What's going on with this DNI Whistleblower ?

[Jack Straw 2955]

Trump needs to be immediately removed from office by force.  Our elected officials cannot be counted on to do their duty.  

[Anastasis 23716]

Just now, triplehorn said:

go on...

Wapo reported that it was a NSC staffer.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[DigDug 1738]

1 hour ago, Chooky said:

This is what I'm afraid of.  Is that White Claw humor?

Truly it is

[Biff Tannen 46150]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

If only someone could DO SOMETHING!

[henrygandorf 29225]

can someone explain why trump cares about any ties biden has to the ukraine?

is he under the impression that dirty ties to a foreign entity can cost you a presidential run?

[Pig Bellmont 8884]

 

[triplehorn 2664]

Donbas > Biden ?  (wnb.gif)

It's possible Trump, acting with the guidance of Putin, extorted the new Ukrainian president to pull his troops out of Donbas to make make way for Putin's advancing forces.  Think of that.  Congress funds military support for Ukraine and Eastern Europe to resist Putin's attempts at further military annexation, then Trump withholds it until the Ukrainian president bends and opens up for Putin's forces.  Trump destroys our western alliances, undermines NATO.  It all fits.

[Pig Bellmont 8884]

7 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

can someone explain why trump cares about any ties biden has to the ukraine?

is he under the impression that dirty ties to a foreign entity can cost you a presidential run?

Nixon shouldn’t have cared what was in DNC HQ, either. The point is the crimes committed and abuse of Presidential power unlike anything seen in our nation’s history 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

5 minutes ago, Jack Straw said:

Trump needs to be immediately removed from office by force.  Our elected officials cannot be counted on to do their duty.  

Do we pay the bills for this country or not? Who cares if it is college football season, the Downton Abbey movie is scheduled to drop, and the kids have school. We (this is a collective 'we' minus the dolts) are American citizens and there has got to be enough beer and beef in the entire US of A to caravan to the WH and tailgate until that MF is out the door. Some marketing genius can come up with a catchy slogan, but if the Boomers and DJ aren't going to handle this, then a massive pig roast held by Americans from the fifty states ought to get their attention. Make sure someone brings a little crockpot of terrapin soup as a nod to Mitch.

[henrygandorf 29225]

2 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Do we pay the bills for this country or not? Who cares if it is college football season, the Downton Abbey movie is scheduled to drop, and the kids have school. We (this is a collective 'we' minus the dolts) are American citizens and there has got to be enough beer and beef in the entire US of A to caravan to the WH and tailgate until that MF is out the door. Some marketing genius can come up with a catchy slogan, but if the Boomers and DJ aren't going to handle this, then a massive pig roast held by Americans from the fifty states ought to get their attention. Make sure someone brings a little crockpot of terrapin soup as a nod to Mitch.

[suddenly shaggy 929]

10 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

can someone explain why trump cares about any ties biden has to the ukraine?

is he under the impression that dirty ties to a foreign entity can cost you a presidential run?

A few things. 

1) He knows Democrats care and wants to force them to be hypocritical, or turn on Biden and eliminate who he views as his biggest, or second biggest threat. 

2) Makes it into a both sides argument. If voters decide they are all corrupt, they won't care about his corruption as much. 

3) He's trying to spin the ridiculous argument that Ukraine and Russia actually interfered to help Hillary.

[David Dennison 19513]

23 minutes ago, Jack Straw said:

Trump needs to be immediately removed from office by force.  Our elected officials cannot be counted on to do their duty.  

That's a coup d'etat.

I'd watch that.

[henrygandorf 29225]

7 minutes ago, suddenly shaggy said:

A few things. 

1) He knows Democrats care and wants to force them to be hypocritical, or turn on Biden and eliminate who he views as his biggest, or second biggest threat. 

2) Makes it into a both sides argument. If voters decide they are all corrupt, they won't care about his corruption as much. 

3) He's trying to spin the ridiculous argument that Ukraine and Russia actually interfered to help Hillary.

yeah, i was really just pointing out the irony.  considering trump's self-awareness, i can only assume it's intentional.

[Yuk 1613]

4 minutes ago, suddenly shaggy said:

A few things. 

1) He knows Democrats care and wants to force them to be hypocritical, or turn on Biden and eliminate who he views as his biggest, or second biggest threat. 

2) Makes it into a both sides argument. If voters decide they are all corrupt, they won't care about his corruption as much. 

3) He's trying to spin the ridiculous argument that Ukraine and Russia actually interfered to help Hillary.

It's all three.  And each is targeted at different levels of the intellectually gifted GOP electorate.  1.) Dumb 2.) Dumber 3.) aggy/Qanon

[jimmyjazz 47122]

This focus on money and "bribery" is a red herring.  Let's step back a minute.  Let's examine the letter Robert Rosenstein wrote charging Robert Mueller to investigate Trump's campaign:

Quote

APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COUNSEL TO INVESTIGATE RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE WITH THE 2016 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND RELATED MATTERS

 

(a) Robert S. Mueller III is appointed to serve as Special Counsel for the United States Department of Justice.

(b) The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI Director James B. Corney in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including: (i) any links and/or coordination bet ween the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump;

So, we see that interference with an election is potentially a BIG DEAL, and it's a REALLY BIG DEAL if there are links to or coordination with individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump.

I submit that an attempt to get a foreign entity to dig up dirt on President Trump's likely adversary in the 2020 election IS EXACTLY FUCKING THIS.  Bribery doesn't matter.  Hell, it's probably closer to extortion than bribery.  Who cares?  It is EXACTLY the kind of thing Mueller was looking for.

God damn I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Edited September 20, 2019 by jimmyjazz

[triplehorn 2664]

damn, I'd like to see the reference tweet that got deleted, but same guy as above follows up:

Interesting comment wondering about the former actor/comedian turned new Ukraine president striking a compromise - give up Donbas to Putin in exchange for no more annexation by Putin. A 'peace' plan if you will. (sucker)  

Zelensky gets paid with US Congressional appropriations.  Trump gets campaign aid (plus more).  Putin gets land, possibly a US spy ousted from his inner circle by Trump, and future opportunities to go deeper, inch by inch, schooled chucklefuck gameshow host after gameshow host. 

[GW Hayduke 1957]

24 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

Donbas > Biden ?  (wnb.gif)

It's possible Trump, acting with the guidance of Putin, extorted the new Ukrainian president to pull his troops out of Donbas to make make way for Putin's advancing forces.  Think of that.  Congress funds military support for Ukraine and Eastern Europe to resist Putin's attempts at further military annexation, then Trump withholds it until the Ukrainian president bends and opens up for Putin's forces.  Trump destroys our western alliances, undermines NATO.  It all fits.

I don't think any of that info is sourced.  It is times like this that misinformation campaigns ramp up. That could be to muddy the waters a bit.

We had Rudy jump out and stop the slow trickle of information. 

We've got a likely white house official telling WSJ that there wasn't a quid pro quo. Muddy the water.

Trump trying to label the whistle blower "partisan."  Eventually, I suspect GOPers in the House start to parrot this.

This is there standard playbook on putting out fires.  There will likely be a lot more muddying and partisan labels.  

[horncyclist 1391]

This seems on the scale of firing Comey. So we can expect nothing to happen.

[triplehorn 2664]

9 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

I don't think any of that info is sourced.  It is times like this that misinformation campaigns ramp up. That could be to muddy the waters a bit.

We had Rudy jump out and stop the slow trickle of information. 

We've got a likely white house official telling WSJ that there wasn't a quid pro quo. Muddy the water.

Trump trying to label the whistle blower "partisan."  Eventually, I suspect GOPers in the House start to parrot this.

This is there standard playbook on putting out fires.  There will likely be a lot more muddying and partisan labels.  

Not a familiar source, but reported yesterday:

Ukraine Armed Forces engaged in Donbas withdrawal preparations

Quote

Ukraine’s Armed Forces are currently engaged in preparations for an eventual withdrawal along the entire separation line in Donbas, the press service of the Joint Forces Operation said on Sept. 18, citing Commander Lt. Gen. Volodymyr Kravchenko. Currently, preparations are being made in the town of Stanytsia Luhanska to renew a ruined bridge, Kravchenko said, while safe zones are also being planned for the town of Zolote and Pokrovske in the Luhansk region. “We are ready for this for the sake of the lives of our citizens, and ultimately, everything will depend on identical actions from the opposing side,” he said. The withdrawal preparations were authorized by President Zelensky, Defense Minister Andriy Zahorodniuk and Lt. Gen. Ruslan Khomchak, the chief of staff of Ukraine’s Armed Forces, he said.

 

 

[triplehorn 2664]

Another angle would be for Russia to agree to withdraw from Donbas as well, but without returning Crimea to Ukraine.  Previously, that has been a condition for Ukraine backing off Donbas - the return of Crimea to Ukraine.

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by triplehorn
dammit

[Zonahorn 8079]

On 9/19/2019 at 1:22 PM, Anastasis said:

You’re more than a decade too late, get over it.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Checking in for the first time today.  So the whistleblower got the info secondhand per CNN, and the call didn't contain an explicit promise of military aid per WSJ, is that the latest? 

[Longhorn_Fan68 34101]

7 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Checking in for the first time today.  So the whistleblower got the info secondhand per CNN, and the call didn't contain an explicit promise of military aid per WSJ, is that the latest? 

if it were really that tepid would the white house go to these lengths to keep the information from being made public?

[Mojo Hand 4580]

2 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

if it were really that tepid would the white house go to these lengths to keep the information from being made public?

I dunno, I'm just trying to catch up.  So y'all think the WSJ story is administration spin? 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[Post Oak 20555]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Do something you feckless coward before he kills us all

[Brisketexan 106874]

Do something you feckless coward before he kills us all

Dude....”feckless coward” is our brand these days, across the board.

[GW Hayduke 1957]

This was reported by CNN on August 30th.  The stated reason for holding funds from Ukraine was because Trump wanted to make budget cuts to foreign aid. Trump is concerned about our deficit folks!  

Quote

President Donald Trump is seriously considering a plan to block $250 million in military assistance to Ukraine, a move that would further ingratiate him with Russian President Vladimir Putin, and has directed senior officials to review the aid package.

Trump's decision to order the review comes after the White House publicly lost a battle to slash foreign aid spending across the board. After scrapping the plan to slash $4 billion in foreign aid, Trump said his team would look to find cuts elsewhere in the aid budget.

"The President has made no secret when it comes to foreign assistance that US interests abroad should be prioritized and other foreign countries should also be paying their fair share," a senior administration official told CNN.

Specifically, Trump has directed Defense Secretary Mark Esper and national security adviser John Bolton to oversee the process, the senior administration official said.

The President has not yet made a final decision on whether to permanently block the funds, an administration official told CNN. The review process, however, has effectively paused disbursement of the funds, which are set to expire on September 30 if they are not used.

 

The Pentagon has already recommended to the White House that the hold on military assistance to Ukraine be lifted, an administration official and a US defense official told CNN Thursday.

A Pentagon spokesperson declined to comment on the matter on Thursday.

"We do not publicly comment on internal budget deliberations. For further inquiries, I direct you to the White House Office of Management and Budget," said spokesperson Lt. Col. Carla Gleason.

 

However the hold on the aid remains in place, as it is the White House's call whether to lift it, the administration official said, fueling uncertainty within the administration about what will happen to the spending after the review is formally completed.

In the meantime, agencies are authorized and encouraged to execute all processes to prepare for the obligation of those funds but must wait to obligate them until the policy review is complete and the President has made a final determination, the senior official said.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/29/politics/trump-ukraine-military-assistance/index.html?no-st=1569024017

 

 

 

[Post Oak 20555]

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Dude....”feckless coward” is our brand these days, across the board.

A civilization is not destroyed by wicked people; it is not necessary that people be wicked but only that they be spineless.

James Baldwin

[DDD Dad 14643]

Fine.  I'll curb my inner Archie Bunker and try a fucking White Claw.  But if I end up dressing like Brendan Schaub and ending every sentence with "bro" I'm going to fucking sue you people.

Then try a High Noon (single serve canned vodka sodas)

[Francisco 2.0 32585]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-trump-and-giuliani-pressured-ukraine-to-investigate-the-presidents-rivals/2019/09/20/0955801c-dbb6-11e9-a688-303693fb4b0b_story.html

 

Quote

When President Trump spoke on the telephone with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in late July, the Ukrainians had a lot at stake. They were waiting on millions in stalled military aid from the United States, and Zelensky was seeking a high-priority White House meeting with Trump.

Trump told his Ukrainian counterpart that his country could improve its image if it completed corruption cases that have “inhibited the interaction between Ukraine and the USA,” according to a readout of the call released by Kiev.

 

Quote

What neither government said publicly at the time was that Trump went even further — specifically pressing Ukraine’s president to reopen a corruption investigation involving former vice president Joe Biden’s son, according to two people familiar with the call, which is now the subject of an explosive whistleblower complaint.

Days after the two presidents spoke, Trump’s personal lawyer, Rudolph W. Giuliani, met with an aide to the Ukrainian president in Madrid and spelled out two specific cases he believed Ukraine should pursue. One was a probe of a Ukrainian gas tycoon who had Biden’s son Hunter on his board. Another was an allegation that Democrats colluded with Ukraine to release information on former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort during the 2016 election.

 

 

Quote

“Your country owes it to us and to your country to find out what really happened,” Giuliani said he told the Ukrainian president’s aide, Andriy Yermak, during the Madrid meeting. Yermak, according to Giuliani, indicated that the Ukrainians were open to pursuing the investigations. The aide reiterated the Ukrainians’ plea for a meeting with Trump, a summit that would be an important signal to Russia of Washington’s support for Ukraine.

“I talked to him about the whole package,” said Giuliani, who has been lobbying Ukrainian officials to take up the investigations since the spring. Yermak did not respond to a request for comment.

 

Spoiler

New revelations about the dual channels of pressure on Ukraine — one from the president and one from his personal attorney — are fueling questions about whether Trump used his office to try to force a foreign country to take actions damaging to his political opponents.

Giuliani said he has kept the president informed of his efforts in Ukraine for months. But he declined to say specifically what he has told the president. “My narrow interest is for the benefit of my client,” he said.

The White House declined to comment.

Asked Friday if he had discussed Biden on his call with Zelensky in July, Trump told reporters, “It doesn’t matter what I discussed,” adding: “Someone ought to look into Joe Biden.”

National security experts said Trump’s pressure on Ukraine was highly inappropriate.

“This is requesting assistance from a foreign government to tarnish your political rival and opening the door to outside interference in our politics and elections,” said David Kramer, a former State Department official responsible for Russia and Central Europe during the George W. Bush administration.

Giuliani said Trump did not threaten to withhold U.S. funds for Ukraine if the country did not investigate Biden and Democrats.

“He didn’t do that. President Trump didn’t do that,” Giuliani said this week.

However, the Trump administration has held Zelensky at arm’s length since his election in April.

Trump refused to set a firm date for an Oval Office meeting with the newly minted Ukrainian president at the White House — a sit-down that Ukraine has urgently sought to demonstrate Washington’s backing as it fights a long-simmering war with Russian-backed proxies in its east.

U.S. officials and members of the Trump administration wanted the meeting to go ahead, but Trump personally rejected efforts to set it up, according to three people familiar with the discussions.

By the time Trump and Zelensky spoke during the July 25 telephone call, the meeting at the White House still hadn’t been set. Soon after, it was disclosed that the White House had put a hold on $250 million in military aid for Ukraine after Trump ordered a review of the assistance package.

Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wis.) told Zelensky this month in a Kiev meeting that the aid was being held back because Trump was concerned about corruption and thought the Europeans should provide Ukraine more assistance, according to Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.), who was in attendance, as well as an aide to Johnson.

A former senior administration official who repeatedly discussed the issue with Trump said that the president thought “what we were doing in Ukraine was pointless and just aggravating the Russians.”

“The president’s position basically is, we should recognize the fact that the Russians should be our friends, and who cares about the Ukrainians?” said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe private conversations.

Meanwhile, throughout the spring and summer, Giuliani was pressing the Ukrainian government behind the scenes, gathering information about Biden and briefing Trump on his findings, he said in several interviews with The Washington Post.

At one point this year, the former New York mayor had planned a trip to Ukraine, but it was scuttled amid criticism about the propriety of his visit. Instead, he has made his case in phone calls and meetings with Ukrainian officials in New York and Madrid.

Giuliani said he was operating in his personal capacity as Trump’s lawyer, although he said the State Department help put him in touch with Yermak.

The State Department did not respond to request for comment.

U.S. Embassy officials in Kiev repeatedly expressed concerns about the contacts between Giuliani and Ukrainian officials. They have not been privy to most of the discussions, and at times, have only learned later from the Ukrainians, who said they were unsure if Giuliani was officially speaking for the U.S. government, according to two officials with knowledge of the matter.

Giuliani has pushed Ukrainian officials to renew an investigation into the activities of Hunter Biden, who served on the board of a Ukrainian gas producer while his father handled U.S.-Ukraine policy.

In particular, Giuliani has alleged Biden advocated for the firing of a Ukrainian prosecutor who at one point had overseen an anti-corruption probe of the gas producer’s owner. However, the case had been dormant before the prosecutor’s firing, according to former Ukrainian and U.S. officials, and the U.S. ambassador at the time publicly called for the case against the gas tycoon to proceed.

Yuri Lutsenko, the former Ukrainian prosecutor general, told Bloomberg News in May that there was no evidence of wrongdoing by Joe or Hunter Biden.

But Giuliani has said there is more to uncover, adding that his goal is to make sure Biden didn’t become president without having to answer for the issues in Ukraine.

“What I’m saying to him: You’re not getting from here to the presidency without answering these questions,” Giuliani said in May of his efforts. “The president’s counsel is entitled to develop evidence.”

Biden has denied any wrongdoing.

“Not one single credible outlet has given any credibility to these assertions,” the former vice president said in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, Friday. “Not one single one.”

Giuliani has also urged Ukraine to investigate whether Democrats colluded with Ukrainian authorities during the 2016 election to put out information damaging to Manafort, who is now serving a 7½-year prison sentence for financial crimes related to lobbying he did for a Russia-aligned politician in Ukraine.

In all, Giuliani said he has had about five conversations this year with Yermak, the aide to Zelensky. He said Yermak was concerned that Trump had not met with the Ukrainians and was “embarrassed” at the lack of a meeting — and wanted to make sure “nothing is wrong.”

At the Madrid meeting this summer, Giuliani said he did not address the topic of U.S. aid. “I was not involved in the aid at all,” he said. “I had no idea the $250 million was on the table.”

Giuliani said he left the meeting with the impression that the Ukrainians would pursue the cases he has pushed them to take up. “He told me he would make sure things were investigated appropriately but they would need some time to appoint a new prosecutor,” Giuliani said.

Yermak told the New York Times last month that the new government in Ukraine was committed to fairly investigating possible crimes but all decisions had to wait until the country had a new top prosecutor.

People close to Zelensky have told American officials that if there is a case to pursue, they will follow it and the law — an attempt by Zelensky and his aides to avoid getting drawn into a partisan political fight in the United States.

“For us, the important thing is to not get involved,” said one Ukrainian official earlier this summer, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

“There is nothing good that can come from this,” he added. “I don’t want us to be used.”

During the Kiev meeting with Zelensky this month, Murphy said there was “a large level of discomfort from the outreach of the president’s political team. The embassy didn’t know what to do with it either.”

“I heard they were confused and vexed about what they should do by these requests,” Murphy said Friday. “This is a brand-new president, and he starts getting requests from the president’s political team to do investigation. My concern was definitely validated by the conversations I had in Kiev.”

When they spoke, Zelensky also stressed the importance of a meeting with Trump, adding that he did not want to be drawn into the 2020 presidential election, Murphy said.

Zelensky did not respond to requests for comment Friday.

The two presidents had been scheduled to meet in Warsaw earlier this month until Trump called off the trip, citing Hurricane Dorian’s projected landfall in the United States.

Vice President Pence went in his place. Asked by reporters on the trip if he brought up Biden with his meeting with Zelensky, Pence said he did not. But he connected the delayed military aid to Ukraine’s actions on corruption.

“As President Trump had me make clear, we have great concerns about issues of corruption,” the vice president said. “The president wants to be assured that those resources are truly making their way to the kind of investments that will contribute to security and stability in Ukraine. And that’s an expectation the American people have and the president has expressed very clearly.”

Days later, on Sept. 12, the U.S. aid package was delivered to Ukraine and announced the following day by Zelensky at a political conference.

Zelensky thanked Trump for releasing the $250 million in aid, noting that another $140 million was included as well, adding, “Now I can say that we have excellent relations with the U.S.A.”

“So I think we are really moving in the right direction and we have the right relationship with our strategic partner — the United States of America,” he added.

Zelensky and Trump are scheduled to meet on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly in New York this month. Still, the White House hasn’t set a date for an Oval Office meeting with Zelensky.

Trump’s interactions with Zelensky are part of the whistleblower complaint by an intelligence official that is at the center of a showdown between the executive branch and Congress. Administration officials have refused to divulge any information about the substance of an Aug. 12 report to the inspector general of the U.S. intelligence community.

Earlier this month, House Democrats launched an investigation into whether Trump sought to pressure Ukraine into investigating Biden in exchange for receiving U.S. foreign aid.

Giuliani said he does not believe House Democrats are acting in “good faith” and said the administration’s resistance to sharing more information is justified.

“Congress doesn’t have a decent purpose in getting it. They’re a bunch of headhunters and have lost any credibility,” Giuliani said, adding: “They’re desperately trying to revive their false story about Russian collusion. It’s not a legal issue, it’s a political issue.”

 

[Brandywine 1330]

3 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Do we pay the bills for this country or not? Who cares if it is college football season, the Downton Abbey movie is scheduled to drop, and the kids have school. We (this is a collective 'we' minus the dolts) are American citizens and there has got to be enough beer and beef in the entire US of A to caravan to the WH and tailgate until that MF is out the door. Some marketing genius can come up with a catchy slogan, but if the Boomers and DJ aren't going to handle this, then a massive pig roast held by Americans from the fifty states ought to get their attention. Make sure someone brings a little crockpot of terrapin soup as a nod to Mitch.

Hopefully not the marketing genius that came up with Stronger Together. Dems are weak when it comes to slogans. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19453]

7 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

I have a hard time believing she doesn't have some sort of plan but i sure as fuck can't figure out what it is.

It’s obvious she’s as wrapped up in dirty Russian money as dotard.

[Pig Bellmont 8884]

This is where I am:

 

[hayden_horn 11402]

10 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

This is where I am:

 

yeah, it's pretty basic.

[Keef 873]

Democrats are playing not to lose in 2020 and it’s infuriating. Run, run, run, punt isn’t an effective strategy against rampant corruption and an opponent willing to do whatever it takes. 

[hayden_horn 11402]

4 minutes ago, Keef said:

Democrats are playing not to lose in 2020 and it’s infuriating. Run, run, run, punt isn’t an effective strategy against rampant corruption and an opponent willing to do whatever it takes. 

republicans are the SEC. they've figured out how to game the system, both in terms of message and execution of strategy. it helps that the voting bases largely align.

[atomheartbevo 90634]

6 hours ago, triplehorn said:

there is no bottom

[hayden_horn 11402]

1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

the ultimate bottom, both figuratively and literally.

[triplehorn 2664]

Two quotes from the WaPo article above that jumped out at me:

1) 

A former senior administration official who repeatedly discussed the issue with Trump said that the president thought “what we were doing in Ukraine was pointless and just aggravating the Russians.”

“The president’s position basically is, we should recognize the fact that the Russians should be our friends, and who cares about the Ukrainians?” said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe private conversations.

2)

People close to Zelensky have told American officials that if there is a case to pursue, they will follow it and the law — an attempt by Zelensky and his aides to avoid getting drawn into a partisan political fight in the United States.

“For us, the important thing is to not get involved,” said one Ukrainian official earlier this summer, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

“There is nothing good that can come from this,” he added. “I don’t want us to be used.”

 

-------> This afternoon I was entertaining the idea that Zelensky could be on the take wrt to very recently announced plans for some kind of military withdrawal from Eastern Ukraine where a war has been smoldering with Russia for several years.  The article above doesn't really convey that.  But absent some Russian concessions on returning Crimea, it makes no sense that Ukraine would withdraw while having US and European military and financial support.  I want to understand that better.

Recall that the GOP platform got reversed by Trump reps at the RNC convention in the summer of 2016 to weaken US military support for Ukraine to oppose Russian aggression.  Then there was that "peace plan" arranged and hand delivered by Trump real estate partner Felix Sater, Michael Cohen, and pro-Putin Ukrainian Artemenko.  That one got scuttled and denied in a shroud of secrecy.  

The Rudy/Biden stuff is right there in plain sight.  It's less clear what ties exist between military conflict w Russia, US military financial aid, and plans around withdrawal from E Ukraine.  Clearly the military financial aid was possibly being used by Trump to manipulate Zelensky, so good chance it's tied in considering how consistent the thread has been between Trump and strategies favorable to Putin's incursions into Ukraine. 

And Rudy comes off as a fucking liar stating he knew nothing about the $250M military assistance in the balance for Ukraine.  jesus.

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by triplehorn

[irishtexan 11710]

18 hours ago, housious said:

Maybe you should go post about pizzagate somewhere. Because you belong in that crowd. 

You negged me for suggesting that pos-rep should be disabled in Cloak Room. You have 21 reputations given out as far back as your history goes. All of them neg reps for seemingly totally innocuous shit. Stop shit posting. Stop negging people. Fucking go away. You're worse than futureman. 

[brown water 3788]

9 hours ago, triplehorn said:

Two quotes from the WaPo article above that jumped out at me:

1) 

A former senior administration official who repeatedly discussed the issue with Trump said that the president thought “what we were doing in Ukraine was pointless and just aggravating the Russians.”

“The president’s position basically is, we should recognize the fact that the Russians should be our friends, and who cares about the Ukrainians?” said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe private conversations.

2)

People close to Zelensky have told American officials that if there is a case to pursue, they will follow it and the law — an attempt by Zelensky and his aides to avoid getting drawn into a partisan political fight in the United States.

“For us, the important thing is to not get involved,” said one Ukrainian official earlier this summer, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

“There is nothing good that can come from this,” he added. “I don’t want us to be used.”

 

-------> This afternoon I was entertaining the idea that Zelensky could be on the take wrt to very recently announced plans for some kind of military withdrawal from Eastern Ukraine where a war has been smoldering with Russia for several years.  The article above doesn't really convey that.  But absent some Russian concessions on returning Crimea, it makes no sense that Ukraine would withdraw while having US and European military and financial support.  I want to understand that better.

Recall that the GOP platform got reversed by Trump reps at the RNC convention in the summer of 2016 to weaken US military support for Ukraine to oppose Russian aggression.  Then there was that "peace plan" arranged and hand delivered by Trump real estate partner Felix Sater, Michael Cohen, and pro-Putin Ukrainian Artemenko.  That one got scuttled and denied in a shroud of secrecy.  

The Rudy/Biden stuff is right there in plain sight.  It's less clear what ties exist between military conflict w Russia, US military financial aid, and plans around withdrawal from E Ukraine.  Clearly the military financial aid was possibly being used by Trump to manipulate Zelensky, so good chance it's tied in considering how consistent the thread has been between Trump and strategies favorable to Putin's incursions into Ukraine. 

And Rudy comes off as a fucking liar stating he knew nothing about the $250M military assistance in the balance for Ukraine.  jesus.

 

We’ve jumped from Idiocracy to Tommy Boy 

 

[triplehorn 2664]

This is shaping to be Trump attempting to do to Zelensky what Putin did to Trump - create compromise, hold blackmail.  

Organized crime uses compromise in such a way that it's a two way street.  The blackmailer gets something they want.  In return for being held in a blackmail position, the compromised is guaranteed something positively reinforcing in return.  For example: lots of money, lots of sex and/or access to cheap drugs, or power protection.

What Trump appears to have engaged Zelensky over would compromise Zelensky and make him beholden to Trump, and by direct extension, Putin.

This is straight transnational criminal organization playbook.

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by triplehorn

[triplehorn 2664]

With an eye on Ukraine seeking future NATO membership, it appears Zelensky has good reason to not corruptly conspire with Trump/Putin. 

Forbes article on status of Ukraine conflict w Russia over Donbass region wrt new president Zelensky:

 

 

[NWBuck 8629]

They're dealing with Russia trying to take over Donbass.

We're dealing with letting Russia take over a Dumbass.

[triplehorn 2664]

This former Ukrainian politician is a witness to Rudy's corrupt meddling with Ukraine to benefit Trump's re-election campaign and to re-habilitate Manafort's past criminal involvement with a deposed leader (in a likely attempt to justify a pardon).

He has expressed willingness to testify to Congress.  Here's his Washington Post Op-ed:

Rudy Giuliani accused me of exposing Paul Manafort’s Ukraine deals to help U.S. Democrats. That’s a lie.

 

September 21, 2019 at 1:57 p.m. PDT

Serhiy Leshchenko is a Ukrainian journalist and political activist.

On Aug. 19, 2016, I convened a news conference in Kiev at which I revealed previously secret records of payments made by the former pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych to Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort. (Yanukovych fled the country in February 2014 after he was toppled by our Revolution of Dignity, a popular uprising on the streets of Kiev.) The information came from the “black ledger of the Party of Regions,” which was obtained by an anonymous source in the burned-out ruins of the headquarters of Yanukoych’s party. Yanukovych had used the ledger to keep records of his illegal transactions. At that time, although I was a member of parliament, I continued to combine that position with my journalistic work, which is allowed by the laws of Ukraine.

I will always be angry at Manafort. His work contributed greatly to Yanukovych’s election victory in 2010; Yanukovych then used his position as president to enrich himself and his inner circle. I have no doubt that Yanukovych paid Manafort for his services out of the funds he robbed from Ukrainian taxpayers.

Corruption is harmful whether it takes place America or Ukraine. My desire to expose Manafort’s doings was motivated by the desire for justice. Neither Hillary Clinton, nor Joe Biden, nor John Podesta, nor George Soros asked me to publish the information from the black ledger. I wanted to obtain accountability for the lobbyist whose client immersed Ukraine in a blood bath during the Revolution of Dignity and the subsequent war in eastern Ukraine, when Yanukovych called on Russia to send troops.

A federal judge in the United States later sentenced Manafort to 7½ years in prison for his many crimes. Among his offenses was his non-payment of taxes on undeclared income whose origins were revealed by Yanukovych’s secret accounts.

Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine the Manafort revelations would become fodder for the U.S. elections in 2020. President Trump’s lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani, the mouthpiece of this campaign, is not only attempting to rehabilitate Manafort but is also working to undermine U.S. relations with Ukraine, which has been confronting Russian aggression on its own for more than five years. Giuliani and his associates are trying to drag our newly elected president, Volodymyr Zelensky, into a conflict between two foreign political parties, drastically limiting Ukraine’s room for maneuver in respect to the United States, perhaps its most important international partner.

Giuliani attempted to visit Ukraine in May 2019 with the express purpose of involving Zelensky in this process. His aim was quite clear: He was planning to ask Zelensky to intervene in an American election on the side of Trump.

Zelensky refused, forcing Giuliani to cancel his trip. Shortly after that, Giuliani went on Fox News, where he called me “[an enemy] of the president [and] of the United States.” This accusation had a devastating effect on my political career. I had been helping Zelenksy’s team since January — but now Giuliani’s smear cost me a job in the new administration. Not wanting to create problems for Zelensky, I withdrew from consideration.

Giuliani's entire approach is built on disinformation and the manipulation of facts. Giuliani has developed a conspiracy theory in which he depicts my revelations about Manafort as an intervention in the 2016 U.S. election in favor of the Democratic Party. In his May interview on Fox, Giuliani even claimed that I was convicted of a corresponding crime.

The facts do not support this allegation. Here’s the truth: The administrative court — which has long had a reputation as the most corrupt in Ukraine — ruled in December 2018 that I had acted illegally by disclosing the payments to Manafort. We appealed, and the verdict was suspended. And in the summer of this year, we won the appeal and the court’s decision was completely annulled. The appeal concluded that all the charges against me were unfounded, and even obliged my opponents to reimburse me for $100 in legal costs.

But Giuliani continues to quote this court decision even though it never attained legal force.

Giuliani also persists in claiming that the “black ledger” is a fake. He stated this most recently just a few days ago in an interview with CNN. In fact, the book is a genuine document. Expert examinations have confirmed the authenticity of the signatures shown in it.

Giuliani has also been attacking the fearless activists from our Anti-Corruption Action Center, who managed to uphold their ideals even though they were persecuted by the previous government of President Petro Poroshenko.

By repeating this lie, Giuliani is not only deceiving American citizens. He is not only intervening in Ukrainian politics, smearing parliamentarians and officials of the presidential administration. He is also trying to drag the new president of Ukraine into an American election, which is absolutely unacceptable.

I know that leaders of the three U.S. congressional committees that are now investigating the whistleblower case have asked the White House and the State Department to share all correspondence regarding the people involved in this story, including me. As a person who has had direct experience of many of these events, I express my readiness to testify to the U.S. Congress about what has been happening for the past six months in the gray zone of Ukrainian-American relations.

[Fudge Nuggets 19453]

12 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

This former Ukrainian politician is a witness to Rudy's corrupt meddling with Ukraine to benefit Trump's re-election campaign and to re-habilitate Manafort's past criminal involvement with a deposed leader (in a likely attempt to justify a pardon).

He has expressed willingness to testify to Congress.  Here's his Washington Post Op-ed:

Rudy Giuliani accused me of exposing Paul Manafort’s Ukraine deals to help U.S. Democrats. That’s a lie.

 

September 21, 2019 at 1:57 p.m. PDT

Serhiy Leshchenko is a Ukrainian journalist and political activist.

On Aug. 19, 2016, I convened a news conference in Kiev at which I revealed previously secret records of payments made by the former pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych to Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort. (Yanukovych fled the country in February 2014 after he was toppled by our Revolution of Dignity, a popular uprising on the streets of Kiev.) The information came from the “black ledger of the Party of Regions,” which was obtained by an anonymous source in the burned-out ruins of the headquarters of Yanukoych’s party. Yanukovych had used the ledger to keep records of his illegal transactions. At that time, although I was a member of parliament, I continued to combine that position with my journalistic work, which is allowed by the laws of Ukraine.

I will always be angry at Manafort. His work contributed greatly to Yanukovych’s election victory in 2010; Yanukovych then used his position as president to enrich himself and his inner circle. I have no doubt that Yanukovych paid Manafort for his services out of the funds he robbed from Ukrainian taxpayers.

Corruption is harmful whether it takes place America or Ukraine. My desire to expose Manafort’s doings was motivated by the desire for justice. Neither Hillary Clinton, nor Joe Biden, nor John Podesta, nor George Soros asked me to publish the information from the black ledger. I wanted to obtain accountability for the lobbyist whose client immersed Ukraine in a blood bath during the Revolution of Dignity and the subsequent war in eastern Ukraine, when Yanukovych called on Russia to send troops.

A federal judge in the United States later sentenced Manafort to 7½ years in prison for his many crimes. Among his offenses was his non-payment of taxes on undeclared income whose origins were revealed by Yanukovych’s secret accounts.

Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine the Manafort revelations would become fodder for the U.S. elections in 2020. President Trump’s lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani, the mouthpiece of this campaign, is not only attempting to rehabilitate Manafort but is also working to undermine U.S. relations with Ukraine, which has been confronting Russian aggression on its own for more than five years. Giuliani and his associates are trying to drag our newly elected president, Volodymyr Zelensky, into a conflict between two foreign political parties, drastically limiting Ukraine’s room for maneuver in respect to the United States, perhaps its most important international partner.

Giuliani attempted to visit Ukraine in May 2019 with the express purpose of involving Zelensky in this process. His aim was quite clear: He was planning to ask Zelensky to intervene in an American election on the side of Trump.

Zelensky refused, forcing Giuliani to cancel his trip. Shortly after that, Giuliani went on Fox News, where he called me “[an enemy] of the president [and] of the United States.” This accusation had a devastating effect on my political career. I had been helping Zelenksy’s team since January — but now Giuliani’s smear cost me a job in the new administration. Not wanting to create problems for Zelensky, I withdrew from consideration.

Giuliani's entire approach is built on disinformation and the manipulation of facts. Giuliani has developed a conspiracy theory in which he depicts my revelations about Manafort as an intervention in the 2016 U.S. election in favor of the Democratic Party. In his May interview on Fox, Giuliani even claimed that I was convicted of a corresponding crime.

The facts do not support this allegation. Here’s the truth: The administrative court — which has long had a reputation as the most corrupt in Ukraine — ruled in December 2018 that I had acted illegally by disclosing the payments to Manafort. We appealed, and the verdict was suspended. And in the summer of this year, we won the appeal and the court’s decision was completely annulled. The appeal concluded that all the charges against me were unfounded, and even obliged my opponents to reimburse me for $100 in legal costs.

But Giuliani continues to quote this court decision even though it never attained legal force.

Giuliani also persists in claiming that the “black ledger” is a fake. He stated this most recently just a few days ago in an interview with CNN. In fact, the book is a genuine document. Expert examinations have confirmed the authenticity of the signatures shown in it.

Giuliani has also been attacking the fearless activists from our Anti-Corruption Action Center, who managed to uphold their ideals even though they were persecuted by the previous government of President Petro Poroshenko.

By repeating this lie, Giuliani is not only deceiving American citizens. He is not only intervening in Ukrainian politics, smearing parliamentarians and officials of the presidential administration. He is also trying to drag the new president of Ukraine into an American election, which is absolutely unacceptable.

I know that leaders of the three U.S. congressional committees that are now investigating the whistleblower case have asked the White House and the State Department to share all correspondence regarding the people involved in this story, including me. As a person who has had direct experience of many of these events, I express my readiness to testify to the U.S. Congress about what has been happening for the past six months in the gray zone of Ukrainian-American relations.

Can you shorten that to 240 characters?  Thnx.

[DixonHur 11959]

[Crusher 127]

I don't hear one word about Joe Biden in this.  If this guy Serhiy Leshchenko is for real he would remember Joe Biden holding Ukraine hostage for $1 billion over the firing of one Ukrainian Prosecutor who just happened to be investigating Joe's son Hunter. 

Joe admits it.