Surly AL MVP

[Beau Vine 55,026]

I predict that this thread will go full retard.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Beau Vine

[DaysOff 8,032]

Astros fan

It's Trout

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

13 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

Astros fan

It's Trout

Same.  

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

This one is close. Trout and Bregman produced approximately equal value (based on bWAR and fWAR). 

Trout produced more value/game - in games in which he participated. However, he also produced no value whatsoever in nearly 30 games (17% of the schedule). 

I'll vote for Bregman based on equivalent total value and the fact that he impacted more games - particularly by moving to SS capably and buoying an offense that was down 3 all-stars for large chunks of the season. 

 

[Helobious 9,516]

Trout is so valuable that he’s never played on a team that’s accomplished anything. 9 seasons in the bigs and nothing to show for it but fancy sabermetric numbers. Not even so much as 1 playoff victory. 
 

In my unbiased opinion DJ Lamahieu should win it. Strong case for Bergman too. 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

7 minutes ago, Helobious said:

 

In my unbiased opinion DJ Lamahieu should win it. Strong case for Bergman too. 

Lay off the crack

[henrygandorf 29,201]

reasons bregman should win:

1. switched positions and played both very well

2. held the lineup together while correa, springer, altuve, and diaz missed extended time

3. if we're to believe war, then we may not win the division without bregman, and homefield is huge this year

 

reasons trout should win:

1. because he will

 

people compare this to jordan or lebron, basically saying "he's the best player on the planet, so any year he doesn't get it, we're just acknowledging someone else having a great year for a good team."  the thing is, lebron and jordan did a pretty good job getting their team to the finals or more.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

4 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

reasons bregman should win:

1. switched positions and played both very well

2. held the lineup together while correa, springer, altuve, and diaz missed extended time

3. if we're to believe war, then we may not win the division without bregman, and homefield is huge this year

 

reasons trout should win:

1. because he will

 

people compare this to jordan or lebron, basically saying "he's the best player on the planet, so any year he doesn't get it, we're just acknowledging someone else having a great year for a good team."  the thing is, lebron and jordan did a pretty good job getting their team to the finals or more.

Basketball and baseball ain’t the same thing.  Jordan and Lebron can drag 4 bums into the playoffs.   Trout is the beat player in baseball.  And the difference between him and #2 is greater than #2 and #3.  

[The Dog 44,321]

Bregman. Trout sucks in the clutch.

 

Also, Bregman is the starting 3rd baseman AND shortstop (because Correa made of glass) which are harder to play than OF.

[Helobious 9,516]

27 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Basketball and baseball ain’t the same thing.  Jordan and Lebron can drag 4 bums into the playoffs.   Trout is the beat player in baseball.  And the difference between him and #2 is greater than #2 and #3.  

You'd think Trout could drag his team to at least one fucking Wild Card game win or something if he's so great. He hasn't even been able to do that. 

[Beau Vine 55,026]

47 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

reasons bregman should win:

3. if we're to believe war, then we may not win the division without bregman

 

Say what?

[Mez2 4,037]

Bregs!

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

1 hour ago, Helobious said:

You'd think Trout could drag his team to at least one fucking Wild Card game win or something if he's so great. He hasn't even been able to do that. 

Eh...no. 

He's never been on a team with good pitching. He's never been on a team with a particularly deep lineup. A guy who gets 1/9 of his team's plate appearances and doesn't pitch can't drag his team to the playoffs. It's just not how baseball works. 

Trout is certainly the best player in baseball and has been since his rookie season. 

[DaysOff 8,032]

You'd think Trout could drag his team to at least one fucking Wild Card game win or something if he's so great. He hasn't even been able to do that. 

How little do you know about baseball?

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

2 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

reasons bregman should win:

1. switched positions and played both very well

2. held the lineup together while correa, springer, altuve, and diaz missed extended time

3. if we're to believe war, then we may not win the division without bregman, and homefield is huge this year

 

reasons trout should win:

1. because he will

 

people compare this to jordan or lebron, basically saying "he's the best player on the planet, so any year he doesn't get it, we're just acknowledging someone else having a great year for a good team."  the thing is, lebron and jordan did a pretty good job getting their team to the finals or more.

Baseball isn't comparable to basketball in that one player can't make a team a contender single handedly. However, I think since the MVP has moved to mostly sabermetrics, it has left a few things out. One MVP quality in every other sport is making other players better and clubhouse presence. Not only was Bregman playing a different position when Springer and Correa were out, he was also very supportive of the AAA guys who were called up, and they played better than expected because of it. The Astros have the best clubhouse in the game though so making other players better isn't all or even mostly Bregman's doing.

Trout is supposedly a nice guy, but he clearly isn't helping anyone around him play better. Someone like Simmons would probably have a career year if they played for the Astros. It isn't all Luhnow. 

 

[Beau Vine 55,026]

19 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Baseball isn't comparable to basketball in that one player can't make a team a contender single handedly. However, I think since the MVP has moved to mostly sabermetrics, it has left a few things out. One MVP quality in every other sport is making other players better and clubhouse presence. Not only was Bregman playing a different position when Springer and Correa were out, he was also very supportive of the AAA guys who were called up, and they played better than expected because of it. The Astros have the best clubhouse in the game though so making other players better isn't all or even mostly Bregman's doing.

Trout is supposedly a nice guy, but he clearly isn't helping anyone around him play better. Someone like Simmons would probably have a career year if they played for the Astros. It isn't all Luhnow. 

 

Jesus Christ.  This reads like Liucci talking about Jimbo.  

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

5 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Jesus Christ.  This reads like Liucci talking about Jimbo.  

Jimbo is a coach. We are talking about players.  Camaraderie matters in sports. 

It's more like how Vince Young got everyone else to step up. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

Yeah, come on now...you can't blame Trout for Pujols being old or for Ohtani being hurt or for Kole Calhoun being the next best player on the roster. Just like you can't give Bregman credit for Springer, Altuve and Yordan being badasses. 

Also - SImmons' 2 best seasons have come as an Angel. But you can't give Trout credit for those. 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

12 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Yeah, come on now...you can't blame Trout for Pujols being old or for Ohtani being hurt or for Kole Calhoun being the next best player on the roster. Just like you can't give Bregman credit for Springer, Altuve and Yordan being badasses. 

Also - SImmons' 2 best seasons have come as an Angel. But you can't give Trout credit for those. 

Springer, Altuve, and Correa were hurt for quite a while. Bregman carried the team, and helped and supported AAA reaches like Mayfield and Straw. And those guys contributed above their level. It isn't just about the times when Springer is healthy and hitting moonshots. 

I'll give Trout credit for Simmons best 2 seasons. They still aren't what they could be. 

But again, I already said it wasn't all or probably even mostly Bregman. The Astros have the best clubhouse in baseball.  

Does Trout help other players with their swings?  Maybe he does. Haven't heard it though. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[WBT 20,776]

Attendance matters.  I was saying Trout all year but Bregman closed the gap on WAR enough that voting for him is justified imo.

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

4 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Springer, Altuve, and Correa were hurt for quite a while. Bregman carried the team, and helped and supported AAA reaches like Mayfield and Straw. And those guys contributed above their level. It isn't just about the times when Springer is healthy and hitting moonshots. 

I'll give Trout credit for Simmons best 2 seasons. They still aren't what they could be. 

But again, I already said it wasn't all or probably even mostly Bregman. The Astros have the best clubhouse in baseball.  

Does Trout help other players with their swings?  Maybe he does. Haven't heard it though. 

Is there any reason to think that Bregman helps other players get better and that Trout doesn't? I don't see any basis for this belief. 

Also, Mayfield hit .156. Again, not Bregman's fault. 

[Beau Vine 55,026]

11 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Does Trout help other players with their swings?  Maybe he does. Haven't heard it though. 

Maybe you would have if you had 500 posts in the CA Angels Season thread, huh?

Quote

Bregman carried the team, and helped and supported AAA reaches like Mayfield and Straw.

Shit dude, this is again Liucci-level analysis.  Mayfield had a 916 OPS in AAA and OPSed 497 with the Astros.  Yet you're giving Bregman credit for his "performance?"  WTF???

[Goo Punch 4,275]

3 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

reasons bregman should win:

1. switched positions and played both very well

2. held the lineup together while correa, springer, altuve, and diaz missed extended time

3. if we're to believe war, then we may not win the division without bregman, and homefield is huge this year

 

reasons trout should win:

1. because he will

 

people compare this to jordan or lebron, basically saying "he's the best player on the planet, so any year he doesn't get it, we're just acknowledging someone else having a great year for a good team."  the thing is, lebron and jordan did a pretty good job getting their team to the finals or more.

which brings up the MVP vs MOP debate. Each major pro sports league should come out and clarify exactly what the criteria is for their MOP/MVP award. 

[Goo Punch 4,275]

3 hours ago, Helobious said:

You'd think Trout could drag his team to at least one fucking Wild Card game win or something if he's so great. He hasn't even been able to do that. 

lol, yeah it's Mike Trout's fault that his team sucks. okie silly dilly dokie o.

[Pimphand 6,090]

The Angels wasted peak Nolan Ryan getting to the playoffs once in his tenure. What is to make you think they won't waste peak Mike Trout in much the same way?

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

3 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Is there any reason to think that Bregman helps other players get better and that Trout doesn't? I don't see any basis for this belief. 

Also, Mayfield hit .156. Again, not Bregman's fault. 

He works with players and also talks them up to the media. I haven't seen Trout do that, but then I am also not in the LA media market. 

But again, it isn't just Bregman. And I actually think Bregman is now that way because Altuve was that way for him. Altuve is probably why the Astros clubhouse is the way it is. Bregman seemed like kind of a selfish asshole if you look at some of the shit he did prior to making the big leagues. He isn't now though. He is out there pushing his teammates to be better, and this year he was doing that while the team had tons of key injuries. 

Trout seems more like a guy that comes to work, does his job, and goes home.  He doesn't take time out to go help other coworkers do their jobs better.  But if you are in LA maybe you know different. That type of shit doesn't make national news. 

Fuck it though. Changed my mind. Altuve should win it. He built that clubhouse. He is why Bregman is the way he is now. He's also why Verlander, Cole, and Greinke are working on pitches together, and why all of them were riveted and cheering when Will Harris pitched an immaculate inning. Hell, Springer even used Altuve's bat for a while when he was in a slump in 2017.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

5 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Maybe you would have if you had 500 posts in the CA Angels Season thread, huh?

Shit dude, this is again Liucci-level analysis.  Mayfield had a 916 OPS in AAA and OPSed 497 with the Astros.  Yet you're giving Bregman credit for his "performance?"  WTF???

Who are the CA Angels?  Is this 1983?

Mayfield had key hits when needed. Didn't need him to hit all the time. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[WBT 20,776]

Are you ok?

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

1 minute ago, WBT said:

Are you ok?

Ok?  I'm doing great. Your mom says I'm spectacular even. 

[Helobious 9,516]

Jeter is an example of someone that made his teammates better. He played on some loaded teams, but Jeter’s outstanding character, leadership, & intangibles helped his teammates to up their game’s even more. 

Trout doesn’t seem to have/do any of that. While Trout is arguably a better overall baseball player than Jeter, he doesn’t have half of Jeter’s leadership or charisma.

[Goo Punch 4,275]

3 hours ago, Helobious said:

Jeter is an example of someone that made his teammates better. He played on some loaded teams, but Jeter’s outstanding character, leadership, & intangibles helped his teammates to up their game’s even more. 

Trout doesn’t seem to have/do any of that. While Trout is arguably a better overall baseball player than Jeter, he doesn’t have half of Jeter’s leadership or charisma.

[Goo Punch 4,275]

That was literally the dumbest post you've ever made. 

[Scraps 13,603]

9 hours ago, WBT said:

Attendance matters.  I was saying Trout all year but Bregman closed the gap on WAR enough that voting for him is justified imo.

Honestly this is my main reason to go Bregman.  I reward the players who can show up every day and get after it.  That's also why I went Bellinger over Yelich.  Yeah Yelich  had a freak injury, but being out is being out.  

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

10 hours ago, Helobious said:

Jeter is an example of someone that made his teammates better. He played on some loaded teams, but Jeter’s outstanding character, leadership, & intangibles helped his teammates to up their game’s even more. 

Again, what is this based on? This reeks of sportswriter fanfic/narrative. It's fantasy. 

10 hours ago, Helobious said:

Trout doesn’t seem to have/do any of that. 

Based on what? If was a a better "leader" could he have prevented Ohtani's or Upton's injuries? COuld he have willed Matt Harvey into a good starting pitcher?

10 hours ago, Helobious said:

While Trout is arguably a better overall baseball player than Jeter, 

It's not really an argument; Trout is a better player. That's no slight on Jeter (who was obviously a great player and easy HOFer) because Trout is better than any player since Bonds. 

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

10 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

He works with players and also talks them up to the media. I haven't seen Trout do that, but then I am also not in the LA media market. 

But again, it isn't just Bregman. And I actually think Bregman is now that way because Altuve was that way for him. Altuve is probably why the Astros clubhouse is the way it is. Bregman seemed like kind of a selfish asshole if you look at some of the shit he did prior to making the big leagues. He isn't now though. He is out there pushing his teammates to be better, and this year he was doing that while the team had tons of key injuries. 

Trout seems more like a guy that comes to work, does his job, and goes home.  He doesn't take time out to go help other coworkers do their jobs better.  But if you are in LA maybe you know different. That type of shit doesn't make national news. 

Fuck it though. Changed my mind. Altuve should win it. He built that clubhouse. He is why Bregman is the way he is now. He's also why Verlander, Cole, and Greinke are working on pitches together, and why all of them were riveted and cheering when Will Harris pitched an immaculate inning. Hell, Springer even used Altuve's bat for a while when he was in a slump in 2017.

So...Astros entire team should share the MVP award for talking to young players?

[Helobious 9,516]

13 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

It's not really an argument; Trout is a better player. That's no slight on Jeter (who was obviously a great player and easy HOFer) because Trout is better than any player since Bonds. 

I said “arguably” because Trout isn’t done playing yet. Have to leave room for the unlikely possibility that his powers magically get zapped and he starts putting up negative WAR the next few years, because baseball. But it’s far more likely he’ll end up being the greatest player to ever play. 
 

Still, it’s hard to think of a GOAT in any sport ever that never even won a playoff game. Even all the greatest baseball players found a way to at least accomplish that as far as I know. Give me Jeter & his 5 rings over Trout any day. 

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

4 minutes ago, Helobious said:

I said “arguably” because Trout isn’t done playing yet. Have to leave room for the unlikely possibility that his powers magically get zapped and he starts putting up negative WAR the next few years, because baseball. But it’s far more likely he’ll end up being the greatest player to ever play. 
 

Still, it’s hard to think of a GOAT in any sport ever that never even won a playoff game. Even all the greatest baseball players found a way to at least accomplish that as far as I know. Give me Jeter & his 5 rings over Trout any day. 

Fair point re: the remainder of Trout's career. Hell, Griffey didn't add much value to his resume after he turned 30. It happens. 

On the second point - comparing team accomplishments must account for the entire team. There is no question Jeter's title teams had far more talent than the teams Trout has been on.

This is illustrated by the fact that Trout accounts for a huge portion of his team's overall production. Here is Trout's % of his team's total (offensive) WAR for the last 5 years:

2019: 42%; 2018: 40%; 2017: 36%; 2016: 51%; 2015: 54%. Without looking it up, I'd guess that Trout's % of his team's production is much, much higher than any other player in baseball over the last 5 years. 

For comparison, here is the % of team offensive WAR that Jeter accounted for in the Yankee glory years (1996-2000):

1996: 12%; 1997: 18%; 1998: 17%; 1999: 29%; 2000: 18%

On average, Trout accounted for 45% of his team's production over the last 5 years. Jeter accounted for 19% over the years that spanned 4 of those titles. There is no comparison between the talent on those Yankees' teams and the Angels' teams. And this doesn't even account for pitching...

He can't turn 40-year old Pujols into 25-year old Pujols. He can't make Ohtani stay healthy. He can't pitch. If we are going to judge players based on team accomplishments, we need to define what they can actually do to help their team win. As great as Jeter was, he didn't somehow make Bernie Williams a great hitter or Mariano Rivera a great pitcher. 

The data very clearly indicate that Trout does more to help his team win than any other player in baseball; that they still can't make the playoffs is on his teammates and the front office. 

 

[Beau Vine 55,026]

4 hours ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Again, what is this based on? This reeks of sportswriter fanfic/narrative. It's fantasy. 

Based on what? If was a a better "leader" could he have prevented Ohtani's or Upton's injuries? COuld he have willed Matt Harvey into a good starting pitcher?

[Beau Vine 55,026]

5 hours ago, Scraps said:

Honestly this is my main reason to go Bregman.  I reward the players who can show up every day and get after it.  That's also why I went Bellinger over Yelich.  Yeah Yelich  had a freak injury, but being out is being out.  

Then why didn't you vote for Semien?  He's the only guy on the above ballot who played 162 games? He even led the majors in plate appearances.  His fWAR is also within measurement error of leading the AL. 

[Scraps 13,603]

Then why didn't you vote for Semien?  He's the only guy on the above ballot who played 162 games? He even led the majors in plate appearances.  His fWAR is also within measurement error of leading the AL. 

Sorry maybe i shouldve made clear it was the reason i picked Bregman over Trout.

 

They are the only 2 contenders.

 

Semien had a nice year, but he's not even at the same lunch table.

 

[Beau Vine 55,026]

5 minutes ago, Scraps said:

Sorry maybe i shouldve made clear it was the reason i picked Bregman over Trout.

 

They are the only 2 contenders.

 

Semien had a nice year, but he's not even at the same lunch table.

 

Really?

[Scraps 13,603]

Cool didn't realize WAR was the only determining factor of stuff. He's not a contender. Nice season, but he's not at the lunch table with Trout and Bregman

Hell even here he has 0 votes and thats saying something.

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

Semien deserves consideration, and I do think WAR is a good starting point for evaluation. There is some variance depending on the WAR methodology; if you average fWAR and bWAR you get:

Trout: 8.45

Bregman: 8.45

Semien: 7.85

Taking the average puts Trout and Bregman about a half-win better than Semien. 

[Dutchrudder 11,162]

Yeah but you're supposed to add Springer's WAR to Bregman's because he always gives him an attaboy and a slap on the ass between innings, which gives him a 14.6 and a clear lead over everyone else. 

[Mudcat35 196]

Gotta go with Bregman.  Can't pick Trout.  He's missed too much time and his team wasn't good with or without him.  How valuable was he really?

[Scraps 13,603]

Just now, Mudcat35 said:

Gotta go with Bregman.  Can't pick Trout.  He's missed too much time and his team wasn't good with or without him.  How valuable was he really?

So why didn't you pick Semien dummy???

[Huckleberry 33,674]

I'm a little confused as to why people aren't voting for Derek Jeter. I've heard he still plays the game the right way in his back yard.

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

37 minutes ago, Mudcat35 said:

Gotta go with Bregman.  Can't pick Trout.  He's missed too much time and his team wasn't good with or without him.  How valuable was he really?

About as valuable as Bregman. 

[formermav43 4,606]

2 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

About as valuable as Bregman. 

But the result of that “value” is that Trout essentially single-handedly kept the Angels from losing 100 games. His continued excellence prevents them from getting the highest draft picks possible and/or trading what assets they have to rebuild, all because of the slim hope that he can somehow carry them further. His new contract, while deserved, will only exacerbate this.

Trout is effectively the LEAST valuable player in baseball.

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

4 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Trout is effectively the LEAST valuable player in baseball.

Come on man...we know that's not true.