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California PG&E going full regard. Preemptively shutting off power to 800,000 for up to 7 days straight in anticipation of 45 mph winds

Lhorn

By Lhorn
in Business and Markets

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AeroHorn

AeroHorn 754

Posted
Posted

Yeah, this feels like a tantrum. It is like the water company saying that they are going to shut off water supply because it is contaminated. I don't know what PG&E has actually done to address the problem. I have got alerts saying my home may not have power from tomorrow. I have completely ignored it, probably to my loss.

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Bevo

Bevo 13601

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Posted
3 hours ago, Mother mopar said:

This is the type of BS why thousands are leaving the state very year. /raises hand

I am sure California is still growing. My starter home was about 1700 sq ft., about 3/4 miles from the ocean, on a small lot. Looking at comps, it would sell for well over a million today. In the early 2000 time period, that house sold in the mid $300K. Thousands of people leave, but apparently thousands of people take their place.

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9853

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Posted
2 hours ago, Bevo said:

I am sure California is still growing. My starter home was about 1700 sq ft., about 3/4 miles from the ocean, on a small lot. Looking at comps, it would sell for well over a million today. In the early 2000 time period, that house sold in the mid $300K. Thousands of people leave, but apparently thousands of people take their place.

Lol. 

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BabaYaga

BabaYaga 15324

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We have offices out in Westlake/Thousand Oaks area and I travel out there all the time.  Talking to a manager out there this AM about it.  Apparently under California law (IC) if PG&E's equipment is found to have started a fire regardless of whether it was negligence or just happened to fallen over during extreme winds. 

PG&E is liable to every insurance company that pays out P&C claims. This isn't even talking about Tort Claims on loss of life etc. which can go 3X

So yeah - they're going to shut that power off.  They also have stupid laws on trimming along power lines. Don't require crews to cut back as far as most states. Also, in areas like where fires occur you would think underground lines would be best. But it's Cali.

I wonder how many small businesses will fail due to this.

Small margins and being forced to close for 5 days is not a good combination.

Also, the folks living at home with electric powered oxygen generators or other medical problems are screwed.

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Bevo

Bevo 13601

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Posted
59 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

We have offices out in Westlake/Thousand Oaks area and I travel out there all the time.  Talking to a manager out there this AM about it.  Apparently under California law (IC) if PG&E's equipment is found to have started a fire regardless of whether it was negligence or just happened to fallen over during extreme winds. 

PG&E is liable to every insurance company that pays out P&C claims. This isn't even talking about Tort Claims on loss of life etc. which can go 3X

So yeah - they're going to shut that power off.  They also have stupid laws on trimming along power lines. Don't require crews to cut back as far as most states. Also, in areas like where fires occur you would think underground lines would be best. But it's Cali.

I wonder how many small businesses will fail due to this.

Small margins and being forced to close for 5 days is not a good combination.

Also, the folks living at home with electric powered oxygen generators or other medical problems are screwed.

I would guess that seismic activity plays a role in the lack of underground electric lines. Maybe it is just a money thing, though. 

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BabaYaga

BabaYaga 15324

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22 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I would guess that seismic activity plays a role in the lack of underground electric lines. Maybe it is just a money thing, though. 

Money.  If you've seen the hills, they are a hell of a project to try and dig through.  Look at how steep some of those are.  The rock.  I'm sure there are thousands of pages of environmental regulations to navigate as well.  It's a mess.  Then there's future expansion concerns.  More people.  More lines are needed, etc.  

I've always heard it's a factor of 10:  above ground vs. below cost comparisons.  It's not just CA.  Think of the NE and midwest.  All the snow/ice issues and downed lines.  

181112151833-76-california-wildfires-111

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Bevo

Bevo 13601

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Money.  If you've seen the hills, they are a hell of a project to try and dig through.  Look at how steep some of those are.  The rock.  I'm sure there are thousands of pages of environmental regulations to navigate as well.  It's a mess.  Then there's future expansion concerns.  More people.  More lines are needed, etc.  

I've always heard it's a factor of 10:  above ground vs. below cost comparisons.  It's not just CA.  Think of the NE and midwest.  All the snow/ice issues and downed lines. 

It is hard to remember because I wouldn't live in a shithole, but it seems like Tracy, Modesto, Livermore, Sacramento, Central Valley, etc. all have above ground lines as well. And in the places I lived and worked including Fremont, Capitola, Cupertino and Palo Alto all those places had above ground lines as well. So terrain wouldn't be an issue in many places that have above ground lines.

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Sandman

Sandman 3414

Posted
Posted
42 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

Our west coast corporate site is in Fairfield, CA and no power due to this. They had scheduled some big sales conference onsite for today and it was a mad scramble of confusing emails last night lol.

I was born in Fairfield, so this hits close to home.

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17685

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

We have offices out in Westlake/Thousand Oaks area and I travel out there all the time.  Talking to a manager out there this AM about it.  Apparently under California law (IC) if PG&E's equipment is found to have started a fire regardless of whether it was negligence or just happened to fallen over during extreme winds. 

PG&E is liable to every insurance company that pays out P&C claims. This isn't even talking about Tort Claims on loss of life etc. which can go 3X

So yeah - they're going to shut that power off.  They also have stupid laws on trimming along power lines. Don't require crews to cut back as far as most states. Also, in areas like where fires occur you would think underground lines would be best. But it's Cali.

I wonder how many small businesses will fail due to this.

Small margins and being forced to close for 5 days is not a good combination.

Also, the folks living at home with electric powered oxygen generators or other medical problems are screwed.

I'm very confident that none of this true, or at the very least represents severe confusion about the legal issues at play. California law on insurance subrogation isn't drastically different from the laws anywhere else in the country. The insurers have claims against PG&E to the extent their insureds do. I assume folks have been asserting causes of action under negligence and strict products liability for defective products. The latter is probably what the manager was referring to, but although fault isn't a requirement for liability, there are a host of other specific elements that are and which are typically very difficult to prove. PG&E is in the shit because their practices and equipment were shit. 

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Lhorn

Lhorn 4967

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My tinfoil hat belief is that they were looking for a reason to make it hurt so that when they propose another bond measure or rate hike, the voters eagerly throw blank checks at them.

We were given warning less then 24 hours ago that my neighborhood was going to be affected.  For now the power is still on, but it's it's not windy here either so we'll see if it kicks up. I'm looking at trees in my yard and you literally have to concentrate to find a leaf that's even moving.  It's incredibly UN-windy right now.  

News has been talking about traffic signals wouldn't be operating. Stores closing, restaurants having to throw away their inventory of perishable food, where to find food banks and shelters, etc.  It's like they are preparing us for Hurricane Sandy and yet, you literally could not get a kite off the ground right now.  We'll see.  

I'm guessing it'll be egg on the face of PG&E again but who knows.  

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GringoSalado

GringoSalado 1652

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Posted
18 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I'm very confident that none of this true, or at the very least represents severe confusion about the legal issues at play. California law on insurance subrogation isn't drastically different from the laws anywhere else in the country. The insurers have claims against PG&E to the extent their insureds do. I assume folks have been asserting causes of action under negligence and strict products liability for defective products. The latter is probably what the manager was referring to, but although fault isn't a requirement for liability, there are a host of other specific elements that are and which are typically very difficult to prove. PG&E is in the shit because their practices and equipment were shit. 

NAL, NAIS,

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/464706-pge-may-shut-off-power-in-large-portions-of-california-this-week-to

Quote

Under California law, a utility can be held liable for fires its equipment causes even if the equipment is properly maintained.

So it seems that, in the Camp fire, it is/was alleged that the utility was lax in its maintenance (trimming trees in its ROW)? But that, according to CA law, it doesn't matter if they are properly maintained?

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clapclapclap

clapclapclap 9000

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2 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

Apparently under California law (IC) if PG&E's equipment is found to have started a fire regardless of whether it was negligence or just happened to fallen over during extreme winds. 

PG&E is liable to every insurance company that pays out P&C claims. This isn't even talking about Tort Claims on loss of life etc. which can go 3X

So yeah - they're going to shut that power off.  They also have stupid laws on trimming along power lines. Don't require crews to cut back as far as most states. Also, in areas like where fires occur you would think underground lines would be best. But it's Cali.

PG&E Shrugged

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17685

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33 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

NAL, NAIS,

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/464706-pge-may-shut-off-power-in-large-portions-of-california-this-week-to

So it seems that, in the Camp fire, it is/was alleged that the utility was lax in its maintenance (trimming trees in its ROW)? But that, according to CA law, it doesn't matter if they are properly maintained?

Again, you're looking at news report that lack legal context and nuisance. There are difference causes of action. One is that the utility was negligent for not properly maintaining its equipment. Another, is that utility is strictly liable for its defective products. Yes, that means the utility can be found liable absent negligence. That is what strict products liability is. But, you can't just prove the equipment caused the fire. You have to prove that the equipment was defective. There is a whole host of case law that explains what that means and how you prove it, but suffice it to say that it isn't simply or easy. 

 

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deadshank

deadshank 24653

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Posted
3 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

We have offices out in Westlake/Thousand Oaks area and I travel out there all the time.  Talking to a manager out there this AM about it.  Apparently under California law (IC) if PG&E's equipment is found to have started a fire regardless of whether it was negligence or just happened to fallen over during extreme winds. 

PG&E is liable to every insurance company that pays out P&C claims. This isn't even talking about Tort Claims on loss of life etc. which can go 3X

So yeah - they're going to shut that power off.  They also have stupid laws on trimming along power lines. Don't require crews to cut back as far as most states. Also, in areas like where fires occur you would think underground lines would be best. But it's Cali.

I wonder how many small businesses will fail due to this.

Small margins and being forced to close for 5 days is not a good combination.

Also, the folks living at home with electric powered oxygen generators or other medical problems are screwed.

spacer.png

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NeverMarryAStripper

NeverMarryAStripper 21930

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Xian said:

Load up some generators and head Cali way?

Would have to be fueled by a renewable source and conform to California regulations regarding cancer causing agents, carbon emissions, percentage of vegan workers involved in their construction, and a certain percentage must be allocated for use by the differently homed.

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AeroHorn

AeroHorn 754

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3 hours ago, Lhorn said:

My tinfoil hat belief is that they were looking for a reason to make it hurt so that when they propose another bond measure or rate hike, the voters eagerly throw blank checks at them.

We were given warning less then 24 hours ago that my neighborhood was going to be affected.  For now the power is still on, but it's it's not windy here either so we'll see if it kicks up. I'm looking at trees in my yard and you literally have to concentrate to find a leaf that's even moving.  It's incredibly UN-windy right now.  

News has been talking about traffic signals wouldn't be operating. Stores closing, restaurants having to throw away their inventory of perishable food, where to find food banks and shelters, etc.  It's like they are preparing us for Hurricane Sandy and yet, you literally could not get a kite off the ground right now.  We'll see.  

I'm guessing it'll be egg on the face of PG&E again but who knows.  

Yeah, I still have power at my home even though they said yesterday that it may be switched off within 24 hours. No wind at all.

It is the internet echo chamber that amplifies and exaggerates for clicks and idle chatter, with this thread being a prime example.

If this leads to PG&E conning us in coughing up more dough, they won't mind the "bad press" at all.

 

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bernorange

bernorange 8366

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20 hours ago, Lhorn said:

...

News has been talking about traffic signals wouldn't be operating. Stores closing, restaurants having to throw away their inventory of perishable food, where to find food banks and shelters, etc.  It's like they are preparing us for Hurricane Sandy ..

I was near the edge of the mandatory evacuation zone when Hurricane Ike barrelled up I-45 to Houston.  My area was fairly lucky in that we only lost power for ~4 days.  Some areas of Houston were without power for longer.  It's no joke when the power is down for days (especially when you have no idea when it might be restored).  This isn't the 1800's any more.  Society/civilization is dependent upon that grid.

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Asithappens

Asithappens 974

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 10/9/2019 at 1:28 AM, Mother mopar said:

This is the type of BS why thousands are leaving the state very year. /raises hand

Lol.

Keep tellin' yourself that. 

But I'm sure there are at least 2,000 leaving California b/c of stuff like this, so you're right.

 

Edited by Asithappens
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YChang

YChang 3462

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Posted
2 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

He’s right, it’s the middle class that is disappearing 

https://www.kpbs.org/news/2018/mar/15/californias-middle-class-decline-despite-states-im/

but is being replenished by the 1% and economic migrants 

There's def an affordability issue for the middle class in California. But surely you don't place a fresh college grad or young professional looking for work in tech or entertainment industry as 1% and economic migrants do you? And for those 2 industries, the state is still going to attract a lot of people.  

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Trey3216

Trey3216 15366

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Posted
1 minute ago, YChang said:

There's def an affordability issue for the middle class in California. But surely you don't place a fresh college grad or young professional looking for work in tech or entertainment industry as 1% and economic migrants do you? And for those 2 industries, the state is still going to attract a lot of people.  

No doubt, but it's going to hasten the catastrophic failure of the state and municipal government entities as well.  

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9853

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6 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

No doubt, but it's going to hasten the catastrophic failure of the state and municipal government entities as well.  

they are already at 12 % of the population and 34% of the nation's welfare

 

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/sdut-welfare-capital-of-the-us-2012jul28-htmlstory.html

 

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YChang

YChang 3462

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Posted
26 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

they are already at 12 % of the population and 34% of the nation's welfare

 

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/sdut-welfare-capital-of-the-us-2012jul28-htmlstory.html

 

Mmm... I guess this is venturing into politics but I'm in alignment with Ca's philosophy on their welfare programs. With that said, the actual process and outcomes should always be scrutinized and tweaked if it's not working. 

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