Accidentally shoot son in law. Is it really tho?

[crash_davis 23115]

Horrible tragedy.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-man-accidentally-shoots-kills-son-law-surprise/story?id=66031955

 

A man shot and killed his son-in-law who jumped out of the bushes to surprise him for his birthday, in what the local sheriff called a "horrible accident."

The father-in-law, Richard Dennis, will not face charges, authorities said.

 

The incident began when 37-year-old Christoper Bergan, who lives in Norway, arrived at a Florida airport around 11 p.m. Tuesday and then headed directly to his father-in-law's house in the Pensacola area, Santa Rosa County Sheriff Bob Johnson said at a news conference on Thursday.

Dennis heard banging on the back door at 11:30 p.m. and turned on the porch light, Johnson said.

Bergan then jumped "out of the shadows," Johnson said, leaping out from the bushes and making a growling sound, which scared Dennis.D

Dennisfired one round, "striking Mr. Bergan, killing him instantly," Johnson said.

[Brisketexan 105450]

Maybe.....and I'm just taking a flyer here....how Americans think about and use firearms is totally fucked up.

[Kennythetiger 9482]

You've clearly never been attacked by a werewolf.  

[Brisketexan 105450]

11 minutes ago, Kennythetiger said:

You've clearly never been attacked by a werewolf.  

Well, yeah.... I know not to go hiking through the moors.

 

But....I mean.....if you DO get bitten.....it ain't ALL bad....

Edited October 4, 2019 by Brisketexan

[Al_4_ISU 12504]

19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Maybe.....and I'm just taking a flyer here....how Americans think about and use firearms is totally fucked up.

Feral hogs, man.

Feral hogs.

[housious 468]

That's going to be an awkward thanksgiving dinner

[Beau Vine 54468]

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Maybe.....and I'm just taking a flyer here....how Americans think about and use firearms is totally fucked up.

I dunno, banging on someone's back door at 11:30pm, hiding in the bushes, leaping out and growling?  guy was doing about as much as he could do to get shot,  short of disguising himself as a black man and getting pulled over on a routine traffic stop.  

[Brisketexan 105450]

1 minute ago, thestud said:

 

 

Maybe.....and I’m just taking a flyer here.....this guy doesn’t live in a fantasy world where everything is all sunshine and rainbows and unicorn farts.

 

 

And maybe...I know, another flyer here.....as a gun owner and user, we need to do everything we can to NOT blow someone away, because that's a bad thing.  Even when you're within your rights, it's a bad thing.  So....take every step not to do so.

I would shoot someone to defend myself and/or my family.  But I would also do everything I could to avoid doing so, including waiting until the last possible instant, and identifying my target.  Because jumping out of the bushes and making ridiculous growling noises is ALSO something that an idiot kid or someone else might do for laughs.  And blowing away my son, one of his friends, or one of my buddies -- well, that would be bad.

Very few encounters in your life are "kill or be killed."  Pulling the trigger should be our absolute last possible outcome.

[cattail 112]

Mistake of fact duh

[Steel Shank 9432]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, yeah.... I know not to go hiking through the moors.

 

But....I mean.....if you DO get bitten.....it ain't ALL bad....

How y'all can take a story about an extremely unfortunate accident and make it about laying pipe with a smoking hot nurse is, quite frankly, beyond me. 

[Brisketexan 105450]

No....it's not beyond you at all.  It's right in your wheelhouse.  Cheers, amigo.

[Fuck Tim Beck 3834]

So we know spiral staircases stop coyotes. What stops Norwegian dumbasses?

Besides a bullet 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Fuck Tim Beck

[Deej 76962]

1 minute ago, Fuck Tim Beck said:

So we know spiral staircases stop coyotes. What stops Norwegian dumbasses?

A .357 magnum. 

[Fuck Tim Beck 3834]

Just now, Deej said:

A .357 magnum. 

True. Had to edit to add besides that 

[Brisketexan 105450]

4 minutes ago, Fuck Tim Beck said:

So we know spiral staircases stop coyotes. What stops Norwegian dumbasses?

Besides a bullet 

Ever hung around with Norwegians?  Some crazy mf'ers.  Not much besides a bullet, and even then, they're pretty damned tough stock.

[deadshank 24653]

8 minutes ago, Steel Shank said:

How y'all can take a story about an extremely unfortunate accident and make it about laying pipe with a smoking hot nurse is, quite frankly, beyond me. 

At Surly that distance is compressed.  

[Brisketexan 105450]

47 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And maybe...I know, another flyer here.....as a gun owner and user, we need to do everything we can to NOT blow someone away, because that's a bad thing.  Even when you're within your rights, it's a bad thing.  So....take every step not to do so.

I would shoot someone to defend myself and/or my family.  But I would also do everything I could to avoid doing so, including waiting until the last possible instant, and identifying my target.  Because jumping out of the bushes and making ridiculous growling noises is ALSO something that an idiot kid or someone else might do for laughs.  And blowing away my son, one of his friends, or one of my buddies -- well, that would be bad.

Very few encounters in your life are "kill or be killed."  Pulling the trigger should be our absolute last possible outcome.

Wait....this post gets a neg?  I mean....I literally posted the same message that CHL courses TEACH.  Be sure of your target.  Only fire to stop a threat.  Only shoot as a LAST RESORT.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

[BabaYaga 15330]

1 hour ago, crash_davis said:

Dennis heard banging on the back door at 11:30 p.m. and turned on the porch light, Johnson said.

Bergan then jumped "out of the shadows," Johnson said, leaping out from the bushes and making a growling sound, which scared Dennis.D

Yeah, don't fucking do this.  Let's start hear.  While tragic, it also illustrates that certain actions, with a little forethought, maybe aren't a great idea.  

I have two little kids.  Some chuckle-fuck starts banging on my door close to midnight, you bet your sweet ass I'm armed.  Then this guy went from banging, retreated to the bushes with the intent of "leaping" out at the homeowner, who's door you were just banging on.  Maybe the guy has a bat or a golf club instead of a gun, swings out of fear, catches the SIL in the head, same results.  

*why every LE friend I know says get a territorial dog.  Even a little one.  They start going nuts, giving the homeowner some warning, and if you have a SIL of questionable decision-making, maybe they remember the dog and decide, hey, maybe I'll just fucking knock.  A perp - maybe I'll find a house with no barking ass dog.  

[utee94 15869]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Wait....this post gets a neg?  I mean....I literally posted the same message that CHL courses TEACH.  Be sure of your target.  Only fire to stop a threat.  Only shoot as a LAST RESORT.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

Well, this is surly, so... pretty much everything?

[Longhornfan1024 1707]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Wait....this post gets a neg?  I mean....I literally posted the same message that CHL courses TEACH.  Be sure of your target.  Only fire to stop a threat.  Only shoot as a LAST RESORT.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

Cowards.  The problem is we have a lot of cowards in this country who think danger is around every corner and who only feel safe if they carry around a gun so that they can shoot first and get answers later.  

[ChickenSandwich 9855]

I don't buy this story for a second.  On Law and Order, there was this dad who shot his daughter's husband for the insurance money and because he was a cheatn bastard.  The truth will come out

[BabaYaga 15330]

Just now, Longhornfan1024 said:

Cowards.  The problem is we have a lot of cowards in this country who think danger is around every corner and who only feel safe if they carry around a gun so that they can shoot first and get answers later.  

He was in his fucking house?  Where else do you keep a gun?  A P.O. box at the bank?  This ins't about concealed or open carry.  Can you name another scenario where a homeowner has some idiot banging on his back door close to midnight doesn't arm himself (doesn't have to be a gun) and probably also call the police as well?

[Asithappens 974]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

I dunno, banging on someone's back door at 11:30pm, hiding in the bushes, leaping out and growling?  guy was doing about as much as he could do to get shot,  short of disguising himself as a black man and getting pulled over on a routine traffic stop.  

Bullshit.

Was it a dumb thing to do? Sure.

Did he deserve to get shot? No.

America really is fucked up when it comes to guns.

[Asithappens 974]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

He was in his fucking house?  Where else do you keep a gun?  A P.O. box at the bank?  This ins't about concealed or open carry.  Can you name another scenario where a homeowner has some idiot banging on his back door close to midnight doesn't arm himself (doesn't have to be a gun) and probably also call the police as well?

You're right. This isn't about concealed or open carry.

It's about too many fucking dipshits with too many fucking guns in a country that is insane when it comes to gun control.

[Longhornfan1024 1707]

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

He was in his fucking house?  Where else do you keep a gun?  A P.O. box at the bank?  This ins't about concealed or open carry.  Can you name another scenario where a homeowner has some idiot banging on his back door close to midnight doesn't arm himself (doesn't have to be a gun) and probably also call the police as well?

Sure.  The homeowner can turn on the porch light like he did and look out the window to see if anyone is there.  If he doesn't see anyone, he can call the cops or just hang out inside to see if anything suspicious is going on.  At no point does he need to go outside with a gun ready to fire when the commotion is just as likely, if not more likely, to be cause by some dumb kids than an actual threat.    

[Brisketexan 105450]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

He was in his fucking house?  Where else do you keep a gun?  A P.O. box at the bank?  This ins't about concealed or open carry.  Can you name another scenario where a homeowner has some idiot banging on his back door close to midnight doesn't arm himself (doesn't have to be a gun) and probably also call the police as well?

I am safe inside my home.  My family is safe inside my home.

People play pranks.  Neighbors get drunk.  Someone might even be running from danger in the greenbelt behind my house, seeking a safe place.  I mean, kick burglars and murderous drug gangs rarely bang on the door, and then back off.  All of those other things are POSSIBILITIES for the source of the noise outside.

I'm almost certainly calling the police.  I'm also calling out, loudly, "who's there?"  From behind my closed door.  Where I am safe.  And yes, maybe armed (dude...I own plenty of guns suited for the task). 

So, there are LOTS of scenarios where somebody is banging on my door at an odd hour where I wouldn't want to shoot them.  And knowing that, I'm going to do what I can to keep the situation from becoming one where shooting is my only reasonable option.  So, I am most likely NOT going outside to look around for what MIGHT be a threat -- I am in a safe place right now.  I don't want to give up that position.  Because I don't want to increase the risk of a situation where somebody dies -- me or someone else.

[Beau Vine 54468]

6 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Bullshit.

Was it a dumb thing to do? Sure.

Did he deserve to get shot? No.

America really is fucked up when it comes to guns.

Come on....

[BabaYaga 15330]

9 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Bullshit.

Was it a dumb thing to do? Sure.

Did he deserve to get shot? No.

America really is fucked up when it comes to guns.

Deserves got nothing to do with it.  SIL made a stupid choice and put himself in harms way unnecessarily.  Jesus, just ring the fucking doorbell.  It's close to midnight.  What if it was flipped, and he gave the old man a heart attack!  It's just monumentally stupid decision making.

It's a FIL - an older man.  So year, maybe he feel he lacks the physical capacity to manhandle people.  So gets something to defend his house with.  He's not parading it around on his hip through Target.  He'll regret this day for the rest of his life.  

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by BabaYaga

[BabaYaga 15330]

2 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

You're right. This isn't about concealed or open carry.

It's about too many fucking dipshits with too many fucking guns in a country that is insane when it comes to gun control.

Take your cloak room bullshit somewhere else

[BabaYaga 15330]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I am safe inside my home.  My family is safe inside my home.

People play pranks.  Neighbors get drunk.  Someone might even be running from danger in the greenbelt behind my house, seeking a safe place.  I mean, kick burglars and murderous drug gangs rarely bang on the door, and then back off.  All of those other things are POSSIBILITIES for the source of the noise outside.

I'm almost certainly calling the police.  I'm also calling out, loudly, "who's there?"  From behind my closed door.  Where I am safe.  And yes, maybe armed (dude...I own plenty of guns suited for the task). 

So, there are LOTS of scenarios where somebody is banging on my door at an odd hour where I wouldn't want to shoot them.  And knowing that, I'm going to do what I can to keep the situation from becoming one where shooting is my only reasonable option.  So, I am most likely NOT going outside to look around for what MIGHT be a threat -- I am in a safe place right now.  I don't want to give up that position.  Because I don't want to increase the risk of a situation where somebody dies -- me or someone else.

I can all but guarantee it wasn't the banging that got this kid shot.  Maybe the FIL was expecting him.  Banging probably startled him, grabbed his gun just in case. 

It was retreating into the bushes and then charging out at the homeowner.  There's your distinction

[B00M 6482]

 

10 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Bullshit.

Was it a dumb thing to do? Sure.

Did he deserve to get shot? No.

America really is fucked up when it comes to guns.

 

Other countries do warn their residents that they may get shot if they visit here. Moose out front...

The right thing to do was to call the cops and stay inside. On the other hand, this is way more defensible than what Guyger did. So who knows what the cops would've done to poor werewolf.

Darwin, still unbeaten.

 

[Brisketexan 105450]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Deserves got nothing to do with it.  SIL made a stupid choice and put himself in harms way unnecessarily.  Jesus, just ring the fucking doorbell.  It's close to midnight.  What if it was flipped, and he gave the old man a heart attack!  It's just monumentally stupid decision making.

It's a FIL - an older man.  So year, maybe he feel he lacks the physical capacity to manhandle people.  So gets something to defend his house with.  He's not parading it around on his hip through Target.  He'll regret this day for the rest of his life.  

 

Both things can be true.

SIL -- bad choice.  Put himself in harm's way, absolutely.

FIL -- bad choice.  Put himself in a situation where he was more likely to fear for his life.

Hell, it's like another kind of situation we talked about in another thread -- a car hitting a kid (not necessarily talking about the exact incident that happened recently.

Parents: should keep an eye on their young kids, especially when near an area with traffic.  Not doing so means an increased risk of your kid being in harm's way.

Drivers: should keep their eyes on the road, and exercise particular caution in areas where they know there may be kids.

That way, even if the first failure happens (parent fails to watch a kid, who runs out into the street), the second party behaves in a way that prevents tragedy.  And it works vice-versa -- dad holds onto his kid's hand, keeping him from wandering in front of that distracted driver.

SIL created the first failure.  Bad on him.

FIL created the second failure.  Bad on him.

That's really all anyone here is getting at.

[Brisketexan 105450]

9 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I can all but guarantee it wasn't the banging that got this kid shot.  Maybe the FIL was expecting him.  Banging probably startled him, grabbed his gun just in case. 

It was the homeowner going outside to seek out the threat retreating into the bushes and then charging out at the homeowner.  There's your distinction

FIF fully accurate statement.

Don't go TO the threat.  Don't.

I've seen a shitload of confrontations in my day, been in many of them.  Once I got to an age where I realized that "violent result" was a bad, bad outcome....I changed my approach to all such confrontations.  I simply do everything I can to remain in a safe position, and avoid going TO the threat.  If it's an ongoing threat, call the cops and let them handle it.  I can be patient.  I can sit there behind my door with my shotgun for half an hour, waiting for the cops to come.  Small price to pay for 1) not shooting somebody or 2) putting myself in a position where someone bad outside gets the drop on me.  Nope.  I'll stay right here, a safe distance behind my thick wood door.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Brisketexan

[NeverMarryAStripper 21948]

Many years ago before any kids  I was asleep and heard a commotion in my backyard.  I grabbed a SW .357 out of my night stand and ran into the den and opened the sliding glass door.  I didn't see anything, but could hear someone climbing over my fence.  It turned out to be a cop who was chasing someone.  The noise that woke me up was the suspect climbing over my fence and running through my backyard.  Neither the cop, nor I, ended up getting shot and the suspect was nabbed down the street.  I may not be a smart man, but I know better than to shoot a target I'm not sure of.  Anyone who isn't at least that smart shouldn't own a gun.

[Helobious 9467]

FIL sounds like a moron for even opening the door. If he was outside when he shot his SIL, he’s an even bigger moron for leaving his house and exposing himself by not taking a defensive position inside his doorway. They’re called “funnels of death” for a reason. Make the threat come through that chokepoint to you. 

[BabaYaga 15330]

1 minute ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

Many years ago before any kids  I was asleep and heard a commotion in my backyard.  I grabbed a SW .357 out of my night stand and ran into the den and opened the sliding glass door.  I didn't see anything, but could hear someone climbing over my fence.  It turned out to be a cop who was chasing someone.  The noise that woke me up was the suspect climbing over my fence and running through my backyard.  Neither the cop, nor I, ended up getting shot and the suspect was nabbed down the street.  I may not be a smart man, but I know better than to shoot a target I'm not sure of.  Anyone who isn't at least that smart shouldn't own a gun.

See Briskets post above about inserting yourself unnecessarily.  

[BabaYaga 15330]

1 minute ago, Helobious said:

FIL sounds like a moron for even opening the door. If he was outside when he shot his SIL, he’s an even bigger moron for leaving his house and exposing himself by not taking a defensive position inside his doorway. They’re called “funnels of death” for a reason. Make the threat come through that chokepoint to you. 

GET

A

FUCKING

DOG people.  Even a little yappy one.  Especially if older with lower response times (my parents finally getting one, stubborn old asses)

One of my best friends was in the 75th.  Used to talk about the variability of mission planning on whether the target had, or did not have dogs.  They change everything related to plans. You simply cannot beat them.  Their eyes.  Noses.  Ears.  I can all but guarantee, some perp bangs on a door and even a medium sized dog starts barking.  It's over.  Done.  

[Brisketexan 105450]

7 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

GET

A

FUCKING

DOG people.  Even a little yappy one.  Especially if older with lower response times (my parents finally getting one, stubborn old asses)

One of my best friends was in the 75th.  Used to talk about the variability of mission planning on whether the target had, or did not have dogs.  They change everything related to plans. You simply cannot beat them.  Their eyes.  Noses.  Ears.  I can all but guarantee, some perp bangs on a door and even a medium sized dog starts barking.  It's over.  Done.  

I'll definitely agree with that.  Our dogs have always been a pretty good early warning system, and barking is usually a good deterrent for anyone who might want to do bad shit.

Still, when the dog is barking, I might turn on the light to see outside.  But I'm staying inside.

[BabaYaga 15330]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

I'll definitely agree with that.  Our dogs have always been a pretty good early warning system, and barking is usually a good deterrent for anyone who might want to do bad shit.

Still, when the dog is barking, I might turn on the light to see outside.  But I'm staying inside.

Article notes that this was not the first time.  Apparently another relative started banging on his FRONT door @ 9:30.  So this probably got him spun up.  Then again at 11:30 more banging at the BACK door (much like SA's mom), then the lunging out of the bushes and growling nonsense.  It's tragic.  Easy to arm-chair QB, and easy to say what should have happened.  In the end it seems like an older man has to live the rest of his life with the guilt of this.  Case study in situational awareness.  

[conVINCEd 21470]

The daughter is going to have a hard time keeping a new fella around once he finds out what happened to the last guy.

[Brisketexan 105450]

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Article notes that this was not the first time.  Apparently another relative started banging on his FRONT door @ 9:30.  So this probably got him spun up.  Then again at 11:30 more banging at the BACK door (much like SA's mom), then the lunging out of the bushes and growling nonsense.  It's tragic.  Easy to arm-chair QB, and easy to say what should have happened.  In the end it seems like an older man has to live the rest of his life with the guilt of this.  Case study in situational awareness.  

On that we agree.  Tragedy all around.  And I'm certainly not saying the old man is a bad man who did a bad thing -- again, it's a tragic intersection of errors.  My only point is that when we've got a gun in our hand, we really need to be focused on an error-free path, because the consequences are a whole lot more serious than if I forget to check on the bacon I'm cooking (dammit, burned four pieces last Sunday, and I'm still bitter).

[Surly Bevo 25208]

2 hours ago, housious said:

That's going to be an awkward thanksgiving dinner

You serve lutefisk at Thanksgiving and see how smoothly it goes....

[immortal13 4059]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

And maybe...I know, another flyer here.....as a gun owner and user, we need to do everything we can to NOT blow someone away, because that's a bad thing.  Even when you're within your rights, it's a bad thing.  So....take every step not to do so.

I would shoot someone to defend myself and/or my family.  But I would also do everything I could to avoid doing so, including waiting until the last possible instant, and identifying my target.  Because jumping out of the bushes and making ridiculous growling noises is ALSO something that an idiot kid or someone else might do for laughs.  And blowing away my son, one of his friends, or one of my buddies -- well, that would be bad.

Very few encounters in your life are "kill or be killed."  Pulling the trigger should be our absolute last possible outcome.

So where is this line that you have drawn?

[immortal13 4059]

39 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

GET

A

FUCKING

DOG 

Cops just shoot those

[BabaYaga 15330]

Just now, immortal13 said:

Cops just shoot those

If it's my wife's, can I call ahead and request a certain caliber and shot placement on that little fucker?

[Brisketexan 105450]

2 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

So where is this line that you have drawn?

In any given situation, it's the line right at "I have no other choice available to me."

If I can stay safe and secure behind a locked door, I do that.

If I can get away safely, I do that.

It depends on the dynamic of any given situation, but the general rule is that you pull the trigger only when you ask yourself "do I have any other choice that keeps me and my family safe?" and the answer is "NO."  Again, I'm not going out on a limb here - this is literally EXACTLY what any competent firearms/CHL instructor will teach you.

 

[Pato del Muerto 52621]

For LTC there is s class involved, but for home protection you don’t need shit but money and maybe an ID, or a friend/relative.

Maybe some mandatory gun etiquette class should be enacted so people that want guns have to at least once hear things like identity your target before you shoot it, trigger discipline, muzzle discipline, whatever. 

[Bevo 13601]

17 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

For LTC there is s class involved, but for home protection you don’t need shit but money and maybe an ID, or a friend/relative.

Maybe some mandatory gun etiquette class should be enacted so people that want guns have to at least once hear things like identity your target before you shoot it, trigger discipline, muzzle discipline, whatever. 

We lived in a big house with a big yard that was not lighted. One of my brother's friends tried to scare me because he knew I was home alone. So he screwed with the door and the lock, acting like he was trying to break in. What should I have done? Should I have called the cops? Would he have been safe if I did? Should I have grabbed a gun? Should I have waited to identify and give the "intruder" a chance to fire at me first? Well, I waited to identify which was the right thing in this case, but if it was a real intruder, I would have been dead.

[Pato del Muerto 52621]

Yeah, you identify first. You aren’t the criminal, so follow the rules. If the intruder shoots you or at you, that’s sufficient to shoot back unless you think your brother’s friends may do that for giggles. 

[Bevo 13601]

2 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Yeah, you identify first. You aren’t the criminal, so follow the rules. If the intruder shoots you or at you, that’s sufficient to shoot back unless you think your brother’s friends may do that for giggles. 

If you want to die, I guess that is a good plan. I think in retrospect I should have called the cops and hid with a gun in a locked bathroom.