YESSS, FINALLY!!! - Masters of the Air - The 8th Air Force, Spielberg, Hanks, Goetzman (Crew behind Band of Brothers, Pacific)

[kevwun 15488]

Covid screwed Greyhound.  It's an excellent movie.

[Js1 84934]

It was.  I think I will rewatch it this weekend. 

[Bateshorn 9853]

On 1/27/2024 at 9:03 PM, Pato del Muerto said:

Was it the 38 or the 51 that was not competitive in the air until we stuffed the Merlins in them?

The problem with the 38 is they had all sorts of aerodynamic issues when diving because they were so fast, which meant they had to be throttled back in combat, allowing the Germans to feast on them when escorting bombers. They could climb, but not dive. P-47s had the opposite problem: They could dive but not climb (because they were so large and heavy). 

[RPM 26146]

17 hours ago, Deej said:

Austin Butler sounds like he can't shake the Elvis role. 

He spent 3 years making Elvis and had 1 week off before starting MotA. That's a ridiculously short amount of time. He had a dialect coach working with him to make sure he didn't start doing The King. I have no idea what he sounded like before.

23 hours ago, Chad Fuck said:

2. The Gen Z actors don't appear to be able to replicate the attitudes of the Greatest Generation in this film.

I think Bucky and the new CO Harding are great.

[CurlyDumps 4415]

On 1/26/2024 at 4:55 PM, Chico_SA said:

One of my favorite movies is Memphis Belle. First two episodes make me want to watch it tonight. 

 

 

This movie profoundly affected me as a kid. It must have contributed to my later obsession with the computer game Aces of the Pacific.

[GreenspointTexas 9471]

Watched Greyhound last weekend. Badass movie

[atomheartbevo 89284]

35 minutes ago, CurlyDumps said:

This movie profoundly affected me as a kid. It must have contributed to my later obsession with the computer game Aces of the Pacific.

Their Finest Hour: Battle of Britain & Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe

[kevwun 15488]

Someone should have punched LeMay in the face for that one.

[Bateshorn 9853]

55 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Someone should have punched LeMay in the face for that one.

There were a lot of reasons LeMay needed a good ass kicking.

[Firemans4Horn 17672]

Some of the air to air battle scenes seemed like they were from a very bad video game. Not enjoying this that much as a result. 

[atomheartbevo 89284]

Lot of people expecting something in the vein of Band of Brothers

Spoiler

are going to be surprised at how many characters are being killed just three episodes in.

Barry Keoghan fans going to be pissed.

 

Edited February 2 by atomheartbevo

[atomheartbevo 89284]

 

 

[rage-a-holic 4257]

Praise to lord satan for killing off that horrible creepy weirdo fuck Barry K and please don't let him ever be cast in anything ever again. Amen.

[BearSchlong 8067]

Did anybody else have the Time Life collection in their study growing up?

I read every single one e cover to cover when I was 12.

[BearSchlong 8067]

Praise to lord satan for killing off that horrible creepy weirdo fuck Barry K and please don't let him ever be cast in anything ever again. Amen.

No way man, he’s great. Kinda funny looking like John Bernthal, or Steve Busceme.

[rage-a-holic 4257]

5 minutes ago, BearSchlong said:

No way man, he’s great. Kinda funny looking like John Bernthal, or Steve Busceme.

 

[RPM 26146]

3 hours ago, BearSchlong said:

Did anybody else have the Time Life collection in their study growing up?

I read every single one e cover to cover when I was 12.

We had The Old West

[Doc Sam Beckett 5781]

4 hours ago, rage-a-holic said:

Praise to lord satan for killing off that horrible creepy weirdo fuck Barry K and please don't let him ever be cast in anything ever again. Amen.

You're out of your element, here Donny 

Barry has been awesome. 

"turns out they hate the English too, but they love me, because I'm Irish" 

"You're not Irish!!" 

[Chad Fuck 17429]

We had The Old West

Epic of Flight here.

[GreenspointTexas 9471]

Best episode so far

 

the shot of the aerial fight from the navigator/nose POV was insane. 

[BearSchlong 8067]

Crosby was a bonafide badass. His book was one of the best wartime memoirs I’ve read.

[RPM 26146]

2 minutes ago, BearSchlong said:

Crosby was a bonafide badass.

I've been seasick. It's debilitating. I can't imagine how he could make accurate navigation calculations during that. Certified Badass.

[Pato del Muerto 52184]

7 hours ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

You're out of your element, here Donny 

Barry has been awesome. 

"turns out they hate the English too, but they love me, because I'm Irish" 

"You're not Irish!!" 

I feel like I caught a couple or 3 lines that they must have written tongue in cheek for him once he was cast. 

[BearSchlong 8067]

Best episode so far
 
the shot of the aerial fight from the navigator/nose POV was insane. 

It was. Anyone who thinks the CGI wasn’t realistic has awfully impossible standards.

Lt Col Bierne Lay took all the reports and wrote a composite narrative of that fight that was published in the Saturday Evening Post.

Cleven’s “You son of a bitch, you sit there and take it” rant at Norman Scott almost won him the Medal of Honor, and it ruined Scott. Per Crosby, he flew a few more missions but was then returned to the states by the medics as a “combat failure.”

[BearSchlong 8067]

Headed to my stepmoms later today to see if I can find the logbook, but her dad was a pilot in the https://www.americanairmuseum.com/archive/unit/483rd-bomb-group

[BearSchlong 8067]

It was. Anyone who thinks the CGI wasn’t realistic has awfully impossible standards.

Lt Col Bierne Lay took all the reports and wrote a composite narrative of that fight that was published in the Saturday Evening Post.

Cleven’s “You son of a bitch, you sit there and take it” rant at Norman Scott almost won him the Medal of Honor, and it ruined Scott. Per Crosby, he flew a few more missions but was then returned to the states by the medics as a “combat failure.”

Not surprising, he wasn’t quoted directly.

https://archive.org/details/sim_saturday-evening-post_1943-11-06_216_19/page/88/mode/1up

[F250 28597]

15 hours ago, BearSchlong said:

Did anybody else have the Time Life collection in their study growing up?

I read every single one e cover to cover when I was 12.

I had the Vietnam set and probably read it a hundred times as a kid.

[bschoolprof 6223]

I'm sure there was a good reason, or simply a reason, to go to Africa.  And one of you WW2 buffs will be along to tell my why. 

But the show sure as shit didn't really explain it, at least not well. To confuse the Germans? OK.

[atomheartbevo 89284]

11 minutes ago, bschoolprof said:

I'm sure there was a good reason, or simply a reason, to go to Africa.  And one of you WW2 buffs will be along to tell my why. 

But the show sure as shit didn't really explain it, at least not well. To confuse the Germans? OK.

There was a good reason.  Flying south, they would face far less opposition than they did coming in.  Leadership knew that they’d be torn up just getting to the targets, and that most wouldn’t survive the round trip.

[bschoolprof 6223]

5 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

There was a good reason.  Flying south, they would face far less opposition than they did coming in.  Leadership knew that they’d be torn up just getting to the targets, and that most wouldn’t survive the round trip.

Makes sense - thanks.  

[atomheartbevo 89284]

18 hours ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

You're out of your element, here Donny 

Barry has been awesome. 

"turns out they hate the English too, but they love me, because I'm Irish" 

"You're not Irish!!" 

This is who he portrayed

https://www.americanairmuseum.com/archive/person/curtis-rundle-biddick

If people looked up the cast, they’d be surprised how many of these guys would be killed off fairly quickly.  Like I said, something like 14% of the 350 original group members would make it to their 25 missions.

And things are only going to get worse after this last episode.  I’ve been really surprised at how many thought it would be Band of Brothers and we’d follow 15 or 20 guys through all the episodes, instead of most of them being killed or captured.

Edited February 4 by atomheartbevo

[FartingMonk 3605]

The scene of the guy falling from the sky and getting chopped in half by a airplane wing was unexpected 

[atomheartbevo 89284]

9 hours ago, BearSchlong said:

Not surprising, he wasn’t quoted directly.

The Medal of Honor nomination was the basis for the Distinguished Service Cross, which is just below the Medal of Honor and apparently he said what he said on this raid and not the one we just saw:

CLEVEN, GALE W. (POW) DSC Synopsis:

The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Distinguished Service Cross to Gale W. Cleven, Major (Air Corps), U.S. Army Air Forces, for extraordinary heroism in connection with military operations against an armed enemy while serving as Pilot of a B-17 Heavy Bomber in the 350th Bombardment Squadron, 100th Bombardment Group (H), EIGHTH Air Force, while participating in a bombing mission on 17 August 1943, against enemy ground targets in Bremen, Germany. On that date, Major Cleven was leader of the low squadron. Throughout approximately two hours of constant fighter attack, his squadron was the principal focal point of the enemy's fire. Early in the encounter, south of Antwerp, he lost his entire second element of three B-17's yet maintained his vulnerable and exposed position in the formation rigidly in order to keep his guns uncovered. Approximately 30 minutes before reaching the target, his airplane received the following battle damage. A 20- mm. cannon shell penetrated the right side of the airplane and exploded beneath the pilot, damaging the electrical system and injuring the top turret gunner in the leg. A second 20-mm. shell entered the radio compartment, killing the radio operator, who bled to death with his legs severed above the knees. A third 20-mm. shell entered the left side of the nose, tearing out a section of Plexiglas about two feet square, tore away the right hand nose-gun installation and injured the bombardier in the head and shoulder. A fourth 20 mm shell entered the cabin roof and severed the rudder cables to one side of the rudder. A sixth 20 mm cannon shell exploded in the #3 engine, destroying all engine controls. The engine caught fire and lost its power, but the fire eventually died out. Confronted with structural damage, partial loss of control, fire in the air and serious injuries to personnel, and faced with fresh waves of fighters still rising to the attack, Major Cleven had every justification for abandoning ship. His crew, some of them comparatively inexperienced youngsters, were preparing to bail out, since no other course appeared open. The Co-Pilot pleaded repeatedly with Major Cleven to abandon ship. Major Cleven's reply at this critical juncture, although the odds were overwhelmingly against him, was as follows, " You son of a bitch, you sit there and take it. " These strong words were heard over the inter-phone and had a magical effect on the crew. They stuck to their guns. The airplane continued to the target, bombed it and reached base in North Africa. Major Cleven's actions were far above and beyond the call of duty and the skill, courage and strength of will displayed by him as airplane and squadron commander in the face of hopeless odds have seldom, if ever, been surpassed in the annals of the Army Air Forces. The personal courage and devotion to duty displayed by Major Cleven on this occasion have upheld the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, the 8th Air Force, and the United States Army Air Forces.

Headquarters: European Theater of Operations, U.S. Army, General Orders No. 61 (1943)

———
Newspaper articles about it, as well as Cleven’s career

https://100thbg.com/personnel/?personnel_id=91

If anybody is curious about Buck Cleven’s life

Spoiler

Following his return from Europe, Cleven married Marjorie Spencer in Lovington, New Mexico on July 3, 1945. John Egan served as the best man. Marjorie had been Cleven’s childhood sweetheart in Wyoming, and the two reconnected in Texas while Cleven was attending cadet training and Marjorie was in school at Texas Tech University. Marjorie died unexpectedly died of a brain aneurysm in 1953, and her death broke Cleven’s heart as she was the love of his life. In Cleven’s final years he still maintained a photo of Marjorie on his mantle.

After WWII, Cleven finished his undergraduate degree in mathematics at the University of Wyoming. Cleven cited the lack of money for mathematicians, and subsequently obtained a degree in Geology. Cleven obtained an M.B.A. from Harvard University in 1949. Cleven remained in the USAF and conducted atomic energy research during the Korean War. Cleven held a number of assignments in the USAF and was stationed at bases including, but not limited to, Norton AFB, Sandia AFB, and Bolling AFB. Cleven was ultimately promoted to full colonel. Cleven obtained a PHD in Astrophysics from Georgetown University in 1962, and wrote a dissertation titled “An astrometrical study of the region of Orion to utilize a method of amending astrographic data”

 

Edited February 4 by atomheartbevo

[atomheartbevo 89284]

Interview with Harry Crosby from 1993 and he discusses his book (sport of the basis for this show)

 

[atomheartbevo 89284]

Shit, he mentions that in May of ‘43, there were 140 officers with the 35 crews, and 3 1/2 months later, there were only 3 of the original officers left still flying.

LMAO he mentions how he was always airsick

Edited February 4 by atomheartbevo

[atomheartbevo 89284]

Holy shit, those guys were brutal to people they didn’t like.  If you don’t want to watch the video above, spoiled below

Spoiler

They had a bombardier they hated, who was going to be the group lead, and so over a target the pilot shook the airplane, said they’d been hit, and he hit the bailout alarm.  Only the bombardier bailed out and become a POW, because the rest of the crew were in on the joke and knew not to bail out.

[Captainant 27191]

9 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

The Medal of Honor nomination was the basis for the Distinguished Service Cross, which is just below the Medal of Honor and apparently he said what he said on this raid and not the one we just saw:

CLEVEN, GALE W. (POW) DSC Synopsis:

The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Distinguished Service Cross to Gale W. Cleven, Major (Air Corps), U.S. Army Air Forces, for extraordinary heroism in connection with military operations against an armed enemy while serving as Pilot of a B-17 Heavy Bomber in the 350th Bombardment Squadron, 100th Bombardment Group (H), EIGHTH Air Force, while participating in a bombing mission on 17 August 1943, against enemy ground targets in Bremen, Germany. On that date, Major Cleven was leader of the low squadron. Throughout approximately two hours of constant fighter attack, his squadron was the principal focal point of the enemy's fire. Early in the encounter, south of Antwerp, he lost his entire second element of three B-17's yet maintained his vulnerable and exposed position in the formation rigidly in order to keep his guns uncovered. Approximately 30 minutes before reaching the target, his airplane received the following battle damage. A 20- mm. cannon shell penetrated the right side of the airplane and exploded beneath the pilot, damaging the electrical system and injuring the top turret gunner in the leg. A second 20-mm. shell entered the radio compartment, killing the radio operator, who bled to death with his legs severed above the knees. A third 20-mm. shell entered the left side of the nose, tearing out a section of Plexiglas about two feet square, tore away the right hand nose-gun installation and injured the bombardier in the head and shoulder. A fourth 20 mm shell entered the cabin roof and severed the rudder cables to one side of the rudder. A sixth 20 mm cannon shell exploded in the #3 engine, destroying all engine controls. The engine caught fire and lost its power, but the fire eventually died out. Confronted with structural damage, partial loss of control, fire in the air and serious injuries to personnel, and faced with fresh waves of fighters still rising to the attack, Major Cleven had every justification for abandoning ship. His crew, some of them comparatively inexperienced youngsters, were preparing to bail out, since no other course appeared open. The Co-Pilot pleaded repeatedly with Major Cleven to abandon ship. Major Cleven's reply at this critical juncture, although the odds were overwhelmingly against him, was as follows, " You son of a bitch, you sit there and take it. " These strong words were heard over the inter-phone and had a magical effect on the crew. They stuck to their guns. The airplane continued to the target, bombed it and reached base in North Africa. Major Cleven's actions were far above and beyond the call of duty and the skill, courage and strength of will displayed by him as airplane and squadron commander in the face of hopeless odds have seldom, if ever, been surpassed in the annals of the Army Air Forces. The personal courage and devotion to duty displayed by Major Cleven on this occasion have upheld the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, the 8th Air Force, and the United States Army Air Forces.

Headquarters: European Theater of Operations, U.S. Army, General Orders No. 61 (1943)

———
Newspaper articles about it, as well as Cleven’s career

https://100thbg.com/personnel/?personnel_id=91

If anybody is curious about Buck Cleven’s life

  Reveal hidden contents

Following his return from Europe, Cleven married Marjorie Spencer in Lovington, New Mexico on July 3, 1945. John Egan served as the best man. Marjorie had been Cleven’s childhood sweetheart in Wyoming, and the two reconnected in Texas while Cleven was attending cadet training and Marjorie was in school at Texas Tech University. Marjorie died unexpectedly died of a brain aneurysm in 1953, and her death broke Cleven’s heart as she was the love of his life. In Cleven’s final years he still maintained a photo of Marjorie on his mantle.

After WWII, Cleven finished his undergraduate degree in mathematics at the University of Wyoming. Cleven cited the lack of money for mathematicians, and subsequently obtained a degree in Geology. Cleven obtained an M.B.A. from Harvard University in 1949. Cleven remained in the USAF and conducted atomic energy research during the Korean War. Cleven held a number of assignments in the USAF and was stationed at bases including, but not limited to, Norton AFB, Sandia AFB, and Bolling AFB. Cleven was ultimately promoted to full colonel. Cleven obtained a PHD in Astrophysics from Georgetown University in 1962, and wrote a dissertation titled “An astrometrical study of the region of Orion to utilize a method of amending astrographic data”

 

Those 20mm shells were likely minnengeschoß shells

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_shell

Basically an aerial belt felt grenade launcher, just one or two shells in the right place could take a wing or half the fuselage. 

Thanks for linking that article though, the scene in the show was remarkably close to that newspaper clipping

[atomheartbevo 89284]

One of the actors’ grandfathers was Rosie Rosenthal

 

[Js1 84934]

Damn 

[atomheartbevo 89284]

 

Also, would take a spin-off series about the resistance moving airmen out of danger.

[BurntEyes 5737]

On 1/30/2024 at 1:18 PM, CurlyDumps said:

This movie profoundly affected me as a kid. It must have contributed to my later obsession with the computer game Aces of the Pacific.

That had a noticeable effect as did this cover album and song.

Edited February 9 by BurntEyes

[kingkoopa6 8282]

at first I was like babe Ruth dodgers? What? 
 

wish they let us figure out who was lying  

 

Edited February 9 by kingkoopa6

[kingkoopa6 8282]

10 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

 

Also, would take a spin-off series about the resistance moving airmen out of danger.

A bunch of baddies back in the 1940s associated with the war. 
 

id be falling in love with every chick I met in every country 

[atomheartbevo 89284]

Some historian on YouTube: “Episode 4 was very accurate except for the lovemaking scene. Major Egan preferred to take his lovers from behind, not face-to-face, as a frontal maneuver reminded him too much of the frontal assaults of the Luftwaffe.”

[Helobious 9456]

So like… is the show any good? Doesn’t really sound like it. This thread is 5% about the show and 95% irrelevant WW2 talk. Not seeing anything to convince me to watch yet.

[BearSchlong 8067]

We report. You decide.

(it's great btw)

[4th&Five 41390]

nobody cares if you watch it.

[BillyGoatHill 4276]

On 1/27/2024 at 2:09 PM, HouTex said:

It didn’t stop Churchill.  He flew in a B-24 (also not pressurized like the B-17) during the war and had his oxygen mask modified so that he could smoke his cigars during his long flights.  

24's and 17's were NOT pressurized. Huge openings for those waist gunners 🤷‍♂️

B29's that flew in the Pacific theater were the first mass produced pressurized (by design) bomber.

On 1/28/2024 at 6:59 PM, kevwun said:

The show doesn't have the chin turrets on any of the planes, so there's at least one more version of the B-17 before the war ends.

Year is 1943....The G model with the chin turret was end of '44-early 45.

On 1/27/2024 at 8:03 PM, Pato del Muerto said:

Was it the 38 or the 51 that was not competitive in the air until we stuffed the Merlins in them?

And that wasn't us at first. The Brits did that when the early models that we produced specifically for and gave them performed poorly with the Allison engines (no high altitude supercharger) at higher altitudes. The Brits used those first 51's for low altitude (below 15000 ft) fighters and reconnaisance . They experimented with the Rolls Royce Engine first with some of them, had the North American plants (and Packard) here in the US  start producing them with the new powerplants instead of the Allison's and the rest is history.

On 1/28/2024 at 6:10 PM, kevwun said:

I believe there were actually more B-24's in service than the B-17, but the 17 was more famous and gets more attention.  Also, there was a B-17 that had the entire top tail section shot off once that managed to fly back to it's base and land.

Yep, more 24's were produced and argument could be made for stronger contributor for dropping bombs (bigger payload), the 24 probably doesn't get the love due to the survival factor. The Liberators had a higher chance of catching fire and and the high wing to the fuselage made it hard to survive ditching or crash landings. The wings also departed from the aircraft due to the higher wing when hit by flak. 

About 20 years ago I had the chance to get inside both a 17 (the one that crashed last yr) and a 24 when they came to the Tacoma Narrows Airport. $20 to tour inside both. Surprising how little room there was in each and I am not a big guy (5'9) More surprising though was that the 24 was a much bigger airframe, but

there was even less room INSIDE than what the 17 seemed to have. I thought then and still do now it would have been much more difficult to get our of a stricken 24 than a 17.  

Good reading for the 24 is Stephen Ambroses book The Wild Blue. Does a great job of covering George McGovern (who never exploited this when running for president) and his time flying 24s out of Italy. Little different also noted with him is that you flew with different people and crews each flight where as the 8th and 17's, crews stayed the same unless killed or wounded.

[atomheartbevo 89284]

15 minutes ago, Helobious said:

So like… is the show any good?

Yes, it’s just different than BOB and Pacific.  Imagine if the entirety of Easy Company was lost during every episode. 

[BillyGoatHill 4276]

On 2/3/2024 at 10:22 PM, FartingMonk said:

The scene of the guy falling from the sky and getting chopped in half by a airplane wing was unexpected 

That same thing happened in the movie Memphis Belle (dude falling from a 17 in front and without a chute on)