Fort Worth Police Kill Woman Inside Her Own Home

[hayden_horn 11362]

37 minutes ago, 4th and 5 said:

I agree that there was some very poor procedure and a lack of common sense here

i am just pointing out things that may have gone to the officer’s state of mind at the time.

sure, i get how you are viewing this situation.

i cannot get past the cops not announcing their presence. it gets even worse now that we know the storm door was closed while the front door was open. did the cops knock on the door/ring the bell? i'm assuming that if the front door was open and the storm door closed, but that he front door was open to let the cool air in, the cops would have been able to call through the storm door window, which was presumably open, or knocked on that door and announced themselves.

the cop's frame of mind is of his own making, in my opinion.

[hopkinsnhorns 533]

29 minutes ago, 4th and 5 said:

Respectfully sir, you know nothing about vision and perception, or adaptation, as it relates to human beings

Start here: http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/nightvision.html

also I watch more police body cams in one day than you have seen in your life

That was a good read and I appreciate your experience on the matter.

That said, I still maintain that the visual acuity of the officer vastly outperforms the bodycam, specifically in low-light scenarios.  It'd be one thing if she shined a floodlight in his eyes right before he pulled the trigger, but I don't know how well "I couldn't accurately access the threat due to the low light conditions, hence I feared for my life and fired my service weapon," will play before an impartial jury.  I'm sure the defense will use it as they're going to be grasping at straws to justify the unjustifiable use of force and extreme ineptitude of the officer's response to a welfare check, but I'm not buying it.

[Guest Lobo]

35 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

While we're at it, can somebody clarify the distinction between a clip and a magazine? Venn diagram might be useful.

 

 

All clips are from magazines, but not all magazines are clips.  Oh wait, I was talking about my collage.  Nevermind.  

[crash_davis 23113]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yes.  However, child testimony is always a problem.  It always presents credibility/suggestion issues.  Yet, no one really wants to cross the shit out of an eight year old in front of a jury.  Whether they even put him on the stand presents significant issues.

Texas Tribune has an article that conflicts in some respects with the other coverage (may be a result of the timing of the article) https://www.texastribune.org/2019/10/13/fort-worth-police-officer-shoots-and-kills-black-woman-home/

An interesting tidbit:

*lying.

yes, the police are lying.

[Orange&White 5528]

2 hours ago, hopkinsnhorns said:

You're assuming that what is seen by the body cam is the same as what is seen by the officer.  Humans have pretty good adaptability to low-light vision, much better than the shitty camera the officer was wearing.

 

2 hours ago, 4th and 5 said:

Respectfully sir, you know nothing about vision and perception, or adaptation, as it relates to human beings

Start here: http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/nightvision.html

also I watch more police body cams in one day than you have seen in your life

I don't usually have much info to contribute on these threads, but in this case, I can say that the Body Cam he was wearing is made by Axon and that company specifically retards the lighting of their cameras for cases exactly like this. Most other body camera companies do something similar.

I've sat through one of their sales pitches and they are very cognizant of the fact that if they used all of the technology available in their recording capabilities, it would be much, much more clear than the human eye can actually detect. And they are also aware that their recordings have a very high likelihood of being introduced in cases just like this. So, they can't have a body camera video coming back so incredibly crystal clear that it is actually a determent to the Officer, because the Officer could not actually see as clearly as a camera could potentially shoot.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Orange&White

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Odd factoid.  Lee Merritt, DFW civil rights gadfly, is an attorney not admitted to practice in the state of Texas.

That does not inhibit his appearance in federal court in Texas.

However, I am fairly certain that his representation of Texans in Texas involves the unauthorized practice of law.

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/crime/article222794210.html

"Sixteen complaints against a civil rights attorney from Philadelphia for practicing law in Texas without a license have been dropped, S. Lee Merritt announced on Friday.

Merritt has gained attention for handling high-profile civil rights cases, mostly involving police misconduct allegations. This includes Jacqueline Craig of Fort Worth; the family of Jordan Edwards, who was killed by former Balch Springs police officer Roy Oliver; the family of O’Shae Terry, who was killed by an Arlington police officer in September; and the family of Botham Jean, who was killed by a Dallas police officer three months ago.

Merritt’s ability to represent clients in Texas courts was challenged by the Unauthorized Practice of Law Committee, a panel established by the Texas Supreme Court. The committee filed a complaint in January in Tarrant County asking that a judge grant a temporary restraining order prohibiting Merritt from practicing law in Texas, but then filed a motion asking the court to withdraw that complaint. The group refiled in Collin County.

In January, Merritt responded by saying that he only practices in Texas federal courts, making the complaint frivolous. Merritt also works in conjunction with licensed state attorneys, he has said. On Friday, Merritt said the Texas justice system was used as a tool to suppress the rights of the most vulnerable."

He's actually based in Philly. The only reason he's been in the limelight so much in Texas is because we've had a number of high profile cases lately.  I doubt Crump and some of the other Civil rights attorneys passed the bar in every state in the union before becoming the public face for various civil rights violations across the land.  

Edited October 16, 2019 by Catdaddyhorn

[atomheartbevo 89675]

4 hours ago, 4th and 5 said:

amd shit scattered around may have made him uneasy about a crime in progress

He shouldn't be a cop in Texas if that's the case, particularly in rural areas.

I mean, we're not exactly Oklahoma-level of messiness where even the kids toys are up on blocks, but we've got plenty of folks that fall into that category.

['stache 21816]

I thought Guyger would walk, glad to be proven wrong, though the sentence was too light and the post-trial shinanigans were really off-putting. But in this case, he doesn't even have a "mistake of fact" defense. Didn't announce, stalked around the yard, and shot within a split second. This is open and shut. If the DA takes a dive or if a jury acquits, I might drive down to help burn down the town.

[atomheartbevo 89675]

3 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

While we're at it, can somebody clarify the distinction between a clip and a magazine? 

All you need to know is that they are two words that are used together to easily troll the shit out of a lot of people.

[lemonlime 5503]

4 hours ago, 4th and 5 said:

From the defense perspective, what I see from the video

230am, dark, is it a dicey neighborhood? I don’t know, I’ve never been there but crime rate has to be considered, like if there have been recent home burglaries

House not secure, door open, storm door closed. Lights in but no one appears to be present  

general clutter around the exterior of the house, lawn equipment scattered about, maybe suggesting theft or burglary

and the thing that bothers me the most, is when you look in the home thru the door, there is shit scattered about, all over the floor, making it look like there might have been a struggle within the home, suggesting a burglary, aggravated robbery, sexual assault or murder.

i can see why the cop was scared

Thanks for this perspective.  I think if this is the defense, it also negates the people who are arguing this has nothing to do with race.  I have a hard time seeing how this defense works in a white, upper middle class suburban neighborhood.

[TwiceHorn 31484]

4 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Once again, the most important thing is that this guy is found guilty of something that prevents him from ever working in law enforcement again for the rest of his life. Nothing will bring the victim back, and society's primary concern should be preventing this from happening again, not necessarily vengeance.

Given the current state of police work in this country, though, I am willing to support sentences that might be "too long" for a guy that was just a scared pussy in order for there to be a deterrent effect on other officers. The idea of sentences as deterrents is oversold in most cases, but I really do believe there needs to be a critical number of officers convicted of and sentenced to prison for murder (like Guyger) or manslaughter (possibly this guy if he says it was an accident because he was a scared pussy with terrible trigger discipline) so that police nationwide realize that they don't have carte blanche to kill people anymore.

Good post.  I agree about disqualifying these types as LEO, as that community, among its other defects, seems to be waaay too forgiving of professional errors and omissions that seriously call into question fitness for the job.

I also wonder if homicide convictions are a ham-handed way of exacting professional discipline, at least in the context of the above sentence (setting aside for the moment that they actually commit homicide).

Finally, I think you are right about deterrent effect for the LEO community.  Unlike most criminal types, you know they are watching these cases like hawks, so this is probably an effective way to send the message that society is fed up with this.  Also, I think a spate of convictions with serious consequences is probably a better solution than trying to legislate something that has unforeseen effects.

[Reagan1k 3024]

23 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

I know the point you are making is accurate, but back before local cops were tacticool, you’d be hard pressed to find a LEO on a bigger power trip than a raccoon ranger.  I’ve had as many bad experiences as I have had good, and I don’t break game laws.  Iirc, they are killed in line of duty much more often than your average street patrol LEO. 

I don't disagree with the fact that some GWs can be on a power trip when it comes to personal interactions and enforcing on infractions, but even with that, the comparison of outcomes vs. the persona portrayed is what is interesting to me....

On a percentage basis, which group encounters armed people more often and in typically compromising positions?

Which group has a statistically higher likelihood of being killed/shot/assaulted in the line of duty?

Which group is actually involved in more shootings of civilians based on a percentage of encounters?

And..... were one to view it in a vacuum with no prior knowledge of the above, which group would "APPEAR" to have the more dangerous job if one simply looked at their dress and organizational attitude / propaganda?

 

[TwiceHorn 31484]

24 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Thanks for this perspective.  I think if this is the defense, it also negates the people who are arguing this has nothing to do with race.  I have a hard time seeing how this defense works in a white, upper middle class suburban neighborhood.

For arguments' sake, you can take race out of it.  This neighborhood (where it happened) has a high crime rate.  Rivercrest or Tanglewood (affluent, mostly white hoods) have almost zero crime rate.

For reference, here's a crime map.  Generally speaking, FWs worst hoods are to the southeast of downtown, and its best are due west of downtown.  https://www.crimemapping.com/map/agency/128  This occurred on Allen Avenue, which runs parallel to 30, a couple of major streets south of it on either side of 35.

Edited October 16, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[fattyflattie 4639]

7 minutes ago, Reagan1k said:

I don't disagree with the fact that some GWs can be on a power trip when it comes to personal interactions and enforcing on infractions, but even with that, the comparison of outcomes vs. the persona portrayed is what is interesting to me....

On a percentage basis, which group encounters armed people more often and in typically compromising positions?

Which group has a statistically higher likelihood of being killed/shot/assaulted in the line of duty?

Which group is actually involved in more shootings of civilians based on a percentage of encounters?

And..... were one to view it in a vacuum with no prior knowledge of the above, which group would "APPEAR" to have the more dangerous job if one simply looked at their dress and organizational attitude / propaganda?

 

Without a doubt.  I’ve just dealt with more of them than other LEO, so I’m certain my perspective is off. Tbh, the last 10 or so encounters have been positive.  Their job is based on constantly trying to find an issue, which we discourage from other types of LEO. Irritating for the law abiding, but yeah, chasing down people breaking the law with high powered rifles has to leave one apprehensive.  They seem to be more “hand picked” than your typical LEO, so I’m sure that has a lot to do with it.  Sort of like State Troopers. Educated, etc.  
 

A month or so ago I was watching a YouTube vid about a guy from Dubai who flys his Lambo to Canada and drives up and down the US/Canada for fun. He is pulled over constantly, and records the interactions. He’s trolling in sort, but is well mannered and really has his shit together wrt paperwork, local laws, etc.  Anyhow, the difference between the cops in the US and Canada is astonishing. At one point he tells the Canadian officer he’s going to reach for his license, and the office replies, “Don’t worry, you are in Canada, not the US. You are safe”.    Our police are rapidly becoming a joke, even to other counties.  

[LongestHorn 759]

Was pulled over yesterday and after bringing my car to a complete stop, I turned it off, put my right hand up through the sunroof (humblebrag) and my left hand out the open drivers window.  

He asked for my DL and before moving, I told him I did not have any weapons in the car, I was not a threat, and that with his permission, I was going to move my hands and did not want to scare him into shooting me.

I could tell he was both happy and disgusted by my request not to be murdered.  

This is where we are.  Fuck the police.

[crash_davis 23113]

13 minutes ago, LongestHorn said:

Was pulled over yesterday and after bringing my car to a complete stop, I turned it off, put my right hand up through the sunroof (humblebrag) and my left hand out the open drivers window.  

He asked for my DL and before moving, I told him I did not have any weapons in the car, I was not a threat, and that with his permission, I was going to move my hands and did not want to scare him into shooting me.

I could tell he was both happy and disgusted by my request not to be murdered.  

This is where we are.  Fuck the police.

lulz.  that's funny shit.  i don't think you got out of the ticket.

[LongestHorn 759]

I did not.

[Steel Shank 9425]

As a rule of thumb, when I'm on the golf course getting shot at by a game warden, I call "time out" and ask what kind of gun he's using because it really makes a difference. Seriously.

[hundredTT 578]

8 hours ago, 4th and 5 said:

I said from a defense perspective

i think this cop clearly fucked up, but I’m not inclined to join the knee jerks here without considering all the facts. 

I’m just pointing out things that I think went to the cop’s state of mind at the time ...and what you might see argued in court

Bwhahahahahahaha 'cops state of mind'. Fuck attorney's too, second biggest pieces of shit next to cops. Having been a first responder in the past, you have to assume every situation you go into will be unsafe.  "Low Light" and "shit scattered around" is the name of the fucking job and no excuse whatsoever. About every case I investigated dealt with those conditions, and much worse usually. At least these people didn't have any pets running around, because this fuckstick would have killed them as well, and I'm sure would have said they were a threat to his life.   Fuck what this twats defense argues in court, he should be given life. Thank God he didn't kill the kid as well. Maybe if police see life-sentences handed out, they will think twice before murdering people. As of now,  these low sentences and sometimes no sentencing at all will do jackshit to change anything. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by hundredTT

[Guest Lobo]

8 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

While we're at it, can somebody clarify the distinction between a clip and a magazine? Venn diagram might be useful.

 

 

I think of the Seinfeld episode where they are moving the Frogger machine and the Russian thief, when asked about the AC outlets, “you mean, the holes?”

clip?  Magazine?

 Nah...the bullet pouch 

[Zepol87 9186]

50 minutes ago, hundredTT said:

Bwhahahahahahaha 'cops state of mind'. Fuck attorney's too, second biggest pieces of shit next to cops. Having been a first responder in the past, you have to assume every situation you go into will be unsafe.  "Low Light" and "shit scattered around" is the name of the fucking job and no excuse whatsoever. About every case I investigated dealt with those conditions, and much worse usually. At least these people didn't have any pets running around, because this fuckstick would have killed them as well, and I'm sure would have said they were a threat to his life.   Fuck what this twats defense argues in court, he should be given life. Thank God he didn't kill the kid as well. Maybe if police see life-sentences handed out, they will think twice before murdering people. As of now,  these low sentences and sometimes no sentencing at all will do jackshit to change anything. 

Body cam was dark and he was scared of stuff in the yard. Leave him alone. Fuck everyone that is just "pointing" stuff from a defense perspective. Low light from a body cam isn't the same as his fucking eyes, he was in a black neighborhood and a pussy. Demographics were definitely a factor in this. 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Zepol87

[tbone_ 14126]

I stand corrected. Please enlighten us as to the pros/cons of each (AR15 vs M4) as they specifically pertain to golfers. Golfers on a golf course, playing golf, drinking beer. Unarmed white boys. Lockhart, TX.

Correct me if I’m wrong Sandy, but if I kill all the golfers they’ll lock me up and throw away the key.

[SameSame 1704]

If it was so scary and threatening around that house why wasn't the other cop shooting in the house as well?

She must be a really terrible cop.

[naija 2854]

Well, remember the Jean thread where the men were actually arguing that a male cop wouldn’t have shot him? Good times.

[Vic Mackey 47041]

10 hours ago, 4th and 5 said:

I said from a defense perspective

i think this cop clearly fucked up, but I’m not inclined to join the knee jerks here without considering all the facts. 

I’m just pointing out things that I think went to the cop’s state of mind at the time ...and what you might see argued in court

So Ft Worth decides to put a piece of shit who is scared of the dark and stuff on the ground on the streets, give him a gun and tell him to go patrol? Seems awesome.

I mean seriously, stuff on the ground? Some people keep their house messy. Big deal. A door open? Fucking announce yourself and let your presence be known and say you have the house surrounded. 99% of criminals do not want to shoot a cop. Cops have the upper hand so much it isn't even funny. Kill a drug dealer or street guy? You can get by with light punishment in many cases. Kill a cop? They will fucking hang you. They will try and run away or maybe even wrestle around with you to try and get away but they don't want to kill them.

Let's say there were robbers in the house. What the fuck do you think sneaking around a house with guns and a flashlight and not even telling who you are going to do? You are putting your own life in danger doing that shit. He's lucky she didn't blast him away thinking he was some crook trying to break in. But it would have been better had she did it. She'd still be alive today. But we all know the 2nd amendment supporters would not be trumping that as a win, though and we all know why.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Vic Mackey

[Deej 76797]

Keep your shit tidy, otherwise it's just one more excuse for the cops to kill you.

[deft 6850]

Did you get better?

[huge 3793]

GOPHERS YOU IDIOT

[Brian Fantana 6689]

On 10/15/2019 at 3:20 PM, immortal13 said:

No, actually I'm quite aware and I'm sure you would know that if you read my posts. I'm just saying in this incident there is no reason to believe it was racially motivated, especially given the fact that he fired almost immediately after he saw someone in the window. 

I'm just gonna diplomatically state that I have serious doubts that the officer in question would be sneaking around the house with his gun drawn in a white neighborhood, so there's that.

[Zepol87 9186]

7 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm just gonna diplomatically state that I have serious doubts that the officer in question would be sneaking around the house with his gun drawn in a white neighborhood, so there's that.

Yep. No one is saying he shot her cause she is black. I am saying that he got out of his car scared like a little bitch cause he was in a black neighborhood, I also believe most cops are pussies in this way. 

['stache 21816]

15 hours ago, Zepol87 said:

Body cam was dark and he was scared of stuff in the yard. Leave him alone. Fuck everyone that is just "pointing" stuff from a defense perspective. Low light from a body cam isn't the same as his fucking eyes, he was in a black neighborhood and a pussy. Demographics were definitely a factor in this. 

None of that overcomes the fact that hr never just went to the door to announce himself and why he was there. "Miss Jefferson, this is the Fort Worth Police, your neighbor called in a concern about your safety, are you here? Is everything OK?"

She had every right to be in her home, and if she had a gun in her hand, she had every right to protect herself from unannounced people stalking around her yard. I don't practice criminal law, but there probably is a way that he doesn't even get to make a self-defense argument, because his life was not in danger, and even if he thought it was, it was based on his own criminal conduct of trespassing (cops don't get to do that without probable cause, which was completely lacking here based on a call for a welfare check).

Edited October 17, 2019 by 'stache

[Zepol87 9186]

Oh for sure. No reason for not doing that at all. Fuck him 

[George 492]

So has this gone, or will it go before the grand jury?  With the claims of her having a weapon and now them saying he received the call as a potential break in (not a welfare check) i can see this dude getting no-billed.

[PilotsError 2287]

So I heard on the radio report is she pointed a gun at him through the window.  I'm driving, is that accurate?

[Gene Parmesan 4007]

10 minutes ago, PilotsError said:

So I heard on the radio report is she pointed a gun at him through the window.  I'm driving, is that accurate?

It is according to the nephews statement to police.

[El Diablo 4232]

So she COULD have shot him, but didn't? Lady had more discipline than the cop.

[PilotsError 2287]

Sounds like I'm behind.  Thanks everyone.

[BBQ2Bayou 807]

Officer Ginger and Sex Cop now in the Surly lexicon. 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

dp

Edited October 17, 2019 by Brian Fantana

[Brian Fantana 6689]

34 minutes ago, PilotsError said:

So I heard on the radio report is she pointed a gun at him through the window.  I'm driving, is that accurate?

This does not matter. He was effectively trespassing and had not announced himself as a police officer or otherwise.

[HRSchenker 2268]

21 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

So she COULD have shot him, but didn't? Lady had more discipline than the cop.

She shoots and kills him. What happens next? She either gets shot up by his partner or FWPD sends in the robot to blow her up. 

['stache 21816]

11 minutes ago, HRSchenker said:

She shoots and kills him. What happens next? She either gets shot up by his partner or FWPD sends in the robot to blow her up. 

And if she survived, she'd be tried, convicted, and given the death penalty. We know who does and who doesn't have 2nd amendment rights.

Edited October 17, 2019 by 'stache

[Vic Mackey 47041]

[Zepol87 9186]

Bitch ass FWPD should pay for it

[Jkwellborn 6702]

This does not matter. He was effectively trespassing and had not announced himself as a police officer or otherwise.

You keep telling yourself that. If she had shot and killed him, or probably even shot at him, her and the child would most likely be dead at this point.

[hopkinsnhorns 533]

3 hours ago, Gene Parmesan said:

It is according to the 8 year old nephews statement to police.

Added a critical detail.  Who knows how he was coached to arrive at that piece of information...

[Gene Parmesan 4007]

Just now, hopkinsnhorns said:

Added a critical detail.  Who knows how he was coached to arrive at that piece of information...

That's fair.  I defer to the lawdogs who said the interview would have been recorded for potential shenanigans.

[Zepol87 9186]

39 minutes ago, hopkinsnhorns said:

Added a critical detail.  Who knows how he was coached to arrive at that piece of information...

Yep, have 0 faith that this was by the book

[Vic Mackey 47041]

On 10/17/2019 at 4:41 PM, Zepol87 said:

Yep, have 0 faith that this was by the book

Said that the second I saw that. Let's see the entire interaction with that kid. We all know police can get false confessions from grown ass adults. Piece of cake to coerce a kid to say what you want them to. That little kid saying that sounds too convenient for me.

[Vic Mackey 47041]

Reading through some comments on Facebook, there are people who are saying that the neighbor called it in as a welfare check. But the dispatcher relayed it to the cops as an open structure call. And some said in that instance, their presence does not need to be known and that is why they parked out of sight down the street. Is this fucker going to skate on that information? Does the dispatcher face any consequence besides termination for not accurately relaying the information? I am sensing that is going to be his out.

Probably already has been discussed though but I lost track of all the replies.