turkey/syria/kurdistan dustup or heavy action

[Hagbard Celine 10867]

completely not political take on what's going on

trump unilaterally pulled all us forces out of syria 2 days ago, western europe po'ed they weren't consulted

"IS" therefore no longer being contested/confronted; EU says they aren't paying for any captured IS forces and that's turkey's problem

sunday/monday turkey masses ground forces at the syrian border

turkey don't care about IS, they're after the kurds

there are 2 types of kurds, the ones that are (were?) "our" "friends"....

and the ones blowing up turkish weddings...

kurds say IS is suiciding "them" (one or the other or both types of kurds) and so kurds have stopped their ground actions confronting IS

turks have cut all comms at and around the border and air ops have begun

this morning the cackling hens on the view go berserk because orange man bad, we're abandoning our allies (??)

washington is silent, white house, pentagon, zero, zip, zilch nada.

flame on.

 

[TwiceHorn 31487]

I hope the kurds kick their asses.

[Wally Fairway 5550]

so your non political post talks about washington, pentagon, orange man .... well done you made it 0 posts into this thread without making political comments

I'll give you a non political comment:
- my son is schedule to head to Ft. Hood next week for about a 6 week train up exercise then heads to Kuwait, then likely to eastern Iraq. Their mission was supposed to be supporting US forces in Syria. They aren't going to pull the plug on his unit deploying, but sounds like it could be a shit-show by the time they get there.

And why were you watching the cacling hens? I saw the same thing last night on NPR, not going beserk, but questioning the logic of the pull-out without prior notification to allies and leaving the Kurds who had worked with us in eliminating ISIS cold and alone manning posts that they don't have the numbers or support to defend.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

Does Turkey’s claim that they need a 300 mile buffer zone have any legitimate basis or is it just pretext for an invasion because they have a hardon for the Kurds

Edited October 9, 2019 by Iconoclast Texan

[clapclapclap 9000]

Looking pretty bleak for the Wheys, too.

[tantric superman 4667]

2 minutes ago, clapclapclap said:

Looking pretty bleak for the Wheys, too.

I thought it was gueys, ese.

[Continental Op 3934]

OP is a weird dork

[texastough 1129]

Is there no live coverage of what's happening over there?

[justhookit 4191]

Just now, texastough said:

Is there no live coverage of what's happening over there?

It’s on Longhorn Network, which nobody gets.

[tantric superman 4667]

27 minutes ago, justhookit said:

It’s on Longhorn Network, which nobody gets.

A'longhorn Network akbar!

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

Kurds are going to be blowing up some American weddings (or something American) as well as Turkish ones in the near future, I bet.

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

5 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

Kurds are going to be blowing up some American weddings (or something American) as well as Turkish ones in the near future, I bet.

 

Hopefully its DOTARD Tower in Istanbul that gets bombed by radicalized, pissed off Kurds, not your local friendly Holiday Inn.

[XYZ 2154]

My only comment is that it’s easy for these fucking “pundits” to bitch on TV about “abandoning our allies” or whatever when they don’t have fucking skin in the game. They are not gonna be the ones getting shot at.

Edited October 9, 2019 by XYZ

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

4 minutes ago, XYZ said:

My only comment is that it’s easy for these fucking “pundits” to bitch on TV about “abandoning our allies” or whatever when they don’t have fucking skin in the game. They are not gonna be the ones getting shot at.

 

We all have skin in the game.

[Brisketexan 105151]

5 minutes ago, XYZ said:

My only comment is that it’s easy for these fucking “pundits” to bitch on TV about “abandoning our allies” or whatever when they don’t have fucking skin in the game. They are not gonna be the ones getting shot at.

Nobody was getting shot at for quite some time.....until we issued an invitation to Turkey to "go ahead and shoot those guys."

[hayden_horn 11362]

8 minutes ago, XYZ said:

My only comment is that it’s easy for these fucking “pundits” to bitch on TV about “abandoning our allies” or whatever when they don’t have fucking skin in the game. They are not gonna be the ones getting shot at.

 

[Wally Fairway 5550]

17 minutes ago, XYZ said:

My only comment is that it’s easy for these fucking “pundits” to bitch on TV about “abandoning our allies” or whatever when they don’t have fucking skin in the game. They are not gonna be the ones getting shot at.

Ummm, the Kurds have been our allies in Syria for quite a while and they have more skin in the game than the US does. As a matter of fact we may have left them as the only ones getting shot at.

Remember, it is better to battle ISIS (and other terrorist threats) on their turf then it is to have to do it our our turf. 
It's too easy to forget that, until they bring the battle closer to home.

And while I don't have any skin in the game, my son is about to have his ass in that game. 

[ChickenSandwich 9837]

Was it fighting soldiers or “advisors”. See conflicting reports on the 1000 troops. 
 

if only 1000 advisors, were our soldiers basically human shields for the Kurds? The only thing stopping Turkey was the threat of killing Americans?

How does NATO figure into the conflict in regards to Turkey?
 

 

[formermav43 4606]

15 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said:

Ummm, the Kurds have been our allies in Syria for quite a while and they have more skin in the game than the US does. As a matter of fact we may have left them as the only ones getting shot at.

Remember, it is better to battle ISIS (and other terrorist threats) on their turf then it is to have to do it our our turf. 
It's too easy to forget that, until they bring the battle closer to home.

And while I don't have any skin in the game, my son is about to have his ass in that game. 

Is it? We essentially created ISIS by destabilizing Iraq, trying to fight terrorists on their turf. Much like we inadvertently funded the rise of Al-Qaeda to fight the Soviets. Or gave money and technology to our ally Saddam Hussein to fight our enemy Iran. Who was our enemy primarily because we overthrew their legitimate government. On and on and on.

This isn’t political in the sense that leaders in both parties have blood on their hands going back over a century (or longer, depending on how you want to define the era of American Imperialism). How many new enemies will we unintentionally create in fighting our current ones? Where does it end?

[Hagbard Celine 10867]

3 hours ago, Wally Fairway said:

well done you made it 0 posts into this thread without making political comments

i haven't voted or registered to vote since 1984.  your assertion that i am using political language is post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

[Hagbard Celine 10867]

2 hours ago, Continental Op said:

OP is a weird dork

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

[Hagbard Celine 10867]

55 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said:

Ummm, the Kurds have been our allies in Syria for quite a while and they have more skin in the game than the US does. As a matter of fact we may have left them as the only ones getting shot at.

Remember, it is better to battle ISIS (and other terrorist threats) on their turf then it is to have to do it our our turf. 
It's too easy to forget that, until they bring the battle closer to home.

And while I don't have any skin in the game, my son is about to have his ass in that game. 

the kurds "were"(?) our "allies" in IRAQ, not syria, until the "war" on IS in 2014, when the kurds moved in to syria.

go read this page, digest the 7 maps, and then come back to me:

https://www.edmaps.com/html/kurdistan_in_seven_maps.html

the kurds have the same problem as the palestinians.  they don't have any land of their own and none of the regional powers are going to do anything about it.  an ally can't be stateless, just like stateless enemies can't be defeated in a symmetric conflict.

now, layer IS on top of this mess, and you'll understand why the MSM is ignoring this entire thing because it can't be chopped up for soundbite digestion by the left or right.  it's too complex, requires too much thought.  we will get coverage, but it will be delayed 12 hours while phone calls are made to agree on the talk tracks for the sheeple.

[Hank Scorpio 17729]

18 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

i haven't voted or registered to vote since 1984.  your assertion that i am using political language is post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

Hell yes. I burned off my finger prints and faked my own death and have been living in a shipping container for the last 5 years. 

[Hagbard Celine 10867]

44 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Is it? We essentially created ISIS by destabilizing Iraq, trying to fight terrorists on their turf. Much like we inadvertently funded the rise of Al-Qaeda to fight the Soviets. Or gave money and technology to our ally Saddam Hussein to fight our enemy Iran. Who was our enemy primarily because we overthrew their legitimate government. On and on and on.

This isn’t political in the sense that leaders in both parties have blood on their hands going back over a century (or longer, depending on how you want to define the era of American Imperialism). How many new enemies will we unintentionally create in fighting our current ones? Where does it end?

As i've eased in to being an "old" i have given up hope that the up/down left/right black/white 2-dimensional either/or handicap of the vast majority of civilization is going to change in my lifetime.

So i've got that going for me, which is nice.

[Hagbard Celine 10867]

8 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

Hell yes. I burned off my finger prints and faked my own death and have been living in a shipping container for the last 5 years. 

But you still have bandwidth, which by default negates any attempt to go blank.

[Armybrat 40850]

54 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Is it? We essentially created ISIS by destabilizing Iraq, trying to fight terrorists on their turf. Much like we inadvertently funded the rise of Al-Qaeda to fight the Soviets. Or gave money and technology to our ally Saddam Hussein to fight our enemy Iran. Who was our enemy primarily because we overthrew their legitimate government. On and on and on.

This isn’t political in the sense that leaders in both parties have blood on their hands going back over a century (or longer, depending on how you want to define the era of American Imperialism). How many new enemies will we unintentionally create in fighting our current ones? Where does it end?

With all due respect, The “facts” in your post are 50% bullshit propaganda.

[Hagbard Celine 10867]

55 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

our enemy Iran. Who was our enemy primarily because we overthrew their legitimate government.

Less than one tenth of one percent of your fellow citizens know about this.

[Armybrat 40850]

29 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

Sounds like proctologist lingo...... which is entirely proper for the CR. 

[Hagbard Celine 10867]

1 minute ago, Armybrat said:

With all due respect, The “facts” in your post are 50% bullshit propaganda.

actually, army, no, he's 100% factually correct. he only names 2 instances of US 20th century fun and games, a single instance of 21st century fun and games, and there are about 3 dozen over the past 125 years.

[formermav43 4606]

2 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

With all due respect, The “facts” in your post are 50% bullshit propaganda.

Which ones? I’m not afraid to admit when I’m wrong, I don’t pretend to be an expert in foreign policy. 

[Hagbard Celine 10867]

1 minute ago, Armybrat said:

Sounds like proctologist lingo...... which is entirely proper for the CR. 

no, it's not political, it's a logic fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

[Hagbard Celine 10867]

5 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Which ones? I’m not afraid to admit when I’m wrong, I don’t pretend to be an expert in foreign policy. 

History is not political, unless you consider facts to be evil bearers of cognitive dissonance.  Here are the facts for the 3 cases you cited, for Army's benefit, if he chooses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda#History

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran–Iraq_War

 

 

[Hagbard Celine 10867]

and while i'm not even discussing the elephants in the room, i thought i would just go ahead and post the prestige buried deep in the 3rd posted wiki...

++++

[T]he United States actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing U.S. military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure that Iraq had the military weaponry required. The United States also provided strategic operational advice to the Iraqis to better use their assets in combat ... The CIA, including both CIA Director Casey and Deputy Director Gates, knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to Iraq. My notes, memoranda and other documents in my NSC files show or tend to show that the CIA knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, munitions and vehicles to Iraq.^[28]

Play media

 

Donald Rumsfeld meets Saddām on 19–20 December 1983. Rumsfeld visited again on 24 March 1984, the day the UN reported that Iraq had used mustard gas and tabun nerve agent against Iranian troops. The NY Times reported from Baghdad on 29 March 1984, that "American diplomats pronounce themselves satisfied with Iraq and the U.S., and suggest that normal diplomatic ties have been established in all but name."^[26]

The full extent of these covert transfers is not yet known. Teicher's files on the subject are held securely at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library and many other Reagan Era documents that could help shine new light on the subject remain classified. Teicher declined to discuss details of the affidavit with the Washington Post shortly before the 2003 invasion of Iraq.^[29]

[Hagbard Celine 10867]

history is not political. owning the truth is not running down america.

only aggy is allowed those crutches.  the rest of have to be held to a higher standard.

[Dutchrudder 11139]

I found a map that kind of helps you understand what is going on. I didn't realize how much territory the Kurds had taken in Syria, but it's a lot. I'm not quite sure what Turkey has to gain by this attack, but I assume it's because they don't want the Kurds to carve out a piece of eastern Turkey for themselves, and Syria/Assad won't mind if the Kurds are attacked. 

 

[Hagbard Celine 10867]

great map!

translation: it's all fucked up.

which is good for business.

ferengi rule of acquisition #191009.

[Kavinsky 417]

10 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

and while i'm not even discussing the elephants in the room, i thought i would just go ahead and post the prestige buried deep in the 3rd posted wiki...

++++

[T]he United States actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing U.S. military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure that Iraq had the military weaponry required. The United States also provided strategic operational advice to the Iraqis to better use their assets in combat ... The CIA, including both CIA Director Casey and Deputy Director Gates, knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to Iraq. My notes, memoranda and other documents in my NSC files show or tend to show that the CIA knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, munitions and vehicles to Iraq.^[28]

Play media

 

Donald Rumsfeld meets Saddām on 19–20 December 1983. Rumsfeld visited again on 24 March 1984, the day the UN reported that Iraq had used mustard gas and tabun nerve agent against Iranian troops. The NY Times reported from Baghdad on 29 March 1984, that "American diplomats pronounce themselves satisfied with Iraq and the U.S., and suggest that normal diplomatic ties have been established in all but name."^[26]

The full extent of these covert transfers is not yet known. Teicher's files on the subject are held securely at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library and many other Reagan Era documents that could help shine new light on the subject remain classified. Teicher declined to discuss details of the affidavit with the Washington Post shortly before the 2003 invasion of Iraq.^[29]

We didn't learn after lend/leasing t-34s to Ivan and we sure as shit didn't think of the repercussions of aiding Iraq in their scuffle with Iran and the Mujahedeen vs Ivan. "Enemy of my enemy" shouldn't be a qualifier for military aid.

 

  

[El Diablo 4232]

I never could keep it all straight, who the good guys were, who the bad guys were... IIRC the poster @MillerEPkept pretty good tabs on the action over there.

[Anastasis 23473]

1 hour ago, El Diablo said:

I never could keep it all straight, who the good guys were, who the bad guys were...

Which ones buy more F16s?

[Hagbard Celine 10867]

1 hour ago, Dutchrudder said:

I found a map that kind of helps you understand what is going on. I didn't realize how much territory the Kurds had taken in Syria, but it's a lot. I'm not quite sure what Turkey has to gain by this attack, but I assume it's because they don't want the Kurds to carve out a piece of eastern Turkey for themselves, and Syria/Assad won't mind if the Kurds are attacked. 

 

does anyone know what the difference is between syrian rebels and syrian opposition?

also what are those blotches in southern syria?  the grey ones - are they the same thing or other things?

thanks cnn, for not finishing the map.

[InkaUtexas 25951]

Just now, Hagbard Celine said:

does anyone know what the difference is between syrian rebels and syrian opposition?

also what are those blotches in southern syria?  the grey ones - are they the same thing or other things?

thanks cnn, for not finishing the map.

The grey are places no one goes or cares about. Lots of those places in the middle of the Arabian peninsula. 

[staboner 4974]

the Middle East and oil ladies and gentlemen...bringing you live entertainment for the last 60 years. tuck in! its the same shit its always been

 

[Armybrat 40850]

1 hour ago, Hagbard Celine said:

and while i'm not even discussing the elephants in the room, i thought i would just go ahead and post the prestige buried deep in the 3rd posted wiki...

++++

[T]he United States actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing U.S. military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure that Iraq had the military weaponry required. The United States also provided strategic operational advice to the Iraqis to better use their assets in combat ... The CIA, including both CIA Director Casey and Deputy Director Gates, knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to Iraq. My notes, memoranda and other documents in my NSC files show or tend to show that the CIA knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, munitions and vehicles to Iraq.^[28]

Play media

 

Donald Rumsfeld meets Saddām on 19–20 December 1983. Rumsfeld visited again on 24 March 1984, the day the UN reported that Iraq had used mustard gas and tabun nerve agent against Iranian troops. The NY Times reported from Baghdad on 29 March 1984, that "American diplomats pronounce themselves satisfied with Iraq and the U.S., and suggest that normal diplomatic ties have been established in all but name."^[26]

The full extent of these covert transfers is not yet known. Teicher's files on the subject are held securely at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library and many other Reagan Era documents that could help shine new light on the subject remain classified. Teicher declined to discuss details of the affidavit with the Washington Post shortly before the 2003 invasion of Iraq.^[29]

A lot of twisted revisionism, and Wikipedia is not a credible source. Sorry, no cigar.

this is precisely why I quit the CR. There is no aguing with anyone who belives all of that.

Carry on.

[staboner 4974]

serious question here or anyone that has read up or has some feel for Turkey these days - is Turkey dropping in to just kill Kurds or are they potentially making a land grab of oil in Northern Syria?

Asking for a friend

eerrr my family actually. My nervous AF family close by.

I don't know enough about the true ambitions of Ergododickheadawan but I do know he is trying to make a natural resource play in Cyprus right now that has old fears flamed up

Edited October 9, 2019 by staboner

[Armybrat 40850]

21 minutes ago, staboner said:

the Middle East and oil ladies and gentlemen...bringing you live entertainment for the last 60 years. tuck in! its the same shit its always been

 

This is correct, except it goes back to the times the Brits fucked it up, then the thousand years before that when the locals did it to themselves.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21907]

Turkey hates the Kurds and doesn't want to lose territory to them so I'm sure they would love to kill them all.

[J.R. 150]

4 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

We all have skin in the game.

Some skin that’s get blown off more precisely by the next generation of Kurds who are raised to intensely hate the US and everything that it stands for, just like in Iraq and Afghanistan (x2) before that. We already saw what gen x afghans are capable of. Going to be a rough 50 years if we don’t get our shit straight and locked down. 

[Anastasis 23473]

33 minutes ago, staboner said:

serious question here or anyone that has read up or has some feel for Turkey these days - is Turkey dropping in to just kill Kurds or are they potentially making a land grab of oil in Northern Syria?

Asking for a friend

eerrr my family actually. My nervous AF family close by.

I don't know enough about the true ambitions of Ergododickheadawan but I do know he is trying to make a natural resource play in Cyprus right now that has old fears flamed up

Needs a place to stash all the Syrian refugees that are in turkey at the moment. I guess he figures the best place to stash some Syrians is Syria. 

[Brisketexan 105151]

4 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Some skin that’s get blown off more precisely by the next generation of Kurds who are raised to intensely hate the US and everything that it stands for, just like in Iraq and Afghanistan (x2) before that. We already saw what gen x afghans are capable of. Going to be a rough 50 years if we don’t get our shit straight and locked down. 

If you were a Kurd right now, would you be a) less likely or b) more likely to aim some of your violent ire at Americans and US interests in the coming months?

Turning our friends into violent enemies, for a generation or more.  For.....what?  I truly don't get it.

[Schulz2.0 28957]

45 minutes ago, staboner said:

serious question here or anyone that has read up or has some feel for Turkey these days - is Turkey dropping in to just kill Kurds or are they potentially making a land grab of oil in Northern Syria?

Asking for a friend

eerrr my family actually. My nervous AF family close by.

I don't know enough about the true ambitions of Ergododickheadawan but I do know he is trying to make a natural resource play in Cyprus right now that has old fears flamed up

Erdogan is a huge POS. He has taken Turkey from a secular democracy to essentially a religious authoritarian regime.