shit across the country.  

Again, how is this helping? At very best, you are making the exact same argument I am for why subsidizing travel between the two largest economic engines in the state is reasonable. 

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Poolflood

Poolflood 845

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Posted
17 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Again, how is this helping? At very best, you are making the exact same argument I am for why subsidizing travel between the two largest economic engines in the state is reasonable. 

No.  No.  No.  You're for public funding of an alternative mode of transit between two cities that already have multiple modes available.  The hsr isn't being built to replace 18 wheelers.  It's to move business commuters from Houston to Dallas.  Again, fine.  Just as long as it's privately funded.

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17497

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9 hours ago, Poolflood said:

No.  No.  No.  You're for public funding of an alternative mode of transit between two cities that already have multiple modes available.  The hsr isn't being built to replace 18 wheelers.  It's to move business commuters from Houston to Dallas.  Again, fine.  Just as long as it's privately funded.

Oh, so it's not the general idea of  government subsidizing travel for a sub portion of the population you have a problem with, it is this particular instance of it. See, now we get some intellectual honesty. Dont argue based on an easy categorization if you dont actually believe your easy categorization. 

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heinhorn

heinhorn 16

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Posted

For those in Houston complaining about the lack of "last mile" public transport options from the terminal, Metro has a plan that addresses this (and a bunch of other stuff) that we get vote on in November.  There will be BRT lines going from the terminal at the northwest mall to the CBD.  The Galleria BRT lines will terminate there as well.  So, if you're traveling to Houston from Dallas, when you arrive, you will be able jump on a BRT which will leave every 5 minutes and for $2.50 get whisked away to one of the two largest business districts in the city.  Or alternatively, from your office in the Galleria to Dallas in about 2 hours maybe slightly longer from the CBD.  https://www.metronext.org/assets/pdfs/plan-guide.pdf?v=1.002

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Poolflood

Poolflood 845

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On 9/18/2019 at 5:02 PM, Ghost of LL said:

I don't think they need monopoly protection because they'll own the rails.  They have a monopoly unless they want to grant transit rights or someone else builds their own line.

As to the financials, I am under the impression that there is something else behind this.  The manufacturer of the train sets was the primary initial investor.  It wouldn't surprise me if they were using this as a proof-of-concept loss-leader to convince Amtrak or other potential operators to build new HSR lines elsewhere and use their train sets for purposes of commonality.  If the federal government committed to upgrading the Northeast Corridor and also built HSR in other high-density corridors (e.g., Miami-Orlando-Tampa; Milwaukee-Chicago-Detroit-Toronto), then the manufacturer could conceivably recoup its investment on this with the profit it makes from selling the hardware for those projects. 

Nothing regarding the argument but I love this.

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Poolflood

Poolflood 845

Posted
Posted
On 9/20/2019 at 8:22 AM, Dahobbs said:

Oh, so it's not the general idea of  government subsidizing travel for a sub portion of the population you have a problem with, it is this particular instance of it. See, now we get some intellectual honesty. Dont argue based on an easy categorization if you dont actually believe your easy categorization. 

Yes.  It is this particular incident.  I've not argued for/against a category. 

Keep throwing shit on the wall.  Or better yet, go watch some football.

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17497

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Posted
On 9/18/2019 at 5:38 PM, Poolflood said:

 

So you're STILL ok with the citizens of Texas - some 20+ million subsidizing the travel of  another 3 million?  Remember, the report you pointed out says the government sucks at this sort of thing.

 

Gee, however could I have got that impression...

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13419

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I gather that high speed rail has changed dramatically over the past 11 years, as China has built more hsr miles than the rest of the world has built over the last 50.  And because of the size of the Chinese trains (more than 1000 passengers per train in some routes), it’s more economically feasible for longer routes. 

Now I know we don’t have that kind of demand in the US but 1 train replacing six 737 flights is impressive.  It also allows the ticket prices to be less than flights, and passengers only have to give up a couple of hours of their time.

 

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8397

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On 9/20/2019 at 2:24 PM, heinhorn said:

For those in Houston complaining about the lack of "last mile" public transport options from the terminal, Metro has a plan that addresses this (and a bunch of other stuff) that we get vote on in November.  There will be BRT lines going from the terminal at the northwest mall to the CBD.  The Galleria BRT lines will terminate there as well.  So, if you're traveling to Houston from Dallas, when you arrive, you will be able jump on a BRT which will leave every 5 minutes and for $2.50 get whisked away to one of the two largest business districts in the city.  Or alternatively, from your office in the Galleria to Dallas in about 2 hours maybe slightly longer from the CBD.  https://www.metronext.org/assets/pdfs/plan-guide.pdf?v=1.002

Two hours huh?   I live about 5 miles from where the station in Houston would be.  I’d want to leave an hour before departure to make sure I had enough time to drive to station in traffic, park, and catch train. 

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heinhorn

heinhorn 16

Posted
Posted
On 9/22/2019 at 1:30 PM, Johnny Sack said:

Two hours huh?   I live about 5 miles from where the station in Houston would be.  I’d want to leave an hour before departure to make sure I had enough time to drive to station in traffic, park, and catch train. 

Ok so maybe a little longer, but generally yes, from what I understand, you could likely leave your office in the Galleria roughly 30 minutes prior to HST train leaving the station.  The BRT trains don't stop for traffic or stoplights so call it 10-15 minutes to get the train station.   Walk straight to your train get on it and in 90 minutes you're in Dallas doing Dallas things.  

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Poolflood

Poolflood 845

Posted
Posted
On 9/22/2019 at 1:30 PM, Johnny Sack said:

Two hours huh?   I live about 5 miles from where the station in Houston would be.  I’d want to leave an hour before departure to make sure I had enough time to drive to station in traffic, park, and catch train. 

 

2 hours ago, heinhorn said:

Ok so maybe a little longer, but generally yes, from what I understand, you could likely leave your office in the Galleria roughly 30 minutes prior to HST train leaving the station.  The BRT trains don't stop for traffic or stoplights so call it 10-15 minutes to get the train station.   Walk straight to your train get on it and in 90 minutes you're in Dallas doing Dallas things.  

Trains to leave every 30 minutes during peak commuting hours. 

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