Surly Dad Thread

[Steel Shank 9552]

Knowing four grandfathers, my dad, and being a father to two sons makes me smile. I'm a wealthy man.

[tbone_ 14441]

Lately I've been feeling guilty about having kids. Feeling guilty about bringing life into this crumbling and failing society that will have to deal with every year in this country being worse than the last. Having to deal with living in the dystopian future I read about as a kid that we are now in even if most don't realize it yet. 
I know I'm not guilty because when they were born in 2004 and 2007 things appeared much more stable. The society had been prosperous for decades and the cracks of what would begin to happen had only started to appear and I had no way to see them. It is what it is but I don't like the thought of leaving them in this place when I check out. 
I haven't and won't tell them my preference but I hope they both decide to not have kids. Don't create future life to be subjected to this existence. It's not going to get better. 
Sorry for a minor rant just had to get that out and better here than to anyone who actually knows me. 

You need to tell yourself a better story. There is so much awesomeness in the world if you just open you eyes to it. Quit listening to mass narrative of how bad things always are. Though indeed pervasive, It’s not accurate. And it doesn’t have to define you or anyone else.

Tell yourself a better story and that’s what you’ll get out of life.

Go read The Book of Charlie. That’s a great place to start.

[Celery Man 21095]

9 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Jedediah Luke. Or Jedi Luke for short. But who am I kidding, your child will be Harry or Potter.

I had to fight her off of Hermione, Arya, and Lyra for girls names. I think she knows that I’m anti pop culture/fiction names. Although Rory as a girl nickname is most strongly associated with Gilmore Girls so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Girl Dad tool - I found a little thing like this in my desk and at bath time it has revolutionized removing the million tiny rubber bands my wife sticks in her hair every morning

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4999]

14 hours ago, Celery Man said:

I had to fight her off of Hermione, Arya, and Lyra for girls names. I think she knows that I’m anti pop culture/fiction names. Although Rory as a girl nickname is most strongly associated with Gilmore Girls so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Girl Dad tool - I found a little thing like this in my desk and at bath time it has revolutionized removing the million tiny rubber bands my wife sticks in her hair every morning

I wish I had thought of that when my girl was at that age.

[HornPhD 1389]

I’m sitting on our patio while my 13 year old daughter and her friends are taking over the house during her birthday slumber party. We’d host this weekly if she wanted. 

[Victor Lazlo 1812]

Wednesday night my daughter, her husband, and their 3 kids - all 4 and under-spent the night with me before heading to the airport for a flight to Florida. I cooked their favorite meal, made homemade ice cream, then watched the two oldest grandkids bounce off the walls for the next hour from their sugar high.

Friday evening I went to my son and daughter in law’s house to babysit their infant daughter while they went to the Astros game.

Life is good.

 

[Guest]

On 8/11/2023 at 10:51 PM, Steel Shank said:

Knowing four grandfathers, my dad, and being a father to two sons makes me smile. I'm a wealthy man.

Plus all those sandwiches you post.

[Brisketexan 106884]

Sigh. Going through another hard stretch as a parent. The girl just graduated college in may. Her last year of school was sort of a full “exchange year.” She lived overseas, and studied a language and had a good time and experience, but it was also a year without a lot of focus or direction. And, while she’s plenty smart and capable, she’s also emotionally immature.
So, now she’s here back home with us…without much focus or direction. She really doesn’t know how to start “adulting,” is a bit paralyzed by the process, and (tying back into that emotional immaturity, which puts her emotional age at about 14), is shutting us out and treating us like the enemy.
She’s lost and struggling. And not only will she not let us help, she’s actively fighting against us. She has repeatedly put us/me in the position of being a pushover for some foolish thing/path she wants to do/try, or being the “enemy” by saying “no” to that thing (and I’ve consistently chosen the second, because my job is to be her parent, even if it makes her hate me in the moment, which still hurts like hell). So, headed to the family counselor this afternoon.
This is gonna be a process. Just when you think you’ve got everyone on a good path…shit comes along to tell you different. This dad shit is pretty damn hard sometimes.

[Thatguy 9362]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Sigh. Going through another hard stretch as a parent. The girl just graduated college in may. Her last year of school was sort of a full “exchange year.” She lived overseas, and studied a language and had a good time and experience, but it was also a year without a lot of focus or direction. And, while she’s plenty smart and capable, she’s also emotionally immature.
So, now she’s here back home with us…without much focus or direction. She really doesn’t know how to start “adulting,” is a bit paralyzed by the process, and (tying back into that emotional immaturity, which puts her emotional age at about 14), is shutting us out and treating us like the enemy.
She’s lost and struggling. And not only will she not let us help, she’s actively fighting against us. She has repeatedly put us/me in the position of being a pushover for some foolish thing/path she wants to do/try, or being the “enemy” by saying “no” to that thing (and I’ve consistently chosen the second, because my job is to be her parent, even if it makes her hate me in the moment, which still hurts like hell). So, headed to the family counselor this afternoon.
This is gonna be a process. Just when you think you’ve got everyone on a good path…shit comes along to tell you different. This dad shit is pretty damn hard sometimes.

  Here here-

   My daughter is now 15. We have gone through the ugly middle school age with all the bells and whistles. The last couple years have been ugly, but she seems to be turning the corner to the next level of maturity, although its slow at times. In volleyball she seems to be on a crash course with a scholarship. What level depends on these next couple years and how much of the work ethic teachings sunk in or not. Right now the intellect and skill is there we are just waiting on the self confidence to kick in. If that happens then we can let go of the leash a little bit. These kids make progress in waves. Yours will sort it out here soon, as you already know having made it this far. 

  On a side note its tough for this generation. We did all the struggling so they wouldn't have to and so they are a little behind when it comes to world maturity. Couple that with how much it costs to stand on your own two and all of us are likely to have our grown kids under our roof early on, which is tough on both sides. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Sigh. Going through another hard stretch as a parent. The girl just graduated college in may. Her last year of school was sort of a full “exchange year.” She lived overseas, and studied a language and had a good time and experience, but it was also a year without a lot of focus or direction. And, while she’s plenty smart and capable, she’s also emotionally immature.
So, now she’s here back home with us…without much focus or direction. She really doesn’t know how to start “adulting,” is a bit paralyzed by the process, and (tying back into that emotional immaturity, which puts her emotional age at about 14), is shutting us out and treating us like the enemy.
She’s lost and struggling. And not only will she not let us help, she’s actively fighting against us. She has repeatedly put us/me in the position of being a pushover for some foolish thing/path she wants to do/try, or being the “enemy” by saying “no” to that thing (and I’ve consistently chosen the second, because my job is to be her parent, even if it makes her hate me in the moment, which still hurts like hell). So, headed to the family counselor this afternoon.
This is gonna be a process. Just when you think you’ve got everyone on a good path…shit comes along to tell you different. This dad shit is pretty damn hard sometimes.

How might she respond to "you need a job by X-date" or your rent becomes due on THIS date?

She can have the comfort of living at home with some time-bound targets to hit.

signed-  the known asshole in our house

Edited August 13, 2023 by slorch

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Thatguy said:

We did all the struggling so they wouldn't have to and so they are a little behind when it comes to world maturity.

I think about this A LOT. Wish I had a time machine so I could see where I was at when I was my kid's age. Of course, in my mind I was always driven, responsible, and focused. I'm sure, however, that wasn't the case.

I feel like I push a lot when he is just being a kid simply because I want to raise an adult, not a child.

[Thatguy 9362]

3 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

I think about this A LOT. Wish I had a time machine so I could see where I was at when I was my kid's age. Of course, in my mind I was always driven, responsible, and focused. I'm sure, however, that wasn't the case.

I feel like I push a lot when he is just being a kid simply because I want to raise an adult, not a child.

   I was very much a dumb ass at 15. However, I was far more self reliant than my kid is. If my mom left me money I could make it. I feel like my kid would be lying face down on the floor if we left her alone for 3 days. I had a job at 14, and was a seasoned vet by 15. I sacked groceries at 15 and got myself to and from work on the bus. I knew how to shake hands properly. Look a person in the eye when I talked to them. I was just further along on how to survive, where as I feel like all the kids in my area, including mine, are still very much on the tit. 

[tbone_ 14441]

I’m sitting on our patio while my 13 year old daughter and her friends are taking over the house during her birthday slumber party. We’d host this weekly if she wanted. 

This. I had 5 16yo’s at my house last night.

[956 Worldwide 35592]

Next week my two (preteen and single digit) will start school. For both of them it’s the third elementary school in a third country, this time in a “home” country that’s more foreign to them than anywhere else (since it’s not my hometown with grandparents where they summer every year). 

Anyway, they are both struggling, especially the oldest who is on the spectrum. They are both old enough to know what it means to leave friends behind. They both loved their old school and home and while the new one promises to be nice— it’s not what they know.  The older one had to leave her first and only “real” friend and a school and community that knew, supported, and accepted her for who she is and her talents. 

And I’m struggling because the truth is I didn’t want to do this particular move but it was inevitable. And I am trying to balance between validating and sympathizing by letting them talk about what they miss, what they worry about, and how they want to go back— while not letting all of us sink into unhelpful nostalgic sadness. And that’s a tough damn thing to do. 

Not a lot to add except I am bowled over by their courage and strength, as they have no control over this and frankly there have been days I would not have gotten out of bed if I didn’t have to be dad. And guilt because even though I know this life has brought a lot of richness and opportunities, it’s not the stable comfort that I had (two houses in one town, knowing most of my teachers before ever setting foot in class, one church where everyone buys you a graduation gift). Knowing pretty much exactly what to expect on every first day of school. And they didn’t get to choose this, I did for them. 

So just venting. They say major moves are just behind close family deaths and divorces as a stressor. I’ve had neither save a very elderly grandmother, but it sure feels that way, and I can’t image what that feels like as a little person who isn’t making the decisions. 

[Brisketexan 106884]

How might she respond to "you need a job by X-date" or your rent becomes due on THIS date?
She can have the comfort of living at home with some time-bound targets to hit.
signed-  the known asshole in our house

At this point….she wouldn’t respond well as all. We’re dealing with some underlying emotional maturity and related communication issues that underlie all of it. The job/career path will come, once she figures out…how to figure things out.
She’s incredibly competent at a number of things, beyond her years. Which she has used to conceal/make up for her weaknesses in other areas. Now, those skills she is weakest in are needed, and there’s no way to cover that up or get around it. So, it hits a crisis point. And she’s getting easily emotionally overwhelmed.
The issues aren’t what she’s doing or not doing; those just reveal the underlying problems. So, helping her work in those.
Today, with the whole family, was goddamned hard. Tomorrow will be too. And the next day. And a lot of days. Until at some point, it won’t be as hard.
I’m tired. And sad. And frustrated.

[TwiceHorn 32076]

10 hours ago, Thatguy said:

  On a side note its tough for this generation. We did all the struggling so they wouldn't have to and so they are a little behind when it comes to world maturity. Couple that with how much it costs to stand on your own two and all of us are likely to have our grown kids under our roof early on, which is tough on both sides. 

Very insightful. I think it's a real challenge for parents to achieve, and confer on their kids the meaningful advantages they see as fulfilling their duty as parents (not material shit), without at least a little bit stunting their kids.  And, there are many forces at work that stunt kids pretty much regardless of what you do.

[Brisketexan 106884]

Very insightful. I think it's a real challenge for parents to achieve, and confer on their kids the meaningful advantages they see as fulfilling their duty as parents (not material shit), without at least a little bit stunting their kids.  And, there are many forces at work that stunt kids pretty much regardless of what you do.

COVID during some key life-skill developmental years did us no favors.

[Wade 464]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

At this point….she wouldn’t respond well as all. We’re dealing with some underlying emotional maturity and related communication issues that underlie all of it. The job/career path will come, once she figures out…how to figure things out.
She’s incredibly competent at a number of things, beyond her years. Which she has used to conceal/make up for her weaknesses in other areas. Now, those skills she is weakest in are needed, and there’s no way to cover that up or get around it. So, it hits a crisis point. And she’s getting easily emotionally overwhelmed.
The issues aren’t what she’s doing or not doing; those just reveal the underlying problems. So, helping her work in those.
Today, with the whole family, was goddamned hard. Tomorrow will be too. And the next day. And a lot of days. Until at some point, it won’t be as hard.
I’m tired. And sad. And frustrated.

I could type a whole bunch of crap advice, but it would all boil down to: you've pretty much done your job.  You've raised her to college graduation.  Now, it's up to her to figure things out.  You gotta let her go, so to speak.  Give her some space to think, and enjoy the time you have with her living in your house.  Give her advice when asked, and your unsolicited opinion when you think she's off track, but let it lie at that.  If she continues off track and burns her hand, she'll remember you advised against it.

[DalTxHornFan 3130]

2 hours ago, tbone_ said:

This. I had 5 16yo’s at my house last night.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4999]

22 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Sigh. Going through another hard stretch as a parent. The girl just graduated college in may. Her last year of school was sort of a full “exchange year.” She lived overseas, and studied a language and had a good time and experience, but it was also a year without a lot of focus or direction. And, while she’s plenty smart and capable, she’s also emotionally immature.
So, now she’s here back home with us…without much focus or direction. She really doesn’t know how to start “adulting,” is a bit paralyzed by the process, and (tying back into that emotional immaturity, which puts her emotional age at about 14), is shutting us out and treating us like the enemy.
She’s lost and struggling. And not only will she not let us help, she’s actively fighting against us. She has repeatedly put us/me in the position of being a pushover for some foolish thing/path she wants to do/try, or being the “enemy” by saying “no” to that thing (and I’ve consistently chosen the second, because my job is to be her parent, even if it makes her hate me in the moment, which still hurts like hell). So, headed to the family counselor this afternoon.
This is gonna be a process. Just when you think you’ve got everyone on a good path…shit comes along to tell you different. This dad shit is pretty damn hard sometimes.

Don't worry. Someone will be posting stories about her in the wives thread before too long. And not long after that someone will be posting about your grandkids right here. All will come in due time. Just keep doing what you're doing and being a good father. Most things tend to work themselves out with enough time and patience as long as you do your part.

[Celery Man 21095]

I think this may have changed for gen z kids, but as a millennial the recipe for success I heard over and over and over and over again growing up was

1) get good grades

2) get into college

3) ????

4) 

 

In retrospect it is crazy how thin my plan was. Anyways, towards the end of my college career I had a big gradual "oh fuck what am i going to do" thing going on, and I spent a lot of days somewhat paralyzed playing Fallout 3 and generally not knowing what to do. Sure as fuck didn't want to talk about it because it was terrifying and I had no idea what I was doing at all except that I was fucking up and it was maybe pretty serious.

I can "feel" a lot of that in how you describe your daughter Brisket. I don't know what advice follows - for me personally, I caught a lucky break in that a friend suggested I apply at the small company where he worked and that was enough of a handhold to get me started. I think at that time and for a long time, I would have benefited from understanding how you grow in a career and how gradual things can be (but what steps you should try and take to get from "entry level" bottom of the pole to established) and even the large number of well paying jobs that exist that aren't things you get a degree in.  I didn't understand any of that at all, I felt like I had already blown it.

I'm a baby parent, I don't have the parenting experience to give any advice, but if what she's going through emotionally is similar to where I was, what i needed was just a little bit of help figuring out how to get up on the bike and rolling down the road. I wanted to do it, I knew I needed to, I wasn't sure how and was falling off every time i climbed on the wrong way.

[Brisketexan 106884]

2 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I wanted to do it, I knew I needed to, I wasn't sure how and was falling off every time i climbed on the wrong way.

Yeah.  There's a whole lot of this going on.  And it's KILLING me that she has so shut down communications with us.  All she has to do is ask for the tiniest bit of help, thought, insight...ANYTHING from us, and she'd get it.  Instead, she's floundering and flailing, utterly frustrated, and even though she's under our roof, she's doing it all alone.

All we know about what's going on with her, her job search, her vision for her future, all that, are a handful of breadcrumbs she's left us.  We know she's terrified of being a "disappointment" to us.  We know she doesn't even know who she is right now.  We also know that it's almost certainly a natural part in her path, based on all that's come before.  But it kills us to see her suffering alone.

[Celery Man 21095]

first thing i ever said to the girl and what i tell her every night - "i love you forever no matter what". not looking forward to a time when she needs convincing of it

[Brisketexan 106884]

26 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

first thing i ever said to the girl and what i tell her every night - "i love you forever no matter what". not looking forward to a time when she needs convincing of it

Told her that yesterday afternoon.  Told her that she has to know that I'd do anything to help her.  As she shuddered crying on my shoulder.  And we haven't spoken since.  She's just in a really shitty place.

[Guest]

I think one thing that was so instrumental in my growing up was work. My dad bought old houses, fixed them up, rented them out. What we did when I saw him -- even as a small kid --  was work. It was remodeling, repairing, fixing, installing, etc. I distinctly remember thinking when I was eight years old that this was the summer I was going to finally get to use the circular saw (narrator: it wasn't) He was just one of those guys. Sure we did other stuff, but it was a lot of work.

Of course, it sucked as a kid. But damn if it didn't instill the work ethic that I have today. Sure I work on a computer now and definitely dick around, but I also get shit done, and if I'm not being productive for too long, I don't feel good. I worry that because my job is different, that's not going to be passed on to the kid and I think work ethic is a huge reason why I've been successful so far in life.

Scott Galloway nailed it: "If I had what my kids have, I wouldn't have what I have."

 

[BabaYaga 15623]

11 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

I think one thing that was so instrumental in my growing up was work. My dad bought old houses, fixed them up, rented them out. What we did when I saw him -- even as a small kid --  was work. It was remodeling, repairing, fixing, installing, etc. I distinctly remember thinking when I was eight years old that this was the summer I was going to finally get to use the circular saw (narrator: it wasn't) He was just one of those guys. Sure we did other stuff, but it was a lot of work.

Of course, it sucked as a kid. But damn if it didn't instill the work ethic that I have today. Sure I work on a computer now and definitely dick around, but I also get shit done, and if I'm not being productive for too long, I don't feel good. I worry that because my job is different, that's not going to be passed on to the kid and I think work ethic is a huge reason why I've been successful so far in life.

Scott Galloway nailed it: "If I had what my kids have, I wouldn't have what I have."

 

My g-father was a rancher and a carpenter in W.Texas.  That feeling is helping and being a value add was priceless to the self esteem of a child.  He was also a summbeech and joker and I spent way too much time looking for the lefthanded hammer or the board stretcher in the back of the truck......

[BabaYaga 15623]

25 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Told her that yesterday afternoon.  Told her that she has to know that I'd do anything to help her.  As she shuddered crying on my shoulder.  And we haven't spoken since.  She's just in a really shitty place.

I'm so sorry.  When my daughter is upset about anything, I just twists me into knots.  Let us know if YOU need support.  Takes a dysfunctional village....

[Brisketexan 106884]

There's definitely a lot of self-administered pressure.  She's a 3 on the enneagram ("Achiever"), and she has been -- top student, top university, multi-lingual, all that stuff.  But now, she's reached the part of life where there's no set script.  And, she's intimidated by the fact that her parents are both high achievers, so she sees a bar that she can't imagine clearing right now.  It absolutely gets in her own head.

The only time she's really talked to me this summer -- and it wasn't about anything long-term or super topical -- was when we went flyfishing one afternoon.  It reminded me of when I was a 15 yr old shithead, and hated my old man.  The only thing we could do together was go fishing.  It would be 2-3 days of detente, where we still connected over something we both loved, and in little flashes, I realized that as much as I thought he was the enemy, he still loved me.

One of the things we'd love to offer to help her (seriously, my God, we have SO many resources and things to offer her, if she'd just reach out) is the chance to meet with some people, role models, etc.  Our network is ridiculous.  It includes people who would love nothing more than to spend an hour with her, just talking, and generating ideas and thoughts.  But right now, it seems like she's paralyzed by the overwhelming nature of all of it.  She's always had a hard time processing her emotions, and she's covered for that over the years by being intellectually engaged, and developing some pretty adult skills in other respects.  But now, she can't use those skills for the task at hand (figuring out what's next, and taking tangible steps towards it), so it's just her and her unmanaged emotions, anxiety, and fear.  And that's what's in the driver's seat.

What do I want for her?  Find a job, ANY job, that even remotely advances her career goals.  Preferably outside of Texas (she hates the heat, she's not fond of Texas), but in the US.  NYC or DC would be PERFECT for her.  Get up every day, take the train to work.  Put yourself into a task and job, and see that you CAN do it, and that it can actually be rewarding.  Slowly build a network of peers and friends in the working world.  In other words, get in the dressing room and try on some adulthood.  And realize that it looks pretty good on you.  So after that, THEN you can go back to the racks and look for the right style and size of adulthood for you.  But if/when I hit her with that, it's too much information.  She shuts down.

This is going to be a process.  And she's miserable as it moves forward.  And that breaks my goddamn heart.

[Post Oak 20560]

When I was feeling lost in my early 20s my folks told me to get out of the house and start volunteering.  I was resistant. But it was great for me on so many levels.  First, I saw I really had a lot to be grateful for and at the end of the day, I felt good about myself.  It slowly started snapping me out of the funk.

Might be something to think about.  Even now, during the holidays we make time to do it for a few days.

[BabaYaga 15623]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

There's definitely a lot of self-administered pressure.  She's a 3 on the enneagram ("Achiever"), and she has been -- top student, top university, multi-lingual, all that stuff.  But now, she's reached the part of life where there's no set script.  And, she's intimidated by the fact that her parents are both high achievers, so she sees a bar that she can't imagine clearing right now.  It absolutely gets in her own head.

The only time she's really talked to me this summer -- and it wasn't about anything long-term or super topical -- was when we went flyfishing one afternoon.  It reminded me of when I was a 15 yr old shithead, and hated my old man.  The only thing we could do together was go fishing.  It would be 2-3 days of detente, where we still connected over something we both loved, and in little flashes, I realized that as much as I thought he was the enemy, he still loved me.

One of the things we'd love to offer to help her (seriously, my God, we have SO many resources and things to offer her, if she'd just reach out) is the chance to meet with some people, role models, etc.  Our network is ridiculous.  It includes people who would love nothing more than to spend an hour with her, just talking, and generating ideas and thoughts.  But right now, it seems like she's paralyzed by the overwhelming nature of all of it.  She's always had a hard time processing her emotions, and she's covered for that over the years by being intellectually engaged, and developing some pretty adult skills in other respects.  But now, she can't use those skills for the task at hand (figuring out what's next, and taking tangible steps towards it), so it's just her and her unmanaged emotions, anxiety, and fear.  And that's what's in the driver's seat.

What do I want for her?  Find a job, ANY job, that even remotely advances her career goals.  Preferably outside of Texas (she hates the heat, she's not fond of Texas), but in the US.  NYC or DC would be PERFECT for her.  Get up every day, take the train to work.  Put yourself into a task and job, and see that you CAN do it, and that it can actually be rewarding.  Slowly build a network of peers and friends in the working world.  In other words, get in the dressing room and try on some adulthood.  And realize that it looks pretty good on you.  So after that, THEN you can go back to the racks and look for the right style and size of adulthood for you.  But if/when I hit her with that, it's too much information.  She shuts down.

This is going to be a process.  And she's miserable as it moves forward.  And that breaks my goddamn heart.

I've worked with a lot of veterans that seem to have similar feelings - they have spent their entire lives dedicated to one thing at the detriment of everything else.  Then when in the "real world" they feel helpless, afraid, and ashamed.  What many need is a new mission - a mission of change, growth, and most importantly perspective.  The perspective from others in their peer group that have made the same journey.  Those that have been in similar shoes and come out the other side.  Ironically, it's the top tier guys that seem to suffer so much, because in their "old job" they were special.  Now they are not.  I'm  not talking trauma and PTSD.  That's different.  I'm talking about excelling at everything thrown at you, and then one day you are just like everyone else.  

It's kind of cliché, but that's why so many do those ice bath things, or BJJ, CrossFit, etc. - it's something hard you can do every day.  It's something you can "win" at with work, that reminds you a little at a time what you are capable of.  It's a ladder you can climb.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4999]

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

There's definitely a lot of self-administered pressure.  She's a 3 on the enneagram ("Achiever"), and she has been -- top student, top university, multi-lingual, all that stuff.  But now, she's reached the part of life where there's no set script.  And, she's intimidated by the fact that her parents are both high achievers, so she sees a bar that she can't imagine clearing right now.  It absolutely gets in her own head.

The only time she's really talked to me this summer -- and it wasn't about anything long-term or super topical -- was when we went flyfishing one afternoon.  It reminded me of when I was a 15 yr old shithead, and hated my old man.  The only thing we could do together was go fishing.  It would be 2-3 days of detente, where we still connected over something we both loved, and in little flashes, I realized that as much as I thought he was the enemy, he still loved me.

One of the things we'd love to offer to help her (seriously, my God, we have SO many resources and things to offer her, if she'd just reach out) is the chance to meet with some people, role models, etc.  Our network is ridiculous.  It includes people who would love nothing more than to spend an hour with her, just talking, and generating ideas and thoughts.  But right now, it seems like she's paralyzed by the overwhelming nature of all of it.  She's always had a hard time processing her emotions, and she's covered for that over the years by being intellectually engaged, and developing some pretty adult skills in other respects.  But now, she can't use those skills for the task at hand (figuring out what's next, and taking tangible steps towards it), so it's just her and her unmanaged emotions, anxiety, and fear.  And that's what's in the driver's seat.

What do I want for her?  Find a job, ANY job, that even remotely advances her career goals.  Preferably outside of Texas (she hates the heat, she's not fond of Texas), but in the US.  NYC or DC would be PERFECT for her.  Get up every day, take the train to work.  Put yourself into a task and job, and see that you CAN do it, and that it can actually be rewarding.  Slowly build a network of peers and friends in the working world.  In other words, get in the dressing room and try on some adulthood.  And realize that it looks pretty good on you.  So after that, THEN you can go back to the racks and look for the right style and size of adulthood for you.  But if/when I hit her with that, it's too much information.  She shuts down.

This is going to be a process.  And she's miserable as it moves forward.  And that breaks my goddamn heart.

Maybe consider taking an extended fishing trip with her. Or give it a few weeks and take her on a trip across the country looking for doves to hunt. If she's not into being personally involved with the meat she eats, take her on a camping trip with no destination or plan. The point is, make her spend some one on one time with you where she has no alternative. Eventually she will talk because she has nothing else to do. And then when she does y'all can spend a couple more weeks having fun and tell the wife that it was tough but eventually you broke through.

[Brisketexan 106884]

Just now, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Maybe consider taking an extended fishing trip with her. Or give it a few weeks and take her on a trip across the country looking for doves to hunt. If she's not into being personally involved with the meat she eats, take her on a camping trip with no destination or plan. The point is, make her spend some one on one time with you where she has no alternative. Eventually she will talk because she has nothing else to do. And then when she does y'all can spend a couple more weeks having fun and tell the wife that it was tough but eventually you broke through.

Not a terrible idea.

Need to sort out how I'd rationalize it, as ONE of our issues is....she uses travel as a salve and escape from reality and responsibilities.  For example, she'd already planned a trip months ago to go spend two weeks visiting a friend in Mexico (cheap trip, had been planned....okay, go ahead and go). Then, FOUR FUCKING DAYS after getting back, she says at dinner "so, with my job search, and an interim job not starting till the end of September, I don't have anything on my calendar in early September.  So, I've DECIDED that I'm going to go to Germany for two weeks to see friends."  We were caught flat-fucking-footed, and our response in the moment was pretty much a clean "no you're not.  Your job is looking for a job, and you need to stay focused on that."

It's been our most recent point of major friction.  Getting her to take seriously where she is, and what she needs to be doing, and not run from "feel good escape to feel good escape."  She needs to figure out how to just BE in the uncertainty, and to get up and do the next thing.

[BabaYaga 15623]

44 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Not a terrible idea.

Need to sort out how I'd rationalize it, as ONE of our issues is....she uses travel as a salve and escape from reality and responsibilities.  For example, she'd already planned a trip months ago to go spend two weeks visiting a friend in Mexico (cheap trip, had been planned....okay, go ahead and go). Then, FOUR FUCKING DAYS after getting back, she says at dinner "so, with my job search, and an interim job not starting till the end of September, I don't have anything on my calendar in early September.  So, I've DECIDED that I'm going to go to Germany for two weeks to see friends."  We were caught flat-fucking-footed, and our response in the moment was pretty much a clean "no you're not.  Your job is looking for a job, and you need to stay focused on that."

It's been our most recent point of major friction.  Getting her to take seriously where she is, and what she needs to be doing, and not run from "feel good escape to feel good escape."  She needs to figure out how to just BE in the uncertainty, and to get up and do the next thing.

How can she pay for the trip?  Expecting you to help out?

[Brisketexan 106884]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

How can she pay for the trip?  Expecting you to help out?

She has some money saved up (she's done some gig work, and her grandfather sent her $500 a month while she was in school).  And a big part of our opposition is "cool, you have some money saved up.  You're looking for a job, it will be entry-level, meaning it won't pay a lot.  While we might be willing to send you a little bit each month to make sure you don't live in someplace where the rats are TOO big, it's a much wiser use of our money to keep it there in reserve for when you might NEED it."  I mean, even if she's just crashing on people's couches, it's probably a $2k trip, all-in.  And, what if one of the jobs she's applied for calls and wants her to come in for an in-person interview in 3 days?  A last minute overseas ticket costs THOUSANDS.

But these are rational, logic-based conversations.  We're not in a place to have those right now.  We've told her "no" to the trip.  Now, will she ultimately defy that and book it and go on it anyway?  She could.  I hope she doesn't, because it would be both a terrible decision AND pointlessly confrontational.  But I don't know what will happen at this point.

[BabaYaga 15623]

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

But these are rational, logic-based conversations.  We're not in a place to have those right now.  We've told her "no" to the trip.  Now, will she ultimately defy that and book it and go on it anyway?  She could.  I hope she doesn't, because it would be both a terrible decision AND pointlessly confrontational.  But I don't know what will happen at this point.

Sometimes you to let them go and be there to help control the fall as best you can.  It sucks

[BabaYaga 15623]

How about a fake Surly abduction 

Then you can swope in and save the day with your mad skills, old-man kung fu, ala Taken

[Thatguy 9362]

21 hours ago, tbone_ said:

This. I had 5 16yo’s at my house last night.

    Girls travel in packs. We built a theater room so the kids would want to hang out in there. My daughter and her friends periodically come out in a line all doing tik tok dances, raid the fridge, then head back for more gossiping and giggling. It's good because instead of being somewhere with some weirdo parents, they are right here where we can see them. 

[Thatguy 9362]

7 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

I've worked with a lot of veterans that seem to have similar feelings - they have spent their entire lives dedicated to one thing at the detriment of everything else.  Then when in the "real world" they feel helpless, afraid, and ashamed. 

  To me this is what parenting feels like. We are staring down being empty nesters. Plan on selling, downsizing, and moving somewhere where the property taxes aren't that high for 7th inning stretch. Past that we don't know what the hell we are gonna do. We've put an awful lot into raising a kid. 

[956 Worldwide 35592]

7 hours ago, Post Oak said:

When I was feeling lost in my early 20s my folks told me to get out of the house and start volunteering.  I was resistant. But it was great for me on so many levels.  First, I saw I really had a lot to be grateful for and at the end of the day, I felt good about myself.  It slowly started snapping me out of the funk.

Might be something to think about.  Even now, during the holidays we make time to do it for a few days.

When I was in the same spot, I was also at home and my parents just told me I had to get a job. Any job, but I couldn’t be at home and not working. And so I went back to working at swimming pools, like I had in high school. It was with a bunch of teenagers and some folks in their mid to late twenties who didn’t have much going on or ambition. 
 

That kick-started me and made me get serious about a real career track and not waiting for it to fall in my lap. I don’t think it’s a terrible idea to go find out what it’s like trying to do the day to day at the lower end. 

[Guest]

Was gonna bring it up earlier in the thread, but yeah, our kids knew from about Junior High on-  You are going to school or working.  You can live here free while going to school, but none of this 15 years of school bullshit.  I just asked them as they started working in high school, who would I allow to live in our house for free?  Maybe my mom?  Maybe someone else in the family unable to take care of themselves; but nobody that is able-bodied is living here for free. They know who I am.  Why would you ever expect differently?  You know what you've been raised to do.  No fucking free rides.

As I stated upthread, I am the asshole in our house, but our kids have never been surprised by our expectations.  Others in the family on her side and mine both; didn't always like how we raised our kids.  Bottom line is that we can live with who they grew up to be.  Nobody else had to own that.  We took it very seriously.  I think that is the most important thing- no games, no shenanigans, no control mechanisms-  just consistent support and expectations. We've aways told them, " We can't make you do the right thing, but our counsel will always genuinely be what we think is best for you.  Doesn't mean you have to abide, but the odds will be better in the long run if you do."

Edited August 15, 2023 by slorch

[Boss Hogg 808]

9 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

What do I want for her?  Find a job, ANY job, that even remotely advances her career goals.  Preferably outside of Texas

What's her desired field? I'm sure there's a starting point in Texas even if she wants to leave. It's just that it can be tough even for an adjusted, motivated person to get fresh job in new field across the country. You have to get off zero and start somewhere.

[Boss Hogg 808]

Had a football related realization today. My oldest starts high school this year and is involved with Friday night lights via being the mascot. Going to be tough for quite a while to make it up to Dallas for the OU game. And I've been to 24 out of the last 25. Probably going to miss the next 10 years or so as the kids cycle through. Gonna miss it!

 

[Brisketexan 106884]

Yeah…ours know that home is a “safety net,” but it’s not a full on landing pad.
The girl had planned to work after this year….but I think she didn’t think it through, and intended to work in Europe. Well, ummm….you need a visa for that. Meaning someone has to sponsor you for that. And very few employers are going to sponsor a fresh liberal arts grad, no matter how many languages she speaks.
So, she pivoted (too late) to “I’ll go to grad school. The only one she could apply to and get into that late…we aren’t paying for (it’s a money mill).
So when THAT gambit failed…she was lost, without a plan. And she’s locked us out of having realistic talks about what good plans look like. She has a job lined up to start Oct 1 here in town…but it’s just a “job,” it’s not anything towards a career or anything like that.
She had an initial interview today. For what job? With whom? Where? I have no idea. And if I push, she shuts down even more. It’s maddening, but I can’t make her not be the way she is right now. And, I’m honestly worried about her near-term well being. She’s in a really shitty place in her own head.

[South Austin 53221]

Brisket, I feel you in some way. We’re moving my fiancé’s son into his freshman college dorm on Saturday, and she’s an absolute fucking basket case of worry over him. He’s a great kid, but also a textbook example of his generation’s Lost Boys. Largely unmotivated about most things in life, it’s a significant possibility that he spends 70% of his waking life in his room (much like he has through high school). If he gave a little bit of effort, he’d go to college with some serious game, because he’s a damn handsome kid and witty as fuck. We hope he turns a corner, but there’s a high level of anxiety over kicking him out of the nest, for me even, and he’s not my kid. 

[Goofyboy 3432]

Had a football related realization today. My oldest starts high school this year and is involved with Friday night lights via being the mascot. Going to be tough for quite a while to make it up to Dallas for the OU game. And I've been to 24 out of the last 25. Probably going to miss the next 10 years or so as the kids cycle through. Gonna miss it!
 

Congrats on your kid being the mascot! If they wants to continue into college, have work on their skits and film / document a lot. I was the UT mascot from 98-2001. It was an amazing experience. One of the guys on the squad became Orbit for a time and still works for the Astros.

[South Austin 53221]

51 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

I was the UT mascot from 98-2001.

Username checks out.

[BabaYaga 15623]

14 hours ago, Thatguy said:

  To me this is what parenting feels like. We are staring down being empty nesters. Plan on selling, downsizing, and moving somewhere where the property taxes aren't that high for 7th inning stretch. Past that we don't know what the hell we are gonna do. We've put an awful lot into raising a kid. 

Just have to keep reinventing yourselves.  It's what we expect out of our children.  Best way is to show them.  

[BabaYaga 15623]

2 hours ago, South Austin said:

Brisket, I feel you in some way. We’re moving my fiancé’s son into his freshman college dorm on Saturday, and she’s an absolute fucking basket case of worry over him. He’s a great kid, but also a textbook example of his generation’s Lost Boys. Largely unmotivated about most things in life, it’s a significant possibility that he spends 70% of his waking life in his room (much like he has through high school). If he gave a little bit of effort, he’d go to college with some serious game, because he’s a damn handsome kid and witty as fuck. We hope he turns a corner, but there’s a high level of anxiety over kicking him out of the nest, for me even, and he’s not my kid. 

To add some perspective - that's a TON of boys these days.  A friend had his son at Top Golf and a girl walked up started a conversation with him, gave him her number....and he never called her.  Dad was laughing, "he wouldn't even know what to say to a girl"

What's the old saying about necessity.  

 

[Seasick Sailor 3747]

3 hours ago, Goofyboy said:

Congrats on your kid being the mascot! If they wants to continue into college, have work on their skits and film / document a lot. I was the UT mascot from 98-2001. It was an amazing experience. One of the guys on the squad became Orbit for a time and still works for the Astros.

 

2 hours ago, South Austin said:

Username checks out.

[Brisketexan 106884]

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

To add some perspective - that's a TON of boys these days.  A friend had his son at Top Golf and a girl walked up started a conversation with him, gave him her number....and he never called her.  Dad was laughing, "he wouldn't even know what to say to a girl"

What's the old saying about necessity.  

 

This is accurate for sure.  Saw lots of boys with zero clue.  Ours had SOME clue (he was decent looking enough where girls in high school went after him, so he developed a little bit of game).  But he also did a gap year after high school and for him, it was transformational.  He had to take care of his own shit (lived in a foreign country), had to navigate and finish learning a different language, and was around a diverse group of peers (young folks from multiple countries).  He learned a shitload of social skills.  Now, he has social confidence that I envy.  

In retrospect, the hyper-achieving daughter could have used such a year (but COVID would have made it pointless anyway), to develop her emotional skills and resilience.  No matter -- we are where we are with any of our kids, so you just have to play the ball as it lies.  Sometimes, you're a foot from the green.  Sometimes, you're in the goddamned rough two holes over.