IJN Kaga (sunk at Midway) found by RV/Petrel

[Chad Fuck 17713]

They've done it again:

 

[TwiceHorn 31516]

Always thought those converted-battleship Japanese carriers were weird-looking.

In 1930, launching relatively STOL biplanes.

In WWII trim, with extended flight deck.

That downturned funnel always kind of freaked me out.

[Chad Fuck 17713]

The Japanese had their own way of doing things, but it seemed to work pretty well for them.  

Those first few years of carrier development were weird for everyone.

[TwiceHorn 31516]

True enough.  Compare her contemporary CV-2, also a converted battle cruiser.

A much more graceful vessel, imo.

[Player 4575]

They obviously worked, but damned if those Japanese carriers don't look like they were slapped together by the cougar high scaffolding crew. 

[Shoxthemonkey 1982]

The slideshow cycled before I could get my head around "Papahanaumokuakea"

I am fascinated whenever they release the pictures of their latest find.

[Chad Fuck 17713]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

True enough.  Compare her contemporary CV-2, also a converted battle cruiser.

A much more graceful vessel, imo.

Another contemporary, Langley (CV-1).  You can see where the Japanese were coming from.  Granted, it was a converted auxiliary rather than battle cruiser, but still.  

Or HMS Argus, the first "true" carrier (capable of launching and recovering).  They're both pretty similar to Kaga and other carriers of early 20s vintage. 

 

No doubt Lexington was a much prettier profile.

[TwiceHorn 31516]

Speaking of the funnel, look at that 1930 pic.  That long tube with a giant circular opening is the funnel.  Wild.

Also, all three of those flat surfaces were operational flight decks, although the middle one was damn near useless.

Wikipedia has a pretty good article on the Kaga, lots of pix.

This all reminded me that many of the large US warships launched in the 10's and 20's were electric drive.

[RPM 26333]

The IJN designs always baffled me. But them I'm baffled by Japanese writing. It works, I just don't understand why.

[TwiceHorn 31516]

2 hours ago, RPM said:

The IJN designs always baffled me. But them I'm baffled by Japanese writing. It works, I just don't understand why.

In addition to some of the oddities like the funnel, I always thought the open scaffolding supporting the flight deck was odd.

But then you could argue that shells and bombs could pass through, which was the thinking with the cage masts of USS Arizona and ships of that era.  But that thinking proved faulty.  Also, by the time Argus made it to WWII, the scaffolding seen above was mostly enclosed:

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

It really seems like we are in an unprecedented age of finding old ship wrecks. Seems like once a month there is news of a new ship wreck discovery. Pretty soon there won't be much left to look for and I guess they will have to do something else with all this new fancy equipment.

[atomheartbevo 89771]

Some of those old carriers looked like they had a high center-of-gravity.  I mean, I know they used lots of scaffolding, wooden flight decks, etc., and that there was a lot of heavy shit below the waterline, but still, they look like they could make a turn just a little too fast and everything is going down.

[RPM 26333]

30 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Some of those old carriers looked like they had a high center-of-gravity.  

I think you underestimate the weight of the ship below the waterline. The "O" decks were most;y hollow.

[NorthLoop 14222]

I've read a lot about Midway before and seen plenty of History Channel shows, but I decided in the wake of Pearl Harbor 2: Midway Boogaloo coming out, that I would deep dive again. Turns out we were lucky as fuck in several aspects of Midway and if not for a lot of crazy bounces, shit could've gone a much different way in the entire Pacific. 

Also I never knew about how we straight up assassinated Yamamoto a year later by tracking his itinerary and shooting down his personal plane. I'd watch a movie about that. 

[TwiceHorn 31516]

47 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Some of those old carriers looked like they had a high center-of-gravity.  I mean, I know they used lots of scaffolding, wooden flight decks, etc., and that there was a lot of heavy shit below the waterline, but still, they look like they could make a turn just a little too fast and everything is going down.

Yeah, may not have actually been the case, but the sheer height of the flight deck above the gunwales of the Kaga (way higher than Langley or Argus) is strange and top heavy looking.

My first impression of Kaga and Akagi was from either an illustrated book on Midway or maybe a model box.  Something like this that really exaggerates it:

[atomheartbevo 89771]

9 hours ago, NorthLoop said:

I've read a lot about Midway before and seen plenty of History Channel shows, but I decided in the wake of Pearl Harbor 2: Midway Boogaloo coming out, that I would deep dive again. Turns out we were lucky as fuck in several aspects of Midway and if not for a lot of crazy bounces, shit could've gone a much different way in the entire Pacific. 

Also I never knew about how we straight up assassinated Yamamoto a year later by tracking his itinerary and shooting down his personal plane. I'd watch a movie about that. 

I’d like to see a movie about Charles Lindbergh’s combat missions in the Pacific, both with the Marines in F4Us,, and with the Army in  P-38s.  Dude was in his 40s and outflying guys half his age.  

[ROFL BOX 6649]

Some of those old carriers looked like they had a high center-of-gravity.  I mean, I know they used lots of scaffolding, wooden flight decks, etc., and that there was a lot of heavy shit below the waterline, but still, they look like they could make a turn just a little too fast and everything is going down.

https://images.app.goo.gl/jmUrxD7b8nyoYe6U9

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[ROFL BOX 6649]

On 10/18/2019 at 10:16 PM, atomheartbevo said:

Some of those old carriers looked like they had a high center-of-gravity.  I mean, I know they used lots of scaffolding, wooden flight decks, etc., and that there was a lot of heavy shit below the waterline, but still, they look like they could make a turn just a little too fast and everything is going down.

(not from my phone this time for you lazy shits)

[Chad Fuck 17713]

^Perfect.

Guess what y'all?  Akagi:

https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=rv petrel&epa=SEARCH_BOX

 

Also, regarding the top-heaviness of Japanese vessels, that's a real thing.  They were trying to avoid the Washington treaty tonnage limits.  Check these out for the deep dive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_torpedo_boat_Tomozuru#The_Tomozuru_Incident

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Ryūjō

[Chad Fuck 17713]

Pre-war weird-ass Akagi with three flight decks and bizarre funnels emphasized:

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

On 10/18/2019 at 11:38 AM, Chad Fuck said:

The Japanese had their own way of doing things, but it seemed to work pretty well for them.  

Those first few years of carrier development were weird for everyone.

I disagree. (SEE:  WWII)

[GreenspointTexas 9662]

And father of five....

[Pato del Muerto 52552]

5346 meters is no bullshit. 

[Chad Fuck 17713]

18 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

5346 meters is no bullshit. 

No sir.  That's a loooong way down.

[vicerous 169]

Recommend Shattered Sword for anyone into Midway in the slightest. Outstanding read that goes into every little detail and corrects a lot of misconceptions I had.

 

 

 

 

 

[AUS-97HORN 11812]

On 10/18/2019 at 11:05 PM, NorthLoop said:

Also I never knew about how we straight up assassinated Yamamoto a year later by tracking his itinerary and shooting down his personal plane. I'd watch a movie about that. 

The more interesting aspect of that raid is we had to make it look like a totally random coincidence that the US started straffing/ bombing  Bougainville the day Yamamoto was visiting, so we had to continue the early morning P38 missions for something like 6-8 more weeks after that attack. 

Those guys were sent out every morning on a mission that wasnt going to accomplish much because A) the Japanese were now on alert to look out for the possible attacks, B) the Japanese in the area were fucking furious that they had allowed their leader to be killed, losing face, and just attacking anything they could to retaliate and C), other than a few visible airfields, there really wasnt much to attack on those missions- so the pilots were basically sent out to strafe the airfields and get shot at for weeks straight

[BabaYaga 15304]

On 10/18/2019 at 11:05 PM, NorthLoop said:

Also I never knew about how we straight up assassinated Yamamoto a year later by tracking his itinerary and shooting down his personal plane. I'd watch a movie about that. 

Piece of his plane (in theory) @ the Nimitz museum in Fredericksburg

Museum

[TwiceHorn 31516]

On 10/21/2019 at 9:32 AM, Chad Fuck said:

Pre-war weird-ass Akagi with three flight decks and bizarre funnels emphasized:

Interdasting.  That's about halfway between the two I posted.  The main flight deck hadn't been extended, but the super-funky tube funnel replaced by the ultra-funky funnel.

[ImissWallyPryor 9046]

On 10/21/2019 at 9:31 AM, Chad Fuck said:

Guess what y'all?  Hope Solo:

[SuperSport 1333]

On 10/18/2019 at 8:53 PM, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

It really seems like we are in an unprecedented age of finding old ship wrecks. Seems like once a month there is news of a new ship wreck discovery. Pretty soon there won't be much left to look for and I guess they will have to do something else with all this new fancy equipment.

MH370 laughs at you.

[Chad Fuck 17713]

1 hour ago, SuperSport said:

MH370 laughs at you.

Yup.  Kinda drifting here but...

Quote

Massive project aims to map the entire ocean floor

Quote

A $3 billion project backed by the UN was launched in 2017 to map the Earth’s sea floor. According to experts leading the Seabed 2030 campaign, only nine percent of ocean floor has been mapped in high definition to date.

https://www.earth.com/news/map-ocean-floor/

[El Diablo 4232]

Thread pictures reminded me of this tub. Used to see her when we'd inchop and outchop to/from the Med.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_aircraft_carrier_Dédalo

[Chad Fuck 17713]

13 hours ago, El Diablo said:

Thread pictures reminded me of this tub. Used to see her when we'd inchop and outchop to/from the Med.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_aircraft_carrier_Dédalo

Otherwise known as USS Cabot, the last of the light carriers.  Couldn't find anyone to take her as a museum, so they had to scrap her.  

[El Diablo 4232]

28 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

Otherwise known as USS Cabot, the last of the light carriers.  Couldn't find anyone to take her as a museum, so they had to scrap her.  

Kinda weird, I spent some time on oilers that were almost the same age but always thought at the time that that carrier was MUCH older. Not so much after all. 

[Chad Fuck 17713]

And another one.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/05/us/uss-johnston.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

 

Quote

U.S. Navy Destroyer Sunk in World War II Is Found 20,000 Feet Under the Sea

Researchers say they believe the debris field off the Philippines is from the U.S.S. Johnston DD-557, which played a pivotal role in the Battle of Leyte Gulf.

[AUS-97HORN 11812]

Johnston and her crew  may have honestly saved upwards of 10,000 American lives.   If the Japanese Center fleet had gotten to the Leyte landing areas, they would have been able to bombard the beaches / captured airfields with impunity for probably a full day.   Americans would have had almost  zero cover to jump into and avoid the shells.   Easily 10k + could have been killed.  The Johnston's Captain Evans and all his men absolutely deserved the CMOH he was awarded posthumously.

It took major balls for a fucking destroyer to attack cruisers and battleships basically by themselves.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21914]

The Johnston and her little task force were put in an impossible situation because Halsey acted stupidly 

[Kyrie Eleison 9312]

On 10/22/2019 at 7:44 AM, AUS-97HORN said:

The more interesting aspect of that raid is we had to make it look like a totally random coincidence that the US started straffing/ bombing  Bougainville the day Yamamoto was visiting, so we had to continue the early morning P38 missions for something like 6-8 more weeks after that attack. 

Those guys were sent out every morning on a mission that wasnt going to accomplish much because A) the Japanese were now on alert to look out for the possible attacks, B) the Japanese in the area were fucking furious that they had allowed their leader to be killed, losing face, and just attacking anything they could to retaliate and C), other than a few visible airfields, there really wasnt much to attack on those missions- so the pilots were basically sent out to strafe the airfields and get shot at for weeks straight

there's a ton of footage of the Bougainville attacks here...

https://www.criticalpast.com/

and btw, it was the Lightning that was primary aircraft doing the raids, it was the Corsair...and the squadron was Black Sheep.

[Macanudo 13005]

If you have not read Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors by James Hornfischer you need to.  It's about Leyte Gulf and paints the crew of the Johnston and  the other DDE and CVE crews as the bad asses that they were. 

[AUinHsv 579]

5 hours ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

The Johnston and her little task force were put in an impossible situation because Halsey acted stupidly 

Not to be that guy but Halsey did have orders that allowed him to act that way. A lot blame to go around - King for allowing split commands where Halsey and Kincaid each thought the other had Leyte, Nimitz for not specifically telling Halsey in his orders that he was to protect the landings and Halsey for ignoring his junior admirals who tried to tell him (this part is interesting because some historians have said that Halsey's staff was responsible and had not shown him much of the information that was received that indicated wild goose chase) it was a wild goose chase. Again, however, his orders said if the main Japanese fleet shows up than it is the target.

Also as mentioned, Last Stand is outstanding.

[pantone159 719]

12 minutes ago, AUinHsv said:

his orders said if the main Japanese fleet shows up than it is the target.

Well, the main Japanese fleet DID show up, and got to engage Taffy 3 cuz Halsey had run off on a wild goose chase. So there is that...

 

[NeverMarryAStripper 21914]

[AUinHsv 579]

21 hours ago, pantone159 said:

Well, the main Japanese fleet DID show up, and got to engage Taffy 3 cuz Halsey had run off on a wild goose chase. So there is that...

 

No argument that he was faked out. However any US Admiral would have considered the carrier fleet a main target. The issue I have with this is the lack of common sense by both Halsey and Kincaid.  As background the battleship force had been attacked the day before. Halsey relied on incorrect reports from his pilots that it was decimated. In reality it made a U turn and looked like it was retiring and then made another U turn and came back. Kincaid was generally responsible for searching since he had responsibility for the landings. His search efforts did not figure out the second U turn. Halsey or probably his staff didn't examine the pilot's reports very well to determine how much was left of the fleet or search themselves. Even Halsey said that a split command where cooperation replaces orders is a disaster. Halsey and Kincaid were trying to figure out what each would do by eavesdropping on their radio messages instead of talking to each other. My personal opinion, again, is that Halsey's staff deserves a lot of scrutiny here. I would love to see the papers of his Chief of Staff (Adm Carney) but searching doesn't find them. I know Carney had them sealed until at least the early 70's for some reason.

[AUS-97HORN 11812]

IJN Akagi was confirmed as being found 2 days ago (the wreck was discovered in 2019, but not identified)

 

2nd Japanese carrier hit during the Battle of Midway, 3rd to sink, she was skuttled the next day.

 

[Gatorubet 30278]

On 10/19/2019 at 8:24 AM, atomheartbevo said:

I’d like to see a movie about Charles Lindbergh’s combat missions in the Pacific, both with the Marines in F4Us,, and with the Army in  P-38s.  Dude was in his 40s and outflying guys half his age.  

After sucking Hitler’s dick for so long and opposing his governments actions in Lend Lease and supporting Britain, I totally support FDR giving him the finger and telling him he wasn’t needed. That said, his racial views did not have a problem for him fighting the Japanese, so I’m glad he did what he could in the Pacific, even without proper authorization.

But really, fuck that guy. 

[BabaYaga 15304]

Billionaires and armchair submarine builders....