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The Rudy Thread

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105043

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

Did Obama have a personal lawyer?

I dunno.  But it sure as shit raises a lot of questions.

An attorney is a legal agent of the person they represent.  So, Rudy was an agent of one of two people:

1 - Donald Trump, individual citizen

2 - Donald Trump, President of the United States

If he was acting in role 1, then anything he was doing was NOT officially on behalf of the US government.....and thus is not cloaked in executive privilege or anything of that sort.  While he might have an attorney-client privilege in terms of communications, actions that would be illegal if they are NOT taken within the scope of the president's authority (think simple things here - the president can order an airstrike on a suspected terrorist training camp, killing people, and he generally can't be prosecuted for that; if private citizen Trump does that, it's a crime) are flat-out crimes, and he has taken part in the commission of those crimes.

If, on the other hand, he was acting in role 2, and was acting at the direction of the President of the United States, then any impeachable offenses committed by and through him are impeachable offenses of the President himself.

Quite the choice there, fellas.  Which one are they gonna claim?  Choose wisely......

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89618

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Chad Fuck said:

While true at the moment, I'm sure Miller has a whole file of pardons drafted up and neatly stowed right between his "Medal of Freedom for miscreants" file and his lifetime supply of personal lube, ready to go at the moment it appears Presidential power will be taken away from Trump.  

I can see that scenario for some of them, but it is still an admission of guilt, and that’s a problem for Trump.  

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Chad Fuck

Chad Fuck 17658

Posted
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, shnsajax said:

Random question, but if Rudy was to be disbarred can he still claim Attorney-Client Privilege?

As to attorney-client communicatIons he had while he was an attorney, yes the privilege still applies.

Recall, the privilege belongs to the client, not the attorney.

Edited by Chad Fuck
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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105043

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

As to attorney-client communicatIons he had while he was an attorney, yes the privilege still applies.

Recall, the privilege belongs to the client, not the attorney.

This.  Trump can assert the privilege.  There is an exception for use of the privilege to perpetrate a crime or fraud, but that's got its own proof problems.  It's a big deal to go after a party's attorney for participation in an illegal scheme. Then again, this is a big deal....and Rudy may be dirty as shit.

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lemonlime

lemonlime 5503

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, shnsajax said:

Random question, but if Rudy was to be disbarred can he still claim Attorney-Client Privilege?

Yes.  I'm utterly confused as to what legal advice and to who Rudy was offering it though?  Just because you have an esquire after your name, doesn't mean that anything you do for clients, even of a non-legal nature, is suddenly privileged.  Not sure how acting as trump's fixer or whatever the fuck Rudy was doing could possibly constitute legal services.

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Chad Fuck

Chad Fuck 17658

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, lemonlime said:

Yes.  I'm utterly confused as to what legal advice and to who Rudy was offering it though?  Just because you have an esquire after your name, doesn't mean that anything you do for clients, even of a non-legal nature, is suddenly privileged.  Not sure how acting as trump's fixer or whatever the fuck Rudy was doing could possibly constitute legal services.

But it's clear that Trump, et al. believe this is how it works.  I recall this being the case back when DOTUS and Jr. were claiming attorney client privilege existed when Jr. called DOTUS about the Trump Tower meeting (remember that?) and there was an attorney nearby.  

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105043

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, lemonlime said:

Yes.  I'm utterly confused as to what legal advice and to who Rudy was offering it though?  Just because you have an esquire after your name, doesn't mean that anything you do for clients, even of a non-legal nature, is suddenly privileged.  Not sure how acting as trump's fixer or whatever the fuck Rudy was doing could possibly constitute legal services.

His communications with Trump are privileged.  His communications with third parties on behalf of his client are not.

For example, if a client hires me, and tells me what they want to accomplish in their case, that communication is privileged.  When I call the opposition, or some other third party, and try to negotiate the deal my client wants, those communications are NOT privileged.

And, yes, whether or not Rudy was providing actual legal services may well be a fact question.  Which raises the question of what interest of the client he was trying to serve.  See, if he says that he was working with Ukrainian officials in order to obtain some benefit that his client wanted....then he's effectively admitted to the crime committed by Trump (illegally obtaining a campaign benefit or personal benefit -- seriously, if he was NOT acting as an agent of the office of president, then the ONLY benefits he could have been trying to get from a foreign power were either to benefit Trump the individual or the Trump campaign, either of which would constitute a crime).

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lemonlime

lemonlime 5503

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

But it's clear that Trump, et al. believe this is how it works.  I recall this being the case back when DOTUS and Jr. were claiming attorney client privilege existed when Jr. called DOTUS about the Trump Tower meeting (remember that?) and there was an attorney nearby.  

That could be a great side gig.  Just sit in on meetings people want to keep out of discovery.

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

His communications with Trump are privileged.  His communications with third parties on behalf of his client are not.

For example, if a client hires me, and tells me what they want to accomplish in their case, that communication is privileged.  When I call the opposition, or some other third party, and try to negotiate the deal my client wants, those communications are NOT privileged.

And, yes, whether or not Rudy was providing actual legal services may well be a fact question.  Which raises the question of what interest of the client he was trying to serve.  See, if he says that he was working with Ukrainian officials in order to obtain some benefit that his client wanted....then he's effectively admitted to the crime committed by Trump (illegally obtaining a campaign benefit or personal benefit -- seriously, if he was NOT acting as an agent of the office of president, then the ONLY benefits he could have been trying to get from a foreign power were either to benefit Trump the individual or the Trump campaign, either of which would constitute a crime).

Is Trump even his client though?  And even if Trump is, as you say, any of the communications between Rudy and Barr, Rudy and State Department officials, or Rudy and the Ukranian government wouldn't be privileged.  Although maybe Rudy was representing the Ukranian mobsters in these interactions?

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RayDog

RayDog 682

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I dunno.  But it sure as shit raises a lot of questions.

An attorney is a legal agent of the person they represent.  So, Rudy was an agent of one of two people:

1 - Donald Trump, individual citizen

2 - Donald Trump, President of the United States

If he was acting in role 1, then anything he was doing was NOT officially on behalf of the US government.....and thus is not cloaked in executive privilege or anything of that sort.  While he might have an attorney-client privilege in terms of communications, actions that would be illegal if they are NOT taken within the scope of the president's authority (think simple things here - the president can order an airstrike on a suspected terrorist training camp, killing people, and he generally can't be prosecuted for that; if private citizen Trump does that, it's a crime) are flat-out crimes, and he has taken part in the commission of those crimes.

If, on the other hand, he was acting in role 2, and was acting at the direction of the President of the United States, then any impeachable offenses committed by and through him are impeachable offenses of the President himself.

Quite the choice there, fellas.  Which one are they gonna claim?  Choose wisely......

Why not both?

Serious question. I will clarify that I expect Rudy and Trump to assert both at one time or another to confuse the issue. So what happens then.

Edited by RayDog
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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31434

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I dunno.  But it sure as shit raises a lot of questions.

An attorney is a legal agent of the person they represent.  So, Rudy was an agent of one of two people:

1 - Donald Trump, individual citizen

2 - Donald Trump, President of the United States

If he was acting in role 1, then anything he was doing was NOT officially on behalf of the US government.....and thus is not cloaked in executive privilege or anything of that sort.  While he might have an attorney-client privilege in terms of communications, actions that would be illegal if they are NOT taken within the scope of the president's authority (think simple things here - the president can order an airstrike on a suspected terrorist training camp, killing people, and he generally can't be prosecuted for that; if private citizen Trump does that, it's a crime) are flat-out crimes, and he has taken part in the commission of those crimes.

If, on the other hand, he was acting in role 2, and was acting at the direction of the President of the United States, then any impeachable offenses committed by and through him are impeachable offenses of the President himself.

Quite the choice there, fellas.  Which one are they gonna claim?  Choose wisely......

Inasmuch as the White House Counsel is the President's lawyer, I don't think Rudy can claim that he's anything but Trump's personal lawyer.

Well, wait, this is Trump, so they may call him both and the Man in the Moon, so  . . . .

I read somewhere that everyone thinks Giuliani is super smart, or was before any potential dementia set in.  But he was extraordinarily humiliated by his failure of a presidential run and couldn't stand being out of the limelight and may have become unhinged by it.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89618

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

And, yes, whether or not Rudy was providing actual legal services may well be a fact question.  Which raises the question of what interest of the client he was trying to serve.  See, if he says that he was working with Ukrainian officials in order to obtain some benefit that his client wanted....then he's effectively admitted to the crime committed by Trump (illegally obtaining a campaign benefit or personal benefit -- seriously, if he was NOT acting as an agent of the office of president, then the ONLY benefits he could have been trying to get from a foreign power were either to benefit Trump the individual or the Trump campaign, either of which would constitute a crime).

For you and the others in the legal profession, just how much shit is Rudy in, based just on what's been said and acted upon?  

He's been around professional politicians for decades, he was in SDNY, he knows ideologues like Bolton are not to be fucked with, because they can't be corrupted as far as dirty politics that they may not agree with (hence the Rudy and Mulvaney drug deal comment).  He knows that a lot of people that don't agree with he and Trump can easily go testify.

Also, the obsession with the Bidens was dangerous, because if people started asking questions about his (Rudy's) efforts to get the Bidens, as we are seeing playing out, then it exposes his other dealings.  Having done the SDNY thing, he'd know people would eventually starting running down those paper trails.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but given how much, in my non-lawyerly view, that he's fucked up, there has to be something much bigger going on to make all of this other stuff worth him taking these risks.

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21469

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

For you and the others in the legal profession, just how much shit is Rudy in, based just on what's been said and acted upon?  

He's been around professional politicians for decades, he was in SDNY, he knows ideologues like Bolton are not to be fucked with, because they can't be corrupted as far as dirty politics that they may not agree with (hence the Rudy and Mulvaney drug deal comment).  He knows that a lot of people that don't agree with he and Trump can easily go testify.

Also, the obsession with the Bidens was dangerous, because if people started asking questions about his (Rudy's) efforts to get the Bidens, as we are seeing playing out, then it exposes his other dealings.  Having done the SDNY thing, he'd know people would eventually starting running down those paper trails.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but given how much, in my non-lawyerly view, that he's fucked up, there has to be something much bigger going on to make all of this other stuff worth him taking these risks.

Not a lawyer, but I believe the answer to your question is kompramat.

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Chad Fuck

Chad Fuck 17658

Posted
Posted
For you and the others in the legal profession, just how much shit is Rudy in, based just on what's been said and acted upon?  
He's been around professional politicians for decades, he was in SDNY, he knows ideologues like Bolton are not to be fucked with, because they can't be corrupted as far as dirty politics that they may not agree with (hence the Rudy and Mulvaney drug deal comment).  He knows that a lot of people that don't agree with he and Trump can easily go testify.
Also, the obsession with the Bidens was dangerous, because if people started asking questions about his (Rudy's) efforts to get the Bidens, as we are seeing playing out, then it exposes his other dealings.  Having done the SDNY thing, he'd know people would eventually starting running down those paper trails.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but given how much, in my non-lawyerly view, that he's fucked up, there has to be something much bigger going on to make all of this other stuff worth him taking these risks.


I wonder what Dotus’s last fixer is up to?

Oh. Yeah.

Rudy still hasn’t made this connection.
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bolverk

bolverk 29644

Posted
Posted (edited)

The web of Putin/Kremlin, Russian mafia, Ukrainian money laundering, Erdogan, Turkish banker, and Iranian oil company interests seems to grow ever the more entangled.

Keep tugging on that Rudy string which seems to tie them all together.

Edited by bolverk
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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

Posted
Posted

goddamn this is bad news

This is like knowing you have a living patient with a gunshot wound to the back on the table in the OR with a chance to save because he's maintaining some pressure.  Then when you open him up, his guts heave up outside of the abdominal incision because a renal artery and a chunk of the liver are gone.

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Tuco

Tuco 5076

Posted
Posted (edited)

Some of you may remember Toensing as the go-to political hack for representing clients to generate bad press for Democrats.  One of her recent cases was representing a client who was claiming that the FBI was covering up for Hillary in the Uranium One deal.  She and her husband have been filling this role since Bill Clinton was in office. 

Edited by Tuco
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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13507

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, kevwun said:

I'm starting to think Rudy may have been up to no good.  He sure does have a lot of business partners in jail.

Trump must be uncertain to act given that its his lawyer's partners under arrest and it's his DOJ that has arrested them. He could attack rogue US Attorneys but its an AG and US Attorney that he appointed. 

Edited by Nice Guy Eddie
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wildcat09

wildcat09 29338

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

For you and the others in the legal profession, just how much shit is Rudy in, based just on what's been said and acted upon?  

He's been around professional politicians for decades, he was in SDNY, he knows ideologues like Bolton are not to be fucked with, because they can't be corrupted as far as dirty politics that they may not agree with (hence the Rudy and Mulvaney drug deal comment).  He knows that a lot of people that don't agree with he and Trump can easily go testify.

Also, the obsession with the Bidens was dangerous, because if people started asking questions about his (Rudy's) efforts to get the Bidens, as we are seeing playing out, then it exposes his other dealings.  Having done the SDNY thing, he'd know people would eventually starting running down those paper trails.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but given how much, in my non-lawyerly view, that he's fucked up, there has to be something much bigger going on to make all of this other stuff worth him taking these risks.

I actually doubt it.  He's just been scheming shady shit with mobsters for so long (and he's probably drank himself so stupid) that he thinks he'll keep getting away with it.  Hell, he probably hasn't even made that much money in all his dumb scheming, at least not compared to what a rational person would think it would have to be for them to do such legally risky shit. Rudy is a dumb conman who wears a pinky ring.  All the criming probably gives him a thrill.  

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89618

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Trump must be uncertain to act given that its his lawyer's partners under arrest and it's his DOJ that has arrested them. He could attack rogue US Attorneys but its an AG and US Attorney that he appointed. 

Speaking of relations and the AG, and this may have changed, but I always thought this was interesting (from earlier this year)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/13/politics/barr-family-justice-department-moves/index.html

Quote

Mary Daly, Barr's oldest daughter and the director of Opioid Enforcement and Prevention Efforts in the deputy attorney general's office, is leaving for a position at the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN), the Treasury Department's financial crimes unit, a Justice official said.

Tyler McGaughey, the husband of Barr's youngest daughter, has been detailed from the powerful US attorney's office in Alexandria, Virginia, to the White House counsel's office, two officials said

Quote

Daly's husband will remain in his position in the Justice Department's National Security Division for now.

Quote

However, Shaub added that McGaughey's detail to the White House counsel's office was "concerning."

"That's troubling because it raises further questions about Barr's independence," Shaub said.

 

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

Posted
Posted

Counterintelligence investigation you say??  Bob Mueller says hi.

 

Federal investigation of Rudy Giuliani includes counterintelligence probe

(CNN)For months, investigators looking into Rudy Giuliani's business dealings in Ukraine have dug into everything from possible financial entanglements with alleged corrupt Ukrainian figures to counterintelligence concerns raised by some of those business ties, according to people briefed on the matter.

The counterintelligence part of the investigation indicates that FBI and criminal prosecutors in Manhattan are looking at a broader set of issues related to Giuliani, President Donald Trump's personal attorney, than has been previously reported.

Kenneth McCallion, a New York attorney, says that investigators first approached him earlier this year to ask about Giuliani's ties to Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, two Giuliani associates indicted last week on campaign-finance related charges.

McCallion says FBI counterintelligence agents in February or March asked questions about some of Giuliani's Ukrainian business dealings.

The counterintelligence probe hinges in part on whether a foreign influence operation was trying to take advantage of Giuliani's business ties in Ukraine and with wealthy foreigners to make inroads with the White House, according to one person briefed on the matter.

[...]

The investigators in the Southern District of New York appear to have largely operated separately from what Trump's appointees at the Justice Department headquarters in Washington, DC, have pursued in recent months, and the investigation dates back far longer than what's been previously reported.

Justice Department officials last month said criminal division prosecutors in Washington had examined Trump's July call with the Ukrainian president only for the narrow issue of potential campaign finance violations and determined there was no crime. But the issue was far from closed.

At the same time, federal prosecutors in New York were aggressively pursuing broader issues related to the Ukraine matters.

cont.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105043

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Was there ever any explanation on why that guy named his company “fraud guarantee?” Is he bad at English or was it some sort of a honey trap for mobsters?

Because "Sham Corporation for the Purpose of Committing Countless Criminal Acts" didn't easily fit on a business card?

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Chooky

Chooky 13307

Posted
Posted
35 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Was there ever any explanation on why that guy named his company “fraud guarantee?” Is he bad at English or was it some sort of a honey trap for mobsters?

I'm opening a restaurant called Shitty Tacos.  What's clever about it is that we don't serve tacos at all.  It's a front.  We serve pancakes and fraud.  Well, mostly fraud, but occasionally pancakes.   

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GW Hayduke

GW Hayduke 1953

Posted
Posted (edited)

My take is the guy might be a genius.  He meets all kinds of folks in his travels, talks a bit of shop, and then gives his business card and watches for the reaction. If the person laughs and walks away, he knows it wouldn’t be an easy mark. If the person nods his head and is ok with things, then he knows the person is a fucking idiot

Edited by GW Hayduke
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Chad Fuck

Chad Fuck 17658

Posted
Posted
Sondland's testimony today isn't going to be pretty for Rudy, but I don't see Rudy offing himself - he's too much of a coward, and he still believes he is in the right.

Agree. He and Trump both adhere to the “If I do it, it must be legal/right/good” theory.
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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13507

Posted
Posted

Can Rudy simultaneously be Trump's personal lawyer AND act as a diplomat/Presidential rep?    One seems to offer Trump attorney/client privilege and the other exec privilege but I can't imagine that Trump can have both in the same relationship. 

I also think that if Rudy is acting as an US agent, then all of his communications are potentially discoverable. Perhaps he can fight it with exec privilege but that won't be his decision.

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