Blurring the line between church and state

[Telegraph_it 3,357]

12 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

It would be beyond super cool if y'all could avoid turning this into an argument about the validity/stupidity of religion.

That is a lot to ask though. Thread was actually going in a somewhat productive direction. By that I mean I was learning something. 

[TwiceHorn 31,449]

Yeah sorry.  But you just knew that a thread about religion, would bring out the haters.

I'm not a fan of bringing religion into politics or vice-versa.  But it can be a difficult line to toe where religion informs (or disinforms as the case may be) strongly held personal beliefs.  Just call them personal beliefs without resorting to religion, either way.

[workswithseed 2,101]

15 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah sorry.  But you just knew that a thread about religion, would bring out the haters.

I'm not a fan of bringing religion into politics or vice-versa.  But it can be a difficult line to toe where religion informs (or disinforms as the case may be) strongly held personal beliefs.  Just call them personal beliefs without resorting to religion, either way.

Personal beliefs and religious beliefs are hard to not to go parallel. 

[Guest Lobo]

Sorry, forgot no Evangelical ever cherry-picked the most translated book in human history to justify something as woefully ignorant as climate change.  

Fun fact---if religion is under attack and your conveniently naive belief set can't dictate the political narrative of the day, let me offer you some cold comfort.  Sunday is officially Late October.  It's going to be 95 degrees the week before Thanksgiving.  And there's Christmas decorations up in every store.  Connect the dots you fucking children. 

[Mole 4,330]

28 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

It would be beyond super cool if y'all could avoid turning this into an argument about the validity/stupidity of religion.

Thought and prayers for that hope. I predict pages 7-20 will be a mix of Axiom of Choice arguing with someone about ontology while a few other drive-by trolls drop bigoted statements about religious people.

As to the OP, the politicization of religion is moving to be fully weaponized. Its only going to get worse with the coming election. I’ve seen cracks among my evangelical friends regarding their support for Trump (founded largely on abortion). These cracks have intensified with the Kurdish situation. Friends of mine who have worked with refugees from the region feel particularly betrayed. The only way to keep them in line and voting R is to amp up the religious identity politics.

The devil is in the details though and some of the articles point have assumptions that aren’t fully founded. In the bakery and similar cases, I don’t see the question as one of church vs state but rather where the line is regarding free expression (a good thing) vs. anti-discrimination statutes (also good). There’s an inherent tension once you acknowledge the validity of religious beliefs that you might not agree with.

[workswithseed 2,101]

8 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Sorry, forgot no Evangelical ever cherry-picked the most translated book in human history to justify something as woefully ignorant as climate change.  

Fun fact---if religion is under attack and your conveniently naive belief set can't dictate the political narrative of the day, let me offer you some cold comfort.  Sunday is officially Late October.  It's going to be 95 degrees the week before Thanksgiving.  And there's Christmas decorations up in every store.  Connect the dots you fucking children. 

That's just good ol' capitalism. I'm with the Puritans on saying fuck Christmas. I know MIA would also agree with me.

[hobbes2702 13,032]

40 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah sorry.  But you just knew that a thread about religion, would bring out the haters.

I'm not a fan of bringing religion into politics or vice-versa.  But it can be a difficult line to toe where religion informs (or disinforms as the case may be) strongly held personal beliefs.  Just call them personal beliefs without resorting to religion, either way.

As a self proclaimed hater of religion, I appreciate the responses from you and others. 

[TwiceHorn 31,449]

16 minutes ago, Mole said:

Thought and prayers for that hope. I predict pages 7-20 will be a mix of Axiom of Choice arguing with someone about ontology while a few other drive-by trolls drop bigoted statements about religious people.

As to the OP, the politicization of religion is moving to be fully weaponized. Its only going to get worse with the coming election. I’ve seen cracks among my evangelical friends regarding their support for Trump (founded largely on abortion). These cracks have intensified with the Kurdish situation. Friends of mine who have worked with refugees from the region feel particularly betrayed. The only way to keep them in line and voting R is to amp up the religious identity politics.

The devil is in the details though and some of the articles point have assumptions that aren’t fully founded. In the bakery and similar cases, I don’t see the question as one of church vs state but rather where the line is regarding free expression (a good thing) vs. anti-discrimination statutes (also good). There’s an inherent tension once you acknowledge the validity of religious beliefs that you might not agree with.

Very solid post.

I think your penultimate sentence (haha I used it!) might have been what The Clash meant about "cashing in the Bill of Rights."

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,868]

You give us example #267742789 how weaponized religion can be used to dictate our laws and policies and you don't want us to discuss it?

[jimmyjazz 45,898]

3 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

You give us example #267742789 how weaponized religion can be used to dictate our laws and policies and you don't want us to discuss it?

Well, that's not at all what I said, but I'm glad you got your dander up.

There's no need to get into the justification (or lack thereof) for religion.  I think it's fine to accept that religion is important to some people but focus the discussion on those who would claim that the United States is a "Christian nation", etc. and then craft law and policy in that reflected light.

[High Plains Drifter 11,035]

9 hours ago, Anastasis said:

What exactly do you plan to tax churches on? Donations? "Profit" after expenses?  What measure do you plan to use.  I mean, this is a shitty political stance to take, but if you want to go there flesh out the actual approach to be used and what basis you are going to tax on. 

 

A good place to start would be property taxes.

 

[fattyflattie 4,639]

On 10/18/2019 at 2:02 PM, jimmyjazz said:

If Lyle Lovett was the preacher, I'd never miss a service, even though he's an Aggie.

I don’t know man, I go see him a couple times a year and the way I see it, he’s up there preaching.  Especially when playing anything from Pontiac. 

[workswithseed 2,101]

Mole, you might as well said that he would talk about the number 5 a lot 

[Mrs Whiggins 13,050]

This is from two days ago. If you have two minutes, listen to the entire prayer. I have no qualms about the act of prayer. The words one places in prayer are meaningful. Prayers that are meant for more than 'God's ear'  have special meaning and intent. I hold those that seek and hold political office to a higher standard of being aware of the oaths they have taken and that the 'church cannot rule over the state nor can the state rule over the church'. Public expression of one's beliefs is vital to our democracy and I support jimmyjazz discussion of those that may be using the office to sway policy that supports their religious agenda.