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Posted

AG Bill Barr spoke at Notre Dame last week, and as one might expect, he sermonized at length about the modern "attack on religion".  Jeffrey Toobin reacts:

Poor evangelicals

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Posted

I think Barr is weaponizing religion to further draw distinctions between the right and the left.

As a liberal Christian, I find that not only disgusting but infuriating.

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Posted (edited)

One might think ND, although church-affiliated, would not be an ideal place to proselytize about the plight of evangelicals.

Although the backlash against shithead-Christians is going to be bad for the Christian-Christians.

Edited by TwiceHorn
Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 6:03 PM, TwiceHorn said:

One might think ND, although church-affiliated, would not be an ideal place to proselytize about the plight of evangelicals.

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I agree, although I don't think the Catholics have sole claim to the moral high ground, either.

I recently saw a Pew report about the shrinking political class in America.  It mirrors the slow erosion of the white majority, if a decade or two behind, and it has certain groups terrified.

Posted

And, I suppose we have to admit that there is a somewhat unfounded hostility toward all religion based almost solely on the transgressions of evangelicals.

If you don't want to admit that most Methodists and Episcopalians are ok. then think of the Buddhists or the Unitarians, or the Rosicrucians ffs.

Posted (edited)

way past time to tax churches - and all religious institutions. I don't care how much charity they provide of if they're one of the good actors. we have shown generation after generation that politics and religion cannot be inherently separated in this country, so might as well make the marriage official. Pastor Osteen can preach whatever the fuck he wants from the pulpit, as long as 25% of that that 10% goes back to the people.

and I patently reject the idea that religion is under attack in this country. 

Edited by Longhorn_Fan68
  • Like 5
Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 6:11 PM, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

way past time to tax churches - and all religious institutions. I don't care how much charity they provide of if they're one of the good actors. we have shown generation after generation that politics and religion cannot be inherently separated in this country, so might as well make the marriage official. Pastor Osteen can preach whatever the fuck he wants from the pulpit, as long as 25% of that that 10% goes back to the people.

and I patently reject the idea that religion is under attack in this country. 

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Bahaha.  See.

Posted

Organized religion is under Attack in this country.  And finally so.  All our lies...are at an end 

Posted

What exactly do you plan to tax churches on? Donations? "Profit" after expenses?  What measure do you plan to use.  I mean, this is a shitty political stance to take, but if you want to go there flesh out the actual approach to be used and what basis you are going to tax on. 

Posted

Well we can start with the fact that a locally run small business can’t avoid taxes by saying, “we gotta kick up to the regional holding Corp who then kicks up to the international conglomerate.  Therefore we magically all get a deduction for that dollar amount, plus the baked in administrative costs.   So actually you owe us a few bucks, here’s an envelope.   Thanks”

catholics think it’s a wild fucking coincidence that the cosa nostra finance model is based exactly on that of their home church   

 

 

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 6:36 PM, Anastasis said:

What exactly do you plan to tax churches on? Donations? "Profit" after expenses?  What measure do you plan to use.  I mean, this is a shitty political stance to take, but if you want to go there flesh out the actual approach to be used and what basis you are going to tax on. 

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.001 cent per word for each Sermon sounds about right.

 

Get to the point already.

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Posted (edited)

There are two main ways "religion" avoids taxation.  There is an exemption in most states' codes for property taxes (and income taxes, if any).  And, for federal income taxation, they are 501(c)(3) exempt.  Many organizations other than churches are 501(c)(3) exempt.

Eliminating 501(c)(3) for churches (rather than everything) would be legally problematic.  Eliminating it altogether would be problematic problematic.

Eliminating the property tax exemption would probably be most immediately crippling to legitimate churches.

Rigorously enforcing the proscriptions of 501(c)(3) on political activity and individual benefit, across the board, would probably be a good thing.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted

Twice, what other organizations get property tax exemptions? I’m legit asking because I don’t know. It seems to me that there is no reason for a church to not pay property taxes but maybe I don’t understand the issue well enough.

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Posted (edited)
  On 10/18/2019 at 7:02 PM, hobbes2702 said:

Twice, what other organizations get property tax exemptions? I’m legit asking because I don’t know. It seems to me that there is no reason for a church to not pay property taxes but maybe I don’t understand the issue well enough.

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It depends on the state, and I didn't know until you asked, but Texas exempts property taxes for all charitable organizations, much like 501(c)(3).  https://comptroller.texas.gov/taxes/property-tax/exemptions/index.php.  Worth noting that while Texas has an exemption specifically for religious organizations and a separate one for charitable ones, there is significant overlap:  a religious organization must also qualify as a charitable organization.

So, again, if a church otherwise qualifies as a charitable organization, denying exemption because it's religious would probably be a problem.

But, again, closer examination of how "chartitable" or "non-profit" any organization is seems like a worthwhile thing to do.

As usual, the IRS has some pretty good info on 501(c)(3) https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exemption-requirements-501c3-organizations

Edited by TwiceHorn
  • Like 1
Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 6:36 PM, Anastasis said:

What exactly do you plan to tax churches on? Donations? "Profit" after expenses?  What measure do you plan to use.  I mean, this is a shitty political stance to take, but if you want to go there flesh out the actual approach to be used and what basis you are going to tax on. 

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I think they should get an option. You can remain tax free if you make your finances 100 percent publicly available and transparent, and that includes money paid to the preacher. 

You should also be forced to have this information posted inside your church at the entrance and exits so your people has the opportunity to see where their donations are going. 

That way if you are a legitimate charity operation church then you have nothing to worry about because you get to show how you're helping the community. If you're one of these evengelical megachurch pieces of shit then your game just got blasted. 

  • Like 1
Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 7:14 PM, Junior Miller said:

I think they should get an option. You can remain tax free if you make your finances 100 percent publicly available and transparent, and that includes money paid to the preacher. 

You should also be forced to have this information posted inside your church at the entrance and exits so your people has the opportunity to see where their donations are going. 

That way if you are a legitimate charity operation church then you have nothing to worry about because you get to show how you're helping the community. If you're one of these evengelical megachurch pieces of shit then your game just got blasted. 

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Every church I've ever attended has been pretty transparent with this information.  Once again it's the megs Joel Osteen type churches that ruin the reputation of everyone.  That's a very small percentage of churches.

Even with those churches, is it really those churches who cause the problems or is it the multiple "charities" that the church and pastor have on the side that are the problem?

  • Like 2
Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 6:11 PM, TwiceHorn said:

And, I suppose we have to admit that there is a somewhat unfounded hostility toward all religion based almost solely on the transgressions of evangelicals.

If you don't want to admit that most Methodists and Episcopalians are ok. then think of the Buddhists or the Unitarians, or the Rosicrucians ffs.

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I can't speak for the Methodists, but there was a time when a bunch of Episcopalians wanted to push us towards evangelical shitheadism. Fortunately most of the frozen chosen said "no thank you" and they just left the church. Of course, the ECUSA continues to lose membership at a steady rate.

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 7:14 PM, Junior Miller said:

I think they should get an option. You can remain tax free if you make your finances 100 percent publicly available and transparent, and that includes money paid to the preacher. 

You should also be forced to have this information posted inside your church at the entrance and exits so your people has the opportunity to see where their donations are going. 

That way if you are a legitimate charity operation church then you have nothing to worry about because you get to show how you're helping the community. If you're one of these evengelical megachurch pieces of shit then your game just got blasted. 

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These are all required under the bylaws of my parish.  

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 7:42 PM, softlynow said:

I can't speak for the Methodists, but there was a time when a bunch of Episcopalians wanted to push us towards evangelical shitheadism. Fortunately most of the frozen chosen said "no thank you" and they just left the church. Of course, the ECUSA continues to lose membership at a steady rate.

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That was partially in jest, but those two denominations, among many, are rarely at the forefront of most shitheadism (love it).  There's also a healthy streak of flat out pinko (also jest) liberalism in both denominations, Roman Catholics, as well (birth control and divorce policies and molestation "policy" notwithstanding).

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 7:50 PM, Anastasis said:

These are all required under the bylaws of my parish.  

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Need to be required by US law. 

I'm all for legitimate charity non profits getting tax exemption whether they rattle on about supernatural beings or not. 

I'm not ok with these greedy fuck evangelicals ripping people off for their own benefit and getting the same treatment. 

Posted

The taxation discussion is interesting, if not exactly where I was headed with the thread, but OK.

Would it be legal to tie taxes to the percent of "revenue" that goes to actual charity?

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 8:20 PM, jimmyjazz said:

The taxation discussion is interesting, if not exactly where I was headed with the thread, but OK.

Would it be legal to tie taxes to the percent of "revenue" that goes to actual charity?

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Probably, if you did it for all charities.

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 8:20 PM, jimmyjazz said:

The taxation discussion is interesting, if not exactly where I was headed with the thread, but OK.

Would it be legal to tie taxes to the percent of "revenue" that goes to actual charity?

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I think most agree with ya. Twice do Tax money ever go to a church at all? I wouldn't think so, but I'm just assuming.

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 8:25 PM, workswithseed said:

I think most agree with ya. Twice do Tax money ever go to a church at all? I wouldn't think so, but I'm just assuming.

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I don't know.  Sometimes it does, in the name of some social or charitable program.  Someone usually bitches and it stops.

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 8:22 PM, TwiceHorn said:

Probably, if you did it for all charities.

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The simplest math would be to tax all revenue that doesn't go to charity.  So, strong non-profits that send 90% of the money on would only pay taxes on 10%.

Even then, I'd be willing to waive those taxes.  Automatically adjust income with a 10% (or whatever) deduction and then go from there.

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 7:14 PM, Junior Miller said:

I think they should get an option. You can remain tax free if you make your finances 100 percent publicly available and transparent, and that includes money paid to the preacher. 

You should also be forced to have this information posted inside your church at the entrance and exits so your people has the opportunity to see where their donations are going. 

That way if you are a legitimate charity operation church then you have nothing to worry about because you get to show how you're helping the community. If you're one of these evengelical megachurch pieces of shit then your game just got blasted. 

Expand  

The church I attend has a year-to-date report of contributions and expenditures, as well as a comparison with the annual budget, printed up every month and placed by the door for anyone to pick up. You’re welcome to come get a copy.

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 8:20 PM, jimmyjazz said:

The taxation discussion is interesting, if not exactly where I was headed with the thread, but OK.

Would it be legal to tie taxes to the percent of "revenue" that goes to actual charity?

Expand  

As far as Barr it's the Republican MO to cover up their crimes by claiming victim status wherever they can even find the slightest area to claim it. Since their base is a lot of supernatural believers they're going to utilize that to get them to overlook the the fact that not only are they criminals but they're fucking over the people who vote for them as well. 

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 8:44 PM, formermav43 said:

The church I attend has a year-to-date report of contributions and expenditures, as well as a comparison with the annual budget, printed up every month and placed by the door for anyone to pick up. You’re welcome to come get a copy.

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well in that case under my scenario they would be in compliance with the law and remain tax free and have nothing to worry about. 

Do you think Jeffress or Osteen's church do the same thing?

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 8:49 PM, Junior Miller said:

As far as Barr it's the Republican MO to cover up their crimes by claiming victim status wherever they can even find the slightest area to claim it. Since their base is a lot of supernatural believers they're going to utilize that to get them to overlook the the fact that not only are they criminals but they're fucking over the people who vote for them as well. 

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take it even further, since some people believe in a sky king, they'll probably believe it if you tell them that god told them to break our earthen laws - you know, for Jesus.

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 8:44 PM, formermav43 said:

The church I attend has a year-to-date report of contributions and expenditures, as well as a comparison with the annual budget, printed up every month and placed by the door for anyone to pick up. You’re welcome to come get a copy.

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my company has that too. it's called responsible accounting. do you want a cookie?

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 8:54 PM, SimonBolivar said:

All this talk and y'all don't even mention how this separation hurts our mandate of heaven. 

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dude, don't start. trying to suppress the 10-page rant I have about religion and how it has held us back as a species consistently since the dawn of time. 

  • Like 1
Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 8:53 PM, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

my company has that too. it's called responsible accounting. do you want a cookie?

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Most privately owned companies do not.

Are you trying to prove that there isn't a war on religion?  Or that it's a one-man war comprised of you?  Or just that it's justified because of  . . .  wait for it  . . .  your beliefs.

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 9:16 PM, TwiceHorn said:

Most privately owned companies do not.

Are you trying to prove that there isn't a war on religion?  Or that it's a one-man war comprised of you?  Or just that it's justified because of  . . .  wait for it  . . .  your beliefs.

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I’d hoped he was simply giving away cookies.

Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 9:22 PM, formermav43 said:

I’d hoped he was simply giving away cookies.

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So the Doubletree Hotel chain is now a front for organized religion?  

Posted (edited)
  On 10/18/2019 at 9:16 PM, TwiceHorn said:

Most privately owned companies do not.

Are you trying to prove that there isn't a war on religion?  Or that it's a one-man war comprised of you?  Or just that it's justified because of  . . .  wait for it  . . .  your beliefs.

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what? there's isn't a fucking war on religion. gtfo of here with that shit. if anything there is a war against any religion (or non believers) not called christianity. i don't give two shits what you believe or worship, but keep it out of my laws and my life. there. clear enough for you?

Edited by Longhorn_Fan68
  • Like 1
Posted
  On 10/18/2019 at 9:24 PM, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

what? there's isn't a fucking war on religion. gtfo of here with that shit. if anything there is a war against any religion (or non believers) no called christianity. i don't give two shits what you believe or worship, but keep it out of my laws and my life. there. clear enough for you?

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Were you a Catholic as a child, cause then I can understand.



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